Subject: Irish Dancing From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy Date: 22 Mar 02 - 04:31 PM The fallout from OBWAT is supposed to be positive, maybe more people will be exposed to FOlk musis, etc. blah blah blah, BUT look at the fallout from Riverdance! This curly haired wig headband thing is out of control! It's child abuse! It's false Irish stereotyping! not even REAL Irish stereotyping! Look at the photos in the Irish Dance section of February's Irish Music and GET ANGRY! Mothers, tell the dance schools and the costume suppliers peddling this crap that, 'NO, my daughter is NOT going to wear this silly wig thing, thank you very much!' Fathers, put your foot (feet) down! Girls, stand up for yourselves, you know how hideous that looks, don't you? And you know it's the dancing, not some idiots idea of beauty, don't you? A Riverdance company in every city with population over 1000, we need a lot of curly headed Irish Stepford dancing girls? Or are they to be Stepdance wives? I love to see the dancing, and the enthusiasm of children, but the boys aren't having to appear in contests shirtless are they? Or balancing ridiculous Zorro hats while they leap about, are they? Well, young women of the world, why not just say NO to these stupid wigs? Be yourselves and dance your socks off! |
Subject: RE: BS: Irish Dancing From: GUEST,maryrrf Date: 22 Mar 02 - 04:44 PM I wondered whether those wigs were always a part of the female Irish dance costume, or was it due to Riverdance? |
Subject: RE: BS: Irish Dancing From: Manitas_at_home Date: 22 Mar 02 - 04:51 PM I thought that Riverdance was supposed to break with that stereotype. Certainly the dance groups I seen recently have been dressing more like Jean Butler than Shirley Temple. |
Subject: RE: BS: Irish Dancing From: Jenny the T Date: 22 Mar 02 - 04:55 PM Well, I agree about the stupid curly-haired wig things, and I'm no fan of the gawd-awful so-called "traditional" dance dresses, either. ('Traditional,' hell--you never saw one of 'em before the twenties, and they just seem to get gaudier and more awful [and more expensive] every year.) But Riverdance didn't have anything to do with wigs nor gaudy dresses--the competitive Irish dance world has been that way for years, if not generations. If Riverdance has done anything, it's brought on a generation of little dancers that don't seem to be able to move their feet to anything but recorded, over-produced, nearly-symphonic, pseudo-"traditional" music. It's also brought us a horde of adult beginners in tiny short Jean Butler dresses. That's not nearly as bad as what the competition and the accompanying medal frenzy does to the art form itself--it's a pity how so many of the kids seem to be in it only for the medals. And it's a judged 'sport,' like figure-skating, and ... well, I've seen kids do steps that should fill them with the joy of it, but they're marked down for who-knows-what mysterious reason, and they leave sobbing. The curly wigs and such are the result of that atmosphere--as soon as the kids/parents get the idea that scores will suffer without the curls, then no effort will be spared to have the curls. 'Cause if you don't get the medals, why on earth would you ever dance? Bah. JtT
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Dancing From: Big Mick Date: 22 Mar 02 - 06:29 PM My wee trad dancer (Ciara is 10, so I guess she isn't so small anymore) dances to the recorded stuff, live stuff, anything that fits the steps. She conned her mother into the wig, wore it once, and pronounced it silly and hasn't worn it since. The "Open" dresses are another matter. I don't care for them, but then again, I don't care for some football uniforms. The kids love 'em, they are like a badge of accomplishment. And they are far from a new thing, although they have gotten louder recently as people try to come up with something different. I am no fan of Flatley, but the lad can dance. We used to see him dance in the Feis' around the Midwest. You knew then the talent the young fella had. But in his productions, it seems to me that he forgets that it isn't about him, it's about the dance and the music. Having said that, we can thank him, as well as the producers of this show for a lot of interest in the music and the dance. The people that carp about some of the less than trad aspects are full of hot air, IMHO. My own tastes run more to trad, but another whole generation of dancers exists because of this stuff. Mick |
Subject: RE: BS: Irish Dancing From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 22 Mar 02 - 08:37 PM Nope, I don't think we can blame this trend on Flatley and Riverdance, just disgusting self-indulgent materialism, largely USA-inspired. The kind of schmuck that made St Patrick's Day in Dublin such a nauseating spectacle this year, and a paradise for cheerleaders. My daughter too, Big Mick, was into Irish dancing. In sheer ignorance I took her to the world championships last year, which happened to be in Belfast. We were thoroughly sickened by the whole hot-house spectacle - parents sparing no expense in trying to buy victory for their kids, and the kids terrified lest they failed and all the investment was down the drain. What I can't fathom is why does the US have to destroy other cultures instead of just doing its own thing? Why not simply create new stories rather than corrupt and destroy the Hercules myth, or Winnie-the-Pooh as A A Milne and E H Shepherd wondrously conceived it? The cheerleader thing is fine too, if that's what you like. But why impose that on Irish dancing for Chrissake? |
Subject: RE: BS: Irish Dancing From: MMario Date: 22 Mar 02 - 08:48 PM There are a great many people in the US that dislike what the mouse-culture has done to great stories. |
Subject: RE: BS: Irish Dancing From: Fiolar Date: 23 Mar 02 - 05:16 AM Anyone interested in Irish dancing should read the book "The Story of Irish Dance" by Helen Brennan - ISBN 0 86322 244 7. It traces the history from the earliest known sources and is full of interesting facts. How many people know that under the Public Dance Hall Act 0f 1935, the Irish police regularly raided private houses that were holding dances and beat up the participants as the dancers were ejected from the premises. Another fact which I was unaware of is the fact that "Sean Nos" was not broadcast on Irish radio to any significant degree until the 1960s. The book will open many folks eyes regarding the true story of dancing. |
Subject: RE: BS: Irish Dancing From: Brakn Date: 23 Mar 02 - 06:16 AM Thread creep. Last year I was looking through some early 1930's local Dundalk newspapers. I looking to find a report on my mother's first appearance on stage at 3 years old. One thing I noticed was that when the authorities were granting a dance license they insisted that the organisers must ensure that the majority of the time was given to Irish dancing and that "English dances" were to be of a minimum. "English dances" were old time waltzes. How things have changed. |
Subject: RE: BS: Irish Dancing From: Fibula Mattock Date: 23 Mar 02 - 08:14 AM I used to go to Irish dancing when I was wee - early/mid 1980s (I'm a wee pup yet) - and they had the ringlet thing and sequin shite going on then too. I hated going to a feis and seeing mothers putting make-up on seven-year-olds, seeing all the flash costumes, watching kids with rollers in their hair crying with nerves and then crying with disappointment. (I won feck all, but knew there was no point worrying about it - I enjoyed myself anyway when I just danced for fun, but our teacher insisted on us entering competitions.) I've even seen mothers argue with the adjudicators. Mind you, I've seen some very dodgy luminous, really luminous, satin costumes recently - they look too heavy for the skirt to lift at all cos there's that much sparkly embroidery on them. And I do believe Ella or one of her mates mentioned seeing one of the dancers with matching sparkly knickers. And as for "Be yourself and dance your socks off" Bill Kennedy - well, there'll be all manner of ructions if you don't have those bobble-y socks, extra white and carefully ruched around the ankle (worn, naturally, with a pair of those over-elaborate, big-buckled, shiny hard shoes)! |
Subject: RE: BS: Irish Dancing From: DMcG Date: 23 Mar 02 - 08:59 AM When my daughter was into Irish dancing (she's a polyfoot - ballet, modern, tap, flamenco, and more), she entered quite a few of these competitions. While I found the beauty contest aspect of it all depressing, what was worse was that the judges sometimes assessed a hundred-plus girls three at a time and each group rarely had more than 10 seconds to dance. That is not my idea of either dance, or of a sensible competion. |
Subject: RE: BS: Irish Dancing From: Fibula Mattock Date: 23 Mar 02 - 09:52 AM DMcG - you're right in that - shepherd the girls (and occasional boy) on, play 16 bars of music, ring the bell and *ping!* they're back off the stage again. Mmario - check this out! |
Subject: RE: BS: Irish Dancing From: Desert Dancer Date: 23 Mar 02 - 03:05 PM Oh, Fibula, the Disney classics is classic!! Thanks for the link! ~ Becky in Tucson |
Subject: RE: BS: Irish Dancing From: GUEST,sharong Date: 24 Mar 02 - 10:37 AM Hi there I was just alerted to this discussion..... I am a dancer's mom and do a lot of performing with step dancers, so I have opinions on the topic. (So this is a bit long!) My son is a dancer, which makes it fairly easy to avoid the hair & dress issues. He also does not compete at an advanced level and we don't see some of the extremes associated with the championships that were mentioned above (as at the World Championships). Hair: My understanding is that ringlets were associated popular at the time that step dancing got more organized/structured the way it is. I once asked the dance teacher here if he thought that ringlets would be eliminated and he said, quite unequivocally, "never". In the 4 or 5 years since we had the discussion, I have seen a trend among older dancers toward buns with a little bit of curls. Overall, it's a shame, as hair has nothing to do with dancing ability. But given that inflexibility, the wigs take a huge amount of pressure off of moms who have to spend as much as 2 hours to curl the hair and remove the curlers. I think one has take Irish step dancing as something on its own- it really is a modern competitive sport, like gymnastics, that is done to Irish dance tunes. It isn't really traditional any more but especially in the U.S. it helps kids of Irish descent feel connected to their roots. Taken on it's own terms, it can be beautiful and impressive to watch- and demanding but rewarding to master. Most of the kids I've met who are involved in Irish step dance really enjoy learning steps, performing and going to a feis. I have observed that on the whole, they are polite and well-behaved, and develop a great sense of confidence about peforming in public. And if they're practicing dance, they're not getting into trouble after school because they're bored and unsupervised. I don't like the competitive aspects of step dancing. What I have seen of the commission and it's regulations, some of the behind the scenes politics, has quite turned me off. Unlike Suzuki music programs, for example, it sets up win-lose situations, and discourages those who enjoy dancing & learning but don't master the stylistic requirements to advance to higher levels. I'm sure some kids drop out when they figure that out. I'm happy my son didn't- he contintues to get enjoyment from participating in shows and associating with friends at the dance school. As a musician- I dislike the reliance on recordings and the strict metronomic tempos. However, there is something very joyful about playing at a party and being bombarded by children begging me to play a "light jig", a "slip jig" or "another reel". Having worked closely with our local dance school for several years, my band has found that the kids like dancing to live music- but that we have to work extra-hard to pay attention to tempos and their choreography. But I would never want to be hired as a feis musician- I've sat in with them and it is exhausting and demanding. ...that's a little more than 2 cents worth ...for what it's worth Sharon |
Subject: RE: BS: Irish Dancing From: Maryrrf Date: 24 Mar 02 - 11:16 AM This is a bit of thread creep, but I agree with Mmario that a lot of us in the US don't like the way our country "Disnyfies" everything. I wish other cultures wouldn't be so quick to jump on our bandwagon and snap this stuff up - but I guess that's the power of marketing. The Disney versions of fairytales end up having very little to do with the originals, and stories like "Pocahontas" - well folks Pocahontas was a little girl when she rescued Captain John Smith, not a buxom young woman in a tight dress! By the way, Fibula, I too chuckled at that Disney link! |
Subject: RE: BS: Irish Dancing From: Clinton Hammond Date: 24 Mar 02 - 12:17 PM Why oh why are those poor kids not allowed to SMILE when they dance?!?!?! As I said in the "How goes Yer St Pats Marathon" thread, it really has to be the single most boring of any cultural dance that's been formulated and standardised I've ever seen... "No kid of mine will ever... blah blah blah..." LOL!!!!! |
Subject: RE: BS: Irish Dancing From: sledge Date: 25 Mar 02 - 07:39 AM There was a cartoon doing the rounds last year that showed a cleaner in the bowels of some Dublin dance school going through a pile of junk with the title of somelike Mrs O'Grady's shocking discovery, for in her arms is a old book titled Ye olde book of Irish dance Vol 2, the use of the arms :) |
Subject: RE: BS: Irish Dancing From: Fibula Mattock Date: 25 Mar 02 - 08:26 AM I loved the Private Eye cartoon with the teacher shouting at the Irish dancing class "Decomission the arms, Siobhan!". |
Subject: RE: BS: Irish Dancing From: JulieF Date: 25 Mar 02 - 11:14 AM Ah - a subject I know well and having a retired dancer myself can step back from it. Even in the relatively short time we were involved - about ten years competitive dancing things became more accelorated, dress and hairwise. What I would say is that it is no more competitive than many other forms of dancing. Any where there are competitve parents you will get these situtations. The only way any change is made is if things are banned from the top. I have seen kids on their knees in the toilets praying with their mothers as well as parents flouncing out because their little darling is not doing well. As for the wigs. They started appearing a few years ago - some wonderful occasions when they fall off (the skill is to keep dancing regardless). I did the curlers bit, usually very badly for years. My understanding was that the reason it started was to emphasis the bounce when kids danced. It was always better when you could get live musicians as some of the kids became more interested in the musicians and started picking the music up and some of the musicians have made a very, very good living from it. However, it is expensive for a small feis and hard work for the musicians. Ironically, it is the worst dancers who need the better musicians as they can't adapt to the change of tempos. I was glad that we were never really involved at the top level. (Cat was 20th in the North West once in her age group in a year when most of the British Champions were in the North West.) There is no doubt that she would not have danced as well without competition dancing and she got to go to interesting places and meet interesting people. I am sure that its one of the reasons that she still plays traditional music. Basically, we got a lot out of it but you had to take it with a pinch of salt and there might have been more pressure if we had had a potential world champion. I always thought when you put a kid in any dancing dress ,even there very high level competition dresses, you either had a Princess or an urchin. I am happy to say I always had an urchin. All the best Julie |
Subject: RE: BS: Irish Dancing From: GUEST,Claire Date: 25 Mar 02 - 12:50 PM Katherine is 8 years old and has been dancing for 2 years. Katherine likes the curls, but adores our shared activity of getting them lovingly put in and then flouncing around in her symbol of maternal attention. Katherine earned $100 toward her costume, which she slides into and proudly dances steps that she spent months perfecting. Steps that she works on with her friends that she met through dancing. Imitating the steps of those older dancers that always ask her how she did at each feis and are so genuinely sweet to her. Katherine is scared before a feis, but sometimes dances like a princess in front of that suited judge sitting alone at the table. When she is done, she's really accomplished something - on her own. She glows just like those 500 other curly headed girls glow. With an inner knowledge that they have acheived. Their parents glow because they love their child and their child is glowing. Katherine stares admiringly at the chubby girl that just won a firstplace trophy or the tall gangly thing that just finished her difficult hornpipe. Katherine sees no weight problem and no long skinny legs. Katherine sees girls that are trying and trying again to dance. Katherine says... no mom that's a reel, when she wants to dance to a jig. Katherine has preferences about the music, she knows the difference and recognizes lift in the tune. Katherine knows all sorts of things about Ireland and wants to learn many more things. People say she looks Irish, which makes her smile broadly and put on an Irish accent for the nice lady. Danielle is 5 and she just started dancing. She glows when the music comes on and runs out to the middle of the room. She is as thrilled to dance her own steps as she is to be learning the real "reel". She likes to dance like the big boys with hops and leaps and stomps. She already knows how the music is phrased. Katherine is learning to accept her sisters entre into the dance world. They will learn to cheer for each other and they will learn not to begrudge each others successes too much. They will be dancers and they will dance to jigs and reels and hornpipes. When they are 50 they will still be able to do this and they will be able to do this together. I ask you.... what is tradition???
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Dancing From: MMario Date: 25 Mar 02 - 12:55 PM Caire - those are the positive aspects - and what the dance should be about. As with sports, sometimes the positive gets lost in the drive to "win" - but the real winners are the ones who do it for the love of the activity. |
Subject: RE: BS: Irish Dancing From: Sonnet Date: 25 Mar 02 - 06:38 PM Julie F, I met some absolute nightmares of children and domineering parents, as you know. What Rachael and I take away with us is the fun we had with Betty and Bernie, the Farrels, Margaret, Ken and family and you, Tim and Catriona. Then, those early morning set-offs to various feises, where we might have been on the road for an hour before a word other than a growl was heard in your car - glad you weren't morning people! Ask Tim if he remembers learning the hop jig at Mrs Maw's when Rachael and Catriona were small. And remember Betty's instructions -CLEAN, DRY HAIR. LOVE Janet |
Subject: RE: BS: Irish Dancing From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 25 Mar 02 - 08:16 PM Why shouldn't Katherine notice weight problems Claire (just like you do yourself)? I've always taken it that a weight problem is a matter of choice, not a disability. |
Subject: RE: BS: Irish Dancing From: GUEST,Claire Date: 26 Mar 02 - 10:32 AM I hope I didn't offend you Fionne. The purpose of my post was to talk about some of the positive aspects that I felt were being overlooked in the thread as a whole. I wrote it in the way that I did to point out that it is child's perspective and growth that this is all about. One of the things I love about Irish dancing is that all types of children, which come in many different shapes and sizes, can enjoy dancing. That is a feature that is not true for some other dance styles, such as ballet. Because I have little girls in this overly body concious world, this is important to me. Claire |
Subject: RE: BS: Irish Dancing From: Sonnet Date: 26 Mar 02 - 05:05 PM My daughter was bullied at one particular Irish dancing school in South Yorkshire because she had 'big feet' according to one of the display team members. She was never allowed to reach her potential there. Fortunately we had a lot of support from Sheffield parents and their offspring, so eventually we changed class. The teacher was in many respects the puppet of the parents at the class I don't feel able to name, but after we changed class she got a lot fairer tuition from the teacher, and a hell of a lot of help from one older girl, Bernadette Tynan, to whom we owe so much. JmcS |
Subject: RE: BS: Irish Dancing From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 26 Mar 02 - 07:52 PM Claire, there is a lovely photo in the current issue of the CCE magazine, Treoir, of a girl dancing on an Irish pavement. She is wearing a lovely, but simple, black dress, and has long straight hair, all her own. Plain and simple. And if she entered a competition, is it too much to hope that she would be judged on her danceing, rather than her ringlets or lack of them? Well obviously it is. As far as I know, America gave us cheerleaders. Isn't that enough to inflict on the world without destroying other traditions, however wonderful they might have been? Why is it important to you that Katherine should "look Irish" in a way that no-one who is Irish ever did? |