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Recording other peoples songs for demos?

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Clinton Hammond 25 Mar 02 - 02:10 PM
MMario 25 Mar 02 - 02:11 PM
Clinton Hammond 25 Mar 02 - 02:15 PM
GUEST,maryrrf 25 Mar 02 - 02:21 PM
MMario 25 Mar 02 - 02:23 PM
Clinton Hammond 25 Mar 02 - 02:24 PM
Clinton Hammond 25 Mar 02 - 02:27 PM
MMario 25 Mar 02 - 02:31 PM
Clinton Hammond 25 Mar 02 - 02:33 PM
GUEST,maryrrf 25 Mar 02 - 02:35 PM
MMario 25 Mar 02 - 02:38 PM
MMario 25 Mar 02 - 02:40 PM
GUEST,maryrrf 25 Mar 02 - 02:55 PM
MMario 25 Mar 02 - 03:00 PM
GUEST,maryrrf 25 Mar 02 - 03:10 PM
MMario 25 Mar 02 - 03:25 PM
Maryrrf 25 Mar 02 - 08:04 PM
Clinton Hammond 25 Mar 02 - 09:23 PM
poor lonesome boy 26 Mar 02 - 12:32 AM
Clinton Hammond 26 Mar 02 - 03:42 AM
JedMarum 26 Mar 02 - 08:39 AM
JedMarum 26 Mar 02 - 08:42 AM
JedMarum 26 Mar 02 - 08:47 AM
MMario 26 Mar 02 - 09:04 AM
MMario 26 Mar 02 - 09:41 AM
GUEST,Declan 26 Mar 02 - 11:17 AM
Midchuck 26 Mar 02 - 11:46 AM
MMario 26 Mar 02 - 12:50 PM
Fortunato 26 Mar 02 - 12:55 PM
GUEST,Arjay 26 Mar 02 - 10:02 PM
MMario 26 Mar 02 - 10:11 PM
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Subject: Recording other peoples songs for demos?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 02:10 PM

What's the scoop on that, especially in Canada?

Especially if it's just a small pressing that's only gonna be given away and not sold? Do you scoot and hope to stay under radar?

Are you better off going above board in the first place?

What say youse??

:-)


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Subject: RE: Help: Recording other peoples songs for demos?
From: MMario
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 02:11 PM

clinton - I know that legally you are suppossed to pay mechanical copyright.


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Subject: RE: Help: Recording other peoples songs for demos?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 02:15 PM

Any other details there MMario? Or a place to look for 'em??

;-)


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Subject: RE: Help: Recording other peoples songs for demos?
From: GUEST,maryrrf
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 02:21 PM

I've wondered about this myself. Anybody know what the scoop is in the US on this subject? So far I've only recorded traditional songs and one by somebody who gave me his permission.


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Subject: RE: Help: Recording other peoples songs for demos?
From: MMario
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 02:23 PM

Not sure where to look for Canada; (and I suspect you are right - you could probably scoot under the radar - BUT....)

I would try a search on "mechanical copyright" and "Canada" -


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Subject: RE: Help: Recording other peoples songs for demos?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 02:24 PM

My understanding is that verbal permission does not exclude the obligation to pay copyright...

We almost need two threads eh? One fer Yanks, and one for Canucks...

;-)


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Subject: RE: Help: Recording other peoples songs for demos?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 02:27 PM

WOW!! Too... many... hits... MMario! LOL!!!


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Subject: RE: Help: Recording other peoples songs for demos?
From: MMario
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 02:31 PM

clinton - CMRRA

Mary - if it is previously published my understanding is that if you pay the mechanical copyright they cannot prevent you from recording the song.

What Clinton said about permissions is correct to the best of my knowledge. VERBAL permission does not (legally) exclude you from the fee; so you are always best to get WRITTEN permission.


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Subject: RE: Help: Recording other peoples songs for demos?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 02:33 PM

Yes... but even if say, I had written permission from James Keelaghan to use one of his songs on a demo, that stsill wouldn't excuse me from my obligation to mechanical copyright fees right???


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Subject: RE: Help: Recording other peoples songs for demos?
From: GUEST,maryrrf
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 02:35 PM

Well, I should probably clarify that it's a very dear personal friend who knows my CD's don't have a very wide distribution. He has copyrighted the song but hasn't joined anything like ASCAP or Harry Fox (actually he's in the UK so I guess it would have to be the Performing Arts Society or something like that). I give him a portion of what I make on the CD's (which isn't much) so this is just an informal thing we've worked out personally between us.


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Subject: RE: Help: Recording other peoples songs for demos?
From: MMario
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 02:38 PM

If he holds the copyright and grants you permission to use it WITHOUT MECHANICAL COPYRIGHT fee. (permission to record it and permission to record it without fee - two seperate issues; also composer/authors quite frequently do not have rights to their own songs...because they signed them away when THEY recorded them or something similar.


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Subject: RE: Help: Recording other peoples songs for demos?
From: MMario
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 02:40 PM

Mary - sound like you are in the clear... (I wasn't implying anything shady)

current rates - US


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Subject: RE: Help: Recording other peoples songs for demos?
From: GUEST,maryrrf
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 02:55 PM

Mmario don't worry I didn't think you were accusing me of anything! Frankly the whole royalty/songwriting/publishing/ thing is confusing to me. I've always been more interested in singing traditional material than writing but I'd like to learn more about the songwriting (as in legal/business aspects) for my friend, who writes beautiful songs but doesn't have much of an inclination towards business. I don't want to see him ripped off. I was the one who persuaded him to at least copyright his songs.


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Subject: RE: Help: Recording other peoples songs for demos?
From: MMario
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 03:00 PM

found this regarding Canadian rates:

"The current Canadian industry standard rate is 7.4 ¢ per track (up to 5 minutes + 1.48¢ per minute or parital minute over 5 minutes). For example, to calculate a reduced rate for one tune in a 4 minute medley of three tunes (all still in copyright), then 2.466¢ per unit may be an acceptable rate to the publisher (i.e.: $24.66 per thousand) but must be negotiated prior to release. If the request is made after the recordings have been made, a publisher may demand higher rates and may even sue for copyright infringement."


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Subject: RE: Help: Recording other peoples songs for demos?
From: GUEST,maryrrf
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 03:10 PM

But how do they keep track of how many CD's are sold, how much airplay the song gets, etc. especially in the case of people who mostly sell the CD's at their gigs?


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Subject: RE: Help: Recording other peoples songs for demos?
From: MMario
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 03:25 PM

The Artist (is self published) or publisher (if you go through a company) are suppossed to get agreements for the number to be cut PRIOR to recording - or for small amounts as they are produced.

The way the laws read - it doesn't matter if they sell - it is the manufacture that you pay for.

When we recorded a cassette for a fund-raiser - the studio had to fill out a form showing the company that actually made the cassettes from the master that all fees had been paid.

airplay falls under "performance rights" - which is a whole 'nother issue and is a case of sample rates etc. Most small artists see little to nothing based on airplay.


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Subject: RE: Help: Recording other peoples songs for demos?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 08:04 PM

Thanks, Mmario. I've got to start reading up on this.


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Subject: RE: Help: Recording other peoples songs for demos?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 09:23 PM

Ya... ta Mmario!

;-)


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Subject: RE: Help: Recording other peoples songs for demos?
From: poor lonesome boy
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 12:32 AM

i take it all rules are off if these are giveaway demos? or am i just looking for loopholes?


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Subject: RE: Help: Recording other peoples songs for demos?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 03:42 AM

Even if you give 'em away, you still have to pay copyright!


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Subject: RE: Help: Recording other peoples songs for demos?
From: JedMarum
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 08:39 AM

If you are recording another person's copyright protected, previously published song for a demo (not a publication) you are NOT expected to pay a mechanical license fee. You do NOT need permission.

If you are recording another person's copyright protected, previously published song for your own publication (a publically available product, for sale in sufficient quantity to be considered a publication) then you do NOT need permission, but you are expected to pay a mechanical license fee (recently increased to $.08 per copy - or $80 per thousand).

You cannot record another author's UNpublished song without his/her permission, and presumably without paying his fee PLUS mechanical license fee.

What is considered a publication is a bit vague, it seems to me. My reading of the rule says that a run of records made publically available (not just given away or even sold selectively) amounting to more then 2000 coopies - is a publication. But in practice, with all the independent runs of records these days, most artists pay the mechanical license if they produce more them 1000 copies. I am sure this is good practice and doing so will keep you out of trouble.

If you are calling your project a demo, produce numbers of copies in the low hundreds, give away as many as you sell ... I am quite sure you will be correct in paying NO mechanical fees.


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Subject: RE: Help: Recording other peoples songs for demos?
From: JedMarum
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 08:42 AM

OOOPS - sorry big error above! I meant to say:

If you are recording another person's copyright protected, previously published song for a demo (not a publication) you are NOT expected to pay anything MORE then a mechanical license fee (8 cents per copy). You do NOT need permission.


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Subject: RE: Help: Recording other peoples songs for demos?
From: JedMarum
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 08:47 AM

Oh bother I am really screwing this up!!

Let's try again; the difference is; YOU ARE RECORDING A DEMO, not a published product. You are not responsible for payment of mechanical license fees under those circumstances!

A demo may be a bit vague, in its definition ... but if you are producing a small number of records, for your friends, for purposes of demonstrating your musical abilities etc - you are not expected to pay mechanical fees.


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Subject: RE: Help: Recording other peoples songs for demos?
From: MMario
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 09:04 AM

Jed - there are several copyright sites that disagree with you. (Though in practice I understand that essentially this is what happens)


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Subject: RE: Help: Recording other peoples songs for demos?
From: MMario
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 09:41 AM

recently in the USA commercial copyright violation involving more than 10 copies and value over $2500 was made a felony.

How does copyright affect a normal person not professionally involved in music?

The same way as it does the professional -there is no exception (e.g. see your license agreements,that came with your software). If anyone is using music under copyright for any other than strictly personal use - royalties are due !

This includes especially recording in any form, broadcasting, printing, playing /performing to audiences, or including for use with other media. Creating any duplictions or providing for it (copies) constitutes distribution, even when not for profit - as soon as there is more than 1 or 2 copies for personal use (or backup).you are in violation of the copyright.


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Subject: RE: Help: Recording other peoples songs for demos?
From: GUEST,Declan
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 11:17 AM

Seems to me whatever the legal position that it might be a courtesy to try to contact the person who wrote the song/tune,if they are still around, to let them know you plan to record it.

Despite what it says above those who are professionally involved in music are normal people too.


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Subject: RE: Help: Recording other peoples songs for demos?
From: Midchuck
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 11:46 AM

We recorded a song of Utah Phillips' that no one had ever recorded before, not even him - "Paddy Welcome Back." Sandy (bigchuck) had learned it from his little 1972 or '3 songbook and taught it to us.

Since there was no previous recording, we wrote Utah and asked for permission to record it. He graciously granted the same, and waived any royalties, as I understand is his custom. The only problem we had was that he addressed the reply letter to "Upchucks' Revenge." It got to us ok as he had the PO box right, but the Post office folks had a good laugh.

Peter.


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Subject: RE: Help: Recording other peoples songs for demos?
From: MMario
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 12:50 PM

"published" and "recorded" are not synonomous. A previously published song may never have even been performed, let alone recorded. But (for example) if it is printed in a songbook and distributed (in some manner) to the public it is "published".


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Subject: RE: Help: Recording other peoples songs for demos?
From: Fortunato
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 12:55 PM

"Upchuck's Revenge". What a nauseating band name. What about "Chunks and the Hurlers"?


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Subject: RE: Help: Recording other peoples songs for demos?
From: GUEST,Arjay
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 10:02 PM

I have what may or may not be a dumb question:
If performing (or recording) a copyrighted song for profit costs 7 to 10 cents for each performance (or each copy of the CD or tape), why would restaurants be loath to sing "Happy Birthday" to guests celebrating their birthdays? For that matter, what's the big deal about using a few copyrighted songs on your demo and paying the royalties?

I do imagine, though, that if you are making only a handful of demo tapes, it could be a lot of red tape to deal with just to pay a couple of bucks in royalties.

MMario, you said:
"...commercial copyright violation involving more than 10 copies and value over $2500 was made a felony." Did you really mean "...and value over $2500," or did you mean to say ""...or value over..."? If it's as you wrote it, most of us performing a song a few dozen times or making a few dozen copies of a CD or tape would be safe, because the value would probably be under $2500. For that matter, it would mean that a giveaway demo or a songsheet run off just for fun would not involve copyright violation. I'm confused.

BTW, it's my understanding that if you write a song and print out a few copies to distribute at a song circle, complete with "© [your name and date]," that constitutes "publication" of the song. Am I wrong?

Also, of course, the copyright is yours from the time of creation, publication or none. The trick, of course, can be PROVING in court that you DID create the work, if you do not REGISTER the copyright.

Arjay


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Subject: RE: Help: Recording other peoples songs for demos?
From: MMario
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 10:11 PM

Arjay = as I copied it from the web site it was "and" - I have not found the actual legislation to check that. And "safe" from felony charges, yes - but you could still have a civil suit based on the actual copyright statutes.

yes - from what I have found - printing out a song and distributing it at a song circle ( or for that matter -posting it here to the mudcat) would constitute "publication"

and yes - the red tape can be a real headache - and if you go through the agencies - chances are the copyright holder will see only a fraction of the fee.


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