BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'

Subject: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 05:39 PM

Okay, it's just me and I thought I'd attract a discussion that started over on the MUDCAT WOMEN thread. When Terry objected to the Mudcat "women" idea I was harkened back to the long past days of Shula an her song circle here. But this does have some merit.

Annie was asking about women here and their active involvement in playing instruments, singing, and the like. What is definitely true is that through the years as societal "laws" have changed, what a woman could accomplish in any field has also changed....and that includes folk and old time music. Although there was the original "Banjo-Pickin' Girl" for many years the music that we heard was recorded in the main by men and men definitely played the instruments. And yet it isn't the men we owe so much to in keeping the songs alive and passing them through in all of their permutations. Mountain women with families and the women in the Settlement Schools kept the music alive perhaps to a far greater degree than their male counterparts.

I recommend a book to all of you called, Finding Their Voice.....I'll come back with the details later on it. I found though that Annie's question was more than legitimate and even very perceptive in a way as much of the problem still exists.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: Amos
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 05:53 PM

Well, the old complaint was always that women should know their place.

And that is as true today as it was in the 1900's. Women should know thei place.

And men, likewise, should know their place.

But in both cases they have to find the goddamn thing first, and there's the rub. It's a miracle to come across anyone who really knows their place, regardless of gender. When it occurs, ya know what?? It's because they finally decided to define it for themselves. For most of us this is entirely too much work, but leaving it undone just means you end up not knowing your proper place, and that gets you in all sorts of trouble!! :>)

"Uppity homo sap sap! Someone oughta teach it its place!!"

"Never mind, it's gonna do it itself...save ya the trouble!"

"Oh, all right. Warp speed then, set course for Kalyon III. There are some weird sentient-silicon beings up there who are getting fancy notions of self-determination we have to handle!"

"Kalyon III, aye....."

A

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: John Routledge
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 05:57 PM

I know my place and will post here rather than the other thread which specifically asks for comments from women :0)

Cheers and great music and song to all - John

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 05:59 PM

I've heard tell that a womans job is to cook, clean, look after the kids, look after the man, shop, look good etc etc etc.

The mans job is to keep the woman happy..;-)

Cheers

Dave the (sexless) Gnome
Ducking and running.

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 06:10 PM

Well, I knew I had something wrong....The title of the book is Finding Her Voice; The Saga of Women in Country Music, written by Robert Oermann and Mary Bufwack. It's now out of print but not too hard to find a copy. It's got a few errors here and there but it traces an interesting history and raises a lot of thoughts to mind as you read. If I look at all the bios and histories I've read in the past few years, this one probably had more impact on me, especially in terms of "just getting me thinking."

One of the significant points made that interested me was the role of women in passing along the tradition as I alluded to above. Also, as old songs got changed to reflect the times they lived in, in many cases the words were distinctly from the woman's point of view and from where she saw the social interaction between men and women.

Good book in a lot of ways.......Give it a try.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: khandu
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 06:24 PM

According to my dear old, and long-gone Granpappy, a woman's place is barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen.

Woman-"Honey, would you please buy me a watch?"

Husband-"What the hell you want a watch for? You got a perfectly good clock on the stove!"

khandu

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: Desdemona
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 06:27 PM

"Equal But Different"! This is the way I've always looked at this whole gender thing. I'm fortunate to have grown up in a time when it hasn't really been an issue whether a woman kept her "place" or not as much as it was for my parents' generation. I'm in my 30s, and always knew that I could have a career or not, voice my opinions openly & freely, choose whether to shave my legs or drink a pint at the bar or wear lipstick and basically do whatever the guys did if I damn well wanted to. For my kids' generation, these things should be complete non-issues, at least in Western culture.

That said, it would be silly to argue that there aren't inherent differences between men & women, and to my mind these are things to be celebrated as part & parcel of one's individual identity, in a spirit of understanding & appreciating one's individuality, rather than a spirit of divisiveness. Women and men absolutely experience some aspects of life in very diferent ways, but this ought to mean that we can learn from each other!

I recently had the oportunity to participate in a local production of the "Vagina Monologues", and it was very refreshing to be part of something that, while pro-female, was most emphatically NOT anti-male; it's important to embrace who we are, and that doesn't mean that we reject or polarise ourselves based on who other people are.

This is just being human, the way I see it.

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: GUEST,honest annie
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 06:51 PM

Thank you for the tip catspaw49, I will look for that book.

I agree with Desdemona that it should be on a case by case basis, but it often isn't that simple. My Mudcatter friend assures me that if I put on a long wig over my gray hairs, and wear a push-up bra and tight jeans, and then sing songs about cats and bellybutton lint then I will have a shot, but until then I am going to have a fight on my hands. That is okay by me!

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: Amos
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 06:59 PM

Desdemona:

For the benefit of those of us less exposed to revolutionary works in the recent past...what the hell are the "Vagina Monologues" ???

I'm not saying another word on the subject until I learn a bit more about it ... **bg**

A

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: Desdemona
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 07:35 PM

Amos---"The Vagina Monologues" is a play by Eve Ensler; over the course of several years, she interviewed women of a variety of ages, backgrounds, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc., about how they thought/felt/experienced/were affected by their identities as women, specifically in terms of their vaginas, which I hardly need mention is a subject far more taboo in western culture than penises! As one line from the play puts it "it's like the Bermuda Triangle: no-one ever reports back from there"!

It's a hilariously funny, thought-provoking & moving piece; check out the web-site at:

http://www.vaginamonologues.com/

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 07:43 PM

I accidentally stumbled into "The Vagina Monologues" on TV one night. I could hardly believe my ears.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 07:46 PM

Your ears are the wrong organ for a vagina Murray......just thought I'd mention it.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: Desdemona
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 07:47 PM

Spaw---wouldn't that be "aural sex"?

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 07:56 PM

If so Des, Murray would have to have awfully big ears!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 08:14 PM

"Vagina Monologues" reminds me of a semi-famous work of erotica called "The Talking Jewels" (Les Bijoux indescrets)by Denis Diderot

see here for a few deatails..(must have been only semi-famous, as Google gets only one hit in English...but 600+ in French)

If you read French, the text is here

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 08:30 PM

At risk of being "Non PC" Who? Me??

Why did the housewife cross the road ?


"Never mind that, Why wasn't she in the %$^&*% kitchen ?"

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 08:40 PM

I've said this elsewhere, and I think it's worth saying again here...

Men who are good at cooking and cleaning, and who can bake good bread are the sexiest men on earth.

And don't worry about the grey hairs, honest annie, just look at Emmie Lou Harris. I've got more than the usual amount of grey hair for someone my age, myself, and I get a lot of compliments about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: Desdemona
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 08:42 PM

I work with a woman who has the most gorgeous grey hair, all the way down to her waist. She does all sorts of amazing things with it (fancy braids & up-does, etc.), or just leaves it loose; she gets millions of compliments on it!

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 08:46 PM

Part of the reason the question come up about women's 'place', is that for many years in most societies men have attempted to define what women's place was! Needless to say, many women took exception.

I think it is sad that many women 'need' women-only discussion groups and identity seminars, but with only a small % of men..(and some women!) willing to treat them as fully equal/important, there MUST be some way to sort out their feelings in a supportive atmosphere.

There will always be differences in the way most' men and 'most' women see the universe, but it should not affect the concept of who is competent and able to make important decisions.

You think this sounds obvious??...you should meet certain men I have known!

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: Desdemona
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 08:51 PM

Bill D.---you're right, it IS sad that in this day & age people still feel thay have to segregate themselves (by gender or other criteria) in order to feel safe & supported. I have a husband & 3 sons I love dearly, and many male friends as well; I suppose if pressed I'd say that I'm a feminist, but that hardly seems to need acknowledging in the 3rd millenium! The idea that being pro-female means being anti-male is just ludicrous, but too many people still look at things that way; no progress can ever be made with that attitude!

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 09:08 PM

Karen and I live in a different relationship and the reactions we get from both men and women shows a lot about the way they view the whole gender tradition question. I spent the day doing wash, cooking the meals, doing the dishes, etc. Karen got some rest (after a hectic week last week on all fronts) and helped fold wash.

I am a househusband. That gets very interesting reactions from many. I am everything from a saint to a freeloader and neither is the truth. Karen is everything from a bad Mom to a controlling bitch and neither of those are true either, in fact they're totally laughable to anyone who knows Karen. But even among casual acquaintences, the lifestyle is so untraditional in this country and culture that it's hard for many to really get a grasp on what it's like.

Teachers are always referring to Mom as the primary caregiver and my son Michael thinks THAT would be weird! Things can change over time, but until we pack up the stereotypes along with the high button shoes, progress is going to be slow!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: hesperis
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 09:08 PM

WOW - that "Vagina Monologues" thing is SOOOOOO cool! Wish I could see it!

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: Amos
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 09:35 PM

Thanks, Desdemona. Umm...I guess i'd like to read the hard copy first!! LOL!!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: The Pooka
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 09:40 PM

A woman's place is wherever she chooses to go. Period. (Um, so to speak.) We men should be similarly unrestricted. OKOK, provided we've got the Ears for it, Mr. 'Spaw. Right on, honest annie.

Re the "Vagina Monologues": here in Connecticut not too long ago, a billboard along a major highway advertised this play. One of our enlightened state legislators, of the Male persuasion of course, was so deeply shocked and offended by the public display of that WORD, that he introduced a bill to ban such advertising in close proximity to highways. Thought it might cause accidents due to lascivious distraction of drivers. Plus, *children* might see it! Evidently this representative doesn't get out much & believed that "Vagina" is a Dirty Word. Which, come to think of it, sort of symbolizes the whole problem, doesn't it? Fortunately the legislature decided to punt, and the bill died in the Committee on Unconstitutional Proposals by Idiots.

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: Desdemona
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 09:59 PM

It's always buged me that a father who's involved with his children in a hands-on, diaper-changing, nose-wiping, play-date-attending, bath-giving way is regarded as a "saint" or as being "whipped", when those same tasks are just expected of any mother of even rudimentary competence! Most astonishing is that these stereotypical, unbalanced attitudes so often come from WOMEN!

People need to arrange their lives in the ways that work for them, and the relative allocation of specific responsibilities has exactly zero to do with gender (with the possible exception of breast-feeding. Spaw?)!

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: sophocleese
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 10:42 PM

Well a few years ago my Mom was at a March in Toronto (one of the Days of Action inspired by the Mike Harris Tories) she bought three pins; one for herself, one for me and one for my daughter. They say "A Woman's Place is in the Struggle". I like them.

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: SINSULL
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 11:21 PM

Damn! I have spent 50+ years trying to figure out my place and I am no closer than when I started. Please! Point me in the right direction and when "in place" I will stay put.
Spaw - Karen is a controlling bitch? That's hilarious! And Mother Teresa walked the streets...well, actually she did but...Karen? When was the last time you were allowed to touch the TV remote? I thought so.

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: Amos
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 12:02 AM

Desdemona, I suggest you not invite Spaw for a breastfeed. I suspect he has an addicitive personality. He has a record over in the Temple of the Golden Globes as a pure zealot, of the sort that gives organized religion a bad name, don't you know...

Anyway, you know, your place is wherever you say it is, but don't say I didn't warn ya!!

:>)

A

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 12:15 AM

I have yet to find a "proper place" for any of the important women in my life...they are all far too subtle and complex to present any such simple or obvious solution!

(joking, okay?)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: Wincing Devil
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 01:03 AM

Dear Honest Annie:

I'm sorry you got pounced on the 1st time you tried to post. Mudcat IS a friendly place, it truly is. Just remember, whatever you say, you can rest assured someone will take offense. Tell someone it's a beautiful day, and they'll start a tirade about how we need rain to cure the doubt.

Please come back often, listen, reply, & post. I'm posting this publicly instead of in a PM (Personal Message) because I think everyone should hear it.

Again, welcome to Mudcat!

Wincing Devil

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 01:12 AM

It takes more than a bit of rain to cure my doubts... :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 02:33 AM

It rains a LOT in Juneau year 'round. One summer we had a comparatively dry season- it still rained but not as often as commonly. I said to an old timer, Just what would you call a drought in Juneau?

She fired back, WELCOME!

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: DaveJ
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 05:25 AM

A woman's place is in "The House"


& "the Senate" &

the White House.

I can't wait for the the day when I hear some stuffy old jouralist or general having to say, "Madame President."

Davej

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: DaveJ
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 05:27 AM

er.."journalist"...where is my spell checker when I need it?

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From:
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 08:04 AM

There seem to be many more local folkie-blokies than folkie-women in terms of who does the performing at sessions etc. Whilst that suits me because I prefer the company of men - I do sometimes wonder why - whether there might be an element of the man's place is to be active (the do-er) while the women's place is to passive (the supporter).
Of course it could be completely incidental - but anyone else have a view on the performerly differences between the genders?
Another apalling thought occurs to me - perhaps I'm only noticing the men!!!!!

Kris

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: kendall
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 08:28 AM

Carol C, I cook, clean and bake bread; surely there must be more to it! Let's face it , many men are afraid of women and they need to "Keep them in their place". I dont mean the kind of fear that makes you want to destroy, it's more of a "jealous of their power" fear. You dont think so? read, THE CHALACE AND THE BLADE. there was a time in history(before the Mycenean era) when women were in charge. You have heard of the Amazons? Check it out. Beware of stereotypes. As Jean Harris said in her book, STRANGER IN TWO WORLDS, "Stereotypes afford us the luxury of not thinking; but, eventually, they extract the PRICE of not thinking." We men think that a riddle such as "Why do women have small feet? answer, so they can stand closer to the sink. If you dont dig too deep, that is mildly humorous, but, such things tend to perpetuate the negative side of the "battle of the sexes." Ethnic humor is the same thing, and often much worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: Amos
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 08:36 AM

Kendall, you are absolutely right, but on the other hand, stereotypes are very valuable for leverage. Look at the mileage you get out of being a Down East Curmudgeon and a Sexy Senior Citizen!! LOL!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 09:16 AM

Um, kendall, is your whole post addressed to me, or just the first sentance?

I'll tell you (or anyone whose interested) something I've noticed lately... I've noticed that there are a lot of men these days, particularly younger ones, who find competent women sexy. Which is really nice, in my opinion, and quite sexy in and of itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 09:18 AM

(correction - anyone *who is interested. sheesh.)

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: Amos
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 09:31 AM

Carol,

Offhand, I don't know many men who really find incompetent women sexy, at least not for very long. It doesn't make for good survival in the long term. You know that song about dinosaurs? Their brains were small, and they died.... **bg**

Regards,

A

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 10:06 AM

"That song about dinosaurs", Amos ? You meant to say "Mark Graham's song about dinosaurs", didn't you ?

Murray (in pedantic mode).

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: Duckboots
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 10:13 AM

I always thought my 'proper place' would have been 'Heather, Queen of Scots'.

But I went to Canada instead. I guess if they want me back, they'll let me know.

duckboots

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 10:17 AM

I just want you to know that you are "Heather, Queen of 'Fielding, Patterson, Swan, and Lane' as well as "Heather, Queen of Jed and Mick (especially when they are looking for great conversation at the pub down the street)". The title carries no property, but a great deal of love, respect, and admiration. Oh yeah, and maybe the most important.............."Heather, Queen of Miss Ciara's friends". I came home to "no fair, Da, you got to spend time with Heather and I didn't".

Love ya,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: Kim C
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 11:09 AM

Everyone has different talents & abilities - some are what you would call "gender-specific" and others aren't.

There's a book called "20,000 Years of Women's Work" that gives an idea of why we consider some things to be "women's work." Pretty interesting. It says that women did the housekeeping and textile work and all that because somebody had to take care of the kids while the men went out hunting! Things like spinning, weaving, sewing, can easily be set aside to care for a crying child.

All members of a household have things they're good at. I'm a great cook, but a lousy housekeeper. So he cleans, I cook. I like to cook. If it were the other way around, fine, it would be the other way around. If either of us made enough money for the other to stay home and do whatever, fine.

I do a lot of girly things - not because I feel obligated, but because I Like Them. I also do a few manly things - I like to shoot, throw tomahawks, watch racing and drink beer. So I guess it's all relative. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: Amos
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 11:28 AM

Murray:

I did not, no.

But I am glad to know the author's name, and in the future it will be what I mean to say, even when I forget this valuable gem of information and say somnething else instead.

:>)

A

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 11:53 AM

I suppose I should have said "broadly competent". Or competent in areas of endeavor outside those traditionally reserved for women, or outside the home.

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: C-flat
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 11:55 AM

As my partner has a very demanding job and has less time at home than me, a lot of the primary care of our young daughter has come my way. As a result I've encountered a great deal of role-predudice especially at school where the staff seem to feel that by discussing our daughter's development with me they're only passing messages through me to my partner! It's assumed that because of my gender I'm less competant or a disinterested party! Whilst my partner Julie earns more than I do, our "roles" do slip into a more conventional stereotype socially. In restaurants, for example, I would be the one who carries the wallet regardless of who put the money in it! I would automatically "hold the door" for a member of the opposite sex. It's difficult to say wether we act this way out of a need to fit with convention but we are comfortable in this old fashioned role playing and while logic tells us that we should equally share all tasks and family roles there seem to be some areas that we instinctively adopt traditional views. Interestingly, I'm told that men attending the West-End show "The Vagina Monologues" are NOT asked to pay, (ladies treat)

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: GUEST,native
Date: 12 Mar 02 - 08:49 AM

Item about dinosaurs small brains and died,is correct but did you know that some dinosaurs lived 300 years

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 Mar 02 - 10:40 PM

As do some turtles today. I don't get the connection.
I would be more interested in knowing where a man's "proper place" is. Any takers?

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: hesperis
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 12:55 AM

....hmmmmmm....

A man's proper place is right where I want him. *bg*

Seriously though, we are really all just people. And I think that it would be best if all people were somewhat competent at any given life skill. It just makes it easier on each individual to have that foundation, and gender doesn't even enter into that. Neither does gender enter into what you want to do after that foundation, that's a matter of personal choice.

(Though I definitely appreciate the differences in biology!)

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: GUEST,native
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 07:34 PM

Lighten up............. Awoman was driving on a main highway,when her car phone rang...she heard from her husband to be careful because he had heard on the radio that there was a car going along the highway,in the wrong direction..His wife said to him"ONE CAR"..Theres hundreds of them..........

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: WyoWoman
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 09:05 PM

I like to have a martini
Two at the very most.
After three I'm under the table
After four I'm under my host ...

Now THERE's a woman's place fer ya ...

WW

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: Amos
Date: 15 Mar 02 - 01:00 AM

Get it SAID, SIster Rue!!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 02:27 AM

Given the comments you posted "Spaw"

WHY did you give this thread this title?

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 10:53 AM

As if you care............But on the off chance that you do (and did not refresh this one as you did so many others last night, just for the hell of it), then it had to do with another thread title that was running and the "proper place" of women. Hopefully at this point you've had the time to check out the book I suggested and have seen what a great place women have had in folk and country music. Yeah, I was hoping to draw some attention to this one because the subject is interesting, especially since so many of the trad ballads that were modified in the mountains were done so from a woman's point of view, in that particular culture and at that particular time.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Women in their 'Proper Place'
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 11:08 AM

I've a cute wee button I wear proudly, which says:

"Loreena Bobbit for Surgeon General"