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Help: What does 'asthore' mean?
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Subject: What does 'asthore' mean? From: Genie Date: 10 Mar 02 - 04:30 AM I have seen the word "asthore" used, apparently as a term of endearment, in Irish or Irish American songs, such as "Alana Asthore" and "Where The River Shannon Flows." How would you translate it into English? Genie |
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Subject: RE: Help: What does 'asthore' mean? From: katlaughing Date: 10 Mar 02 - 04:46 AM In an article of the Canadian Journal for Traditional Music, 1975, the author says it means "forever" in the River Shannon song: click here Also, found this: Far more precious (but perhaps no easier to catch) is a different sort of treasure, the kind embodied in the word asthore. An Irish term of endearment, asthore comes from the Irish Gaelic a stor -- literally, "oh treasure." Also say a lot of use as a surname and place name. Now, maybe those across the pond will wake up soon and tell us which is correct!*bg* kat |
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Subject: RE: Help: What does 'asthore' mean? From: Fiolar Date: 10 Mar 02 - 05:18 AM When used in conversation it literally means "my darling" and is a term of endearment. There is a song called "Johnny, Mo Mhile Stor" whichs translates as "Johnny, My Dearest Love." "Alana" on the other hand is a corruption of the Irish word "leanbh" (pronounced "lan av") meaning " a child." |
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Subject: RE: Help: What does 'asthore' mean? From: Mr Red Date: 10 Mar 02 - 05:39 AM soed cd rom says asthore / funny characters are pronunciation and may not copy as inteneded. |
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Subject: RE: Help: What does 'asthore' mean? From: GUEST,Philippa Date: 10 Mar 02 - 10:25 AM I couldn't follow the link to the Canadian journal ... but I concur with those who say "a stór", addressing the darling as treasure. Also "a stóirín", little treasure, "ín" has an "een" sound. |
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Subject: RE: Help: What does 'asthore' mean? From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Mar 02 - 12:31 PM That is merely a phonetic spelling of the word "asshole", as pronounced by Japanese actors (or actresses) in more recent monster-destroys-Tokyo flicks or martial arts movies. (Japanese are becoming less polite in the movies than they used to be, in an attempt to reach the modern teen audience.) Example: Eager Japanese photographer in high rise building snaps close-up of Godzilla using flash! Godzilla is irritated by the flash and turns his head toward the balcony, opening his massive jaws and utterly an ear-piercing screech that breaks about a hundred windows, and strips off the cameraman's glasses and tie. Cameraman's smarter buddy (the hero) snaps, "ASTHORE!!! Now rook at what you've done!" Cameraman and hero run frantically for elevator, as Godzilla ponderously begins to get his radioactive flaming breath into gear....nice slow motion shot of flaming breath taking out huge chunk of high rise... Hero and cameraman scramble out of half-demolished and smoking elevator in the basement. Hero's girlfriend (spunky Japanese journalist/science-lab assistant) rushes over and cries "What happened, Jiro?" Hero says, "Ask the asthore!" Cameraman grins sheepishly and shrugs. - LH |
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Subject: RE: Help: What does 'asthore' mean? From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 10 Mar 02 - 12:38 PM You beat Spaw to this one, Little Hawk. No one could have given a more definitive and hillarious answer. Actually I was thinking of people who are really crabby and called Thore heads. This is a lower insult. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: Help: What does 'asthore' mean? From: greg stephens Date: 10 Mar 02 - 12:56 PM Amazinghow a boring old English word like "STORE" comes out all romantic and sort of celticy if you spell it a bit funny. Bit like crack and craic. |
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Subject: RE: Help: What does 'asthore' mean? From: michaelr Date: 10 Mar 02 - 03:57 PM I have a sort-of mondegreen to contribute: For years, I've been singing "St Patrick was a Gentleman" with the last line "He had pigs galore, a garment store, altar boys and ladies". It wasn't `til recently that I found out it's actually "a gra, a stor"... ;-)Michael |
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Subject: RE: Help: What does 'asthore' mean? From: GUEST,Annraoi Date: 10 Mar 02 - 05:44 PM Here follows the four lines of the song cintaining the reference and the totally incorrect interpretation of "asthore". As others have already said, it means "my dear / darling / sweet etc."
"There's a letter I'll be mailing for soon I will be sailing,
http://cjtm.icaap.org/
And the URL for the Canadian Journal for Traditional Music is:
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Subject: RE: Help: What does 'asthore' mean? From: Noreen Date: 10 Mar 02 - 06:41 PM (think you left something out there, Annraoi. Not a surname or a place name either, kat! Fascinating how people (not you, kat) put their own interpretation on things and promulgate it as the truth... |
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Subject: RE: Help: What does 'asthore' mean? From: katlaughing Date: 10 Mar 02 - 07:04 PM I fixed the link in my original posting. Noreen, I'd seen it as a surname in my search on google. Don't know the history of that, though, just found it interesting. Here's a bit more as an example of what I found, from someone's posted family tree (emphasis is mine): Raymond1 Kaines (#175) birth date unknown. He married Joan Asthore Higgins. (Joan Asthore Higgins is #174.) Joan was born in Wagga Wagga, NSW Australia July 26, 1908. Joan was the daughter of Percy Reginald Higgins and Florence Isobella Barnes. Joan died Nov 5, 1996 in Sydney, Australia, at 88 years of age. Also, the Kabalarians, in Canada, have it listed as Girl's Name or Boy's Name, for what it is worth.
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Subject: RE: Help: What does 'asthore' mean? From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 10 Mar 02 - 08:09 PM As Greg pointed out, it's a loan-word from Middle English stor. (Etymological Dictionary of the Gaelic Language, Alexander MacBain, 1896). |
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Subject: RE: Help: What does 'asthore' mean? From: Genie Date: 10 Mar 02 - 08:58 PM LH and Jerry, It tooks like I got more than I bargained for in this thread. Nice touch! Fiolar, thanks for the info on "Alana." Isn't it also a girl's/woman's name in Ireland? (I have known some Alanas here in the US, and I always thought it was a feminine version of "Alan" or "Allan.") Thanks for all your informative posts, folks. BTW, is the "th" sound voiced ( as in "though") or unvoiced (as in "thought")? Genie |
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Subject: RE: Help: What does 'asthore' mean? From: hesperis Date: 10 Mar 02 - 09:14 PM It's pronounced like "a store" - only with a hint of a gaelic accent. AFAIK. :) |
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Subject: RE: Help: What does 'asthore' mean? From: Genie Date: 11 Mar 02 - 02:02 AM Thanks, Hesperis. I wouldn't have guessed that from the spelling. Genie |
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Subject: RE: Help: What does 'asthore' mean? From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy Date: 11 Mar 02 - 09:27 AM Pronounced a store, it is the Irish vocative case, as in a form of address, so, the 'a' translates as 'Oh' and 'stor' means treasure, as in a 'store of goods', 'treasure stored up', it is a somewhat shortened form of 'a stor mo chroi' which means, literally 'oh treasure of my heart', so it means 'o treasure', which one could replace with ' oh darling', 'dear' and the like but it does not MEAN 'oh darling' it MEANS 'oh treasure' ('my' implied) and it certainly does not mean and will never mean 'forever' which is of course 'go bragh' as in 'Erin go Bragh'; you might be familiar with the form for writing letters 'a chara' which literally means 'Oh dear', we shorten it to 'Dear'; English does not have a vocative case as our language is not inflected, but we use words in a vocative sense, like 'Hey you' or when we address someone before we say something else, like 'Joe,.....'; so in that song quoted above the last line is 'Come and take my name Oh treasure' (of my Heart) or by implication, 'my darling or some other endearment, but literaly it means 'oh treasure', & definitely does not mean 'forever'; the vocative causes the consonant change of lenition (softening, called seivú in Irish) in the word that follows, but 'st' is a consonant that does not change, eg to say oh Mary it would be 'a Mhuire' pronounced (in some parts of Ireland) 'uh whyra' not 'uh myra'; |
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Subject: RE: Help: What does 'asthore' mean? From: Big Mick Date: 11 Mar 02 - 09:47 AM Annraoi, could you give me a reference for the word "asthore" meaning "forever"? I have always found you to be an excellent resource for things as gaeilge, but I can't find this one. My presumption as I read the initial post was that the poster had meant a stór. When I read your post I immediately set about trying to find the reference but can't. Could you assist? Thanks, Mick |
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Subject: RE: Help: What does 'asthore' mean? From: GUEST,Martin Ryan Date: 11 Mar 02 - 10:06 AM MIck He's just quoting what he realises is a "completely incorrect" interpretation. Regards |
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Subject: RE: Help: What does 'asthore' mean? From: Big Mick Date: 11 Mar 02 - 10:12 AM Sweet Mother of God, Martin. I am such a dolt at times!! Thanks for pointing out the obvious to me. Annraoi is such a good resource for this stuff, that I couldn't figure out where he got the reference. Talk about me not seeing the forest for the trees..............LOL. Thanks for straightening me out. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Help: What does 'asthore' mean? From: katlaughing Date: 11 Mar 02 - 10:25 AM It's in the article in the link in my first posting, Mick. Obviously the author was a bit mistaken. |
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Subject: RE: Help: What does 'asthore' mean? From: hobbitwoman Date: 11 Mar 02 - 08:22 PM Oh, my! This is my night to learn things! My dad always used to say to me, "When all else fails, you're welcome a stor, Pat Canavan!" (sp?) which I always thought meant like "aboard", because he used to say it when I'd be pouting about the house because I didn't have anywhere to go or anyone to hang out with! :o) Annie |
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Subject: RE: Help: What does 'asthore' mean? From: GUEST,Philippa Date: 12 Mar 02 - 09:00 AM Greg (10 March): It does look to me like the word 'stór' derives from the English, as in "treasure store", " a store of gold" . But in English we have not derived the endearment, "o, store!", but rather the unromantic "grocery store" (American example). Gaelic and English have both borrowed words from each other. Probably Irish as a minority language for the last few centuries has borrowed more from the coloniser's language than vice versa. But often enough when English and Gaelic (whether Irish, Scots or Manx varieties) words seem similar, both word derive independently from Latin or occasionally from Norse. I was interested to see the use of "Asthore" as a name. (I imagine it is a first name not a surname, used as a middle name in the case of Joan Asthore Higgins…can't be sure). This is very similar to the more familiar "Alanna", from the word "leanbh" (child) which can be used endearingly in the vocative, much the same way as we might call someone "pet" in English. As far as I've noticed, Alanna /Alana is not a very common name in Ireland. In Ulster we more often address sweethearts as "a thaisce", which has the same meaning as "a stór". The endearment can be used quite casually, to a child or to a friend who is not a lover. I certainly agree about the spelling of "crack". Although, it has survived most strongly in Ireland, the use of the word to mean conversation and conviviality derives from English language. It seems to have been popular in Scotland; there are poetic examples such as in the song "The work of the weavers", who all met together "for to sit and to crack". Recently there has a vogue in Ireland itself to write always write "craic" when the word has this meaning. Well, I suppose it's useful to distinguish enjoyable crack from crack cocaine or a crack in the ceiling, but really I think "craic" should only be the spelling when we are actually writing in Irish. Bill Kennedy (11 March), I would translate "a chara" literally as "o friend". It has the same function as "Dear" in letter-writing. After all, "Go raibh maith agat" literally means something like "may you have good" but it is usually correct to translate it as "thank you". In Irish, "Erin go bragh" would be "Éire go brách" (but 'g' and 'c' are somewhat interchangable in Irish/Gaelic orthography). Éire is the name of the country. The genitive "Éireann" as in "Mná na hÉireann" (women of Ireland) and the dative "Éirinn" as in "Ar Éirinn ní n-eosfainn cé hí" (for Ireland – i.e., not for anything - I wouldn't say who she is) are pronounced similarly to "Erin". |
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Subject: RE: Help: What does 'asthore' mean? From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy Date: 12 Mar 02 - 09:19 AM Philippa - Yes 'Éire' is the name of the country in Irish in Ireland, but in the USA 'Erin go Bragh' is on every banner that is carried in every S. Patrick's Day parade, which is also an American thing, & has little or nought to do with the way things are done, celebrated, written, spoken, etc. in 'the Ould Sod'. And I agree, in letter writing we wouldn't bother to translate the 'á' in 'á chara...' as 'Oh Friend', or 'Oh Dear' correct English would be 'Dear...' translations are always approximations, and idioms are interchanged between languages when appropriate, but 'asthore' as it is written in many Anglo/Irish songs and 'á stór' as it appears in Irish songs, never approximates as 'forever', and it is often changed to the English 'Dear' because a treasure is dear, 'Precious' might be another candidate, but I've never seen it, and it makes me gag a little, unless you're talking to a cat or some other pet. |
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Subject: RE: Help: What does 'asthore' mean? From: greg stephens Date: 12 Mar 02 - 09:23 AM Philippa, I dont think we are disgreeing. I think I was making the same sort of point, the very prosaic connotations of the word in its current English usage compared to the romantic meaning of the Irish version, and the obvious connection with the usual sterotyped view of the two peoples. I am interested in your agreeing about "crack" and "craic".Many times recently I have seen it stated as a fact that "craic" was orginally an Irish word loaned to English ( ditto "smashing" as in "good") and I can't help thinking this is a total blarneyish fabrication.But I'm no linguistic historian, I'd be willing to be convinced otherwise by some old examples in Irish if anyone could supply them. |
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Subject: RE: Help: What does 'asthore' mean? From: GUEST,Roger O'Keeffe Date: 12 Mar 02 - 10:05 AM Now that the "a stoir" issue has been resolved, can someone give an authoritative gloss on "Erin go bragh", which seems to be US usage, though I think I have also seen it in photographs of banners/flags at early Gaelic League events in Ireland? Or did some Irish regiment in the British army use it as a regimental motto? "Erin" is clearly wrong, as Bill Kennedy points out - it's no more than a misspelling of the genitive or dative cases of "Eire". But I am also unaware of any Irish expression "go bragh" or "go brach". I have tended to assume that it was an attempted phonetic rendering of "go brea" ("nicely" or "well"), and that it was probably a made-up way of saying "Up Ireland" (which would loosely translate into American as "God bless America", a rare instance of Ireland being more secular than the US ;o} ). Can anyone confirm or offer a better interpretation? By the way, "I don't want to be pedantic, but" the vocative particle in English is written "O", not "Oh" - and before some fellow-pedant hits back, I left out the accents from the Irish words deliberately for reasons of keyboard compatibility.
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Subject: RE: Help: What does 'asthore' mean? From: greg stephens Date: 12 Mar 02 - 10:16 AM Well I think you are being a bit pedantic, Roger, and fighting a bit of a losing battle preserving the O/Oh distinction. It's useful, ofcourse, knowing whether someone is saying "Oh shit" which is slightly offensive and "O shit" which could be very offensive (if you are standing in front of the speaker), but I think modern usage has become pretty much randomised. |
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Subject: RE: Help: What does 'asthore' mean? From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy Date: 12 Mar 02 - 11:25 AM 'Erin Go Bragh' is seen everywhere in US, but few Irish-Americans know how to either say it or what it means. It supposedly was a battle cry of one of the Irish Regiments and was probably originally an approximation of 'Éirann go Brách' which is not correct Irish for 'Ireland Forever' either, which would be 'Éire go Brách', but Erin has become an accepted Anglicized version, especially in the US, for Éire, which fewer here could ever pronounce confidently. BTW very few mottos, as seen on coats of arms, etc. are in correct or proper Latin, French or whatever, e.g. 'Honi soi qui mal y pense'. |
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Subject: RE: Help: What does 'asthore' mean? From: RichM Date: 12 Mar 02 - 11:47 AM As a singer of songs from Ireland (not, an "Irish" singer, to be sure) I wouldn't presume an accent that I don't have naturally. My native language is Canadian English, with a bit of a softening to the consonants, befitting my upbringing as a QuébAnglo. However--as a speaker of Quebecois French, I have always been intrigued by the differences in word usage (and pronunciation) from other French speaking peoples. There are some interesting word usages in New Brunswick French, and in Caribbean French, for instance. The fact that there are "American Irish" words that differ from the root language, tickles me too... Rich McCarthy |
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Subject: RE: Help: What does 'asthore' mean? From: greg stephens Date: 12 Mar 02 - 11:53 AM Rich, I've always been intrigued by the differences between cajun french and french french, but i dont know anything about Canada.. as a matter of interest, what does "catin" mean in Quebec? |
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Subject: RE: Help: What does 'asthore' mean? From: Big Mick Date: 12 Mar 02 - 01:17 PM First off, Roger, it was Philippa and not Bill who made the genitive/dative distinction for us. Bill, I find your comment about "most" Americans to be a gratuitous use of the term. While I would agree that many probably don't, I think that your comment is denigrating for the great many that devote time and effort to study of the Irish language. Philippa, who is as good an authority as you will find anywhere, is, if I recall correctly, an Irish American who now lives in Ireland. Another Mudcatter that is as competent as any you will find here is Aíne, who is born and raised in Texas. If I am misreading your comments, please accept my apologies. If I am understanding the implications being made here, it is that the phrase "Erin Go Bragh" was added to the Green Harp flag by the Irish and the Irish Americans in the USA for use on American Civil War battle standards. I am interested in documentation on this, as I am quite certain that I have seen the phrase used on the flags in historical representations of flags in use in Ireland. And while I agree that the phrasing is incorrect, I am interested in knowing its origins. I did a quick check and the only site that implied this to be the case was THIS ONE. My reading of his narrative doesn't offer any evidence of when this phrase was added. Can any of you help on this? I am interested in citations that I can then check out. Thanks. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Help: What does 'asthore' mean? From: Genie Date: 14 Mar 02 - 02:00 AM Well, now, folks, this thread has reaped a LOT more than I sowed, and I'm delighted! As long as the thread is creeping, here is what I think will be an easier question: Does "gossoon" mean "boy?" Also, in the song "Finnegan's Wake," there is the phrase [IIRC} "thanum an dial(?)/" What is the correct spelling and what does it mean? Genie |
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Subject: RE: Help: What does 'asthore' mean? From: GUEST,Annraoi Date: 14 Mar 02 - 05:43 AM The form "Éire" is widely used nowadays in Ireland to refer to the country "Ireland". However, in colloquial speech, the form "Éirinn" (Dative Singular to be exact)is used instead of "Éire". That this usage has a long history is evinced by its use (granted misspelt)by Irishmen and Irish-Americans in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. We don't get hung up about this in Ireland so why lose any sweat over it abroad? Annraoi |
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Subject: RE: Help: What does 'asthore' mean? From: GUEST,Martin Ryan Date: 14 Mar 02 - 06:02 AM Getting back to Hobbitwoman....
I suspect the "Pat" bit was "Peata" or, in English, "Pet" as a term of endearment. As to "Canavan" - were you a blonde child?! Regards |
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Subject: RE: Help: What does 'asthore' mean? From: GUEST,Martin Ryan Date: 14 Mar 02 - 06:58 AM Then again.... Regards |
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Subject: RE: Help: What does 'asthore' mean? From: GUEST,Martin Ryan Date: 14 Mar 02 - 08:50 AM A dictionary of Hiberno-Engish (Dolan)gives "peata bawn" as a common term of edearment! Regards |
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Subject: RE: Help: What does 'asthore' mean? From: Big Mick Date: 14 Mar 02 - 09:00 AM Geez, Annraoi, why does it bug you that we are interested. The answer to your question is simple. Because we don't live in Ireland, weren't raised there, but were raised by people from there that missed their homeland and its customs. Hence we love the idea of Ireland, and it is interesting to many of us to just research this stuff. I imagine it is like that with you on some subject, probably music and the language. Take it a little easy on us. By the Grace of God, or an accident of nature (depending on your sensibilities) you happen to have been born there. And thanks for sharing your knowledge with us. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Help: What does 'asthore' mean? From: Fiolar Date: 14 Mar 02 - 10:00 AM Genie: "Gossoon" is a corruption of the Irish word "garsun" (pronounced - gor soon) and means "a boy." regarding the phrase "thanum an dial"(sic) opinions vary on this. It could mean "do anam don Dia" which translates as "your soul to God." Darker ones are (1) "in ainm an diabhail" = "in the devil's name;" (2) "do anam don diabhail" = "your soul to the devil or "go to the devil." In view of the fact that the ones I have heard all end in the letter "l" I am inclined to go with the "devilish" interpretation. |
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Subject: RE: Help: What does 'asthore' mean? From: greg stephens Date: 14 Mar 02 - 10:07 AM |
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Subject: RE: Help: What does 'asthore' mean? From: GUEST,Terry McDonald Date: 14 Mar 02 - 10:18 AM I wondered too - it crops up on a CD by the Newfoundland band the Irish Descendants - there's a song called the Gypsy Maiden with a line which says 'if you'll we me my pretty Astore' (that's how the notes spelt it.) |
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Subject: RE: Help: What does 'asthore' mean? From: GUEST,Annraoi Date: 14 Mar 02 - 03:11 PM Sorry, Mick, you've misunderstood what I meant. I was not getting at you at all, but it does puzzle me sometimes how seriously non-Irish people take matters which may not be a big deal at all here. I wasn't being hard on you - at least that's not what I intended. Annraoi |
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Subject: RE: Help: What does 'asthore' mean? From: Big Mick Date: 14 Mar 02 - 09:29 PM To there and no further then, sir. I have been giving this a lot of thought lately, due in part to an attitude that I have experienced from some Irish born folks. I am not referring here to you, as I have always found you to be very helpful and decent in your responses. But it is the old "Plastic Paddy" thing. Thanks again for the knowledge you share here. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Help: What does 'asthore' mean? From: hobbitwoman Date: 14 Mar 02 - 10:26 PM Martin Ryan, no, I was not a blonde child nor ever a blonde at all - my hair was dark when I was young but has grown curiously redder as I age! Hey, some of us go gray, and some of us - don't! :o) It's funny how you can hear something all your life and not have a clue what it means, or think it means something completely different! I thougth Pat Canavan was a guy - a character in a play, perhaps, as my father was quite fond of quoting from plays and poetry. I thought he was positively brilliant when I was very young, because he had a saying for every occasion. When I got old enough to study Shakespeare in school, I was blown away to find that my dad had been quoting the bard a good deal of the time! :o) He was a character! My dad, not Shakespeare - though he might've been too for all I know! Annie |
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Subject: RE: EIRE GO BRACH From: GUEST,Philippa Date: 16 Mar 02 - 09:11 PM (no accent marks in the subject heading as this part of the thread does like to go diacritical) In Scots Gaelic Eirinn is now the correct name for Ireland (in the nominative case) |
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Subject: RE: Help: What does 'asthore' mean? From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 16 Mar 02 - 10:41 PM For what it's worth, gossoon is another loan-word, in this case from French garçon, of which the Irish garsun is, if we are to use value-judgements as above, equally a corruption. |
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