Lyr Req: Cruel Mother variant: Fine Flowers in...

Subject: Help:Cruel Mother varient
From: Hecate
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 08:30 AM

I've just been through all the "Cruel Mothers" amongst other things on this site, and to my frustration, the one I want isn't there. I know the first verse goes something like,

"Well she leaned her back against a thorn
Fine flowers in the valley
And two bonny bairns she there has born
And the green leaves they grow rarely."

I'm after a version with the fine flowers and green leaves lines - could any of you wonderful people furnish me with this? It might well be out there under other names - I'm sure I've heard it called "Fine flowers in the valley" if that helps.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Help:Cruel Mother varient
From: GUEST,DMcG
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 08:38 AM

I certainly have this - if no-one else responds I will dig the words out this evening (UK time!)

Subject: Lyr Add: FINE FLOWERS IN THE VALLEY
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 08:41 AM

http://www.contemplator.com/folk4/fineflwr.html has: Which is usually thought to be one of the Scots variants..

She sat down below a thorn,
  Fine flowers in the valley
And there she has her sweet babe born,
  And the green leaves they grow rarely.

“Smile nae sae sweet, my bonnie babe,
  Fine flowers in the valley
And ye smile sae sweet, ye'll smile me dead,”
  And the green leaves they grow rarely.

She's taen out her little penknife,
  Fine flowers in the valley
And twinn’d the sweet babe o' its life,
  And the green leaves they grow rarely.

She howket a grave by the light o' the moon,
  Fine flowers in the valley
And there she's buried her sweet babe in,
  And the green leaves they grow rarely.

As she was going to the church,
  Fine flowers in the valley
She saw a sweet babe in the porch,
  And the green leaves they grow rarely.

“O sweet babe, and thou wert mine,
  Fine flowers in the valley
I wad cleed thee in silk so fine,”
  And the green leaves they grow rarely.

“O mother dear, when I was thine,
  Fine flowers in the valley
You did na prove to me sae kind,”
  And the green leaves they grow rarely.

Cheers

Steven

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Help:Cruel Mother varient
From: masato sakurai
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 08:42 AM

This is probably the one asked for.

Fine Flowers in the Valley

~Masato

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Help:Cruel Mother varient
From: Diva
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 08:44 AM

And its in James Reeds Border Ballads...the same version. I've just done The Cruel Mother for a presentation on my Perspectives on Modern Scotland course.

Diva

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Help:Cruel Mother varient
From: masato sakurai
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 08:55 AM

Three CDs containing "Fine Flowers in the Valley " are available from Amazon (Bitter Ballads-Ancient & Modern ~ by Hillier, Lawrence-King; Shantalla; Richard Dyer-Bennet 1).

~Masato

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Help:Cruel Mother varient
From: Hecate
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 08:59 AM

many thanks for those - thinking about it I'm sure I heard a final verse in which the ghost child pronounces "it's me for heavan and you for hell." I don't suppose anyone know a version with that in? It never ceases to amaze me how many versions of any given song there seem to be about there.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Help:Cruel Mother varient
From: MMario
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 09:08 AM

Child 20M ends with:

But we are in the heavens high,
[And far frae the loch o the Loanie
] But ye hae the pains o hell to die.
[Before ye leave the green-wood sidie]

Version 20H has near the end:

Whaten a place hae ye prepard for me?
Heavens for us, but hells for thee.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Help:Cruel Mother varient
From: Bearheart
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 03:57 PM

Very interested in this. Where did you find it/who recorded it? Been singing a Canadian version that Ian and Sylvia did years ago, and a variant on the theme by Gordeana McColloch. I like to collect different versions, and this reads beautifully... Would like to get the music...

Bekki

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Help:Cruel Mother varient
From: Giac
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 04:13 PM

Bearheart --

If you follow the link that Masato gave above, it will take you to the Contemplator site and a midi will begin to play when the page opens.

Good luck,
Mary

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Help:Cruel Mother varient
From: Hecate
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 08:51 AM

I have heard a few versions here and there - mostly I can't remember where. I've heard Trefor and Vikci Williams sing it live, Uk based duo, but they aren't the only ones, and I'm not sure who I heard with the extra verse. Sorry I can't be more helpful.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Help:Cruel Mother varient
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 09:58 AM

The set quoted by Doug from Lesley Nelson's site (see Masato's link above) is taken from F.J. Child's English and Scottish Popular Ballads, being his example B.  Child got it from Johnson's The Scots Musical Museum (1787-), where a traditional source was not named, though Walter Scott (Minstrelsy of the Scottish Borders, 1803) quotes a close 5-stanza variant, without refrain, saying, "A fragment... which I have often heard sung in my childhood".  According to Buchan and Hall's The Scottish Folksinger (1973) the tune also comes from SMM, but as I inadvertently omitted to copy the relevant section of Bronson, I can't confirm that at present.  The new edition of Child gives that tune with example L (another Fine Flowers variant), deriving from Smith's Scottish Minstrel, and includes no tune for B.

I put a reasonably exhaustive list of links to this and to other variants and related material available at reliable websites in this earlier thread:  The Cruel Mother

The two American examples, both Down By the Greenwood Side variants, at the  Max Hunter Folk Song Collection  were not, I think, available at that time.

The song persists in tradition to this day, and has also been very popular with revival singers over the last forty years or so, so identifying that final verse might not be easy.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Help:Cruel Mother varient
From: rich-joy
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 05:45 AM

Scottish singer, Barbara Dickson, did a nice version of "Fine Flowers in the Valley" on her 1972 Decca album entitled "From the Beggar's Mantle ... Fringed With Gold" ~ she used Gavin Greig's "Last Leaves of Traditional Ballads" as a source ...
Cheers! R-J

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Help:Cruel Mother varient
From: GUEST,julia
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 06:06 PM

Does anyone know a cruel mother that starts "there was a lady lived in NY" instead of York? I have it pretty much from my dad but he doesn't remember the source and there are some shady parts... Might be called Holy and Lonely

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Help:Cruel Mother varient
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 06:23 PM

It's here in the Database; typing lady lived in new york or similar into the very useful "Digitrad and Forum Search" box on the main Forum page brings it up straight away.  THE CRUEL MOTHER (4)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Help:Cruel Mother varient
From: GUEST,CraigS
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 06:25 PM

Very closely related to The Well Below the Valley - recorded by Planxty, ca 1974

Seven years a bird in the wood Seven years a fish in the stream Seven years to ring at the bell And seven years to burn in hell At the well below the valley - o Green grow the lilies - o Right among the bushes - o

There are lots of Irish versions of the Cruel Mother, but not many written down or printed because most involve incestuous relationships.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Help:Cruel Mother varient
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 06:59 PM

The Well Below the Valley, to which I referred in the list of links I mentioned earlier, is not a Cruel Mother (Child #20) variant but a traditional form of The Maid and the Palmer (Child #21); they do have motifs in common, of course.  It's been recorded from tradition only once in Ireland, from John Reilly, though obviously it must have had some currency before then. The two texts in Child are from England and Scotland.

I don't know of any Cruel Mother variants (Irish or otherwise) involving incest, though a number of other songs deal with it.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Help:Cruel Mother varient
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 07:12 PM

Mick West does a very good version on his first CD, 'Fine Flowers and Foolish Glances' (1995). He says he learned it from Archie Fisher, and gives SMM as the source.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Help:Cruel Mother varient
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 02:59 PM

Mick West does a very good version on his first CD, 'Fine Flowers and Foolish Glances' (1995). He says he learned it from Archie Fisher, and gives SMM as the source.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Help:Cruel Mother varient
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 03:09 PM

Oops! My PC said I couldn't get through last night! (Just a sly way of refreshing the thread, actually ...)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Help:Cruel Mother varient
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 05:25 PM

The 'York' and 'New York' versions stem from the original English broadside version, "The Duke's Daughter's Cruelty". It's in the Scarce Songs 2 file at www.erols.com/olsonw. Child found it after Vol. I was published and it's Child# 20N in the 'Additions and Corrections' in Vol. II.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Help:Cruel Mother varient
From:
Date: 28 Feb 03 - 11:00 PM

I have a pirate tape of Irish songs off an old LP--Male and female singer in close harmony. The verses are a little different than anything I've seen on this site. The mother comits suicide with her baby, and there is no mention of posthumous punishment.Can anyone help me locate lyrics, discography?

There were three sisters going to school
all round (?) the Lorry-oh
they saw a lady by a pool
down by the greenwood side-oh

She held a baby on her knee..
and a cruel....

She held the baby to her heart...
she said, "Dear baby, we soon must part...

She held the baby to her breast..
She said, "Dear baby, we'll both find rest...

There is a river, wide and deep
all round the Lorry-o
And there both mother and baby sleep
Down by the greenwood side Oh

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Help:Cruel Mother varient
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 25 May 05 - 07:54 AM

You can listen to a beautiful rendition on the Shantalla website:
http://www.shantalla.com

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Help:Cruel Mother varient
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 26 May 05 - 02:08 AM

Maud's question seems to have been missed first time around (I assume that Allen's post isn't in answer to it, as Shantalla play an arrangement of a quite different, Scottish form of the song). Two years on is rather late, but since this thread is back from the dead anyway I may as well make a stab at an answer.

Peg and Bobby Clancy would seem possible; they sang a form of the song, All Around the Loney-O, beginning "There were two sisters going to school", which appeared originally(?) on Traditional Songs of Ireland, Olympic OL 6172 (1960s some time; Seamus Ennis also recorded Bobby singing it on his own for the BBC in 1960) and later on various compilations. The Makem website mentions Irish Folk Airs: The Clancy Brothers and Tommy Makem & Their Families (Tradition 2083) and The Clancy Brothers and Tommy Makem with Their Families    (Hallmark CHM 630).

I haven't heard the recording, of course, so I don't know how close it might be to Maud's recollection, or whether it was what she was thinking of at all, but it seems a reasonable starting point. Somebody round here must have it. Comments?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Help:Cruel Mother varient
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 26 May 05 - 06:05 AM

A rather comedown version used by my mother and her friends for a dancing game (no details) in the 1920s, at Agecroft west of Manchester. A dreadful retribution for illicit sex and child murder becomes a safety warning about the use of knives:

There was a lady dressed in green
Airey-airey-aye-do
There was a lady dressed in green
Down by the river side-o

She had a baby in her arms
Airey-airey-aye-do
She had a baby in her arms
Down by the river side-o

She had a penknife in her hand
Airey-airey-aye-do
She had a penknife in her hand
Down by the river side-o

She stuck the knife in the baby's arm
Airey-airey-aye-do
She stuck the knife in the baby's arm
Down by the river side-o

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Help:Cruel Mother varient
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 26 May 05 - 06:13 AM

Sounds like Weila-Waliah (sp?).

Subject: RE: Cruel Mother as sung by Peg & Bob Clancy
From: Joybell
Date: 11 May 08 - 08:06 PM

I've just got hold of the Bob and Peg Clancy recording noted above by Malcolm Douglas. Without adding to the tangle that this song has produced I'll add these comments here.

The words are essentially the same as those given by Jimmy C on 28th of Jul 2000 on the thread titled: Penguin: The Cruel Mother (15) Lyr Add: ALL ROUND THE LONEY O.
The second line and the title as "All Around the Loney-o", though, and that makes it easier to track down.   

These lyrics are not given anywhere else online that I can see, although the title is given in several places.

Here's the really interesting bit -- The tune is very different from the others I've heard. It's pretty much a simplified version of "Caulter's Candy" sung very slowly. There is a downward swoop in the third line, making that bit slightly different.
Sorry to add to the tangles if this is already common knowledge.
Cheers, Joy