Mudcat CD maybe?

Subject: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 12:38 PM

This is an idea that has come up in the New Jerry Rassmussen fan! thread, but it needs a new one of its own.

The suggestion is that of having some kind of compilation CD of Mudcatters, in the first place so we can get to know each other a bit better in terms of the common interest that brings us here in the first place - also maybe as a way of raising a little money for the Cat.

That thread is fairly short still, so I won't stick in quotes from it. I suggest that people interested in the idea open up that thread, read it, and come on back here to add their ideas and comments.

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Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 12:52 PM

See also  A Mudcat CD?

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 01:06 PM

given the excitement, immediacy and eclectic nature of the discussions always on the go in the forum, how about challenging people to record a song chosen from those currently under discussion. Pick one day(eg toaday) some nerdy person o through the threads currentl visible and list all the songs mentioned. Then evrybody who cares to choose one and record it. Bags I "Railroad Bill". Would make a great CD and be a sort of time capsule of one day in the life of Mudcat.

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: C-flat
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 01:56 PM

I think a C.D. is a great idea! I would buy it. I would imagine that many members here would love to contribute but , like me, might struggle with the technology. Would home made tapes have the quality needed to transfer on to C.D.? Would quality be an issue anyway given that for most of us it's just an opportunity to listen to each other? Would the songs need to be original material? I'm thinking here of copyright and royalty issues.

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: GUEST,jaze
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 02:36 PM

Though I don't sing or play, I buy! This is a great idea and if it helps support Mudcat, all the better. James

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 02:42 PM

Two new threads - sorry I didn't notice the other one. Maybe some clever elf will manage to merge them.

In the last one it was suggested by michaelr that "The problem I see with the Idiosyncratic Individual approach is that such an individual's personal tastes would influence the selection, thereby creating resentment in those people whose contributions are not selected."

My feeling is that this is liable to be the case with any kind of selection, and it's feel better to be left out because of the preferences of the Idiosyncratic Individual than because of some selection method that was supposed to representing the collective tastes of the Mudcat community (even though that would be completely impossible to achieve).

It occurs to me that a CD is only one way of achieving one of the purposes of this, getting to know what other Mudcatters sound like singing or playing. If somebody has enough webspace to spare, a sound equivalent of the Photos page in Mudcat Resources would be a way of doing that, using Real Audio. People could send in their tape or CD or MP3 or Real Audio track to whoever was doing it, and everyone could have one or two tracks of their choice, up there for anyone to click on any time they felt curious.

And people could use this to make their own selection of their favourite tracks from other Mudcatters.

With Real Audio it'd take about 100Mb for say 150 songs, I estimate.

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: Amos
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 02:46 PM

I'm going to start a Songs of the Mudcat Songbook CD (Version 2.0) in the near future, for the simple purpose of supporting the 'Cat. Haven't figured out the logistics yet, but it 'll be just homebrew cuts from the Song Challenges and maybe a few others that are in the Songbook.

More as it develops.

Regards,

A

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 02:55 PM

Pick up the ball and run, Amos.

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: michaelr
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 03:40 PM

C-flat - I'd be reluctant to open the can of worms that is copyright issues, so I suggest that only traditional and original (royalties deferred) material be included.

McGrath - I like the idea of a clickable page, but you'd lose the sales-go-to-support-Mudcat aspect. Also, some people prefer to have an actual product in hand, rather than the whole thing being virtual.

Michael

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: Amos
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 03:49 PM

Thanks, McGrath.

What we REALLY need is our Radio show back, fully funded and revitalized. One of its great virtuers was letting us hear each others cuts.

A

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: Giac
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 03:57 PM

Amen, Amos! I really miss Mudcat Radio. Sniff, sniff. I miss Max and Mary Mack and Bert. ~:o(

A sample CD sounds like a good idea.

Mary

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: alanabit
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 04:01 PM

I am sure that plenty of other Mudcatters have music on their home pages. Wouldn't it just be simpler to offer a simpler list of members' pages to click on to?

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 04:22 PM

What does that benefit the Mudcat, alanabit? The thought was, like the calendars, that some profit would go to the Mudcat.

Home tapes can be made into mp3's easily. I still think this should be fairly inclusive with wide leeway on quality and ability; good showing of our diversity. An Eclectic Sampler.:-)

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: Tiger
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 04:52 PM

I worked on one of these with a Jerry Jeff Walker fan group. A bunch of us got together and did about 30 of his songs as a tribute album.

It was lots of fun and we got some damned good stuff.

I'd love to join in on a Mudcat CD.

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: cyder_drinker
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 04:53 PM

I would gladly record a track and send it (either on a CD or via electronic means) to the project. It would probably be a slow Irish air (on flute), cos that's what I'm into at the moment.

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: bigchuck
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 05:36 PM

Sounds like fun, but fair warning, its a hell of a lot of work for some one(s). Both Commando and the Flatpick List do compilation CD's periodically (once a year for FPL). Usually they just about break even, but they are fun. Last year's was a 6 CD set that menbers bought for $35 a pop. Count me in if it gets off the ground.
Sandy

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 05:38 PM

What fun! I'd buy.

Eb

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: hesperis
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 08:52 PM

I'll definitely contribute. Either "Seal Woman" or "Gates to Worlds Unseen". "Seal Woman" is recorded and an mp3 already. Just PM me if you want it on the compilation, Amos, and I'll put it up where you can get it.

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: Justa Picker
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 09:09 PM

I'm in. Just PM me as well.

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 11:30 PM

I agree with Amos' on the MCR providing a great oppertuninty to hear others here...

For me though, the best way, (although some can't use it), Paltalk provides the best means of hearing others that I have come accross as its much closer to sitting down in the same room and playing together but that's just me and I am a live fan (and in honesty can't stand or cope with recording myself).

Jon

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 11:33 PM

Jon, I have a professional cassette recording deck set up, so could record one off of you on Paltalk, with your permission of course. It'd be a shame not to have any of your great talent on a CD!

kat

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: Peg
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 11:48 PM

I think it would be nice to have this available so people could play it on their computers AND a good old-fashioned stereo or boombox; not everyone has audio capability on their computers, and even some of us who do think it sucks, and gee whiz, isn't is nice to get away from the damn computer once in a while???

Oh, and I would be happy to donate a CD track singing some traditional song or other.

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 06:14 AM

CD or clickable sound links - it's not a matter of either or. A CD would be fun to have, it potentially could be a way of getting some money into the Kitty, and generating support in other ways maybe.

A sound equivalent on the photo gallery would be a way we could satisfy our curiosity and get to know each other, and it's be totally open.

They satisfy different needs. We could do with both of them.

The CD needn't be a major operation, if it's decentralised the way I suggested. One person makes the selection from tapes/CDs/MP3's etc. Someone else puts together on a CD, with a bit of basic editing (making the volume level of the different tracks approximately equal, maybe some fade-ins and fade outs, and removing the crackles. Working from the CD the same person or someone else prepares the CD label and cover file.

Then for producing CDs themselves, this could be done on a decentralised basis - all you need to run off copies as and when people want them are a copy of the CD and the file with the label and the cover instructions to be used with some generally available programme like Adaptec. A smattering of people all over the place could do that, as and when requested by whoever was getting the orders with the money, and the costs could be reimbursed (or they might be dealt with as a donation by the people involved in some cases.)

Or of course it could all be done by some willing soul who'd take it all on, such as Amos perhaps, if that's what he'd up for.

Producing and maintaining an online Musical Gallery would be more of a task, since it would need to updated and so forth. But it wouldn't need to be very different from the photo gallery. Once again, it could be done in a decentralised way, with the actual sound files stored on different website, a few here and a few there. I'd be happy to find room for a dozen or so files. (But I'd jib at the idea of taking on the task of running the photo gallery as such.)

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 06:37 AM

All this sounds great.I should be able to get to the technology and donate some stuff. I'd imagine ther's enough contributers out there to produce at the very least a CD a year. Crackin idea All the best PP

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: mooman
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 06:52 AM

I'd be happy to contribute (either something traditional or original) if the idea gets off the ground. This is an excellent idea.

Best regards,

mooman

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: Amos
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 08:42 AM

Ya, hmmm... innerestin' project. Mebbe so, mebbe so.

Mebbe there'll be two CDs this year if I can get a coupla other things off my stack first. One for Songs of the Mudcat Songbook, and one for Ballads, Blues and Folk Songs from Mudcatters.

I need to ponder on this a tad, but y'all would do well to have some .aifs ready, or .wavs or .mp3s. Let's say between three and five favorites.

A.

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 11:03 AM

A copy of my home brewed CD, mostly of my own songs, is in the post now, Amos.

Incidentally, I think there is only one song from the Mudcat songbook in it, this one, I'll see about digging out a few more. I've just been having a browse round the Mudcat Songbook - you know, I've got songs in there I'd totally forgotten about. And of course so many songs from other people I'd missed first time round.

There's a lot of stuff in there well worth pulling into the light. A CD of Mudcat Songbook Songs might be a great Keep-On-Getting-Well-Again Present to Áine. (What might be termed a kogwap...)

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: InOBU
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 11:20 AM

Count me in, I will send a CD with the donated track to who ever we get to be the central techno-nerd. It may be best to centralize it in the Mudcat central high comand, so that they can oversee the $ and make sure they get the full benifit, though I COMPLETELY trust all my fellow cats, it is just that we folk musicians are not know for our ability to successfully manage money or tie our shoes.
Cheersm'dears, Larry

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: InOBU
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 11:21 AM

are not known... I really can speak engilsh you know, Larry

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: Spartacus
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 11:42 AM

I don't know if anyone is keeping track, but I would definitely donate a track to a mudcat CD. Who would master and print the CD? Would it be available only on mudcat? Give me some details man....

Spartacus

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: alanabit
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 12:39 PM

Fair point Katlaughing. I would be quite willing to contribute either way - whether to buy the album or to contribute material (if anyone wanted it). My point was that I would like to be able to simply click on to other Mudcatter's homepages by going straight to one thread or folder. I would be very interested to hear what sounds fellow Mudcatters make and this would be a way of making it easier for me to hear them by making use of existing resources. Nothing against the idea of a CD at all. If we get one together I'll buy it.

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 01:13 PM

given the amount of talent represented among Mudcatters, the issue... after deciding it should be done.... is how many CDs!...and who would be on which in what order. First come, first serve?...exclusion of those (like me)who are not quite so....ummmm...'polished'? *grin*...

I am NOT trying to be a naysayer to a great project, just wanting to put all the cards on the table for contemplation. Perhaps it would be non-issue in such a friendly group *wide smile*, but there are egos...and this is MUSIC....

I really am all for it if it will raise $$$ and €€€ and £££ for Mudcat!

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: Amos
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 01:22 PM

Well, I don't expect, if I open the floodgates to such a project (which i am inclined to do as soon as I can make room) that we will be flooded with candidates, if we stick to say three cuts per person.

And I think the editor, whoever it is, has to have design / editorial authority, providing he does it with grace and a generous spirit. I happen to be world-famous for those. (hahahaha) :>)

Seriously, I think we can count on a fair representation and a minimum of stubbed toes with sufficient communication. I am sure that the process of dialogue could be conducted in a way to satisfy all the crying needs, egos and foibles involved. You're right, this is music and there are egos -- but we are not children, usually! :>) Well...usually. ***bg***

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 01:38 PM

A specific link to Mudcatters websites might be handy. Though of course we've already got a facility for Profiles (see alongside the photos in Mudcat Resources, which are on the Quick Link menu at the top of the page), with a place on it to indicate websites, and that's quite an interesting browse.

I suspect a lot of people never find their way there. It'd be interesting if a few more people put their profiles in; or their photos for that matter.

As for the money arrangements - I'd imagine all the money would be sent direct to Mudcat (or in the case of people in the UK and Ireland to the Friends of Mudcat account when that is set up.) Whoever produces and sends out the CDs could claim back the cost of postage and production.

That's be for online orders. I suppose if someone took a batch along to sell directly at a festival or something there'd be some other way of dealing with it. Most people are honest in small things like that. I don't think we are talking about the kind of sums that would tempt many people into ripping the Cat off.

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: Amos
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 02:00 PM

Gee, Kevin, I never thought of that -- anyone who would be so tempted must be quite desperate indeed.

A

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 04:32 PM

I'd like to return to the selection issue. I would like the opportunity to hear everyone who takes the time to makes their music available, irregardless of the degree of polish, instrumentation and gimics. I suggested in Jerry's thread a cut off date for those who want to submit fir the first edition which may require three or perhaps four CD,s over perhaps several months. New Catters who come along will be included in a second edition which again may require more than one CD, but most likely would have fewer contributors. As for the selection from the contributors of the first edition, I would favor some type of random selection for the disc #1, #2, ect. but some manipulation of order within each disc so that there is some level of continuity. I would think at some point in time after maybe two complete editions have been circulated, a "Best Of" CD could be put together, perhaps with a little gloss that could perhaps be offered to the public and sold at events.

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 04:38 PM

"I would like the opportunity to hear everyone who takes the time to makes their music available, irregardless of the degree of polish, instrumentation and gimics."

The sound file on a website at the end of a clicky really is the most practical way of doing that. In fact it seems to me it would be the only practical way. And as I said, that si in no way to dismiss the idea of a CD or a series of CDs, which I think is an excellent idea, and could be a useful fundraiser.

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: Spartacus
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 05:00 PM

Im with Bobert on wanting to hear everyone. I'm also with McGrath on the clicky being the easy way.

I like Bobert - I like McGrath - I dont' know who I like.

I still want to submit some songs, so let me know what's going to happen when you all decide.

-spartacus

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 09:07 PM

Bobert is right on. I can imagine that the diversity thus achieved would be awesome.

I have a couple of Civil War (US) things I'd like to do but aside from that I'd like to do whatever helps get this together.

Someone needs to be selected to honcho this CD. If I had the gear and the expertise I'd volunteer but if there is someone out there who has both, I'll help you in any way I can.

CB

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: Amos
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 09:40 PM

I have the gear and can acquire the expertise but I don'thave a lot of time to spare right now.

I am sympathetic to wanting to hear everyone, which is why I suggested, say, three songs per performer for the second CD I mentioned, whose working title was "Blues, Ballads and Folk Songs from the Mudcat Café", or something like that.

At between 20-30MB per track in .aiff format, we can get about 26 tracks on a CD. If we produce a two-CD set in the first edition, we can up that to about 52.

I guess the question is how many 'Catters want to be on the First Ever Mudcat Commercial Collection CD??

But let me just caution you, if you cover someone else's song, the copyright business is your problem!!

A

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 09:48 PM

McGrath: Okay, the bobert says as he pulls the string that lights the bright red and blue neon sign that reads...."snoissefnoc eurt"... opps, I'm behind the sign. Lets me go around to other side. Ahhh... "true confessions". That's better. Now, I don't know if I'm speaking just for myself, and if I am please ignore the bobert ramblings, but I don't know how to do "clicky" stuff. I've been too busy beating on my poor ol' Martin for these years that everyone else was turning in to pinball techno wizzards and, hey, there may be others out there that just don't have the capabilities, haven't learned the secret handshakes and can't for the life of em' figure out how to share their music with a community they feel part of. But then again, the bobert may be the last of the Mohegans, and if this is the case then ignore this point of view.

Plus, I just like Cd's. You can take 'em with ya. You can make tapes from them and then listen to them in your car cassette player, if you don't have a car CD player. You can lend 'em to friends. You can stop 'em and run back a part when you're trying to figure out what someone is doing.

Man, if someone had told me ten years ago, when I was still palyin' LP's, that one day I would be arguing the case for CD's as being passe' technology, I'd have thought it crazy... but here I am spillin' my guts. Danged.

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: khandu
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 10:06 PM

I do well to post a thread on the forum. I am technologically deficient. I have no idea what some of the things that have been discussed mean. However, I am not musically deficient! I would be zealously happy to contribute a recording to any cause that supports Mudcat.

khandu

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: Charcloth
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 10:08 PM

I'd really like to have a sample of everyones ability & be glad to contribute a cut or two.
Charcloth

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: erwanda55
Date: 12 Mar 02 - 12:04 AM

I'd be interested in getting a cd. What the heck is the clicky thing?

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: Amos
Date: 12 Mar 02 - 12:12 AM

erwanda:

It is local slang for a link which, when clicked, takes the viewer to another page or place in a document. Rick Fielding was bemoaning his inability to make these links and called them "Blue Clicky Things" (because when you make one they turn blue like this.

See?

A

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Mar 02 - 01:04 AM

I don't think this should be laid at the feet of just one person. With that much material it seems we should have at least 2-3 people willing to do the initial work, i.e. deciding which cuts, fixing the levels, etc.

There are enough of us, also, who sing cowboy stuff, that I think we could have one whoe cd of just them, esp. if Norton1, Francy and a few others join in.

kat

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: Mudlark
Date: 12 Mar 02 - 02:44 AM

I think this is a wonderful idea, particularly as I don't have the capability, being a lonely Mac user, to join in on Paltalk, and my real audio is defunct. I would like to both participate and purchase. However...

".aifs ready, or .wavs or .mp3s."

it total Greek to me. I have a pretty good mic and tape deck tho. Please give this technodunce a clue as to whether submissions on tape would be usable.

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Mar 02 - 03:41 AM

Mudlark, tapes are no problem. Anyone who wants to submit theirs on tape is more than welcome to send them to me and I will put them onto my harddrive, make them into .wavs or .mp3s and voila!:-)

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Mar 02 - 07:27 AM

I like the idea of a series of CDs a lot, and I get the feeling it's going to happen, and it'll be great fun, and there'll be some great music on it.

But even with a CD with 30 tracks, that's only 15 people at two tracks a head. I make it 51 Mudcatters with Profiles in the Mudcat Resources, and 180 with photos, and of course far more who aren't in either.

At present if I get curious about what someone looks like I can go through to the photos via the Quick Links menu, and quite often they'll be there. I'd like to be able to do the same to a Sound Gallery, and listen to a song or tune or two.

And it doesn't need hi-tech knowledge from the people putting in the songs and tunes - they just need to sing or play into a tape recorder and put the tape into an envelope, and send it some knowledgeable and helpful soul.

Of course all that would be dependent on having someone who could do that, and on the webspace being available. (And I'm not volunteering, and I haven't got the webspace.)

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: Spartacus
Date: 12 Mar 02 - 08:35 AM

I shudder as I type this, but I could do some mastering...We should have one person per CD mastering the sound. The sound will be really inconsistent if you have 2-3 people doing it on different equipment in different places. If there is enough interest, maybe there could be a mudcat blues, american folk, western, irish, english, etc. CD. I would love to handle the american folk or western CD. (only because I don't know much about the Irish and I don't play alot of blues.... Someone let me know....

Spartacus

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: Mudlark
Date: 12 Mar 02 - 04:22 PM

Thanks for the input, Kat....email me where and when to send tape....I sure would like to hear all the folks I've come to care about on the Cat...

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: Spartacus
Date: 12 Mar 02 - 04:32 PM

Ok. I know alot of you don't really know me. But I'll offer it one more time...If there are enough people interested, I could master a CD of tapes, mp3's and waves and put it in the hands of whoever at mudcat would be in charge of it. I could probably sell copies at my shows and donate the proceeds to mudcat...any way if i can be of any help, someone let me know. (i'd settle for being on the cd!)

-spartacus

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Mar 02 - 04:35 PM

Mudlark, please remind me, in a PM, when it looks like we are getting closer to doing this? Thanks.**BG**

For people who want to put a few songs up with not too much effort, I would recommend www.iuma.com. Hesperis suggested it to me for my brother's music. It is free, easy to set up, the only thing that bothered me a little was they were in the middle of some artists' vote and it took them a while to approve the site and add it. They have prefab pages and it is very easy to uplaod your files to them.

For an example of what can be done, please click here. I did that in an afternoon, rush job, but at least now we have a place online for folks to go listen. Word of warning, those are all live recordings, pre-digital days, taken off of cassette masters, which in turn were from reel-to-reel and video masters. Also, the Ode to the Rockies was the first ever world premier the orchestra had ever performed. So....it's "vintage"...a real collector's item!**BG** The piano pieces were performed by the composer at the Music mansion in Providence, RI.

Below is what IUMA has to say about themselves:


IT ALL STARTED AT A TIME WHEN COMPANIES WEREN'T FORMED IN GARAGES.

BANDS WERE.

It was back in the good old days - 1993 - when Jeff Patterson and a couple of friends formed the Ugly Mugs. They yearned to play their finely honed tunes like "Cold Turd on a Paper Plate" and "Abracadaver" for more than a few drunks in a bar. So, they hacked together a pretty cool web site called the Internet Underground Music Archive, IUMA for short. (As you can see, they suck at naming bands, songs and web sites). The idea caught on, and soon a few thousand of their friends' bands joined them.

Today, IUMA is the one place to post your music where actual musicians are watching out for you - not weasels watching the numbers. You have your own URL with your band name first. And a custom web page where you can post all your band info and MP3s, sell CDs, create message boards, fan lists, and of course, get e-mail from your fans - all Free.

The IUMA mission is simple - for every artist with a record deal, on FM radio, or in Tower Records - there are a thousand talented artists chasing that dream and a million new music fans who will never get to hear their music. We're changing all that - bringing these artists and fans together, getting the music out and giving new music fans a cool new way to discover new music.

Using the site is easy. Go to the home page, find a genre of music you like, and start listening to new music. You can sample it in Real Audio and then pull the MP3s when you find something you like. You can also visit Artist's IUMA web site and interact with the artist through email and message boards. If you've got work to do, we suggest you launch IUMA Radio and let your favorite genre play in the background while you work.

At the heart of it all, IUMA is about letting the music speak for itself, and letting the artist speak directly to their fans. We remain committed to the independent musician and will continue to bring you the future of music.

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Mar 02 - 05:21 PM

That looks quite fun - only thing is it seems a bit stuck in the mindset of the music industry, which is fair enough, but our music is really only marginally part of that whole thing.

Anyway, wherever the actual music and songs are actually homed, it'd be handy to have a permathread or a page on Mudcat resurces which would provide a short cut to it. Some of the links would lead to IUMA, some to people's own home pages, and other places as well.

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 12 Mar 02 - 05:22 PM

I'd love to contribute here...does the material need to be something that one (or ones group) did not previously record? If not, I could speak to my group to see if they'd be up to "donating" a song for the CD. If so, then are we talking about people in a general area meeting up to do some mass recording?

All for the idea

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: Hollowfox
Date: 12 Mar 02 - 06:19 PM

Perhaps we could have some sort of sign-up for folks who are committed to buy a copy, like we had for the Mudcat patches. That way, nobody gets stuck with storing the extras, and nobody gets stuck financially. Yes, I read above about burning cd's more or less on demand, and de-centralizing the production, but it's still a good idea to know about how many copies are being talked about. Add my name to the list, BTW.

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: Alice
Date: 12 Mar 02 - 06:41 PM

There are two stations of Mudcat member music that I created last year (could also be made into a CD compilation if everyone involved would want to set it up that way).

The Wild Bird's Nest and
Mudcat Music II

The above links to recordings have been posted in other threads, but maybe some poeple have missed seeing them. Mp3's could easily be compiled, then there would be no money put out up front to make the CD's. Each CD could be ordered from anywhere in the world, directly from mp3.com (like Kat's idea with IUMA, but these files are already put together on the stations, just need to have whoever new added).
Alice

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Mar 02 - 07:51 PM

Ah, good Alice. I didn't know if you still had those going or not and I couldn't remember their names. That'd be much the better way to go, imo. Thanks!

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: michaelr
Date: 12 Mar 02 - 08:53 PM

Alice - let me get this straight. You upload recorded music to your "radio" station, which is a page at mp3.com. Listeners then compile personal track lists with the songs of THEIR choice. mp3.com then makes one copy of THAT CD and mails it to you. Have I got it right so far?

I'd like to put the following questions into consideration:
What does mp3.com charge for such a CD, and for mailing it?
Are these audio CDs that play in any CD player?
Where does the insert/artwork come from?
How could the Mudcat benefit monetarily if we went that route, which on the surface appears more elegant and much less labor-intensive?

To reiterate my concern about mp3 files: from what I've heard, they're nowhere near CD quality (which is nowhere near LP quality, but we don't want to go there); in fact, I have found them irritating to listen to - sort of like sitting under flickering fluorescent lights.

Regards,
Michael

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Mar 02 - 10:35 PM

Are we getting any where? If so, where do we low tech-ies send our casette tapes.

Being relatively new to the Catbox, I'm not too sure how the tee shirt thing got going but it seems that everyone has good ideas and Spartucus has had his or her hand up for a while up there trying to volunteer services. Hmmmmm? Ol bobert ain't too sure how anything gets organized and done in puter-land? Does the "BIG HEAD" just step in after a while and say,"This is how its goinna be?" or what...?

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: michaelr
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 02:43 AM

Hang in there Bobert - these here newfangled thangs don't work as fast as the spec sheet says. *G* I think Alice just may have pointed the way to the best method of all (if I understand her correctly):

* Everybody can upload their music (with help from Kat and others)to Alice's "radio" web page on mp3.com.
* Listeners can sample everyone's music over the net, using realaudio, and decide which songs they'd like to have at home.
They can then order a custom CD made just for them, with the tracks they like best.

It's elegant in its simplicity. Now we need to find out what it costs. Let's see what Alice says, Bo, and take it from there.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 06:28 AM

I'm not clear how this works - and the second of those links from Alice didn't seem to get there.

What I want is to be able to get from the Cat to a list of Catters where I can click on the names and here them. And I want to be able to order a compilation CD chosen by some fellow Catter (or series of them) and know that any profit from this over and above the cost of making and mailing the CD goes to the Mudcat. (I'd also like to be able to download tracks and make up my own CD, and send an appropriate donation to the Mudcat on an honour basis).

If Alice's stations are a way of achieving part of that, great, and thanks.

One thing - to hear music from MP3com you have to give a few details, and there's one of those bits where they say can we send you junk mail and pass your details on the other people, with a box for a tick next to it - but there's no indication whether ticking the box means YES or NO. And I want to say NO, as I always do in such cases. I get enough spam without inviting it.

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: MMario
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 08:31 AM

CS - I would say that it wouldn't matter whether or not your group has recorded it before - more importantly would be who owns the rights to the song/performance. for minimum hassle the songs should be in the public domain or with copyright held by the performer so that there will be no legal hassle. In the case of a pre-recorded number, then publishing rights would need to be held by the performer, unless the mechanical rights are granted by the publisher for this project.

I think I've said that correctly.

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 09:01 AM

I was under the impression that there had been a number of complaints about mp3.com by artists feeling they were not getting a fair deal. Not sure that would affect a Mudcat project but it may be a good idea to know more...

As with many web ideas, the real handicaps for an indivdual trying to set up independently are storage space and bandwith issues. I could have something written in the Annexe that allows users to upload their own audio files within a week but I have 40MB disk space and 2GB per month transfer limits... Has anyone considered asking Max if he could host it?

Oh, and kat, thanks for the offer but that would just make me paraniod about using Paltalk. I have some old stuff somewhere on a tape of me that maybe someone could use (I don't have the tech here at the moment) if I was to contribute.

Jon

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 10:13 AM

One way round problems with storage space and bandwidth for a web musical resource would be to spread it around, the way I suggested earlier. 50 people providing 10Mb each adds up to 500 Mb.

A central index, included in Mudcat resources, that would link in to the files on all those would take up only a couple of Mb. It might be more complex organising something like that to start off, but once it was running it'd be straightforward enough.

There's no shortage of places you can get 10Mb or so of webspace without any problems about file size, and it's not difficult setting up a website, and there could be a simple common format for it, including finding webspace and a do-it-yourself guide online.

We still haven't got used to this new world we are living in - hardly anything actually needs to be centralised any more. (Maybe the only limitation remaining is that time lags mean we can't actually make live music together online as ensembles, we have to take turns. I think that's a permanent limitation too. But that's good in itself.)

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: C-flat
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 11:18 AM

I hope that if this goes ahead someone's going to help out us technophobes who would like to contribute but don't know how to do the wizzy computer stuff! UPLOAD? Which hole do I plug my guitar in to do that then? ..No don't answer that! Seriously though, as a few have already mentioned, many would-be contributors can only get their stuff down on tape and it would be a shame to restrict this to the computer-literates only. Some of the earlier posts assume a level of technological familiarity which I, for one, don't possess. I know I'm not the only dinosaur here! Please talk SLOWLY and LOUDLY, thanks.

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 11:25 AM

No problem, Jon. Please know I would never tape off of Paltalk without someone's permission, though. Or did you mean ti would make you nervous to play if you knew you were being taped?

C-flat, also no problem. This will not be limited to the "techies." You send me a tape, I can get it on for you. I suspect there are a few others who can do this, too.

kat

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: Kim C
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 12:02 PM

I have mp3's of all the songs on our cassette. They are all either original or PD. I'd be happy to contribute a song, as well as perhaps a bit of cash to get the CDs made. They don't cost so much anymore, and if everyone put in maybe $10, we could get a couple hundred.

Also I'm sure there's a graphic designer in our midst who would be willing to design the jacket.

A CD will hold a LOT of stuff on it - no need to limit to 10-12 songs.

There's been a lot of good ideas bandied about here. If someone wants to start a committee or something to actually get it done, holler at me.

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: GUEST,Alice at another computer
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 12:22 PM

The Mudcat II station still exists - I just checked in my administration page for all my stations, so I don't know why it is temporarily off. Anyway, mp3.com just upgraded the premier artist functions so that a CD can now be made without all their mp3 promo printed inside - and it costs less than before. If you want to see what mine looks like (I designed the graphics) it's on my www.mp3.com/AliceFlynn page. Someone would have to take on the responsibility of setting up a Premier artist membership for a group of Mudcatters who agree to use their music together as one (or if their is an MP3.com Promoter in our midst, take on the Mudcatters as one of their artists). It's an affordable way to go, can easily be done internationally, but like most people here, I just don't have the time to do it. I may be able to donate graphics for the CD, and can definitely donate some music.

Alice

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: GUEST,Alice
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 12:24 PM

that should be "if there is", not "their".

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: michaelr
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 09:23 PM

Alice - please tell me:
* How much do these CDs cost? And the postage?
* Are they audio CDs that play in any CD player, or are they CD-ROMs with mp3 files on them?
* I have a page on mp3.com (see Greenhouse under Celtic). Does that make me a premier artist?
* What about sound quality? Does your CD sound as good as your source recordings?

Looking forward to the info.
Michael

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 11:14 PM

Hmmm - I've been out of this for a week or so - I am unsure of what the copyright issues are with old music. If the artist is dead does that mean they can be redone? My only experience with copyright was with John Denver - and it wasn't cheap. Any time limit on how long a song must be out before you need to get payment to someone?

Kat - if we could come up with a few tunes I could certianly come into The Snug at a pre arranged time and we could record a couple of tunes. We'd not be bothered with folks coming in and out there. I'm not convinced I'm near good enough for recording but certainly willing to add my piece to the pie!!

And Spartacus - I think you should get together with the folks in here who have volunteered to record some of this and let them know what you need to be able to master a CD. Good show for you volunteering!!

Steve

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: InOBU
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 07:12 AM

Hmmmm, we still haven't heard from the folks who RUN mudcat??? Someone want to PM Max or so and find out their views on all this??? Larry

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: Spartacus
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 11:04 AM

If you all decide that you need the help, I can take CDs, MP3's, DAT tapes and even cassetes and master them into a CD. I will need some information concerning distribution, reprinting, posting it to a website, etc.... Or I could just send someone a song or two....

It seems, for once, that we have too many indians and not enough chiefs....

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: MMario
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 11:27 AM

been only four days people. Even in our "instant gratification" society - some things take a while to percolate thorugh and around.

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 12:36 PM

Norton, the life of either the composer or the performer is irrelevant. A copyright is a piece of property which survives for I think it's 75 years. That may be longer now. Anything published before 1923 is almost surely out of copyright, but any copyright after that is in all likelihood still in effect, and SOMEONE owns it.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 12:43 PM

Norton, the life of the composer or performer is irrelevant. A copyright is a piece of intellectual property with a life of its own. As I understand it, anything before 1923 is probably safe. Anything after that may well still be under copyright, and SOMEBODY owns it and wants payment.

On another subject, I would be willing to commit to buying a copy of the CD(s) if the cost isn't greater than "in the neighborhood" of $10 US. MAYBE I'd go as high as $15, but that's pushing it.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 12:45 PM

Not quite. Someone with a song published in 1923 could still be alive. (Getting on a bit of course.) The copyright onlt starts to count down when they die.

Mind you I've never been sure how the United States can lay down the period of copyright for songs and music that don't originate in the USA.

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: MMario
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 01:21 PM

When you get into international copyright it gets really confusing. MoH - in the US - everything before 1923 is public domain unless covered by International copyright. This is due to the way they rewrote the law.

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: michaelr
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 08:15 PM

Still waiting for Alice to answer my questions...

Michael

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: C-flat
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 03:59 AM

Just giving this a refresh as I hope the idea runs!

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: Chris Amos
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 05:22 AM

Hi,

I think this is an excellent idea but we seem to be in danger of talking ourselves into the ground by having too many options.

I favour a CD, as it would help the more technologically changed among us. I would be prepared to sell it at my gigs and put some in all my local clubs.

We have had a very good offer from Spartacus to do the mixing, and I think we should vote for a panel to select the tracks to go on the album, I nominate Amos, McGrath of Harlow and Alice.

Seize the time Mudcatters.

Chris

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: InOBU
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 06:48 AM

I second the motion. Larry

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: Amos
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 10:08 AM

OK -- Ol' Namesake has shamed me into at least announcing I am accepting candidate songs for a Mudcat collection representing the various artists who want to be included.

For those who can only provide tapes, please arrange to have Kat put them on CDs as described upthread, or find a local service that will do it. I couldn't guarantee sufficient quality with my tapeplaying equipment, or I'd do it for you.

I can also accept MiniDiscs if they are playable on a Sony MDLP.

If too many candidates are received I will coordinate selection with McGrath and Alice.

Okay?

Andale!!

A

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: John P
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 02:19 PM

Amos,
I would love to send you some tracks. I can send .AIFF files, or snail mail you a CD with two or three tracks. Where should I send them? You can email me if you like.

John Peekstok
Telynor

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: Amos
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 02:52 PM

Anyone needing the snail address can PM me or email me for it as you prefer.

Amos

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: InOBU
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 05:59 PM

Hi Amos: As you have them on CD already, how bout Yvette's song and Amadou Diallo? Cheers, Larry

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 02:29 PM

Refresh

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 02:48 PM

How about mp3s? Could they be sent to you direct? Kat has offered to tape mine but I figured out how to do it direct on the puter -

Steve

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 03:12 PM

Both Spartacus and Katlaughing have (been mentioned) (volunteered) as being a person to send a tape to, for conversion into computer form for this project. What is the present status of this?

I have taped three pieces, which I assume is an appropriate number of songs for submission. I just need to know where to send it.

If my assumption of three is mistaken (high OR low), somebody please advise me of that.

I'm willing to contribute to the fund-raising aspect some reasonable amount, either by way of purchasing a CD or an advance contribution. Here again, if someone will let me know what to do.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: hesperis
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 04:15 PM

Awesome, Amos!

I'll send you a PM by the end of the week with a link or two. :)

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 08:33 PM

I can accept mp3 files or .aiff files but I am not sure what the file size limit is at which my RoadRunner mail service will balk. If you do get a bounce, you can use MyDocsOnLine.com which allows you to upload larger files and then "give" them to a recipient by supplying an email address.

The recipient gets an email and goes to MyDocsOnline to download the file.

But I believe both parties have to have an unexpensive account with the service.

Mac users can do the same thing themselves using Apple.com's free web storage. You put the file in your public folder and send me an email with the web address for downloading from. There are other web sites that allow the same mechanism.

I have gotten some really great candidates for the Mudcat Sampler and I will work to assemble a proposed set of candidates as soon as time allows.

Look forward to hearing from you all!!

If you have written Mudcat Songbook Songs please record those and note them as such -- Challenges or other ones -- so they can go on the Mudcat Songbook CD. C'mon, you Challengers!!!

Warmest regards,

A

Subject: RE: Mudcat CD maybe?
From: Amos
Date: 14 Apr 02 - 01:56 AM

This discussion is continued in a new thread called Mudcat CD II -- over here.

Charge on!!

A