BS: Dog owners guilty in mauling death

Subject: RE: BS: Dog owners guilty in mauling death
From: SharonA
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 03:02 PM

Richard Bridge says, "There is a funny song about a psychotic chihuahua [yes, that is hard to spell] which copulates itself to death."

Is this a cautionary tale, warning folks to neuter their pets? *G*

Subject: RE: BS: Dog owners guilty in mauling death
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 02:59 PM

My best guess about the 2 counts is that there were 2 dogs.

Subject: RE: BS: Dog owners guilty in mauling death
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 02:46 PM

I'm not sure about dogs being kept to farms where they would have lots of room to run. Around here dogs that run tend to run horses, sheep, and cattle through fences and cause a lot of damage. I've had the misfortune to kill several of these dogs. Animals are the responsibility of their owners. It's why I killed our last dog - he got too territorial and became excessively aggressive.

Why is this in a Mudcat thread? Because it can be.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Dog owners guilty in mauling death
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 02:43 PM

"What has this thread got to do with Mudcat, music or lyrics."

Well, there are lots of songs about murder, and lots of songs about dogs. Maybe there'll be a few about this, bringing the two themes together.

Subject: RE: BS: Dog owners guilty in mauling death
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 02:37 PM

There is a funny song about a psychotic chihuahua (that is very hard to spell) which copulates itself to death.

Dogs take time and patience. We have a rescue great dane (I call her runty the small dane because she's only about 95 pounds)and a rescue border collie/lab cross and both can be absolute pains in the proverbial. But we take care not to let them be dangerous.

Subject: RE: BS: Dog owners guilty in mauling death
From: SeanM
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 02:35 PM

Something I am confused about in this case...

The female primary defendant was found guilty of both 2nd degree murder AND involuntary manslaughter. I am moderately familiar with the definitions, and it would seem these would be rather mutually exclusive. Plus there's the entire issue that she's been convicted on two counts of THE SAME ACT.

I fully believe she is guilty of the 2nd degree count - from trial comments and from her own confesses actions, she showed both horrible negligence and extremely suspect motives for keeping the dogs in the first place, the standard of 'wanton and callous disregard for human life' in my opinion were definitely met with such comments as "she should have just gone back in her apartment", and the fact that the dogs had full run of the victim for TEN minutes.

I just can't get my head around the simultaneous counts for the same act.

M

Subject: RE: BS: Dog owners guilty in mauling death
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 02:34 PM

I agree whith the verdict but like McGrath, do question the authorities. Surely with the 30 plus other incidents or warnings, action should have been taken before anyone was killed.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Dog owners guilty in mauling death
From: Kim C
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 02:22 PM

I forgot to mention, Baxter Black once said that Border Collies are so smart, people should have to pass an IQ test before they're allowed to own one. :-) They're not for everybody.

Subject: RE: BS: Dog owners guilty in mauling death
From: Kim C
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 02:19 PM

According to one site I visited, Presas were not originally bred to fight, and this is not a desirable characteristic in the breed. I don't doubt that's true - but unfortunately what happens with nearly every large, powerful dog, is that a few unscrupulous people get hold of them and breed them for the wrong reasons. Rottweilers are a good example of this; before that, it was Dobermans.

My landlady's daughter had a Doberman, Alex, who just recently went to doggie heaven at the age of 15. We babysat him once. He would come sit in front of you and put his head in your lap. A sweet, friendly dog. However ----- Laura is a professional dog trainer, and Alex was protection trained. If you tried to hurt Laura, you'd be up shit creek. Under normal, everyday circumstances, though, Alex was a great family pet and got along with Laura's other dogs & cats, & other people as well.

I have two mid-sized dogs who have access to a splendid large, fenced back yard. Do they want to go there? Nope. They would rather stay in the house with Mom & Pop & lay around. We have to MAKE them go out. 'Course, they are older now (7 & 12) and not as energetic as they once were. Go figure.

Each one has been a joy and a trial. But we knew that when we brought them home. :-)

Didn't James Taylor do a song about a dog?

Subject: RE: BS: Dog owners guilty in mauling death
From: lamarca
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 02:19 PM

NPR had a good story about the large dog breeds and the people who breed them and buy them when this story first broke last year. It basically showed that with dog breeders, as with every other profession, there will always be a minority of people who are quite willing to sell a product that is dangerous to an individual who doesn't care or actually revels in the danger of the product. The story is here - you can click and then select "listen to segment" to hear a RealAudio clip:

Big Dogs
Demand has soared for the type of dog that fatally attacked a California woman. Vincent Duffy of member station WKSU reports that breeders are resisting this new clientele who seek big, vicious dogs. (4:30)

Subject: RE: BS: Dog owners guilty in mauling death
From: SharonA
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 01:51 PM

Kevin and kat: Oops, you're right; I shouldn't have copied-and-pasted that trolling comment. Sorry.

Raggytash: You're right, we need some music and lyrics here about responsible pet ownership. I'm performing next Saturday (a week from tomorrow) at a charity event to benefit an organization whose mission is to rescue and find permanent homes for unwanted animals in the "Four Corners" region of New Mexico, and to educate the public about the importance of proper pet care. I'd love to have some songs to sing about the subject. Has anyone got any song suggestions? Does someone here have a song about this case in particular?

Subject: RE: BS: Dog owners guilty in mauling death
From: GUEST,Just Amy
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 01:26 PM

KimC - exactly!

Subject: RE: BS: Dog owners guilty in mauling death
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 01:21 PM

What has this thread got to do with Mudcat, music or lyrics.

Subject: RE: BS: Dog owners guilty in mauling death
From: Jimmy C
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 01:19 PM

Dogs should be kept on a farm with lots of space, especially large dogs. Certain breeds like the Canario and Pit-Bulls etc are prone to attack. It's not their fault, that is how they are, they should only be owned by professional dog people who know how to train and handle them. If I were kept in an apartment for hours at a time day in and day out I would be ready to go ape as well. People have to be checked out when they attempt ot buy certain breeds of dogs, just as if they were buying a rifle. These poor animals were not suitable for apartments or city dwellings and only acted according to their upbringing. The owners did not help their case with their casual don't give a damn about the victim attitude.

Subject: RE: BS: Dog owners guilty in mauling death
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 01:13 PM

Copied from a breed L-list I am on. Names removed:

What made caveman ever think he could bring the ancient wolves into his cave as a companion and make them safe not to kill he or his family?
Were ancient wolves any less violent by nature than the Canary Island Dogs? (a breed bred for it's musculature & high pain threshold (I suspect) and then *trained* to fight from early puppyhood).

I agree with everyone that it was a good jury decision and that the *emphasis* has to be put on personal responsibility...not just in dogs but in all aspects of life. Deciding to buy a cup of hot coffee at McDonald's carries with it the obvious that if you spill it on yourself it will burn you. (DUH) so it is your responsibility not to tip hot coffee on yourself or others...not McDonald's for selling hot food.

I have met a lot of re-educated pit bulls in my area that have been re-trained and obedience trained to the highest level so that the dogs are very responsive on command. they have been brought into group obed.classes (including where I train our dogs) and I've never seen a problem arise with any of them. They have been rehabilitated from the "kill any dog" mentality to being socially acceptable dogs. The group who does this is low key but very adept at working with these seized dogs.

I don't believe that every dog, whether in the pit or at large, is able to be re-habilitated anymore than I believe every person convicted of 1st degree homicide is rehabilitatable. But I definitely do not believe that any breed bred for fighting needs to be banned based on breed propensity or history alone. As a breeder I know what a difference early rearing & socialization makes in a puppy of any breed. The operative word is *responsible*. For too long society has down played that word, to the point it has almost been removed from our vocabulary. Hopefully, this century will bring it back to the importance it deserves."

Italics mine. I did not, of course, know these dogs, but IMO, I doubt they could have been rehabilitated.

Subject: RE: BS: Dog owners guilty in mauling death
From: Grab
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 01:06 PM

Ain't that the way, Amergin? But ppl will insist on owning pets which are unsuitable either for their home or for the area. Common examples: keeping large pets in small houses, owning cats in urban areas, or letting pet rabbits dig their way out into other gardens. And then there's the next step up of ppl who keep dangerous pets like snakes and stuff, or who buy endangered species on the black market and help keep that trade going.

Damn little you can do about it unfortunately, it's just down the ppl not giving a damn about their neighbours and thinking about the implications of having that pet. And you can't have a checkbox saying "Are you or have you ever been an unpleasant bastard who doesn't give a shit about other people?"

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Dog owners guilty in mauling death
From: Kim C
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 01:06 PM

The problem is that too many people don't educate themselves before taking on the responsibility of a pet. A pet is not a plaything. It's a living creature, and when you bring it into your home, You Are Responsible For It. You commit to feeding it, caring for it, and keeping it out of danger.

I repeat - having a pet in your home is a Commitment for the lifetime of that animal. If you're not willing to commit, don't get a pet.

Now. First of all, these people had no business keeping an animal of that type in the environment where they lived. Some large breeds are perfectly adaptable to small spaces - Presas are not. From what I understand these are dogs bred to live with cattle, etc., in large open spaces.

Second, not all dog breeds are suitable to all people. Not everyone can own a powerful, energetic dog of any size and keep it out of trouble. These people were foolish to think they could handle 200+ pounds of dog.

Their ignorance and negligence led directly to Sharon Whipple's death and they should be held accountable. Likewise the person(s) who agreed to let them keep said dogs in a city apartment building - the breeder and the building manager - must also be held accountable. The dogs should never have been allowed to go with Noel & Knoller in the first place.

I think a life sentence would be too harsh, considering this was apparently not a premeditated act. However I do wholeheartedly agree with the verdict.

Subject: RE: BS: Dog owners guilty in mauling death
From: Amergin
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 12:51 PM

personally...they should have destroyed the owners....not the dogs....apartment buildings are no place for such big dogs....

Subject: RE: BS: Dog owners guilty in mauling death
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 12:22 PM

The dogs were Presa (or Dogo)Canario--info here. Bred primarily for gaurding/attacking. Most dogs, esp. the herding/working groups were bred to Do Things, but most of them have been bred out far from their roots. There are some exceptions to this of course, but even the Rotts and Staffordshires are a long ways now from fighting and bull baiting.

The Canario is NOT! I am not saying the dogs should be banned, but seriously controlled breeding and seriously screened owners are an absolute MUST with this dog.

Subject: RE: BS: Dog owners guilty in mauling death
From: InOBU
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 12:12 PM

OH! I think you may be right about the comment. Stupid comment if that is what it is about. Genie, (me wife) and I were talking about the verdict this morning, and that we can see the lack of care possibly rising to what is refered to as a depraved heart killing, but on the other hand, the defendants where so unlovable, I hope that they were not convicted for being unsimpathetic defendants. That is the kind of shade of grey one has to really be in the court room, if not the jury room to tell.
Cheers, Larry (PS Kat... check out the new song about Genie, on the & another wee song from InOBU post... not a lot of hits, I guess folks aren't big on my songs these days... cheers again, Larry)

Subject: RE: BS: Dog owners guilty in mauling death
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 12:11 PM

Anyone posting as a GUEST (nameless variety) and saying something like that is clearly trolling, and should be ignored. (Whatever happened to Max's warning that he was clamping down on that stuff?)

From what I've read, it sounds a fair enough verdict. A terrible thing to happen to the poor woman who was killed. A sad thing for the dogs, for that matter.

But with that record, why the hell hadn't the police moved in earlier, and saved all three lives? It doesn't sound as if the rightly guilty owners are the only people who should carry some blame for this.

Subject: RE: BS: Dog owners guilty in mauling death
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 12:08 PM

Why even give a guest who makes those kinds of comments the time of day? Stirring the pot? Not worth it.

Subject: RE: BS: Dog owners guilty in mauling death
From: SharonA
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 12:04 PM

Sorcha: What's the full name of the breed that these dogs were? Do you have any information about them, or can you link us to some?

Subject: RE: BS: Dog owners guilty in mauling death
From: SharonA
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 12:00 PM

Larry: I think (and this is just my own interpretation of the comment) that, because Whipple was lesbian, GUEST was taking a homophobic swipe at her, and was characterizing all sports coaches as homosexuals.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, GUEST!

Subject: RE: BS: Dog owners guilty in mauling death
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 11:59 AM

I don't get the comment, either, but am glad of the verdict. I love dogs--like all dogs better than most people--but Presa's are nothing to fool around with. The sheer crassness of the owners really did me in.

Subject: RE: BS: Dog owners guilty in mauling death
From: InOBU
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 11:50 AM

I still don't get the comment... am I thick (more than just the usual, ah that Larry is just thick...) thick in this instance???? Larry

Subject: Dog owners guilty in mauling death
From: SharonA
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 11:39 AM

Excerpts from story on cnn.com

California Couple Guilty in Dog Mauling Case

LOS ANGELES, CA – The owners of two dogs that attacked and killed a neighbor in their San Francisco apartment building were found guilty Thursday of all charges against them, including involuntary manslaughter and having a mischievous animal that kills.

One of the owners, Marjorie Knoller -- who was present during the January 2001 mauling -- was also found guilty of second-degree murder. Her husband, Robert Noel, 60, ...was not at home at the time of the attacks, but jurors apparently agreed with the prosecution's argument that he and his wife had ignored repeated warnings about their two large Presa Canarios -- Bane and Hera -- and knew they were a danger.

The couple was charged in the January 26, 2001, mauling death of Diane Whipple, a 33-year-old San Francisco lacrosse coach. Whipple was killed in the hallway of the apartment building she shared with Knoller and Noel as she returned home from a trip to the grocery store.

The prosecution laid out more than 30 incidents or warnings involving the 100-plus-pound dogs, which since have been destroyed.

Knoller faces a sentence of 15 years to life in prison for second-degree murder. Noel and Knoller both face sentences of two to four years in prison on the involuntary manslaughter charges, while owning a mischievous animal that kills carries a sentence of 16 months to three years.

Prosecutor Jim Hammer said the verdict should send a message to pet owners that they must be responsible. "For a muzzle, Diane Whipple would be alive, and they choose not to do it," he said.

FULL STORY: http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/03/ 21/dog.mauling.trial/index.html

This verdict didn't surprise or bother me in the least, but on the Andrea Yates thread someone made a comment about this case, which I reprint below:

----------------------------------------------------------------
From: GUEST Date: 21-Mar-02 - 11:15 PM

Sad, SAD...neither she, her husband, nor the animals should be guilty.....a coach is less than a lawyer and therefore less than a normal procreator in the society at large.
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While I certainly disagree with the comment (especially the characterization of the victim and of coaches in general), I thought I'd ask what other people think about this verdict.