Lyr Req: North Sea Holes (Ewan MacColl)

Subject: North Sea Holes... John Doyle?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 08 Mar 02 - 01:05 PM

This John Doyle guy is wicked cool... just discovered him recently...

Must cover North Sea Holes...

Anybody got lyrics out here?

;-)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: North Sea Holes... John Doyle?
From: MMario
Date: 08 Mar 02 - 01:16 PM

In the DT North Sea Holes

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: North Sea Holes... John Doyle?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 08 Mar 02 - 01:22 PM

Ya... opps... sorry... I posted before my search was refined...

This thread could go really...

sorry...

;-)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: North Sea Holes... John Doyle?
From: MMario
Date: 08 Mar 02 - 01:28 PM

Need the tune?

Polish lyrics

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: North Sea Holes... John Doyle?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 08 Mar 02 - 01:36 PM

Nope... got it on a mixed CD MMario...

ta anyway mate...

John Doyle can bite my bum!!

;-)

Subject: RE: DT Attribution & Minor Corrections PermaThread
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 08:45 AM

Susanne, I'm fairly sure that you're wrong about MacColl's 'North sea holes'.


THE ESSENTIAL EWAN MacColl SONGBOOK

Wolfgang

---

Thanks, Wolfgang. You are correct.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: DT Attribution & Minor Corrections PermaThread
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 05:48 PM

??? Maybe I haven't looked closely enough, but I can't find that title or an index of the contents under the link Wolfgang gives. Have you got the book, Wolfgang? And does it give that title? Then, presumably, it must be correct. (Though, to quote Peggy Seeger: "It would seem that despite a great deal of work and much time spent on this songbook that a substantial errata slip is needed. Corrections are coming in thick and fast. Any other mistakes or comments on the accuracy of the material in the book are gratefully received and will be noted here." The 'errata' section following that paragraph contains at least one glaring uncorrected mistake.)

Subject: RE: DT Attribution & Minor Corrections PermaThread
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 08:14 PM

According to Allmusic.com, NORTH SEA HOLES is sung by The Corries on "Bonnet, Belt and Sword," where it is attributed to E. MacColl—and by John Doyle on "Evening Comes Early," where it is attributed to Ewan McColl (sic) and Peggy Seeger.

Also, it says NORTH SEA SHOALS/SWEET MOLLY (a medley, apparently) is performed by Ross Kennedy on "Twisted Fingers," where it is attributed to E. McCall (sic)/Traditional.

However, this Corries discography, put up by a fan, apparently, lists it as NORTH SEA SHOALS.

At Peggy Seeger's web site, there is no complete listing of songs in "The Essential Ewan MacColl Songbook," but several songs are mentioned by name in a review quoted from Dirty Linen, and NORTH SEA HOLES is one of them. There is no mention of NORTH SEA SHOALS.

It seems likely that, even if Dirty Linen had made a mistake, Peggy Seeger would have corrected it before quoting the review on her web site. Therefore, my best guess is, NORTH SEA HOLES is the original title, but the folk process has worked on it, and some people sing it as NORTH SEA SHOALS.

Subject: RE: DT Attribution & Minor Corrections PermaThread
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 08:42 AM

'North sea holes' it is in the MacColl songbook. I'll listen to my CD of the radio ballad 'Singing the fishing' (for which this song was written) next weekend. I hope I can hear the difference between 'shoals' and 'holes'.

BTW, the LP 'McKenna brothers life' also has it as 'holes'.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: DT Attribution & Minor Corrections PermaThread
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 07:56 PM

Jim, I've got the Corries LP, and they give 'North Sea Shoals' as the title, though that's not decisive. Obviously, both titles have been used. I'm looking forward to Wolfgang's further research.

Subject: RE: DT Attribution & Minor Corrections PermaThread
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 12:15 PM

I have it on an LP sung by Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger ('Freeborn man', released 1983) as 'North Sea Holes' both on the record cover and on the record itself.

The renaming must have come later and by other people than MacColl. Just to be sure I have listened to a midi of one of the 'North sea shoals' titled tracks. It is the same song.

The tracklist of the rerelease of the original Singing the fishing Radio ballad doesn't help for it only gives the first lines. North sea holes is distributed on several tracks (2, 6, ...)

The Corries are not consistent: On this Corries discography it says:

BONNET, BELT AND SWORD (1967)            Philips/Phonogram (822 084-1)
                                        Fontana/Phonogram STL 5401
                Also Philips Priceless series PRIMC 67 (822 084-4), with
                title mistakenly given as "Belt, Buckle and Sword"
(Studio recording)
...
North Sea Shoals       (Cassette release has "North Sea Holes" as title)

The Google-test finds 800 odd "North sea holes" and 80 odd "North sea shoals".

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: DT Attribution & Minor Corrections PermaThread
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 05:13 PM

What a mess! :-) Thanks, Wolfgang!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: North Sea Holes (MacColl)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 08:57 PM

Susanne (skw) posted this message in the DTY Attribution thread on 20 October. The discussion got more involved than what's intended for that PermaThread, so I've moved the messages here.
To my mind, it's crystal-clear that the only phrase that makes sense in the lyrics is "North Sea Holes," but my wife reminds me that I have occasionally been proven wrong.
-Joe Offer-

---

Here is the message from Susanne that started it all off:

Thread #49846   Message #1587373
Posted By: Susanne (skw)
20-Oct-05 - 08:19 PM
Thread Name: DT Attribution & Minor Corrections PermaThread
Subject: RE: DT Attribution & Minor Corrections PermaThread

The Yew Tree - uncredited. It was penned by Brian McNeill.

Two strange titles in the DT:

Notwork Southeast - should be Network Southeast

North Sea Holes - should be North Sea Shaols, although I've seen it with the former title on a Bob Fox CD. Doesn't make it right, though.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: North Sea Holes (MacColl)
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 05:52 AM

Have our fellow anonymous posting volunteers nothing better to do than - to impose their personal judgement about where a post should appear upon us whose basic rights - granted by the UN declaration of human rights and by Max - who has invited all of us to contribute as we wish - are violated - on the slippery slope that leads straightway - into the concentration camps?

Thanks Joe.

Wolfgang (all the words in this post before 'Thanks' may be erased or ignored)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: North Sea Holes (MacColl)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 03:44 PM

Right-o, Wolfgang!
The DT Attribution PermaThread is an edited thread that's supposed to provide brief, verified information to Susan of DT so that she can make corrections to the Digital Tradition. But if there's disagreement on an issue, then we need to resolve the question elsewhere.

And on this point, you and I agree that the song is "North Sea Holes," and we have the concurrence of the Essential Ewan MacColl Songbook - but there are those who are not yet completely convinced, so I think the matter warrants further discussion. Can anybody listen to the radio-ballad Singing the Fishing and tell us what you hear? As far as I can tell, the only MacColl recording of the song is on the radio-ballad CD, which I don't have.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: North Sea Holes (MacColl)
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 05:13 PM

Joe, just what would we do without you! (And Wolfgang's set of the Radio Ballads, of course ...)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: North Sea Holes (MacColl)
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Oct 05 - 11:35 AM

You've done well, Joe.

MacColl sings 'holes' on 'Singing the fishing'

There were rare and wonderful occasions when Sam (Larner), or one of the other fishermen, would claim to have known all his life a song which I just had written. When that happened, we knew we had come close to capturing the spirit of the fishing (E. MacColl)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: North Sea Holes (MacColl)
From: GUEST,Auldtimer
Date: 28 Oct 05 - 03:08 PM

The Corries have a version on a video, "Years Must Roll On", with them being being bobed arround the North Sea on a trawer, great fun as is the rest of this video. The song is listed on the video as, "North Sea Shoals". cheers.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: North Sea Holes (MacColl)
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 05:16 PM

Looks like that is definitive, Wolfgang. But what on earth does it mean???

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: North Sea Holes (MacColl)
From: Shields Folk
Date: 30 Oct 05 - 12:11 PM

Speaking as an ex North Sea fisherman I would think it would be Holes (as in Peggy's hole), it's definatly holes on singing the fishing.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: North Sea Holes (MacColl)
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 30 Oct 05 - 05:56 PM

I've heard the name 'Devil's Hole', but what is it meant to convey? Water doesn't have holes, does it?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: North Sea Holes (MacColl)
From: Snuffy
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 08:54 AM

The sea-bed is not uniformly level: there are "holes" where the water is much deeper. The opposite of shoals, where it is shallower. Like valleys and hills on land.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: North Sea Holes (MacColl)
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 02 Nov 05 - 06:00 PM

Thanks, Snuffy. I obviously didn't learn to ask the right questions in school ...

Subject: Chord Req: North Sea Holes
From: Gillies
Date: 08 May 07 - 04:17 AM

Hi

I'm looking for the chords to a couple of songs that John Doyle does (brilliantly by the way) on his album "Evening comes early".
Track one - North Sea Holes
Track two - Blue Diamond Mines

Any help, as usual, would be greatly recieved as we're just about getting to winter down here in Tassie & I need something to accompany the Talisker in getting me through those long winter nights. (Did I get any tears?)

Cheers

Subject: RE: Chord Req: North Sea Holes
From: Cattail
Date: 08 May 07 - 03:25 PM

Hi Gillies

This was taken from the Ewan MacColl, Peggy Seeger Songbook
Published by Oak Publications in 1963.

NOTES:

Written in 1960 as part of the musical narration of BBC's Italia
prize-winning radio folksong documentary, "Singing The Fishing".
The herring fishermen regard themselves, with some justification,
as the 'last of the hunters' and are a distinct breed on their own.



NORTH SEA HOLES

WORDS AND MUSIC BY EWAN MacCOLL



    Dm             C    Dm         C               Dm
Come all you gallant fishermen that plough the stormy sea,

    Am       Dm          Gmaj    Dm
The whole year round on the fishing grounds

CHORUS

       C       Dm            C       Dm
On the Northern Minch and the Nor-way Deeps,

       C         A7          Dm       Am
On the banks and Knolls of the North Sea holes

          Dm      C          Dm
Where the herring shoals are found



It's there you'll find the Norfolk boys and the lads from Peter head,
There's Buckie chiels* and men from Shields,
On the Northern Minch and the Norway Deeps,
On the banks and Knolls of the North Sea holes
Where the herring shoals are found


From Fraserborough and Aberdeen, from Whitby, Yarmouth town,
The fleets away at the break of day
To the Northern Minch and the Norway Deeps,
To the banks and Knolls of the North Sea holes
Where the herring shoals are found


It's off with a boiler full of steam and your engine spic and span,
To fish the grounds the North Sea round,
And fish the Knolls and the North Sea holes
And try your luck at the North Shields Gut
With a catch of a hundred cran*


No need to wait for wind and tide, you're the master of the sea,
Come calm or squall, just shoot and haul
And fill the hold with the fish to be sold
And steam ahead for the curing shed
And the buyers on the Yarmouth quay


Come all you gallant fishermen that sail the stormy sea,
The whole year round on the fishing grounds
On the Northern Minch and the Norway Deeps
On the banks and Knolls and the North Sea holes
Where the herring shoals are found


* Chiels = Men
* Cran   = Measurement of herring


I hope that this is the song you are looking for. Sorry I can't
help you with the other one.

Best wishes

Cattail !

Subject: RE: Chord Req: North Sea Holes
From: Peace
Date: 08 May 07 - 03:31 PM

Midi here.

Subject: RE: Chord Req: North Sea Holes
From: Gillies
Date: 08 May 07 - 07:31 PM

Thanks Cattail & Peace.

A' Ra Best!

Subject: RE: Chord Req: North Sea Holes
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 12:23 AM

[Dm]        , [C], [Dm], [C], [Dm], [C], [Dm]        
        [Am]        , [Dm], [G], [Dm]
        [C], [Dm], [C], [Dm]
        [C], [A7], [Dm], [Am],
        [Dm], [C], [Dm]        

Come [Dm]all ye [C]gallant [Dm]fisher[C]men that [Dm]plough the [C]stormy [Dm]sea,
The [Am]whole year [Dm]round on the [G]fishing [Dm]grounds
On the [C]Northern [Dm]Minch and the [C]Nor-way [Dm]Deeps,
On the [C]banks and [A7]Knolls of the [Dm]North Sea [Am]holes
Where the [Dm]herring [C]shoals are [Dm]found

It's [Dm]there you'll [C]find the [Dm]Norfolk [C]boys and the [Dm]lads from [C]Peter [Dm]head,
There's [Am]Buckie [Dm]chiels* and [G]men from [Dm]Shields,
On the [C]Northern [Dm]Minch and the [C]Nor-way [Dm]Deeps,
On the [C]banks and [A7]Knolls of the [Dm]North Sea [Am]holes
Where the [Dm]herring [C]shoals are [Dm]found

From [Dm]Fraser[C]borough and [Dm]Aber[C]deen, from [Dm]Whitby, [C]Yarmouth [Dm]town,
The [Am]fleets a[Dm]way at the [G]break of [Dm]day
To the [C]Northern [Dm]Minch and the [C]Nor-way [Dm]Deeps,
To the [C]banks and [A7]Knolls of the [Dm]North Sea [Am]holes
Where the [Dm]herring [C]shoals are [Dm]found


It's [Dm]off with a [C]boiler [Dm]full of [C]steam and your [Dm]engine [C]spic and [Dm]span,
To [Am]fish the [Dm]grounds the [G]North Sea [Dm]round,
And [C]fish the [Dm]Knolls and the [C]North Sea [Dm]holes
And [C]try your [A7]luck at the [Dm]North Shields [Am]Gut
With a [Dm]catch of a [C]hundred [Dm]cran*

No [Dm]need to [C]wait for [Dm]wind and [C]tide, you're the [Dm]master [C]of the [Dm]sea,
Come [Am]calm or [Dm]squall, just [G]shoot and [Dm]haul
And [C]fill the [Dm]hold with the [C]fish to be [Dm]sold
And [C]steam a[A7]head for the [Dm]curing [Am]shed
And [Dm]the buyers on the [C]Yarmouth [Dm]quay

The [Am]whole year [Dm]round on the [G]fishing [Dm]grounds
On the [C]Northern [Dm]Minch and the [C]Nor-way [Dm]Deeps,
On the [C]banks and [A7]Knolls of the [Dm]North Sea [Am]holes
Where the [Dm]herring [C]shoals are [Dm]found

Subject: RE: Chord Req: North Sea Holes
From: GUEST,JohnCNZ
Date: 12 Apr 17 - 08:11 AM

The version by Bob Fox and Stu Luckley (on their 1996 CD "Box Of Gold") has an extra verse that goes as follows:

Now it's up at the dawn, with your sea-boots on
And down to Yarmouth Quay,
To fish Smith's Knoll, where the big seas roll
On the Northern Minch, on the Norway Deeps
And the banks and knolls of the North Sea Holes
Where the herring shoals are found.

They have it immediately before the verse about boilers full of steam.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: North Sea Holes (Ewan MacColl)
From: GUEST,Mysha
Date: 20 Aug 20 - 09:11 AM

Hi,

Would it be worth mentioning that:
- The Northern Minch is the Scotland Fjord, between Lewis and the Scottish mainland;
- The Norway Deeps is/are the deeper waters that lie around the mountainous part of Norway, reaching all the way from Oslo in the East to the waters west of the Big Fjord where it reaches the deeper water of the open sea.

Bye
Mysha

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: North Sea Holes (Ewan MacColl)
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Aug 20 - 09:41 AM

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: North Sea Holes (MacColl)
From: Joe Offer - PM
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 03:44 PM

Right-o, Wolfgang!
The DT Attribution PermaThread is an edited thread that's supposed to provide brief, verified information to Susan of DT so that she can make corrections to the Digital Tradition. But if there's disagreement on an issue, then we need to resolve the question elsewhere.

And on this point, you and I agree that the song is "North Sea Holes," and we have the concurrence of the Essential Ewan MacColl Songbook - but there are those who are not yet completely convinced, so I think the matter warrants further discussion. Can anybody listen to the radio-ballad Singing the Fishing and tell us what you hear? As far as I can tell, the only MacColl recording of the song is on the radio-ballad CD, which I don't have.

-Joe Offer- why not contact Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: North Sea Holes (Ewan MacColl)
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Aug 20 - 10:03 AM

Sooner or later, it shows up on YouTube: Singing the Fishing.
And there are multiple other recordings of North Sea Holes.
John Doyle
Bob Box (feat. Stu Luckley)
Raymond Crooke

But the lyrics were in the DT a long time ago.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: North Sea Holes (Ewan MacColl)
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Aug 20 - 10:13 AM

And as to the argument about the title, I can't really see where anyone is calling it "shoals". It probably happened. Maybe the same way "Shores of Erin" became a thing.

But that argument ended in 2005, and the thread was revived by Mysha this year, regarding something completely different (geographical features). No reason to go on about the title, IMO.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: North Sea Holes (Ewan MacColl)
From: GUEST,Guest Iaiins
Date: 20 Aug 20 - 03:02 PM

Verse 1 settles the question


North Sea Holes

    Ewan MacColl

Come all you gallant fishermen
That plough the stormy sea
The whole year round on the fishing grounds
On the Northern Minch and the Norway Deeps

On the banks and knolls of the North Sea Holes
Where the herring shoals are found

It's there you'll find the Norfolk boys
And the lads from Peterhead
There's Buckie chiels and men from Shields
On the Northern Minch and the Norway Deeps
On the banks and knolls of the North Sea Holes
Where the herring shoals are found

From Fraserborough and Aberdeen
From Whitby, Yarmouth Town
The fleet's away at the break of day
To the Northern Minch and the Norway Deeps
To the banks and knolls of the North Sea Holes
Where the herring shoals are found

It's off with a boiler full of steam
And your engine spic and span
To fish the grounds the North Sea round
And fish and knolls and the North Sea Holes
And try your luck at the North Shields Gut
With a catch of a hundred cran

No need to wait for the wind and tide
You're the master of the sea
Come calm or squall, just shoot and haul
And fill the hold with the fish to be sold
And steam ahead for the curing shed
And the buyers on the Yarmouth quay

Come all you gallant fishermen
That plough the stormy sea
The whole year round on the fishing grounds
On the Northern Minch and the Norway Deeps
On the banks and knolls of the North Sea Holes
Where the herring shoals are found


Just as Dogger Bank is shallow so there are also deeps such as the Norwegian trench silver pit and the Devil's hole and the plunge pools of the southern north sea scablands. On a smaller scale, there are pockmark fields attributed to methane seepages that have a diameter of tens of meters and a lesser depth.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: North Sea Holes (Ewan MacColl)
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 20 Aug 20 - 04:40 PM

Interesting that people thought this was an old folk song; the patterns of rhyme seem different to me from those in ballads, eg especially the internal rhyme, and so on. The broadly list-like nature of the contents is different, there is no story line to speak of.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: North Sea Holes (Ewan MacColl)
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Aug 20 - 06:35 PM

"Interesting that people thought this was an old folk song"

Yeah

Nobody here did that. You're arguing about something nobody said.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: North Sea Holes (Ewan MacColl)
From: GUEST,Mysha
Date: 21 Aug 20 - 08:38 AM

Susanne: A hole is a space where the distance to the bottom (etc.) is larger than it is in the ground around it. Whether that space is filled with water is not really relevant.

The North Sea's Devil's Hole is a north-south trench of 30 km, between Dundee and Aberdeen, some 200 km out from Dundee. In an area with a depth of less than 100m, the Devil's Hole can be more then 200m deep. Modern exploration has revealed that the hole is actually formed by a cluster of trenches. In a way, it's the opposite of the Dogger Bank, a bit further south, where the depth is more like 25 m.

That is the kind of landscape in the North Sea that the fishing songs speak of. And that explains why the song speaks of "North Sea Holes".

Bye
Mysha

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: North Sea Holes (Ewan MacColl)
From: GUEST,Mysha
Date: 21 Aug 20 - 09:28 AM

Hi,

So, the lyrics are captured in the Digital Tradition. But a few years ago, a guest posted another verse.

Do we know more about that? Should it be added to the captured version? Does a possible source suggest itself?

(The Knoll, Smith's Knoll, is a shoal North-East of Great Yarmouth, of maybe 10m. It used to be the location of a light ship, but nowadays the warnings are broadcast by a buoy.)


Bye
Mysha

Subject: RE: Chord Req: North Sea Holes
From: Reinhard
Date: 21 Aug 20 - 09:56 AM

Theses three lines are from "Singing the Fishing" too, starting the track after North Sea Holes:

It’s up with the dawn
With your sea boots on
And down to the Yarmouth quay...

(spoken) Cabin boy in a little boat called the Young John, 1892.

To fish Smith’s Knoll...

(spoken) Little sailin’ boat, about forty ton.

Where the big seas roll...

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: North Sea Holes (Ewan MacColl)
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 22 Aug 20 - 07:08 AM

@ Jeri

Regarding my comment, here is the quotation which, in conjunction with similar remarks that Mudcatters will be familiar with, Sparked off the train of thought.

"There were rare and wonderful occasions when Sam (Larner), or one of the other fishermen, would claim to have known all his life a song which I just had written. When that happened, we knew we had come close to capturing the spirit of the fishing (E. MacColl)"

I was not 'arguing', just commenting. There is a difference, I think.
Well, I would argue that there is ...   :)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: North Sea Holes (Ewan MacColl)
From: Mysha
Date: 22 Aug 20 - 11:13 AM

Yeah, but I still wonder what was actually said. When you create songs of life, the person experiencing that life might say he has known that song all his life, That could simply mean that had been the way things were for all his life; it needn't mean he thought he heard someone sing it when he was young.

E. MacColl seems to have taken it as the speaker thinking he heard that song before. (A bad thing, as it means your songs aren't distinctive enough?) But every time I read that claim it makes me wonder whether the singer actually understood what the speaker was saying.


Bye
Mysha

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: North Sea Holes (Ewan MacColl)
From: GUEST,Tattie Bogle
Date: 22 Aug 20 - 08:20 PM

One spelling correction in the version given by Guest Iaiins: it should be
FRASERBURGH, not Fraserborough.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: North Sea Holes (Ewan MacColl)
From: Mysha
Date: 23 Aug 20 - 02:58 AM

Help out the Frisian?

What difference do the locals hear between those two spellings? One pond away, they represent the same name, and that doesn't actually match either spelling.

Or is there some authoritative spelling of the way it was sung?


Bye
Mysha

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: North Sea Holes (Ewan MacColl)
From: GUEST,Barry Winkworth
Date: 25 Aug 20 - 03:18 PM

Mysha,

The pronunciation of 'burgh' varies with the location and you only really find out you've made a mistake when you get quizzical looks from the natives.

Burgh (similarly, borough and brough) can be pronounced at least four ways: burrow, burra, burr and, as it is occasionally in Cumbria UK, bruff.

How it sounds depends on where you are, not the spelling.

Oh, and Brougham near Penrith in Cumbria is pronounced Broom.

Hope this helps.

Barry

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: North Sea Holes (Ewan MacColl)
From: Mysha
Date: 25 Aug 20 - 03:53 PM

OK, so what is the place of Fraser called locally. Or is there a consistent pronunciation from gallant fishermen, or other authority?



OK; but does that mean I have to change the pronunciation of Ednba'rah?

Bye
Mysha

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: North Sea Holes (Ewan MacColl)
From: GUEST,Barry Winkworth
Date: 26 Aug 20 - 06:04 AM

I've asked a friend who now lives in Maud, about 15 miles from Fraserburgh. She's originally from Aberdeen, a little further away, and used to teach in Peterhead.

Trying to represent how she proununces it as best I can, I'm hearing Freyzaburra, with the 'R's well-trilled.

Does that make any sense at all?

I guess you'd have to adjust your pronunciation of Edinburgh if you want a perfect rhyme but I'm sure assonance would do. How accurate do you want, or need, to be?

Barry

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: North Sea Holes (Ewan MacColl)
From: GUEST,Barry Winkworth
Date: 26 Aug 20 - 06:19 AM

Perhaps a listen to a Scots lass singing it might help with your pronunciation?

Boreas - North Sea Holes

I'm not sure if it's Lori Watson or Rachel Newton singing but it is lovely. And note her pronunciation of Aberdeen! :0)

Barry

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: North Sea Holes (Ewan MacColl)
From: GUEST,Mysha
Date: 26 Aug 20 - 07:25 AM

Hi,

Nice one, that Boreas version.
("Ednburrah", is just about hearing the right mental sound, so I can read on without stumbling. E.g. How much easier reading Robinson Crusoe becomes once you realise the family is from Krus'aa.)

Back to the lyrics:
I recall a final(?) verse along the lines of "First you must catch the fish, else you can't sell them on the quay." Does that ring a bell with anyone?

Bye
Mysha

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: North Sea Holes (Ewan MacColl)
From: Reinhard
Date: 26 Aug 20 - 01:50 PM

It's Lori singing.