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Non music (sort of) ...Pronunciation ???

khandu 11 Mar 02 - 07:57 PM
Dave the Gnome 11 Mar 02 - 08:05 PM
katlaughing 11 Mar 02 - 08:39 PM
Bullfrog Jones 11 Mar 02 - 08:41 PM
khandu 11 Mar 02 - 08:42 PM
Ebbie 11 Mar 02 - 08:47 PM
Ebbie 11 Mar 02 - 08:50 PM
khandu 11 Mar 02 - 08:52 PM
Brían 11 Mar 02 - 08:58 PM
Bullfrog Jones 11 Mar 02 - 09:06 PM
Big Mick 11 Mar 02 - 09:06 PM
Amos 11 Mar 02 - 09:43 PM
KT 11 Mar 02 - 09:44 PM
Big Mick 11 Mar 02 - 11:10 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 11 Mar 02 - 11:26 PM
catspaw49 11 Mar 02 - 11:41 PM
Amos 11 Mar 02 - 11:49 PM
InOBU 12 Mar 02 - 07:30 AM
GUEST,Declan 12 Mar 02 - 07:46 AM
greg stephens 12 Mar 02 - 07:47 AM
InOBU 12 Mar 02 - 11:15 AM
McGrath of Harlow 12 Mar 02 - 03:47 PM
SharonA 12 Mar 02 - 04:53 PM
SharonA 12 Mar 02 - 06:15 PM
redhorse 12 Mar 02 - 06:28 PM
SharonA 12 Mar 02 - 06:42 PM
Mr Red 12 Mar 02 - 07:52 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 12 Mar 02 - 08:20 PM
Noreen 12 Mar 02 - 08:41 PM
Amergin 12 Mar 02 - 08:52 PM
redhorse 13 Mar 02 - 05:24 PM
SharonA 13 Mar 02 - 06:02 PM
GUEST,Irish Madboy 26 Jun 09 - 10:12 AM
MartinRyan 26 Jun 09 - 10:32 AM
GUEST,leeneia 26 Jun 09 - 10:32 AM
MartinRyan 26 Jun 09 - 10:45 AM
Jack Campin 26 Jun 09 - 10:55 AM
MartinRyan 26 Jun 09 - 11:14 AM
MartinRyan 26 Jun 09 - 11:18 AM
Jack Campin 26 Jun 09 - 04:25 PM
MartinRyan 26 Jun 09 - 04:55 PM
catspaw49 26 Jun 09 - 05:08 PM
Jack Campin 27 Jun 09 - 03:51 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 27 Jun 09 - 04:35 PM
Uncle_DaveO 27 Jun 09 - 07:44 PM
catspaw49 27 Jun 09 - 07:50 PM
Art Thieme 27 Jun 09 - 07:55 PM
Art Thieme 27 Jun 09 - 08:00 PM
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Subject: Non music (sort of) ...Pronunciation ???
From: khandu
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 07:57 PM

I have heard many different pronunciations of these words. How are they really pronounced?

Takamine (as in the guitars)... I say "Tock'-a-mean'-ie"

Uilleann (as in pipes)...I don't say anything!

There are others but I can't remember them at the moment.

khandu


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Subject: RE: Non music (sort of) ...Pronunciation ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 08:05 PM

I love to hear the guitars pronounced as 'take mine' ;-)

Doesn't help I know...

Cheers

Dave the Gnome


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Subject: RE: Non music (sort of) ...Pronunciation ???
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 08:39 PM

I've heard the second pronounced "yew - lynn" which, I think, is correct.


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Subject: RE: Non music (sort of) ...Pronunciation ???
From: Bullfrog Jones
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 08:41 PM

Ill-ian pipes, I think, but what about bodhran --- borr-an or bow-ren? As for Takamine, tacky-mean springs to mind!


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Subject: RE: Non music (sort of) ...Pronunciation ???
From: khandu
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 08:42 PM

I have heard it pronounced "ellen" which, I think, is not correct!

Perhaps InOBU will see this!

khandu


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Subject: RE: Non music (sort of) ...Pronunciation ???
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 08:47 PM

Isn't it funny! Terms we are all familiar with- and no dares to name! To myself, I say: Tack'amean and eel'ian- but not aloud!


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Subject: RE: Non music (sort of) ...Pronunciation ???
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 08:50 PM

I forgot; I also say bo'ron. Again, only to myself...


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Subject: RE: Non music (sort of) ...Pronunciation ???
From: khandu
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 08:52 PM

I say "bow-ron".

khandu


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Subject: RE: Non music (sort of) ...Pronunciation ???
From: Brían
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 08:58 PM

BOW-ron is pretty darn close,

For Uileann, try ILL-yun(It means elbow)

Brían


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Subject: RE: Non music (sort of) ...Pronunciation ???
From: Bullfrog Jones
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 09:06 PM

Just crept downstairs to check the dictionary (why am I doing this? It's 2 a.m. for God's sake!) Chambers gives bow-ran (the 'a' as in far) or borr-en, and oolian (my interpretation of their little signs). They have no opinion on Takamine. Can I go to bed now?


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Subject: RE: Non music (sort of) ...Pronunciation ???
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 09:06 PM

Brian has it, pretty close. Bodhran is pronounced differently in different places, but you are safe with BOWron. Take the y out of his phonetic for Uillean and you are pretty close. ILLun is close. The UI is the hard one to describe, but that is close.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Non music (sort of) ...Pronunciation ???
From: Amos
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 09:43 PM

I think TOCKameenie suits. I am delighted to hear how bodhran should be pronounced before I had the occasion to use it in speech and say BOD-ran!! LOL!!

A


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Subject: RE: Non music (sort of) ...Pronunciation ???
From: KT
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 09:44 PM

BOWron......Is that BOW as in what one does after a splendid performance or BOW as in bow and arrow? *BG*


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Subject: RE: Non music (sort of) ...Pronunciation ???
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 11:10 PM

Hi KT!! I miss our PM's. Guess I better git off me arse and send you one, eh?

It is BOW as in "take a bow". In some quarters it is pronounced BAHran, and in some areas it is pronounced BOEran. But you are safe with BOWron.


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Subject: RE: Non music (sort of) ...Pronunciation ???
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 11:26 PM

Even Shakespeare had trouble with uillean pipes. He called them "woolen" in one of his plays.


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Subject: RE: Non music (sort of) ...Pronunciation ???
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 11:41 PM

The UI Mick refers to is almost an "eh-i" kinda' sound....but as he said, hard to describe but once heard, relatively easy to say.

Tock-uh-meenie is it, generally just Tock will suffice though.

As for bodhran, well...........

I met her on a Monday and I drove her mad
With my Bow-Ron-Ron-Ron, my Bow-Ron-Ron.
She played with my tipper and I was glad
I had my Bow-Ron-Ron-Ron my Bow-Ron-Ron.

Oooooooo, my head was tight that night
Oooooooo, she held my tipper right
And then, when she pushed the skin
I loved my Bow-Ron-Ron-Ron, my Bow-Ron-Ron


Spaw


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Subject: RE: Non music (sort of) ...Pronunciation ???
From: Amos
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 11:49 PM

Jesus, Spaw, you get riper with age!! LOL!!

A


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Subject: RE: Non music (sort of) ...Pronunciation ???
From: InOBU
Date: 12 Mar 02 - 07:30 AM

Well, spending my time around a sh-- load of Uilleann pipers, (the proper collective term for us)... I can speak with as much athority as a member of the above collective... Ill - pronounced as in I'm not feeling very well from pumping these bloody things all night for two quid and ye eejits didn't stop yelling for five effing minuites... and in IN such as, so why don't ye's drop a couple of P IN the jar for the band on yer way out the door cause it's closing time and I have to go home and make dinner for the wife who really works for a living and we still cant pay the electiric bill, so you put it all together and you get ILL-IN pipes... which you can hear put together with some good music at Paddy O'Rielly's Music Pub on March 19th, 10pm, New York City, 2nd ave at 29th street, Sorcha Dorcha, the hardest working Celtic band in the world... and the plugomatic is turned on SPAW!
Cheers, Larry


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Subject: RE: Non music (sort of) ...Pronunciation ???
From: GUEST,Declan
Date: 12 Mar 02 - 07:46 AM

There's no right answer for some of these, it depends on which part of Ireland you come from, as there are different dialects of Gaelic in different parts of the country and the vowel sounds are quite different from say Kerry in the south to Donegal or Antrinm in the north (small n) of the country.

As I pronounce them Larry's Ill-In is quite closest (not exactly right but near enough. Bough-Rawn is more correct than Bough-Ron (not Bodram (a place in Turkey) or Birronne).

As for the guitars, I nearly bought one about 15 years ago, before the name was well known (at least in Ireland), but having had two guitars stolen in previous years, I didn't want to tempt fate by having a guitar that said Take Mine on it.


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Subject: RE: Non music (sort of) ...Pronunciation ???
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Mar 02 - 07:47 AM

I have made some study of the pronouncing of bodhran in Ireland( and elsewhere) and not only are all the variants used, but just how it is said depends whether the speaker is referring to it casually as a musical instrument, or is making offensive remarks about Germans/English/ Americans playing them session, when more exaggerated and humorous versions of the vowel sounds are used. That is also when the pronunciation "bod-ran" may legitimately be used. The sardonic exaggeration of the pronunciation is also directly proportional to the intricacy of the Celtic knotwork painted on the skin, and the quality of manufacture of the little leather bag the beater is kept in.


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Subject: RE: Non music (sort of) ...Pronunciation ???
From: InOBU
Date: 12 Mar 02 - 11:15 AM

I have always pronounced Bodhran as HuSSSSSSSSssssssssshhhh thereboy. Cheers, Larry


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Subject: RE: Non music (sort of) ...Pronunciation ???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Mar 02 - 03:47 PM

Drum


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Subject: RE: Non music (sort of) ...Pronunciation ???
From: SharonA
Date: 12 Mar 02 - 04:53 PM

Well, I sent e-mails to the contact addresses at the Takamine website. Let's see what THEY say about the pronunciation... and let's see if all four of them agree!


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Subject: RE: Non music (sort of) ...Pronunciation ???
From: SharonA
Date: 12 Mar 02 - 06:15 PM

One answer so far, from the Canada contact: "Tah-kah-meen'-ee"

E-mail to the Mexico contact was returned as undeliverable ("host unknown").


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Subject: RE: Non music (sort of) ...Pronunciation ???
From: redhorse
Date: 12 Mar 02 - 06:28 PM

normal Japanese pronunciation rules would suggest "Ta-ka-mi-nay". Taka means high: anyone know what "mine" means?


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Subject: RE: Non music (sort of) ...Pronunciation ???
From: SharonA
Date: 12 Mar 02 - 06:42 PM

Redhorse: Okay, but is the "mi" syllable pronounced "mee" ("m" with a long "e" sound) or "my" ("m" with a long "i" sound)? And which syllable is stressed?


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Subject: RE: Non music (sort of) ...Pronunciation ???
From: Mr Red
Date: 12 Mar 02 - 07:52 PM

OK then, what's the correct pronunciation of pedant?


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Subject: RE: Non music (sort of) ...Pronunciation ???
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Mar 02 - 08:20 PM

Wasn't the bodrhan stolen from the Inuit? What they drum on looks like the "Irish" instrument of torture, but it is larger- more boom for the buck.
Mr Red, there was a song- can't remember, but it is pounding in my head as pe-DANT, pe-DANT, pe-DANT ...


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Subject: RE: Non music (sort of) ...Pronunciation ???
From: Noreen
Date: 12 Mar 02 - 08:41 PM

Dicho, there's more skin on a polar bear than on a goat...


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Subject: RE: Non music (sort of) ...Pronunciation ???
From: Amergin
Date: 12 Mar 02 - 08:52 PM

according to Seamus Kennedy it is a BowWowRon.....


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Subject: RE: Non music (sort of) ...Pronunciation ???
From: redhorse
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 05:24 PM

SharonA: mee rather than my, and I think stress 1st and 3rd. Surely there must be a real Japanese speaker out there: I only managed a few months of evening classes


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Subject: RE: Non music (sort of) ...Pronunciation ???
From: SharonA
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 06:02 PM

Thanks, redhorse. I never took any classes, so you're doing 'way better than I am!

Here's more feedback from the e-mails I sent out:

More from Canada: "Thanks for your inquiry. I must have heard a thousand variations on this myself--I'll try and spell it out as clearly as I can.

tak = Talk, like to "talk to a friend"
a = "uh"
min = mean, like "I mean to be there"
e = long e ("eeee")

Put it together and you have "talk-uh-MEAN-eee". As it is a Japanese name (for the mountain where the factory is located) the accent is on the second-to-last syllable."

From the UK: "If I spell it out fenetically it it is pronounced... 'Taka-meeney' " (I don't know how much credence to give a guy who misspells "phonetically"!)

From the US: A form letter saying thanks for your question and maybe we'll get around to answering it in the next 10 days or so...


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Subject: RE: Non music (sort of) ...Pronunciation ???
From: GUEST,Irish Madboy
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 10:12 AM

uilleann pipes, just drop the U ill ann

Bowron as in Take a bow and ron as in the "do ron ron"

The Gas thing is,In Ireland we have to learn Irish in School, growing up as english is used pretty much everywhere

Man it is a hard language to learn

any other questions?


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Subject: RE: Non music (sort of) ...Pronunciation ???
From: MartinRyan
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 10:32 AM

Didn't notice this posting at the time:

Even Shakespeare had trouble with uillean pipes. He called them "woolen" in one of his plays.

Uilleann pipes are much more recent than Shakespeare. Originally called Union pipes, the current name crept in partly as a result of a musical historian mistakenly making that woolen/elbow connection.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Non music (sort of) ...Pronunciation ???
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 10:32 AM

I had dinner once with Frances Black of the Black family. She pronounced it BOW - ran. Give the r in 'ran' the slightest of trills. The a is short, as in hat, but it's subtle. Halfway between short a and 'uh'. BOW rhymes with 'wow'.


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Subject: RE: Non music (sort of) ...Pronunciation ???
From: MartinRyan
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 10:45 AM

The Black family came from Rathlin Island in Northern Ireland. As a rough guide, the further north you go, the harder the O becomes - and the shorter the A, in bodhran!
;>)

Regards

p.s. the slightly rolled R is a good spot!


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Subject: RE: Non music (sort of) ...Pronunciation ???
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 10:55 AM

BODran. It's an English (or Scots) word.

And "Uillean" is pronounced "Irish".


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Subject: RE: Non music (sort of) ...Pronunciation ???
From: MartinRyan
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 11:14 AM

BODran. It's an English (or Scots) word.

Evidence, please?

Regards


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Subject: RE: Non music (sort of) ...Pronunciation ???
From: MartinRyan
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 11:18 AM

Click here for more than you ever wanted to know about the origins of the word bodhran

Regards


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Subject: RE: Non music (sort of) ...Pronunciation ???
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 04:25 PM

BODran. It's an English (or Scots) word.
Evidence, please?

You're using it in an English-language discussion yourself.

The pronunciation it has in some other language, and the language it originated in, are irrelevant to how it's pronounced in Scots or English. I knew the word as BODran for something like 20 years before I first heard "BOUGHrahn".

You refer to the capitals of France and Austria as Paree and Veen? You want us all to start speaking Proto-Indo-European?


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Subject: RE: Non music (sort of) ...Pronunciation ???
From: MartinRyan
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 04:55 PM

You refer to the capitals of France and Austria as Paree and Veen?

Not often - but I'd be happier if you'll allow me to distinguish between motor racing and tumescent sexual organs.

More seriously, your argument gives a precedence to the written word which is odd - especially for anyone whose mother tongue is English.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Non music (sort of) ...Pronunciation ???
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 05:08 PM

Good point Martin! I guess he says "flav-hour" and "col-hour" and sees no "hyume-hour" in it at all............Seriously JC, anyone who says "shyte" don't know shit, or jack-shit in your case! (;<))

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Non music (sort of) ...Pronunciation ???
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 03:51 PM

There are lots of pronunciations derived from spelt forms of borrowed words in English. Do you say "yo-OORRT" for "yogurt" and "kershk" for "kiosk"? (Both from Turkish, which is a lot closer to English in phonology than Irish is). Or virtually every word borrowed from an Indian language that has a short "a" in it?


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Subject: RE: Non music (sort of) ...Pronunciation ???
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 04:35 PM

Such a lot of nonsense about the Inuit qilaut.


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Subject: RE: Non music (sort of) ...Pronunciation ???
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 07:44 PM

Aha! A moment of enlightenment!

MartinRyan's link produced (inter alia) the following:

That the word bodhrán derives ultimately from the Gaelic word bodhar seems clear ***. Although taken as a given here, the derivation will be further discussed below. The word bodhar as an adjective, generally meaning deaf in both Modern Irish and modern Scots Gaelic

That explains a lot!

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: Non music (sort of) ...Pronunciation ???
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 07:50 PM

I like your thinking on this one Dave!


Spaw


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Subject: RE: Non music (sort of) ...Pronunciation ???
From: Art Thieme
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 07:55 PM

What DID happen to that Cuban kid---Uilllean Gonzales???

Art


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Subject: RE: Non music (sort of) ...Pronunciation ???
From: Art Thieme
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 08:00 PM

As I've said before, bodhran was originally invented as am IUD for Catherine The reat.


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