BS: Irish food question ?

Subject: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 11:20 AM

Yesterday a group of us played some tunes for St. Paddy's Day at a local bar & restaurant. As we played, the waiters were bringing out the typical Corned Beef and Cabbage. One of our group said off-handedly, "You'd think for an island nation they'd have a fish dish." And that made me wonder, why isn't seafood cuisine not associated with Ireland, or do we here in America just not hear about it ?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 11:22 AM

Sorry, I forgot to add my ID.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: Morticia
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 11:44 AM

what about Dublin oysters? they're pretty well-known.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST,Noreen
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 11:50 AM

And Dublin Bay prawns...
and the famous fish restaurants at Kinsale...
and countless others...

I think it may be that you in America have stereotypes about Irish food, notably the typical Corned Beef and Cabbage!

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: MMario
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 11:56 AM

So educate us - What would be typical Irish dishes - especially on a holiday? Are there any fish seafood dishes you would call typical Irish - or distinctively Irish?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: Sorcha
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 12:09 PM

There are NO Irish recipes for fish/seafood at my favorite recipe site.......baked ham, apple tart, potatoes in any form, colcannon, champ, Guinnness cake, potato farls (bread),boxty, nettle soup, AHA!
I have two in my book for Fried Herring and baked salmon!

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: MMario
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 12:12 PM

Guinness Cake?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: Sorcha
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 12:17 PM

Like a dark fruit cake.....
4 eggs
1 lb. flour
1 lb. sugar (caster, I presume)
1 & 1/2 lb dried fruit
1 tsp baking soda
1/2 lb butter
1/4 lb cherries
1/4 lb mixed peel
1/4 lb almonds
pinch nutmeg
1 bottle Guinness
1 lemon
Rub butter into flour,mix well with dry ingredients. Add Guinness, juice from the lemon, and beaten eggs. Bake in an 8" tin in a slow oven about 3 hrs.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: MMario
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 12:18 PM

Never mind - found two classes of Guinness Cake - one of which is a beer enriched fruit cake (making fruit cake is against my religion - as the Bible clearly states that the entire creation's worth of fruit cake was created late the evening of the sixth day - so god would have something to have for Tea on the seventh day.) but the other is a chocolate cake - and that sounds intrigueing!

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: IanC
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 12:28 PM

I wonder if people are maybe asking the wrong question. Most food dishes are really regional rather than national. It's only outside a nation that "typical national dishes" usually exist.

I know that there's an annual Oyster Festival at Strangford Co. Down where not only oysters but other shellfish are consumed by the bucketfull. No doubt others can enlighten us more, but you should be aware that - in general - seafood is usually only traditional within about 10 miles or so of the sea.

Cheers!
Ian

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 12:30 PM

Traditionally a large proportion of the Irish population lived on the breadline, working for English absentee landlords. Potatoes were one of the mainstays of their diet - usually grown in small areas around the Landlord's main cash crop of cereals. For proof of that, just look up the statistics of how many died or were forced to emigrate because of the potato famine. Much of the haute cuisine would have come from the English mainland. Many working class Irish today, still prefer a large percentage of their food boiled (it's the easiest way with the cheepest cuts of meat) and potato and cabage are usually the vegetables.

I can remember working in Dublin and enjoying wonderful seafood (Dublin Bay prawns and lobster still bring memories), but even in the mid 60's this would not have been the average type of meal enjoyed in Ireland. Obviously, things have changed, and the current younger generation will be tending to eat the same sort of menu as most other people in the British Isles.

Dishes that I remember from Ireland include Colcanon (a distant relative of Bubble and Sqeak) and various types of Black (and White) Pudding.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: PeteBoom
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 12:33 PM

Les, it depends a bit on what you mean by "Irish" when it comes to food.

Let's start with that American dish, corned-beef and cabbage. That's what it is - American - it was eaten by the poor in large cities because it was CHEAP. Since many people presume that it is Irish, it gets served up in "Irish" establishments in the US (and elsewhere) along with green beer - at least annually.

Where I was in Ireland in the early '80's, the rural West, there was still some association of shellfish and sea food as "famine food" among many of the older "locals". Most of them are gone now, and as the areas become more homogenized I expect the last of the old taboos will go away as well.

Milk, cheeses, breads, eggs, pork/ham, vegetables, tubers made up the bulk of the diet for many years. There are three of four good cookbooks on tradtional foods I've seen (in the States). There are many more contemporary cookbooks with some really fine recipes from some of the better eating establishments around Ireland. The ironic thing is, many of the chefs who prepared the newer recipes are from mainland Europe and are not "Irish" at all.

In either case, I suspect your best bet would be to find a GOOD import shop and see if they have a cookbook of tradtional fare. Then bring it to the place you were playing at and tell them to cook real Irish food. Good luck - probably going to be corned beef and over-cooked cabbage again next year.

Regards-

Pete

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 01:04 PM

Remember fish don't just live in the sea, and there are rivers and lakes all over Ireland. The best fish I ever had was poached salmon trout from Lough Neagh. I'm not too sure how it was cooked, just fried I think.

There are always Irish mussels in the supermarket here, so I imagine they get exported to other places as well.

As for corned beef and cabbage, I've heard of that, but it's just a substitute for the real thing, boiled bacon and cabbage.

I imagine there are a lot of fish recipes from Newfoundland, and that counts as more Irish than anything - I've a recipe and poetry book from there somewhere, and it's got about a dozen different recipes for Colcannon, and about as many ways of spelling it.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST,Hamshank
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 01:34 PM

Me own grannie used to tell me they don't eat corned beef in the ould country. So is it true? The pub grub at "Fado", one of my favorite Irish pubs here in DC (and they claim to be totally authentic)doesn't include corned beef OR cabbage, as far as I know. They do serve an "Irish" breakfast that includes postively deeelicious Irish back bacon, blood pudding, fried tomatoes, sausages, eggs and tatties. Whether that's a proper Irish breakfast, I don't pretend to know, but it's damn good. So's their fish and chips.

HS

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: DougR
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 01:55 PM

Dare I ask? What is blood pudding?

I know of no respectable Irish Pub in Phoenix, Arizona that serves green beer ANYTIME! Jimmy O'Connor, Seamus McCraphy, the whole lot of 'em would shudder at the thought.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha.
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 02:26 PM

Strange dish that Corned Beef and Cabbage, it must be a US meal, I have never seen it served up here in north-east Ireland. And as for typical Irish dishes they are also a scarce commodity, all I see the young people eating is that bloody awful fast food,yes we have MacDonalds in every wee town in Ireland. Obesity has not quiet reached US standards, but give it time. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 02:31 PM

Black Pudding is a sausage, with blood as a main ingredient. Pig's blood I believe. Maybe in DC they thought calling it Black Pudding might get misunderstood - though of course it is black. Or perhaps they are hoping to attract a Klingon clentele to whom the name Blood Pudding might have more appeal...

Slice it and fry it. Very tasty.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 02:36 PM

One thing I remember from being in Ireland in 1994 was that they had (this is their words, not mine) only just figured out that garlic could be eaten by humans, not merely fed to pigs as medicine. What I ate that seemed Irish to me, in that I found it everywhere, was the best breakfasts in the universe. Potatoes like good poetry. Pudding = blood sausage, Americans beware (I love blood sausage but the spouse was surprised). Sauteed mushrooms as a side. Yum yum YUM yum yum. I'd go back just for another brunch at Beuleys in Galway!

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 02:37 PM

Ard Mhacha; To the best of my knowledge, as stated above by someone else, Corned beef and cabbage is an American dish. My wife and I had fish for St.Patrick's day dinner yesterday. I agree with you about the fast food it is pretty heinous. You'll never get an apology from ray Kroc so let me apologise for my nation. The other think I find rerehensible is the penchant for ruining beer by putting food coloring in it. American suds are weak enough that they really don't ned any help. Give me a good pint of Guinness or Harp any day. Have a good week all and Kindest regards, Neil

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 02:37 PM

Pete Boom has a point- with immigrants to the new world, cheap and filling food such as corned-beef (not the fine deli type we like) and cabbage became a necessity. Moreover, the "huddled masses" were not from the classes who developed fancy recipes.
In Alberta rural areas, we have many Ukrainians who were subsistence tillers of the soil at home, and homesteaded when they came here. Their "soul" food is bland and filling. Other Ukrainians, from cities, who settled in cities in Canada and started up in business, brought many tasty recipes with them. Generalizations are seldom valid for a whole people.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: Melani
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 02:46 PM

Poached salmon? Don't you get arrested for that? ;-) I would guess pork is a big feature in Irish cuisine because pigs are easy to raise and will eat most anything, like the household leftovers, and they have big litters.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 05:17 PM

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend anyone by implying corned beef and cabbage was "typical" of real Irish food -- it's just what we see served here in the American northwest - and yes many of the bars do pour gallons of ghastly green beer on St. Pat's, but in latter years I see more people in the bars drinking Guiness, a consciousness of its quality has finally arrived.

I was merely curious about the fishing aspect, and some of the replies above have somewhat answered that.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: Penny S.
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 05:54 PM

I have just consulted my book of Irish Festive food, none of which I have ever got round to cooking. It's by Darina Allen of the Ballymaloe cookery school. It contains three wet items, the above oysters, salmon, and carragheen moss pudding, which I have always intended to try, but can't get the weed.

It also contains Corned Beef and Cabbage, suggesting boiled bacon as an alternative. Odd, in view of the above.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST,Sheila L.
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 06:04 PM

What about the world famous Irish smoked salmon? Highly thought of and expensive, to boot.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 06:24 PM

Plenty of fish in Ireland.I've fished for mackerel off Goleen, played Bantry Mussel Fair(and eaten plenty), Moville Oyster Fair,picked and eaten winkles near sligo.There's fish everywhere.But to be fair, the real business is boiled bacon and cabbage. In Ireland they understand bacon.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 07:10 PM

Mairteoil shaillte le cabaiste--or corned beef and cabbage, should rightly be considered traditional Irish food, though not a meal exclusive to the nation of Ireland by any means. It was once a popular winter dish in rural and urban areas like Dublin, particularly before the advent of refrigeration.

The term "corned" comes from the English term corn, meaning any small particle, such as the coarse-grained salt which was used for curing.

In Ireland, it is sometimes referred to as "salt beef" and two cuts can be used, either the brisket or the silverside, or tail end. Pork was also often cured in the same fashion. Corned beef was also eaten traditionally at Christmas time, usually St. Stephen's Day, and was known as mairteoil spiosraithe, or spiced beef. It was found in most butcher shops, sometimes tied with red ribbon or a sprig of holly, and was cooked with Guinness.

Cabbage is a traditional staple food in Ireland too, though it is not a native vegetable. It was likely introduced to Ireland sometime in the 16th century. The potato is widely believed to have been introduced even later, and probably didn't come into use until the late 17th century.

Seafood, or sea fish as it is sometimes called, is also traditional. Iasc-fish, and iasc sliogach-shellfish, are of pretty high quality in Ireland, and have formed a major part of the diet of the island for thousands of years. Marine vegetation is also very important--the sea vegetables of dulse, carageen, laver or sloke, were important ingredients in soup.

But salmon, prawns, oysters, mussels, plaice, lobster, mackerel, haddock, cod, whiting, hake (a favorite of the Spanish fishermen)--all were once mainstays in the traditional Irish diet. Some were more common among the poor, some more common among the wealthy. But with all the miles of coastal and inland waterways, the main reason why fish isn't eaten as often as it once was is due to overfishing. Nonetheless, the chippers still do a huge amount of business, and Irish fine dining establishments will always have several fish dishes on the menu.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: paddymac
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 07:37 PM

I think of "soul food" of any ethnicity as primarily the staple foods of the less affluent slice of the society. It usually features readily available inexpensive ingredients, often rich in carbohydrates. The more affluent folks of any society tend to have greater access to more elegant cuisines, including whatever extra-national delicacies happen to be popular and available. I recall from years ago learning that the Vietnamese language did not have a word equivalent to "fat" (as in overweight), and instead described such folk as "rich", presumptively meaning that one had to be wealthy to be overweight. Interesting view.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 07:48 PM

It is also important to remember that poor people went hungry and suffered from famines and pestilent crops across Europe--that condition wasn't unique to Ireland by any means, even though the potato famine of 1845-1850s was unprecedented.

BTW, another popular Irish country dish (besides the aforementioned bacon and cabbage) was lamb cooked with cabbage.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 07:58 PM

I'm wondering if we may be having a misunderstanding here abour corn beef, a bit like the one you can get about mincemeat and minced meat. Is corn beef the same as corned beef? And do they mean the same thing on both sides of the Atlantic.

The stuff I'm talking about comes in tins from places like Argentina and Botswana, and it's already cooked in the tin. We eat it all right, both in Ireland and England. It's one of the original convenience food, slap it on the plate with spuds or cabbage or baked beans or anything where you feel a bit of instant meat might be handy. But boiled bacon, now that's something a bit more culturally definitive.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: DougR
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 08:16 PM

The corned beef with which I am familiar, and cooked yesterday, comes in a package with a packet of pickling seasonings. It is beef brisket which has been brined in a salt solution for a period of time. There is a point cut and a flat cut, with the flat cut, which has more lean meat the most expensive. Point cuts were selling at the local markets for ninety-seven cents a pound (special St. Patty prices). Flat cuts sold for one dollar seveenty-eight cents a pound. Most packets weith 2.5 to 3.5 pounds. I cooked mine in a slow cooker with turnips, celery, onion, carrots and red potatoes. The wedges of cabbage are added the last three of a total of twelve hours of cooking.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 08:26 PM

Definitely doesn't sound like what we'd call corn beef (or corned beef - I suspect that officially only one of those terms is correct.)

And it doesn't sound like anything I've ever come across in Ireland. (But then cookery is normally regional rather than national, as has been pointed out already in the thread.)

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: MMario
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 08:37 PM

We have the canned variety in the states too; it's a totally different thing in taste and texture then the cured brisket most people (here) think of when they say corned beef.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: alison
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 09:05 PM

the only corned beef I had came out of a tin... and was something you'd slice up and have with a salad.....

there are any amount of fish, my dad's freezer is always well stocked with rainbow and brown trout, and salmon, and many times we went out fishing and came back with enough mackerel to feed an army!!

oysters are plentiful too.....

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: DougR
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 12:41 AM

The Corned Beef, Alison and McGrath refer to are available in the U. S. too, but I would rank it alongside Spam. Edible, but ...

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 04:48 AM

Of course there's the story of the Irish publican who decided to offer "Irish Stew in a basket".

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 08:08 AM

The issue causing confusion isn't distance between cultures, but distances in time. Any decent book on Irish food history (and no, that doesn't include darling Darina Allen), will clearly explain that the corned beef and cabbage dish which some Irish Americans eat is in fact traditional. I say some Irish Americans because it is best not to make sweeping generalizations about 44 million people about anything. Those Irish Americans likely consider it one of many traditional Irish dishes NOT a "national dish" as some have suggested. It was a traditional dish anywhere that middle class farmers with cattle (dairy or beef) combined it with cabbage, which is throughout most of Ireland and Britain. In the era before refrigeration, salting meat was one of the main ways of preserving it. It really isn't any more complicated than that. As I pointed out, corning/curing with salt and spices was also done with pork, and lamb was also cooked with cabbage. If people can't understand that farmers of a hundred years ago eat differently than urbanites in wealthy countries eat today, then no amount of discussion is going to be relevant here.

What changes culturally about boiled brisket is the seasonings people use, and what they choose to cook/serve it with--in this case, cabbage. But many eastern European cultures combine meat and cabbage, and it is really no different a dish than what is sometimes referred to in the States as New England boiled dinner, which is considered an English dish by US food historians. Can be made with brisket of beef (cured in salt brine or otherwise), or ham. The most common eastern European dish associate culturally with those cultures is sausage and sauerkraut.

The point is, just because many contemporary Irish people aren't aware of the dish, doesn't mean that historically it wasn't a traditional dish. Most contemporary Irish people, like most people living in cities in the wealthy countries everywhere today, are pretty ignorant of things like the food their ancestors ate, unless it is still consumed.

Nowadays, if it isn't served at the fast food chippers, curry shops, or burger joints, a lot of people won't know about it in Ireland or Britain. The largest Irish immigrant populations went to North America between 1880 and 1920 from rural areas, when this dish was still eaten. Hence their association with it as a traditional food. As someone said above, it was one dish with which they were familiar (in a strange land), that was readily available.

Because corned beef and cabbage is no longer commonly known by some contemporary Irish urbanites doesn't mean that it isn't known by Irish farmers as a traditional dish, or that Irish Americans are idiots for claiming it as a traditional dish. Despite their prejudices against Irish Americans, I've often found that Irish people spouting off about how unIrish they are, come off sounding a whole lot more ignorant than the other way round.

How many Irish people know what traditional food anraith gle is? Not many, I'll venture, because most Irish people don't understand Irish or know about the history of Irish food and customs. And that, more than anything, accounts for the Irish claims that Irish Americans are stupid for believing that corned beef and cabbage is a traditional dish because they themselves don't eat it, and haven't encountered it personally.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 08:20 AM

Noone is saying Irish Americans are idiots for having "corned-beef" and cabbage as a traditional meal. It's clearly traditional among the American Irish anyway, and there are more of them than there are back in Ireland , and they are entitled to their own traditions. And traditions change. Maybe beef was more available and cheaper than bacon in the big American cities. It's not easy keeping a pig in a tenement block.

But it's interesting to identify what the food involved here actually is. And there clearly was a confusion here about what was meant by "corned beef" in this context.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 08:31 AM

I'm from Ireland myself, McGrath. I'm also a history buff, with a specific interest in the history and folklore of Irish food and diet.

And what is your expertise to claim that it is an American dish rather than a traditional Irish brought over with Irish immigrants? Could you give us some legitimate cites which prove that this is actually an American dish invented after Irish immigrants came to the New World, hmm?

No, I thought not.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 08:39 AM

M of H,

You are an absolute STAR!!!!

You've had me in stitches twice, this thread.

1. "The best fish I ever had was poached salmon trout from Lough Neagh. I'm not too sure how it was cooked, just fried I think."

Now maybe the salmon trout was poached from Lough Neagh and fried. Or maybe it was a slmon trout from Lough Neagh that had been cooked by poaching it (steaming in a fish kettle in the oven).

2. "Maybe beef was more available and cheaper than bacon in the big American cities. It's not easy keeping a pig in a tenement block."

Damn sight harder keeping cattle.

Priceless!! Brilliant!!!

Cheers,

Bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST,ed
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 08:49 AM

As for corned beef and cabbage being an American dish.that is a load of bollocks..they have been eating it in Newfoundland since the Irish arrived there and In Nova Scotia it has been a traditional dish for hundres of years. It came to those places from Ireland in the 16th and 17th century. Why is it so hard to accept that not EVERYTHING was invented in America.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 08:56 AM

Corned beef and cabbage , as we now know it, has its roots in Atlantic Canada..not in America. It is still a very common dish in Newfoundland and in Nova Scotia.In America I believe it is often called Jiggs dinner, after the cartoon character, but it is an east coast Canadian tradition , brought by the Irish who ate it as salt beef and cabbage. My Father , who came from Cork, was certainly very familiar with the dish.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha.
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 08:57 AM

To the unknown food expert. As I said previous, I live in Armagh North-East Ireland and I can tell you that Corn Beef and Cabbage is not nor has never been the dish of the day. And I have said nothing in deference to this meal, just stating a fact. Thanks Neil for the nice sentiments, just finishing my Nettle Champ. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: Airto
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 08:58 AM

Our family in Dublin ate corned beef, as described by GUEST, roughly once a week when I was growing up. And we also had spiced beef as a cold delicacy on St Stephen's Day.

I think it's true that general consumption of fish and seafood in Ireland is still much lower than in other seaboard parts of continental Europe, where it's hard to find anything else to eat. I've often wondered why, because the local stuff is excellent. About half the Irish people I know would never eat shellfish and aren't much fond of any form of fish except smoked salmon.

It's true that things are changing, and that good restaurants now have plenty of both on offer. Watching tourists lap it up has prompted many locals to lower their resistance.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: MMario
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 08:58 AM

Now guys, you can't have it both ways - first the US gets slammed for associating Corned beef and cabbage with the Irish - then we get slammed for NOT associating it with the Irish.

It does seem that association of a corned beef and cabbage dinner with St. Patrick's day would be an American or Irish/American tradition -seems pretty certain it isn't an Irish one

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 09:24 AM

It seem it's possible to get all aerated about a thing like what kind of meat people eat with their cabbage. (Folkies are a belligerent bunch sometimes - two friends of mine recently got into a fist fight over what was the right key to play some music in, and they aren't on speaking or playing terms now.)

I'm reminded of Jonathan Swift and the trouble they had in Lilliput over which end to start eating their eggs from...

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 09:24 AM

As I've always understood it, the reason why bacon has traditionally been the meat for poor people in Ireland, rather than beef, was that it was a lot easier for a poor family to fatten up a pig than to keep a cow, and cheaper than buying beef. I'd imagine that might have changed in America, what with all those cattle ranches and meat factories. (Though keeping pigs in the city was common enough in living memory, and not just in Ireland - especially in England during the war.)

These days it's different, and beef is plentiful enough. But for tradition people tend go back to the food from poor times, but perhaps elevated to a more luxurious level.

(And the poached fish was poached in the legal sense. It might have been poached in the culinary one too, but I'm not too knowledgeable about cooking fish. Delicious anyway.)

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 09:31 AM

I'll say it again MMario and McGrath--where is your proof that this is an American dish solely to be associated with what you perceive as the loathsome Oirish Americans?

Offer some proof that this is a dish invented by stage Irish paddys in the Bowery, please.

Seems what we are really seeing in this thread are your true colors. You obviously hold certain negative prejudices about Irish Americans. You've not contributed anything relevatory to the discussion, so why not butt out, and let those of us with a sincere and genuine interest in Irish food traditions have a reasonable conversation about it without you making your rude remarks about Irish Americans?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: MMario
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 09:36 AM

Any rude remark about Irish Americans made by me has been solely in your imagination.

Secondly - How do you determine I have no interest in Irish food traditions? Or that that interest isn't genuine?

I asked for a clarification - within this thread it is being claimed both that corned beef and cabbage IS a traditional Irish food and also that it is only PERCIEVED (and the insinuation is by ignorant Americans) as an Irish traditional food.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 09:36 AM

You know McGrath, if you believe that about the "poor people of Ireland" as you say it, you are again demonstrating your ignorance. The pre-Norman Irish economy was based upon cattle, not pigs. And poor people in Ireland in the post-Norman conquest era, particularly in Penal times, couldn't afford any sort of meat.

Like I said, all you seem to want to do is stir up trouble here, rather than contribute or, god forbid, enlighten your bigoted, ignorant mind. Why not shove off, and leave the conversation to people who find this an interesting subject, rather than another good opportunity to bash Irish Americans in the St Paddy's season?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: MMario
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 09:41 AM

And Guest - I did not claim Corned beef and Cabbage to be an American dish - I said (and this entire thread appears to back me up ) that the association of Corned beef and cabbage with St. Patrick's Day appears to be American or Irish-American.