ADD: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc (bawdy)

Subject: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: little john cameron
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 11:04 AM

Now I sit me down in school
Where praying is against the rule
For this great nation under God
Finds mention of Him very odd.

If Scripture now the class recites,
It violates the Bill of Rights.
And anytime my head I bow
Becomes a Federal matter now.

Our hair can be purple, orange or green,
That's no offence; it's a freedom scene.
The law is specific, the law is precise.
For praying in a public hall
Might offend someone with no faith at all.

In silence alone we must meditate,
God's name is prohibited by the state.
We're allowed to cuss and dress like freaks,
And pierce our noses, tongues and cheeks.

They've outlawed guns, but FIRST the Bible.
To quote the Good Book makes me liable.
We can elect a pregnant Senior Queen,
And the 'unwed daddy,' our Senior King.

It's "inappropriate" to teach right from wrong,
We're taught that such "judgments" do not belong.
We can get our condoms and birth controls,
Study witchcraft, vampires and totem poles.

But the Ten Commandments are not allowed,
No word of God must reach this crowd.
It's scary here I must confess,
When chaos reigns the school's a mess.
So, Lord, this silent plea I make:

Amen

this was written by a student.ljc

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 11:41 AM

Aint that the truth LJC Fuck em all, pray and say what you like.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 11:48 AM

ballocks - you can pray out loud anytime anywhere, just don't MAKE students in classrooms have to pray or make it awkward for students to decline to do so. Pray on the street, pray in a building, out loud, anytime, but don't require others to join in, and not under the auspices of governmental agencies, including school boards and administrations.

How hard is this to understand?

No one is taking away your rights, so stop encroaching on others rights. The US is NOT, I repeat, NOT a 'Christian Nation'. It wasn't founded as one, it will never become one. It is a secular country that allows the freedom of practice of any and all religions, and does not sponsor a State religion. This 'Nation under God' thing didn't begin until the 1950's, with the Red scare of 'Godless' Communism, which was just a ruse to get the 'good Christian folk' to join the anti-Communism, and anti-union, and anti-Socialism crusade. And, sadly, it worked. Communism and Socialism as systems are not evil though particular regimes may be. What do you think is the system under which nuns and monls and priests live if not Communism? From each according to his abilities to each according to his needs. They give up thier worldy goods and give a life of service and in return they are housed and fed and given a little spending money to do with what they like (a generalisation, but basically sound). & Northern Europe has many Socialist states that support or allow religious practices. The Soviet Union did not. Cuba is beginning to.

So the great evil of Communism, that it is godless and suppresses religious practice is not a part of its philosophy, any more than the US Constitution is in anyway a testament to the Christian beliefs of its creators.

Practice whatever religion you like, just don't make everyone else have to join you. Leave our schools alone. Get out of our government and look to your own salvation in your churches, synagogues, mosques, temples, shrines and homesand in your daily lives.

And every now and then we can all get together and sing some good old time hymns we all know and love, whether we believe in what they espouse or not!

And why is it a surprise that this was written by a teen? Shakespeare it ain't, but it's not bad, it scans pretty well, but teens are pretty smart, inteligent, generaly ok folk. Leave em alone, give them some space to hang out, do thier thing, and they'll be ok.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: little john cameron
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 11:55 AM

For"CHRIST SAKE!!!"Bill,that's the maist Oxymorons ah've ever seen in a single post.Whit a pile o' rubbish.ljc

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST,haryoungsr
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 12:01 PM

i for one think schools should be a place where no religion is celebrated in our schools i see xmas trees xmas decorations but no kwanzaa,ramadan,a bit chanukah but only a token amount there ought to be a law schools are disgracefula t xmas time time to close them down from thanksgiving to after new years

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: RichM
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 12:16 PM

The question is, whose god should people worship?

Mine?
Yours?
His?
Hers?
Theirs?

Already, it's complicated.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: TonyK
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 12:20 PM

LJC: I support your right to express your opinion. I thought the choice of language in your post, intolerant, was not something that would attract a prospective Christian. To my recollection, the only people Jesus did not tolerate well were the religious intollerants. Love God and love your neighbor.

Bill K: I like your post a lot.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST,ferret
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 12:25 PM

live and let live

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: little john cameron
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 12:37 PM

Whit bit is it ye object tae Tony? ljc.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 12:50 PM

What did you learn in school today?
Mommy, I learned how to pray
I asked Jesus to forgive my sins
For my heart's where the devil's work begins

It's good they're teaching wrong from right
And the schools have finally seen the light

What did you learn in school today?
Mommy, we followed the Jewish way
We learned that Jesus was a phoney
And for lunch, they wouldn't let us eat bologna

Well, I don't think that those higher powers
Should teach beliefs that are not ours!

Today we prayed on knees and hands
Towards the place where Mecca stands
At Islam, teacher had us look
She'd read all about it in a book
What's next? Of Paganism will they speak?
Well no, at least not till next week.

Mom, religions they have stopped explaining
Too many parents were complaining
That beliefs should not be taught by teachers
And they were better left to preachers

I'm glad that they finally saw the light
Prayer in school just isn't right

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 01:25 PM

I'm not big on teaching religious instruction or celebration in school, but we damn sure need classes on ethical behavior, since so many kids get their concept of right and wrong from MTV.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: SharonA
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 01:52 PM

Amen to that, LEJ! ';^)

Ljc: What bit of Bill's post did you object to? The only part I had trouble with was the concept that teenagers will be "ok" if they're left alone to hang out. Perhaps that works if they're not left alone as children – if they're brought up to be mindful of others' rights and feelings and respectful of their own bodies and characters – but sometimes, even then, they don't turn out "ok."

By the way, were there some lines missing from the original poem? I see no rhyming line for "The law is specific, the law is precise." I assume that there was no rhyming line for "So, Lord, this silent plea I make:" since it was a silent plea!

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: little john cameron
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 01:52 PM

Mah point isnae aboot teachin Religion,it is aboot no' bein aloud tae say ah wee prayer tae whaever.Look aroon ye,the bloody place is gaun doon the tubes. ljc

Subject: Ya...
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 01:54 PM

Religion has no place in a school... A school is an institute for higher learning...

Ya want religion?

Go to the building down the street with the stain glass windows and the bell!

And while I'm at it... this is a family place... can we keep the profanity, at least out of the subject lines???

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: SharonA
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 01:56 PM

Didn't Jesus teach that prayers are best said in private, where only God can hear?

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 02:00 PM

Is your english as bad as your scots Cameon..you are shameful in both from what I can see. I wish you would stop that silly dialect thing. You do it badly and it makes it difficult to understand you, which is the point of communicating, is it not.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Amos
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 02:00 PM

John:

As far as I know, noone has been forbidden from praying. The law at least at the Constitutional level is against the establishment of any religion or religous sponsorship by the government. This mandate is called "the separation of Church and State", colloquially. It is NOT called "the separation of religion and individual".

The issue is that our government must NOT support one religion or another in any way the encroaches on the freedom of individuals to worship as they choose.

I grant you that the current Residency is striving mightily to weasel the issue and duck the principle. But that is the source policy.

IO highly concur that an education in the nature of ethics and philosophy would be a wonderful thing to require of high schools.

I am sure there are those who would whine about that too!! "We don't need no stinking Greek philosophers -- buncha furriners!! I get all the fee-losofy I need from this here Aramaic testamentary!!"

A

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 02:02 PM

The Christian right is forever misrepresenting the law to make it appear that they are victims. The law does NOT say you can't pray in public schools. (Which is not to say there has never been a school official somewhere who has misunderstood the law and incorrectly TRIED to prevent students from praying in school.)

What the law mainly says is that teachers and administrators in public schools can't LEAD prayers or order that prayers be said. But if students on their own initiative decide to pray, there's nothing you can do to stop them. (Unless they're doing it in a disruptive way somehow, but you wouldn't want to do that anyway, would you?)

But if you ask me, there are plenty of good RELIGIOUS reasons not to pray aloud in public schools.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: SharonA
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 02:03 PM

I found the reference for my last post: Matthew 6:6

Here are the first 6 verses of Matthew 6 (King James Version of the New Testament):

[1] Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
[2] Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
[3] But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
[4] That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.
[5] And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
[6] But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.


I don't know if the other major (or minor) religions have similar edicts, but many Christians tend to ignore this one!

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Amos
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 02:05 PM

Beautiful prose, eh?

We'd all do well to take it to heart regardless of which metaphysical convictions we choose.

A

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Kim C
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 02:39 PM

When I was in the 4th grade, in 1976, my public elementary school did a holiday program wherein Christmas and Hanukkah traditions were included. Nobody batted an eye, nobody made a peep. 'Course that was a long time ago.

I think what is happening is that some people want to strive for diversity but only for the minority populations, then the majority populations feel slighted. Does that make sense?

Sure, there's no law in the US against praying wherever you want to. But what happens is that some well-meaning people misinterpret that to mean that Jimmy can't say a blessing to himself before he eats his lunch in the cafeteria.

Has anyone considered the idea of approaching religion in school from a historical standpoint? Whether a person participates in a religious faith or not, religion is a worldwide concept which often dictates how people behave. I think it could be useful for young people to learn about it from a factual basis.

Anyway.... I'm not sure exactly what I'm trying to say...

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 02:50 PM

where is the anecdotal or other evidence that Jimmy couldn't say his blessing?

If there was such a case, shame, stupid. But I don't believe there has been or ever will be such a case.

Make up something more egregiously outrageous and stupid, and people will again say, 'yeah that's wrong'. But it hasn't happened.

'Jimmy, say all the prayers you want at lunch or anywhere else'. Some other kids might make fun of you if your lips move too much, but kids are cruel.

There are courses in History of Religion in must colleges and universities, some high schools, but my fear is that courses like this might become teach all about Christianity for 8 months and spend a month on all the other religions, if that. And again, I have no evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, that this has ever happened, and so I'm not giving an example of what abuse has occurred, but I can see that it might happen in some communities. And ad hominem attacks do not advance your argument or support your theories. to each his own.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Willie-O
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 03:04 PM

Wey-ell, Ah'm confused.

Most posters here are assuming this is about (aboot) the US of A. John, aren't you still in Newfoundland? (a province where a religious-based school system has been the norm until very recently--change is occurring now, I believe. Is that what prompted this?)

And anywhere that is enjoying a neo-conservative governmental regime, it ain't exactly a "freedom scene" in high school. Dress codes, limited arts options, and lots of uninspired fact-cramming passing for a "new curriculum"--I'm speaking as a parent of a very bright 15-year-old who is flunking out of grade 10 because it won't meet her halfway (and neither will she).

We fought and won the battle against compulsory school prayer and "religious education" years ago. I'm still glad about that, but there's little more to cheer for in the current educational regime.

And someone who would lump together "vampires, witchcraft and totem poles", in an apparently negative context, needs a broadening of horizons more than a prayer meeting.

W-O

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 03:20 PM

Gee, I got some really neat-o religious spam, written by some ignorant lower-midwestern cow posing as a poor, oppressed Xtian teenager in my inbox today! Maybe I should cut and paste it here, too? :P

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: SharonA
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 03:41 PM

Willie-O: The poem that ljc posted refers, in the first stanza, to "this great nation under God". I suppose that most Americans would take this as a reference to the US Pledge of Allegiance. ljc didn't say where he found the poem, or where the student was from, so we can't assume that the author is someone ljc knows.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 03:59 PM

"Freedom of religion must necessarily imply the right to freedom from religion for those who so choose"

pray all you wish, but not AT me, not as part of the school procesure, and not in a way that assumes I am in agreement with your prayer/diety.

(and {USA} take those two words back out of the "Pledge of Allegience" and those four words off my money!)

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 04:14 PM

Bill D. hear, hear, but first of all why is there a Pledge of Allegiance? do away with the whole thing, AND take those four words of the money, AND stop the swearing-in of our government leaders on a Christian bible, etc. There has been more and more encroachment of religion into our civil institutions over time, and many people today do not even know that those words weren't on money until 1864, or that there was no Pledge of Allegiance until 1892 (written by a Christian Socialist), with no mention of 'under god' in it until the Knights of Columbus rammed it through a red hunting Congress in 1954, and that there is no law requiring it be said in schools or anywhere else until recently. We do not threaten the majority, just leave us be free! by 'we' I mean all individuals, ----believers in god, or gods, or satan, or nothing, or whatever.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST,Chuck the Canuck
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 04:42 PM

Hey Little John Cameron,

Aren't you supposed to be Canadian? All of the stuff cited in your poem might pertain to the U.S.A. with its constitutionally mandated separation of church and state, but that is not the case in Canada.

The Lord's Prayer is still recited at the beginning of the day in many Canadian schools. As a Jew who was forced to learn the Lord's Prayer when I went to school, I wish we had that separation here.

Chuck the Canuck

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 05:09 PM

ljc, I just heard on the CBC news about the two boys in Corner Brook who have been arrested for planning to kill a bunch of people. Is that what's got you feeling like the place is going down the tubes?

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 05:33 PM

It has been almost two years since the murders at Columbine High School. The press never covered this presentation to the US government last year. The message has not changed.

Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 Subject: The Country Needs to Hear this - Not in the news

On Thursday, Darrell Scott, the father of Rachel Scott, a victim of the Columbine High School shootings in Littleton, Colorado, was invited to address the House Judiciary Committee's subcommittee. What he said to our national leaders during this special session of Congress was painfully truthful.

They were not prepared for what he was to say, nor was it received well.

It needs to be heard by every parent, every teacher, every politician, every sociologist, every psychologist, and every so-called expert! These courageous words spoken by Darrell Scott are powerful, penetrating, and deeply personal. There is no doubt that God sent this man as a voice crying in the wilderness. The following is a portion of the transcript:

"Since the dawn of creation there has been both good & evil in the hearts of men and women. We all contain the seeds of kindness or the seeds of violence. The death of my wonderful daughter, Rachel Joy Scott, and the deaths of that heroic teacher, and the other eleven children who died must not be in vain. Their blood cries out for answers."

"The first recorded act of violence was when Cain slew his brother Abel out in the field. The villain was not the club he used. Neither was it the NCA, the National Club Association. The true killer was Cain, and the reason for the murder could only be found in Cain's heart. "In the days that followed the Columbine tragedy, I was amazed at how quickly fingers began to be pointed at groups such as the NRA."

"I am not a member of the NRA. I am not a hunter. I do not even own a gun. I am not here to represent or defend the NRA - because I don't believe that they are responsible for my daughter's death. Therefore I do not believe that they need to be defended. If I believed they had anything to do with Rachel's murder I would be their strongest opponent. "I am here today to declare that Columbine was not just a tragedy-it was a spiritual event that should be forcing us to look at where the real blame lies! Much of the blame lies here in this room. Much of the blame lies behind the pointing fingers of the accusers themselves."

"I wrote a poem just four nights ago that expresses my feelings best. This was written way before I knew I would be speaking here today:

"Your laws ignore our deepest needs, Your words are empty air. You've stripped away our heritage, You've outlawed simple prayer.

Now gunshots fill our classrooms, And precious children die. You seek for answers everywhere, And ask the question "Why?"

You enact restrictive laws, Through legislative creed. And yet you fail to understand, That God is what we need!"

"Men and women are three-part beings. We all consist of body, soul, and spirit. When we refuse to acknowledge a third part of our make-up, we create a void that allows evil, prejudice, and hatred to rush in and reek havoc. Spiritual presence's were present within our educational systems for most of our nation's history. Many of our major colleges began as theological seminaries. This is a historical fact. What has happened to us as a nation? We have refused to honor God, and in so doing, we open the doors to hatred and violence. And when something as terrible as Columbine's tragedy occurs politicians immediately look for a scapegoat such as the NRA. They immediately seek to pass more restrictive laws that contribute to erode away our personal and private liberties. We do not need more restrictive laws."

"Eric and Dylan would not have been stopped by metal detectors. No amount of gun laws can stop someone who spends months planning this type of massacre. The real villain lies within our own hearts. Political posturing and restrictive legislation are not the answers. The young people of our nation hold the key. There is a spiritual awakening taking place that will not be squelched! We do not need more religion. We do not need more gaudy television evangelists spewing out verbal religious garbage. We do not need more million dollar church buildings built while people with basic needs are being ignored."

"We do need a change of heart and a humble acknowledgment that this nation was founded on the principle of simple trust in God! As my son Craig lay under that table in the school library and saw his two friends murdered before his very eyes. He did not hesitate to pray in school. I defy any law or politician to deny him that right! I challenge every young person in America, and around the world, to realize that on April 20, 1999, at Columbine High School prayer was brought back to our schools. Do not let the many prayers offered by those students be in vain."

"Dare to move into the new millennium with a sacred disregard for legislation that violates your God-given right to communicate with Him. To those of you who would point your finger at the NRA - I give to you a sincere challenge. Dare to examine your own heart before casting the first stone! My daughter's death will not be in vain! The young people of this country will not allow that to happen!" +++

Do what the media did not - - let people hear this man's speech. Please send it out to everyone you can!

The problem is probably even worse here in Canada

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: gnu
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 06:19 PM

I am moved... in two ways. First, it's quite a speech. Second, before it's sent out by anyone, can it be verified as correct and actually given to the House Judiciary Committee's subcommittee by this individual ?

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 06:47 PM

"As a Jew who was forced to learn the Lord's Prayer when I went to school..." But surely it's really a Jewish prayer anyway to start with? (The only problem with it, according to this rabbi, appears to when people call it "the Lord's Prayer" rather than the Our Father. It's always been the Our Father for me.

"Some other kids might make fun of you if your lips move too much, but kids are cruel." So that's all right? And that doesn't interfere with the freedom to worship?

I think there is much more danger that a ban on public prayer is likely to generate fundamantalism than the reverse. If people laugh at you for praying in public and you go ahead and pray in public anyway, that's very brave - but you could be well on the way towards becoming vulnerable to fanaticism. Whatever your religion.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Willie-O
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 07:02 PM

It's pretty sad to see a parent who has been through personal tragedy simultaneously disclaim any sympathy the NRA while acting as a mouthpiece for their most cherished and often-repeated piece of nonsense the "guns don't kill people" argument. Which is PURE BULLSHIT.

And by the way, re "no amount of gun laws can can stop someone who spends months planning this type of massacre." Well, I beg to differ. A teenager tried to re-enact his version of Columbine in a high school two miles from the one I went to (in Ottawa). This occurred on the first anniversary of the massacre. Guess what: he stabbed five people including himself. They all lived.

Cause he couldn't get a gun...

W-O

There ain't no God...obviously.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: gnu
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 07:16 PM

"PURE BULLSHIT" Willie-O is the fact that this society we live in doesn't give a shit about about the problems of the poor, the dis-enfranchised, the inequailties... ad infintum. Simple fact is, guns do not kill people, period, and no amount of shouting otherwise can change that FACT. If people like you keep spouting your bullshit instead of making the powers that be address the real problems, YOU ARE THE FUCKING PROBLEM.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 07:18 PM

Christ, people are cranky around here today...

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: gnu
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 07:24 PM

Yup, especially when I hear that kind of absolute bullshit. If you don't address why people kill people, their choice of weapon doesn't even enter the equation, and some people can't even ADD !!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: michaelr
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 07:38 PM

See why I think political/religious arguments are a waste of time? Let's talk (not shout) about music, where there's at least some chance for consensus.

And save me, Lord, from your followers.

Peace,
Michael

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: ddw
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 08:01 PM

I'm moved, too. Made me wanna puke. It is just the kind of misrepresentation of the facts that posters above have been trying to explain. Nobody has passed any laws OUTLAWING prayer. They have only outlawed FORCED PRAYER. At least the guy got it right that it is not the NRA's fault, but then he loses it for the same reason most believers lose it: they can't imagine how anybody can object to their beliefs, even when they try to force them on the non-believers. Learn a basic truth, folks —- some people find religion at least as offensive as religious people find non-belief.

Seems to me, then, that the best thing is to just shut up about it.

Morality and ethics can and should be taught without any religious base —— just start from the precept that human beings have to live in societies and extrapolate what any action would to the that society if everyone practised it. You can reach some pretty good decisions that way.

BTW, ljc, who would you have lead the prayers in your schools —— the priests and bishops of Boston? Or some of their MANY Canadian counterparts?

david

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 08:06 PM

Well you can always kill someone with a paperweight. But that's really not what they are for. And you can always use a pistol as a paperweight. But that's really not what it's for either.

If you want to kill a lot of people a gun it's much easier to do with with a gun than with a conventional paperweight.

And if you want to get people killing each other, arguing anbout religion is quite a good starting point.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: The Pooka
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 08:35 PM

Whew. This is not the best-humored of threads. / However.

Mr. McG. of H., as usual you speak wisdom. Right On, on both counts---especially the latter, which nicely reconnects the split ends into which this here thread has ravelled. For an end to the worship of the graven idol of the gun: Let us Pray.

ljc, what policies are there on school prayer in Scotland? (As you know, I for one dinna mind if ye answer in dialect.)

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: John P
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 09:02 PM

How amusing that someone complaining about the separation of church and state, and claiming that morals are not taught in schools, uses extreme profanity in the title of a thread on an open forum.

How offensive that so many people apparently think we can't behave ethically unless we are steeped in religious teachings.

How amazing that so many people persist in the belief that guns don't exist to kill people and aren't uniquely suited to that task, and that the NRA doesn't bear any responisbility for the easy availability of these deadly devices.

How sad -- and bigoted -- that anyone thinks Christianity makes any more or any less sense than "vampires, witchcraft, and totem poles."

How strange that any Christian in the Western world, especially the United States, given the vast number of laws we all have to live with that are Christian in origin, would believe that their rights are being trampled.

How sinful for a religious person to think that anyone could ever stop you from praying -- if your real goal is to commune with god, not the loud proclamation of your faith.

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: The Pooka
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 09:26 PM

Oh dear.

Well anyway - ljc, before you finally eff-a' tae dae wi' music, an sae rantin'ly & sae wantonly gae over tae the politics altogether, have you peeked at all these "Tyneside" Lyr Add's being posted tonight?? In me ignorance I dunno if they're Scots or Northumberland or both, or wot; but I thought mebbe ye might like 'em. (Sure are a *lot* of 'em.) Just thought I'd mention it. Y'know, before the next incoming barrage, here. / Woops! Duck!!

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 09:28 PM

I think they're Geordie songs. That would be Yorkshire, right?

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 09:40 PM

Find one piece of interesting commentary (that does not fit the normal Left Wing Social Engineering) and nobody asks why it wasnt reported to the population by the media? Had he condemed the NRA it would be front page news, and quoted for years afterwards. I find it sad.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: gnu
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 09:45 PM

Rest ye well when the power of the gun is only in the hands of the rich. Just remember, you are the ones that gave it to them. You think there is disparity now ? You won't even have a voice at the Cafe. Study some history or be doomed to repeat it.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: John P
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 10:09 PM

Guest,
Perhaps the Columbine father's words to Congress were not widely reported because his speech was rather idiotic. He states that the reason there are people killing each other in schools is because we are no longer enforcing Christianity as a state-sponsored religion in our schools. I know that the man was in a lot of pain, and I feel deeply for his loss, but the whole concept is stupid. He also apparently feels, as do some of the people who have contributed to this thread, that individual prayer has in some way been outlawed. I for one am glad the press didn't see fit to trumpet this man's belief in the superstitions of the Christian mythology. Would you find it odd if the press failed to report someone standing before a congressional committee and telling them that all the problems in our schools would be solved if every student was given a pyramid shaped crystal and told to use it every day to meditate on peace?

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: little john cameron
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 10:20 PM

If ye wid take time tae read the post ye'll notice that ah never said ah agreed or disagreed wi' the poem.
This wis an email ah got yesterday.Ane o' they pass-it-oan thingies.Personally ah couldnae care less whether it is alood or no,although ah doot ye could stop the youngsters fechtin an' scrappin long enough for a prayer.Hae ye been in the schoolyaird lately?
There must be some reason,no' the prayin or lack o' it,why the youngsters are oot o' control.If ye want tae hear language jist try listenin tae them.
Mibbe ah should hae postit the original.Here it is,an' naw it wasnae Susan!!
--------------------------------------------

FW: Fwd: Fw: Please Pass it on!!!

> > > > > > Since the Pledge of Allegiance > > > > > > and > > > > > > The Lord's Prayer > > > > > > are not allowed in most > > > public schools anymore > > > > > > because the word "God" is mentioned.... > > > > > > a kid in Arizona wrote the attached > > > NEW > > > School > > > prayer. > > > > > > I liked it.... > > > > > > > > > Now I sit me down in school > > > > > > Where praying is against the rule > > > > > > For this great nation under God > > > > > > Finds mention of Him very odd. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If Scripture now the class recites, > > > > > > It violates the Bill of Rights. > > > > > > And anytime my head I bow > > > > > > Becomes a Federal matter now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Our hair can be purple, orange or green, > > > > > > That's no offence; it's a freedom scene. > > > > > > The law is specific, the law is precise. > > > > > > Prayers spoken aloud are a serious vice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For praying in a public hall > > > > > > Might offend someone with no faith at all. > > > > > > In silence alone we must meditate, > > > > > > God's name is prohibited by the state. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We're allowed to cuss and dress like freaks, > > > > > > And pierce our noses, tongues and cheeks. > > > > > > They've outlawed guns, but FIRST the Bible. > > > > > > To quote the Good Book makes me liable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We can elect a pregnant Senior Queen, > > > > > > And the 'unwed daddy,' our Senior King. > > > > > > It's "inappropriate" to teach right from wrong, > > > > > > We're taught that such "judgments" do not belong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We can get our condoms and birth controls, > > > > > > Study witchcraft, vampires and totem poles. > > > > > > But the Ten Commandments are not allowed, > > > > > > No word of God must reach this crowd. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's scary here I must confess, > > > > > > When chaos reigns the school's a mess. > > > > > > So, Lord, this silent plea I make: > > > > > > Should I be shot; My soul please take! > > > > > > Amen > > > > > > > > > > > > If you aren't ashamed to do this, > > > > > > please pass this on. > > > > > > > > > Jesus said, > > > > > > " If you are ashamed of me," > > > > > > I will be ashamed of you before my Father." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not ashamed. Passing this on . . > > >

> > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com. >

---------------------------------------------

Ye'll also notice that ah hae postit "ljc" oan mah headins lately so that ah'll no' upset the sensibilities o' the language polis. Mah apologies for the "word" oan the title o' that ane.Should be ok in here though so fuck,fuck ,fuck.Ah that felt guid.ljc

ps,it wiil probably come oot funny as ah cannae be bothered wi' the line breks!!!

. ____________________________________________________ IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST,MerryBee
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 10:46 PM

gnu, anagram of 'gun'perhaps. Big reaction from you,BIG!!I guess you're a strong N.R.A. supporter from that sort of jumping up and down.See that's the big problem with you boys and your toys your'e just too busey playing.

MB

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: The Pooka
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 10:57 PM

CarolC - thanks. I dunno this stuff. I was guessing vaguely, from the "Tyneside" reference in the Lyr Adds. Actually I was just trying to distract ljc. To wit:

ljc, since yer back -- fuggedabout yer Topic fer a minnit; wot d'ye say aboot them Tyneside songs? :)

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: little john cameron
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 11:05 PM

Ah love that stuff.We could stert anither rammy aboot whether it is a language or a dialect. ljc

Ah hae a bunch o' Stanly Holloway oan audio if ye want.PM ME YER EMAIL IF YE DAE.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 11:13 PM

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 11:26 PM

Yeah, The Pooka. I guess maybe you're right. It was the word "divvent" in the song "Divvent Bother Us" that made me think of Geordie dialect. They've had some good threads on that subject in the past and for some reason that one stuck in my mind.

So now my big question is; are Geordies just from Yorkshire or are they also from Northumberland? Or does Northumberland have a dialect that is similar in some ways to that of Yorkshire?

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Tweed
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 11:37 PM

L.John C., Ya poked the snake and look at it go! Good on you!

Tweed

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: little john cameron
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 11:44 PM

Aye it disnae take much Tweed. ljc

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: The Pooka
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 11:51 PM

CarolC - I dinna ken who's "right" but hurrah! fer we've provoked ol' ljc inter commentatin' a weebit upon the eff-aw' *music*! In betwixt th' Prayers & the Guns y'know. :)

Geordie, Yorkshire, Hieland, Northumberland, it's still rock 'n' roll tae me.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 12:10 AM

Ye're haudin' the cat's erse tae the sun again, ljc!!!!!

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 06:12 AM

JP: his point was that we have replaced Christianity with something that ignores spirit... namely a void... Morals and Law, are all based on Judeo/Christian morals. Your form of government was based on Indian beliefs, which include a supreme deity are they not?

And for the individual who was emotional and somewhat deranged. Guns dont kill people, people kill people (with whatever implents and devices they can) If you attach moral culpability to an inamiate object, you are being irrational as well as arrogant and unpleasant in your arguments.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Tweed
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 06:42 AM

Exactly correct, I'd much rather be shot down in the street as to being blown up in the street, or paperweighted to death in Pier One and give thanks for Charleton Heston every morning for the NRA, who works to be sure that if you,as an American citizen,happen to piss somebody off you can be dispatched quickly and efficiently by the superior fire power available to any loony who can sign their name. A far more civilized death than can be attained with a paperweight, shoehorn or scented candle.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 06:54 AM

I knew if it went long enough I could find a good laugh in this sucker...............

Spaw

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 07:35 AM

Charleton Heston and the NRA are largely responsible for promoting safe gun handling, by education and supporting existing gun legislation, and law enforcement. The NRA are a group of responsible gun owners involved in the shooting sports, who are as horrified as you are about rampant violence. Every time I hear of the Social Engineering Liberals who ignore these facts and criticise such endeavours I cringe...

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 07:47 AM

I must have mis-read the thread title. Ignoring the expletive, I thought it was a thread "all to do with music"

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 08:16 AM

"How amusing that someone complaining about the separation of church and state, and claiming that morals are not taught in schools, uses extreme profanity in the title of a thread on an open forum." (JohnP)

Profane? I can't see profaniuty in that thread title. "To treat sacred objects with irreverence, violence or disrespect." I suppose you could say that sexual activity is in some sense a sacred object, and that in some way the thread title is treating it with disprespect. At a pinch.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 08:16 AM

"How amusing that someone complaining about the separation of church and state, and claiming that morals are not taught in schools, uses extreme profanity in the title of a thread on an open forum." (JohnP)

Profane? I can't see profaniuty in that thread title. "To treat sacred objects with irreverence, violence or disrespect." I suppose you could say that sexual activity is in some sense a sacred object, and that in some way the thread title is treating it with disprespect. At a pinch.

CarolC: Geordies come from Yorkshire in the same sense that Yankees come from Texas. There used to be a little bit of Yorkshire which to outsiders where the accent sounded a bit like Geordie, but they cut it off and made a separate county called Cleveland. And they don't count as Geordies either.

Here is a site arguing about these things Basically Geordie means from Newcastle, but it's extended often to mean the people who speak thelanguage, living in the area where the language is spoken, which is essentially that part of the old kingdom of Northumbria which is on the English side of the biorder with Scotland.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 08:29 AM

The men who drafted our constitution over two hundred years ago were much better educated and more politically sophisticated than any politicians we see hanging about today. We thank God that they left us the benefit of their wisdom!

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: SharonA
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 09:37 AM

Kevin (McGrath) says, "I think there is much more danger that a ban on public prayer is likely to generate fundamantalism than the reverse. If people laugh at you for praying in public and you go ahead and pray in public anyway, that's very brave – but you could be well on the way towards becoming vulnerable to fanaticism. Whatever your religion." Boy, ain't that the truth. But that fanaticism would be generated by the church of that person's faith, not by a school that refrained from choosing one faith's god to pray to over another faith's god.

Kevin also says: "Profane? I can't see profanity in that thread title. 'To treat sacred objects with irreverence, violence or disrespect.' I suppose you could say that sexual activity is in some sense a sacred object, and that in some way the thread title is treating it with disprespect. At a pinch." My take on it is that some people consider prayer to be sacred, and more people consider the deity to whom (or which) they pray to be sacred. To make the spurious statement that prayer has "fuck-all" to do with music is not only profane, but in many cases untrue! Many people who pray, pray in song!!! (In fact, some schools get around the prayer issue by having their choirs sing some classical-music piece that is actually a prayer.)

John P (re your post of 26-Mar-02, 10:09 PM): Right on!! No one's outlawing or banning individual prayer.

ljc: Y'mean this whole teenager-poem thing was e-mail spam???? So we don't really know who wrote that poem, or how old (s)he really is. Sorry, but that poem's credibility has just plummeted to zero in my mind.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: SharonA
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 09:41 AM

Oops; there was supposed to be an end-italics HTML after Kevin's quote (after the words "At a pinch") in the 2nd paragraph of my last post.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: little john cameron
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 10:09 AM

Right Sharon,ah got it fae a wumman wha sends me photies o weemen wi' humungous t**s covortin wi' men wi' unbelievable c**ks!! Bit o' a contradiction there eh?
lj(new image) Cameron

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Jeri
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 10:15 AM

LJC, you're in a flyty mood these days!

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Kim C
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 10:18 AM

I own a gun. It's never killed anything except a few paper targets, and that was only because I was putting blackpowder and balls into it.

Behind every weapon of destruction is a human being wielding it, who has made a conscious choice to do so. Weapons are only a symptom, not a cause; if we want to stop people from killing each other, we have to get at the cause. If you want the dog to stop biting, you don't cut off its tail.

Now. When I was in public school, in the 80s, religion was never an issue until a bunch of government people got together and said we needed to make it an issue. I don't recall race ever being an issue at my school either. Perhaps I have forgotten many things over the passage of time; but I do remember that I had black friends, Asian friends, Jewish friends, and Catholic friends. (At that time the Middle Eastern population in Nashville was very, very small; it has grown quite a bit since, as well as the Hispanic population.) In our little microcosm of the world, you either liked someone or you didn't, and where they came from or where they worshipped didn't figure into it.

I don't really understand where that changed, or even why. People are people. Why do we insist on dividing ourselves along racial & religious lines?

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: John P
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 12:57 PM

Guest, you wrote: JP:
"JP - . . . Your form of government was based on Indian beliefs, which include a supreme deity are they not?"

Huh? What are you talking about? I don't think I have described my "form of government", whatever that means, or my beliefs, which don't have anything to do with India or a supreme deity. This reads like a complete non-sequiter. Can you explain your point more fully?

And then you wrote: "Guns dont kill people, people kill people (with whatever implents and devices they can) If you attach moral culpability to an inamiate object, you are being irrational as well as arrogant and unpleasant in your arguments. "

I have never ascribed motive or culpability to an inanimate object. In fact, the only people I've ever heard say something like that are pro-gun folks trying to make the anti-gun folks look stupid. What I have said is that the easy availabiltiy of guns makes it a lot easier for people to kill each other. Give me an assailant with a kitchen knife instead of a gun any day. I'll bet I can outrun someone with a knife. I know I can't outrun a bullet. I'm sorry if I have come across as arrogant or unpleasant. That has not been my intention. Can you point to specifics for me?

McGrath of Harlow: Did you really not understand what I was saying when I said there was profanity in the thread title? Why do you retreat to an argument based on a pedantic, leagalistic defining of words, rather than trying to communicate in any real way? If you don't have anything to add to the discussion, perhaps you should stay silent. And, if you want get all dictionary about it, you should read all the definitions listed under "profanity". In my dictionary it says, "(2)Abusive, vulgar, or irreverent language. (2a)The use of such language." You might also note that ljc's use of the word "fuck" has nothing to do with sexual intercourse. Maybe you were just trying to be cute, which I don't have a problem with. If so, you didn't make it obvious enough. If you were seriously trying to shoot down my statement, you failed.

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 01:00 PM

Hey Catspaw, how come it took you so long to find a good laugh here?

Rick

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 01:17 PM

"I must have mis-read the thread title"

How can you tell, given that stupid affected accent that LJC insist on posting in...

Comes off as about as dumb as the kids and their T3xT 5p3ak...

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: annamill
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 01:26 PM

I really agree that guns don't kill people, people do. Guns just make it easier for people to kill people.

Bill Kennedy, you have already written all my feelings on Religion and State.

Just my 2cents.

Lousy choice of a thread title too.

Annamill

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 02:10 PM

I appologise JP.... I dont have time to teach history to you today. I suggest you read about the Iroquois Confederacy and the Constitution of the United States.

"To be ignorant of what happened before you were born is to ever be a child. For what is a man's lifetime unless the memory of past events is woven with those of earlier times" Marcus Tullius Cicero 106-46 BC

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 02:13 PM

"But that fanaticism would be generated by the church of that person's faith, not by a school that refrained from choosing one faith's god to pray to over another faith's god." (Sharon)

I'd see it more as one of the consequences of intolerance on the part of the people who laughed at someone for saying their prayers. Intolerance generates fanaticism in all kinds of contexts. Sneer at people for being different, and just now and then that's going to push someone over the edge.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 02:29 PM

Pigs and cows both have four legs, and they get raised on farms and get eaten. But we find it useful to have separate words for them.

So on my understanding, while saying either "fuck-all" and "Jesus weeps" might fall into the category of "bad language", it'd be no more appropriate to call the first expression "profane" than to call the second "obscene".

Of course words change their meaning, and when you try to hold on to a meaning that has gone, that's pedantry. Maybe some day the word profane will have lost all it's associations with "sacred things". Maybe that's already happened, and it hasn't got to me yet.

Either way, it's not something I can imagine getting angry with someone over.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 02:34 PM

There was little sign of intolerance or fanaticism at the schools I attended. People who were of non Christian religions were excused service/assembly and had rooms they could assemble together temporarily (approx 125 out of a school of 800)or invited to attend without joining in prayers. For the most part Muslims, Jews and a few Communists sat in with their Christian friends, because after the short service there were announcments and other activities that included them. Respect for all was the norm, and racism was simply not tolerated by the staff. Now it seems that a vocal minority are offended by any display of worship. Strange isnt it?

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 02:54 PM

amazing how much talk a bit of religious right spam can generate

McGrath of Harlow et. al. let's say I just delete that aside about Jimmy's lips moving. It was a cheap shot, and I took it (but it may be true anyway). That is not the gist of my argument or at all my concern.

So many 'urban legend' type stories begin with 'little Jimmy couldn't say his blessing in the cafeteria'. (That's how Rush gets the folks riled up, that's how the Anita Hill thing got twisted by someone who now admits it was all lies.) I'm not from Missouri, but I say 'Show Me' anyway. Let's deal with hard cases, of factual insensitivity, but not made-up 'what ifs?' that generate emotional responses. That's all.

I'm against intolerance in ALL its manifestations, though I wouldn't call kids making fun of someone talking to himself 'intolerance', I'd call it 'kids making fun of someone talking to himself', & no big deal.

As to moral degeneration, everyone should read a little more history, this has never been a 'moral' nation. Statistically, per capita crime is no more rampant or sordid or horrible or unspeakable than it ever was. Old newspapers are full of much the same stuff we see today. There has been no 'backsliding' or turning away from religion. That is a smokescreen, also thought up by the right, to make people who naturally remember 'better days gone by' and naturally for the most part forget the rotten stuff that was going on back then (lynching, etc.), believe that it was a golden age when everyone was in church and right with god, and christians ruled and governed wisely.

It never happened like that.

Today is not that different, EXCEPT,

- and this cannot be controverted by facts, no matter how loudy you feel the need to claim the 2nd amendment -

there are way too many guns, available to way too many people, for no good reason, (except that people who sell guns make money, & people who are afraid stay indoors and watch more tv advertising,) and very often, innocent people get killed by gunfire.

this could spawn many other threads about parenting, rights and responsibilities, violence, mentoring, etc. and it would all be worthwhile, I think, to air our views in a largely positive, public forum like this. You religious people out there, enjoy your right to pray to whatever god you like, the rest of you out there, stand up for your right not to have someone else's beliefs shoved in your face. and everyone work for peace, there are some scary times ahead, i'm afraid.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: SharonA
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 02:55 PM

There was more than a little sign of fanaticism at the schools I attended! I remember that, when I was in junior high school (grades 7-9) from Fall 1968 to Spring 1971, there was a Christian bible-study movement championed by the school-band director that started out as an evening meeting once a week and evolved/devolved into sessions in the band director's office – during school hours – wherein some students performed the "laying on of hands" upon others and were "speaking in tongues". It scared me, but not half as much as it scared my Baptist-style fundamentalist parents!

As far as I know, the guy was never criticized by the school or the school board for his actions. About a year after I left for high school, the junior-high band director left the school to become a Pentecostal minister. But who knows how many kids were drawn into Pentecostalism by his "ministry" and how many were driven away from religion altogether.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: SharonA
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 02:58 PM

...Sometime I'll tell y'all about my high school, and the "New Age" baccalaureate service held my senior year!

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: little john cameron
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 03:14 PM

fuck-all \'fuk-all\ n - Absence, nothingness, devoid of substance; "It was snowin' so hard ya couldn't see fuck-all." The term "dick-all" is a common, somewhat less pejorative substitute Here is anither ane for Mister Clinton(wan gig)Hammond!!
Fuck-off an gae ower tae Mingalay an' hae ah blether wi' the teuchters.See how lang they pit up wi' yer constant carpin. ljc.

Rick,nae sign o' oor photie yet!! john

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 03:34 PM

BIOHOP'S ISLANDS, a chain of small islands among the Hebrides, the chief of which are Bernera, Mingalay, and Pabbay. Long. 7. 35. W. Lat. 56. 48. N.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: little john cameron
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 03:42 PM

Jings ,ta muckle Guest.Ah wid never hae guessed that.ljc

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 03:46 PM

BLAUSTEIN, Richard (East Tennessee State University) STALKING THE ELUSIVE TEUCHTER JOKE: EXPLORING SCOTTISH INTER-REGIONAL HUMOR. Are teuchters Scotland's hillbillies? Though Scottish inter-regional humor concerning highlanders and Gaelic speakers does exist, teuchters are overshadowed by the residents of Aberdeen, typified as exceedingly canny and thrifty, also overly intimate with sheep. Just as other people tell demeaning jokes about Scottish misers and "sheepshaggers," Scots tell these very same jokes about Aberdonians. The principal numskulls in Scottish humor are not teuchters but the Irish. It is noteworthy that the Irish tell these same jokes about Kerrymen, just as American jokes about hillbillies become West Virginia jokes in Southern Appalachia.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 03:50 PM

So Clinton, it would appear that ljc has clearly and blatantly displayed his credentials of authenticity, in a manner of lifting his kilt for you, cyber-wise.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: little john cameron
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 03:50 PM

Jist make sure ye dinnae tell that tae an Aiberdonian. ljc

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 03:59 PM

He lifted his kilt? That'd be why I didn't see anything...

Nothing there to see...

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Kim C
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 04:11 PM

I never said Jimmy was prevented from praying in the cafeteria. I said some people misinterpret the law to mean that he should be. There are plenty of people out there who think there is a zero-tolerance policy on any sort of religious expression in a public school, or any public place, for that matter. If you don't believe me, read the news.

Here's what happened to Misty Newberry when she and some friends were caught praying before school

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 04:27 PM

"Only in America" - or as I sometimes find myslef saying when watching the box "You know, Americans really are different". (Nothing wrong with being different, but the more or less common language sometimes disguises the differences. A bit like a fall of snow that makes all the different surfaces look the same for a bit. Remember that and you are less likely to lose your footing and come a cropper.)

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: little john cameron
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 04:28 PM

Ach guest he disnae get it!!! ljc

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 04:39 PM

The American Center for Law & Justice is hardly an unbiased source, I don't believe much of it, BUT, say there is a longstanding prohibition by the Capitol police against public demonstrations within the Capitol building, and they interpret that to mean no praying,

SO WHAT?,

as related, they were not prohibited from praying, just from making a public display that might be offensive to some and disruptive of government business. I don't necessarily agree with the policy, but how much work do you think would get done in Congress if every group that wanted to demonstrate were allowed to do so in the Capitol? Anti-abortionist praying, anti-Gay & Lesbian praying, even as noted anti-Masonic praying! It would never end. How has this minister been harmed except in not being allowed to fulfill his desire to make a spectacle of his faith?

If, in fact, this other Misty girl was indeed maced, handcuffed, etc., then justice prevailed by her being exonerated and compensated. I'd say the school administration erred in that instance, given these facts, but what was the context? was this right after Columbine shootings? or some other 'high alert' period? Was there some other history between this girl and her school? if not, the grandmother just happened to videotape the proceedings? or did she know that this was provocative and bound to cause a ruckus? again, anecdotes are anecdotes, & often colored a particular way, not always reliable. I don't believe everything printed in the Congressional Record, either, from a government that says it lies to its citizens, or maybe they were lying when they said that!

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Kim C
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 04:51 PM

Sir, you asked for evidence, anecdotal or otherwise. Do with it what you will. I have nothing else to add.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 04:56 PM

Thanks McGrath. So what's Bill Sables then?

Re: the subject of religion in the schools... I was harassed on a regular basis in grade school by the children who belonged to the majority religion for not belonging to their religion. I was told repeatedly that I was going to go to hell. It certainly does happen.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 04:57 PM

Madam, Do you think a group that is testifying in support of a constitutional amendment for 'Freedom of Religious Expression' is to be taken without question?

Yes, I thank you for your 3rd hand anecdotes, but not without some discussion of them. Now how about hearing from someone who has themself been discriminated against for praying in public?

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: DonD
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 05:06 PM

I just devoured the whole thread in on huge gulp, and like a shmorgasbord, it had some nice delicacies and some items to make you puke. What amazed me in the long discussion of prayer in schools on the one hand, and of guns on the other, is that I'm the first one to relate both to the Taliban. I'm sure you all know that 'Taliban' means students, and that the government of Afghanistan rose from the religious schools in Pakistan, where no one learned anything except how to pray, and perhaps how to shootan AK-47! As an atheistic anti-gun partisan myself, I can sometimes understand some NRA points and their gun safety programs -- BUT how in the world can anyone justify their indicrimainate defense of the right to bear arms that include assault rifles, anti-tank rockets, and probably intercontinental ballisric missiles. How big a paper target do you need for those 'sporting' weapons?

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 05:11 PM

I am usually pretty tolerant, even of oxymorons, but I can't stand bigots, which, it goes without saying, no Mudcatters are. My understanding (although I come from south of Watford and don't count) is that:-

The bit of Yorkshire that sounds a bit Geordie is Teesside, where the Wilson family and Vin Garbutt come from. It's the part of the world where railways were born and Stephenson ran the Rocket from Stockton to Darlington. It's now promoting itself as Tees Valley, which includes Darlington, which used to be in County Durham (where Jez Lowe comes from), the Land of the Prince Bishops.

Geordies come from North of the Tyne (at least Anni Fentiman who comes from Gateshead, south of the Tyne, says she's not a true Geordie. Neither Tyneside nor Wearside (Sunderland) is in Yorkshire.

The UK of course has an established Church (but only because Henry VIII wanted to divorce Catherine of Aragon, and had to become the Defender of the Faith and break from Rome to do so)and there are interesting debates going on as to whether discrimination on the grounds of religion should be prohibited as well as gender and race. There's also a fairly big row going on at the moment because a highly rated faith-based school in the North East (Emmanuel - I think it might even be in Gateshead) has been teaching Creationism, and our eminent scientists have been going spare and saying this should only be part of the bible teaching not the science course. A friend of mine, who teaches psychology, and is a churchgoer, moved to Canada (Monckton) and found that she was being denounced from the pulpit for being an evolutionist.

There's also an argument going on about whether our Government should fund Muslim schools which educate girls differently and to a lower academic standard than State schools.

But nobody ever argues that children in English schools should be taught English folk music. Or morris dancing.

Kitty

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 05:22 PM

I think that might be the death-knell, Kitty. What we need is an attempt to ban it, to give the music and the dancing more street-cred.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 05:26 PM

Amendment 2

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Does the amendment imply that the right to bear arms is directly related to participation in "militias"? Are "militias" still in existence in America, or have they been modified into formal branches of the Military, such as the National Guard? How would you define "arms" ? Muskets and smoothbore cannon? or M16s, armor-piercing shells, hand grenades, and rocket launchers? Its pretty certain that the Founding Fathers couldn't have envisioned laying groundwork for the right of each citizen to possess a rocket launcher, but doesn't it come under the general heading of "arms"? Would you prohibit rocket launchers and hand grenades, but allow handguns and semi-automatic rifles?

Those who stand by the literal interpretation of the amendment prefer to ignore questions like these, and see every gun law as a violation of the "infringement" clause. Its a wonderful, clear statement of their position, and establishes an entrenched, beseiged mindset that polarizes the argument, rejecting rational compromises.

And someone who sees no difference in the lethal potential between a machine-pistol and a sharp stick in the hands of someone with intent to kill, has built an amazingly impenetrable wall between their mouth and their common sense. I don't deny that our society has problems with the breakdown of morality and the glorification of violence, but until the proliferation and ready availability of powerful firearms is controlled in some rational way, a great portion of the problem remains unsolved.

Item : the individuals who purchased the weapons and then handed them over to the under-aged Harris and Klebold were recently found innocent of any wrongdoing. Two final questions come to mind. 1) Is this an example of the efficiency of our existing gun laws? and 2) What are the bets that the two individuals involved had legal defense funded by the NRA?

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 06:15 PM

Oh, alright McGrath - it was pointed out in the Radio 3 Music Matters discussion on Sunday, with Billy Bragg, Martin Carthy and Alan Howkins, that the presentation of English folk song in the school curriculum hadn't enhanced its street cred or any other sort of cred.

Gun control in the UK has generally been tighter than in many other countries and got tightened after the Thomas Hamilton Dunblane massacre. Gun-related crime in England seems mostly to be linked with the illegal drugs scene. The worst incident I can think of so far this year is the girl who was shot for her mobile phone. The other nasty recent development is people being attacked by car thieves on steal-to-order jobs.

Kitty

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 06:42 PM

I had to skim here...this thread is cumbersome indeed, so I apologize if this is redundant.

The law *should* protect a childs right to *choose* to pray here in the US. But the sad fact is that more and more people are getting the "Separation of Church and State" thing confused. It was intended to keep the state out of religion, not the other way around.

In any case, the law should protect a child's right to pray. However, there has been case after case where Valedictorians wanted to mention their faith, or pray during their commencement speach and were told they could not. Case after case of a child choosing Jesus as his "hero" for an essay, and being told he or she could not. Many of these have gone to trial *after* said event could occur, effectively blocking the child from exercising his or her (supposedly) constitutional rights.

There should not be a state mandated religion...but to banish all religion from schools is not only wrong, it's against the very reason this country was founded. Freedom of religion. The founders of this country never intoned "except in school".

Here's a link for more information: http://www2.oneplace.com/Ministries/Jay_Sekulow_Live/

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 07:27 PM

Jefferson elucidated the underlying motivations behind the separation of Church and State in Article 1 of the Virginia Freedom of Religion Act.

SECTION I. Well aware that the opinions and belief of men depend not on their own will, but follow involuntarily the evidence proposed to their minds; that Almighty God hath created the mind free, and manifested his supreme will that free it shall remain by making it altogether insusceptible of restraint; that all attempts to influence it by temporal punishments, or burthens, or by civil incapacitations, tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness, and are a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, who being lord both of body and mind, yet chose not to propagate it by coercions on either, as was in his Almighty power to do, but to exalt it by its influence on reason alone; that the impious presumption of legislators and rulers, civil as well as ecclesiastical, who, being themselves but fallible and uninspired men, have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavoring to impose them on others, hath established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the world and through all time: That to compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical; that even the forcing him to support this or that teacher of his own religious persuasion, is depriving him of the comfortable liberty of giving his contributions to the particular pastor whose morals he would make his pattern, and whose powers he feels most persuasive to righteousness; and is withdrawing from the ministry those temporary rewards, which proceeding from an approbation of their personal conduct, are an additional incitement to earnest and unremitting labours for the instruction of mankind; that our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics or geometry; that therefore the proscribing any citizen as unworthy the public confidence by laying upon him an incapacity of being called to offices of trust and emolument, unless he profess or renounce this or that religious opinion, is depriving him injuriously of those privileges and advantages to which, in common with his fellow citizens, he has a natural right; that it tends also to corrupt the principles of that very religion it is meant to encourage, by bribing, with a monopoly of worldly honours and emoluments, those who will externally profess and conform to it; that though indeed these are criminals who do not withstand such temptation, yet neither are those innocent who lay the bait in their way; that the opinions of men are not the object of civil government, nor under its jurisdiction; that to suffer the civil magistrate to intrude his powers into the field of opinion and to restrain the profession or propagation of principles on supposition of their ill tendency is a dangerous fallacy, which at once destroys all religious liberty, because he being of course judge of that tendency will make his opinions the rule of judgment, and approve or condemn the sentiments of others only as they shall square with or differ from his own; that it is time enough for the rightful purposes of civil government for its officers to interfere when principles break out into overt acts against peace and good order; and finally, that truth is great and will prevail if left to herself; that she is the proper and sufficient antagonist to error, and has nothing to fear from the conflict unless by human interposition disarmed of her natural weapons, free argument and debate; errors ceasing to be dangerous when it is permitted freely to contradict them.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 07:52 PM

Herga Kitty, I think your post might be helpful for me to understand better if I had a good world atlas, which I don't at this time (to my great frustration). My confusion stems from the impression I've gotten from Bill Sables here in the Mudcat forum, that he considers himself a Geordie, and the fact that he's listed in the Mudcat locater as living in Yorkshire.

Does anyone have a link to a good on-line map of the areas in question that I can look at to see how all of the above geographic references fit together? I'd be grateful for such a thing.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Amos
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 08:42 PM

Jesus, LEJ, old Tom sure had a way with phrase; I've never seen so many incisive observations strung so close together coming out of one pen!

I was told the story when I was young that JFK hosted a dinner at the White House for a whole slew of brilliant men of his time. And he stood up and looked this distinguished audience over and said, "Gentlemen, there hasn't been such a collection of brains at this table since Thomas Jefferson dined here alone."

Thanks so much for the post. It is worth putting up on Burma Shave signs all over the country!!!

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 10:16 PM

Very True Amos... 3. Moral Principles

Morality is intimately related to a nation's government, for as James Madison wrote, "To suppose that any form of government will secure liberty or happiness without any virtue in the people is a chimerical idea." Morality refers to conduct that is proper between members of society. Respect for the equal rights of every citizen becomes the foundation of morality and justice in a free society. Rightful government necessarily reflects this proper relationship in its policies and in its dealings with its own citizens and with other nations.

"God... has formed us moral agents... that we may promote the happiness of those with whom He has placed us in society, by acting honestly towards all, benevolently to those who fall within our way, respecting sacredly their rights, bodily and mental, and cherishing especially their freedom of conscience, as we value our own." --Thomas Jefferson to Miles King, 1814. ME 14:197

"Peace, prosperity, liberty and morals have an intimate connection." --Thomas Jefferson to George Logan, 1813. ME 13:384

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: mack/misophist
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 10:45 PM

Can you all remember this? Back in the days of mandatory school prayer, I was in high school in a town dominated by the Southern Baptists. We students were delighted at the prospect of getting rid of the prayers; not because we were anti-religion (nesessarily) but because we hated having adults cram things down our throats. The prayers didn't make us better people; no one listened. The few teen agers who objected were mostly pollyannas and sycophants, not well regarded. When ethics are taught in school, they are always someone elses ethics. If you want your kids to know right from wrong, teach them yourselves.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 10:53 PM

Carol C-You are right, Bill Sables is a Geordie, he was born and raised in County Durham, but moved to Yorkshire in the 1970's. It's about were you come from, not were you are! (if I moved away from here, I would still be a Yorkshireman)
John from Hull (in Yorkshire)

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 11:04 PM

Thanks John from Hull! There's that mystery solved.

I like what you said about it being about where you come from and not where you are. By that standard, I'm a Rhode Islander. That's where I was born, and where I lived until I was 9 1/2. And I still miss it there. So what you said makes me feel a little better.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: The Pooka
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 11:15 PM

CarolC, dunno if this helps at all but fer starters (blind leading the blind, here?), here's a site & map from the Northumblerland County Council. Will seek more.

Click here

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: little john cameron
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 11:23 PM

John,ah hae a cousin in Garboldisham,is that near you?She lives oan a street caed "The Street" ljc

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: little john cameron
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 11:27 PM

OOPS!! Belay that,ah jist minded she lives in Norfolk no'Yorkshire. ljc

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 11:31 PM

Thanks for the link The Pooka!

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 11:45 PM

Hi John, do you know where the Humber Bridge is? thats near Hull. Funny Story-well alright maybe mildly amusing!-A few years ago I was a student and we had some Excange students from America, well I got to know some of them and I took them for a drive around Hull to show them a few touristy things, as we were driving down the A63, I casually pointed to the Humber Bridge (the biggest bridge in the world at over 1 mile btween towers) and said "that's the biggest bridge in Hull over there" you should have seen there faces! one said something like " Gee, you must have some really big bridges over here" .john

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Mar 02 - 12:35 AM

John, if the Humber Bridge was built before 1998, I don't think it's the biggest bridge in the world any more. At least not according to several sites I looked in. Check this out...

Akashi Bridge

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 28 Mar 02 - 12:51 AM

Having dwelt in the canny toon of Hexham on Tyne for a number of yeors, I am willing to bet that almost 100% of the denizens of the banks of Tyne , both North and south, from Bardon Mill and Bellingham to Canny New castle consider themselves to be Geordies. And one of the most asinine statements I have ever heard is "guns don't kill people, people kill people'. Stupid, or evil, or crazy people WITH GUNS[ and the "right to bear arms"]kill people. Had Hamilton been armed with an axe in Dunblane, he'd probably have managed to murder SOME kids, but nowhere near the number he finally did. I can remember some galoot in Oz [or was it New Zealand?] who did for over thirty people before he was stopped; a crazy with a gun. Some idiot [Charlton Heston?] suggested that if the head teacher in Dunblane had been entitled to have a gun in his office, the slaughter could easily have been prevented. No--such an entitlement would merely have ensured that a Dunblane would already have happened--as it has in the land of "right to bear arms," again, and again , and again and again------

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 02 - 08:33 AM

And since personal firearms are now banned in the UK violent gun related crime has increased 28%. Acts of violence are up 30% and what next oh yes we will ban all knives... Get real...

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 02 - 08:40 PM

One of the most tiresome shibboleths floating around is the notion of "a constitutional separation of church and state." Anyone can read the Constitution, but in this age of television I suppose very few people read anything. If one reads the Constitution he will discover that "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or interfering with the free exercise thereof." That states very clearly that the federal government cannot pass a bill saying that the Catholic church, for example, is the established religion of the United States.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 01:03 AM

Gosh...

I agree with everyone here...partly. Depends on what angle you're looking at it from.

I don't care much for fanatical religious systems that FORCE a particular religion down people's throats, and I don't care much for atheistic systems that deny people's right to religious expression...or ridicule it...either.

I agree that most of our highest ideals (if not all of them) may be found in the great religious texts of the world, and that conversely some or our most benighted and ignorant practices have come directly from institutionalized religion.

I believe in body, mind, and spirit, and I believe that all questions are, in the final sense, religious questions, but I have no objection to people who think they are atheists. My opinion is that they are not atheists, whatever they think about it. Everyone is religious.

Let me explain that. A person's religious beliefs, in my view, are his deepest and most abiding beliefs about what he thinks existence and reality are based upon...and where she fits into that existence and reality. (exchange genders in this text as you please...the point is the same in either case)

A person's religion rests where his faith is the strongest. Find out what she truly has faith in, what he truly thinks is real and meaningful, and you have found his religion. This includes atheists and rationalists of every kind, without exception. The only person it doesn't include is one who believes in absolutely nothing at all, and there is no such person to be found out there, unless he's in a coma.

Therefore, I say that religion is ALWAYS both the problem and the salvation of society. The question is...is it a healthy or an unhealthy form and use of religion? Or is it a mixture of the two? Most commonly it is the latter.

Example: Many people place their greatest faith in money and material goods. They believe that their salvation lies in accumulating those two things. Therefore I say that money and property ARE their god and their primary religion. Doesn't matter if they claim to be Catholic or Hindu and go through the motions...if their real faith is in money and property then THAT is their religion...not their superficial church habits. (It goes without saying that most people are not consciously aware of what their actual religion is!)

'nother example: A lot of people are religious about sex, romance, and/or marriage. It is the aspect of life in which they place the strongest belief, and on which their greatest hopes and dreams and their strongest faith rest. Therefore I say that their primary religion is sex, romance, and/or marriage.

'nother: Some people are religious about patriotism. They do crazy things in its name. The Japanese in World War II were a spectacular example of that. To them, the Emperor was a living god, and Japan was holy ground to be defended to the last drop of blood, and a kamikaze mission or a ritual suicide was their spiritual salvation and redemption in the face of the ignominy of defeat. That is the religion of extreme nationalism and the religion of the warrior creed.

'nother: Some people are religious about business and commerce. It's all they really care about or believe in or make sacrifices for. These people are workaholics and they are driven by either habit or ambition or both. Work is their religion. Promotion is their salvation. The office is their holy sepulchre. My own father is such a person, and he has sacrificed his whole life to it.

Some other common fragmentary religions: the worship of fame, the worship of youth, the worship of beauty, the worship of intellect, the worship of success, the worship of notoriety (sought by some deliquents and criminals), the worship of haute couture, the desire to be "cool", social conformity and peer pressure of every kind, the worship of political parties, the obsession with "race", the obsession with gender, any belief system that separates you from most of life and sets you apart in some "special" group of people who are supposedly superior to other people outside that group.

And one more fragmentary religion: Atheists and vigorously independent rationalists are religious about their absolute autonomy, their powers of reason, their own mind, their independence, their specific identity, and its survival. This is the rock upon which they build their personal Jerusalem. To them, "god" is their own mind and body, its powers, and its absolute autonomy and separation from other minds, bodies, and the world around it. That too is a form of religion, albeit a tremendously constricted one in a spiritual sense. Its great strength, however, is that it can foster much courage and self-reliance, which are among life's most valuable assets.

Now, most of those are pretty fragmentary religions, because they are only about pieces of life. They do not integrate the whole. And most people worship not just one of these religions but a combination of several or many of them. The question is, which are the dominant ones in any person's makeup? From those dominant religious beliefs will follow most of his actions.

Likewise, most conventional church religions are pretty fragmentary, because they cling to one narrow tradition, and one narrow set of behaviours while ignoring or denying all the rest. This is not an intelligent thing to do.

This is small thinking.

Religion should include all of life. It should include every great religious teaching in history, every great philosophical teaching, work, romance, friendship, marriage, political life, law, entertainment, science, education, art, sexuality, poetry, playfullness, raising children...EVERYTHING.

If it doesn't include everything then it's just a fragment of life. True religion is all of life, not a fragment. Find me a person who has faith and belief in ALL of life, and PRACTICES IT, and you have found an extraordinary person, an avatar, a person who can change the world. That's true and living religion.

True religion is NOT some tiny little narrow-minded sect of people who worship one book, follow one prophet, and deny all the rest. Nor is it a person who cares for only money or his career or his tiny little personal survival (doomed to eventual demise) and denies the rest.

So, my conclusion is: All beliefs are forms of religion. All healthy beliefs are good for society and will reduce violence. All unhealthy beliefs are bad for society and will in all likelihood increase violence. All healthy beliefs unite us. All unhealthy beliefs divide us. Whether people go to church or not does not concern me. Whether they say prayers or not is their own business. Live and let live.

- LH

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 01:27 AM

Amen Little Hawk (i'm guest from another thread same subject)

From The Iroquois Confederacy the US constitution was modeled on

Religious Ceremonies Protected 99. The rites and festivals of each nation shall remain undisturbed and shall continue as before because they were given by the people of old times as useful and necessary for the good of men.

100. It shall be the duty of the Lords of each brotherhood to confer at the approach of the time of the Midwinter Thanksgiving and to notify their people of the approaching festival. They shall hold a council over the matter and arrange its details and begin the Thanksgiving five days after the moon of Dis-ko-nah is new. The people shall assemble at the appointed place and the nephews shall notify the people of the time and place. From the beginning to the end the Lords shall preside over the Thanksgiving and address the people from time to time.

101. It shall be the duty of the appointed managers of the Thanksgiving festivals to do all that is needed for carrying out the duties of the occasions.

The recognized festivals of Thanksgiving shall be the Midwinter Thanksgiving, the Maple or Sugar-making Thanksgiving, the Raspberry Thanksgiving, the Strawberry Thanksgiving, the Cornplanting Thanksgiving, the Corn Hoeing Thanksgiving, the Little Festival of Green Corn, the Great Festival of Ripe Corn and the complete Thanksgiving for the Harvest.

Each nation's festivals shall be held in their Long Houses.

102. When the Thansgiving for the Green Corn comes the special managers, both the men and women, shall give it careful attention and do their duties properly.

103. When the Ripe Corn Thanksgiving is celebrated the Lords of the Nation must give it the same attention as they give to the Midwinter Thanksgiving.

104. Whenever any man proves himself by his good life and his knowledge of good things, naturally fitted as a teacher of good things, he shall be recognized by the Lords as a teacher of peace and religion and the people shall hear him.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 01:42 AM

Thanks, GUEST!

From your post...

"104. Whenever any man proves himself by his good life and his knowledge of good things, naturally fitted as a teacher of good things, he shall be recognized by the Lords as a teacher of peace and religion and the people shall hear him."

Bravo. That is simplicity, common sense, and Truth. From such teachings arise a strong and healthy society, and a proud and capable nation. Nowadays, it would be "any good man or woman", but I imagine that is what they may have meant in any case, as the clan mothers had a great deal of respect and influence in tribal life, from all I have heard...and still do.

- LH

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 03:39 AM

For our anonymous guest who reckons we should "get real"; I have lived a long, long time, sir, and sixty years were spent in the wilds of South West Scotland. Battles every Saturday night, guaranteed, and many a midweek stushie forbye.In all of the years in the district in which I grew up and lived, I have no knowledge of any malicious wounding or killing with a fire-arm. Aye---there were among us enough of the glaikit mentality which, had they possessed a gun, would have betrayed the fact that Scots are just as prone as any race to the evil effects of the power-trip that possession of a gun almost invariably gives. That there were no such homicides, in other words, was due to the fact that the only guns in circulation were either shotguns for sporting or killing of vermin, or junior's slug-pellet airgun. There were deaths, yes---all, in my experience, down to suicide or accident. There are few among us who, at some time in their lives, if a gun had been in their hands, would have used it. The healthiest society is the one which keeps guns under strict control. So, Mr. Guest, come down from your NRA cloud and YOU "get real" [a stupid expression, but forgive me for bouncing it back----]

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 05:21 AM

I too spent time there (same time frame)and there were many people with illegal guns in Scotland; just as there are millions of guns in North America that are not used to murder anyone. The will to use one to commit murder is the whole point here. I'm not in a cloud and "get real" still applies. Knives, axes (remember the ones made from roof slate and sawn off broom handles?)golf clubs, bows and arrows, bike chains etc, etc, etc...

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST,eliza
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 11:09 PM

Hi... Geordies are very specifically from Newcastle upon Tyne. When I pray, I pray to myself. I have green hair and a pierced face, and the first time I ever saw a real gun I thought I was going to die of fear. Horrible horrible horrible invention,good for nothing but pain and death. x peace chaps!

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 12:29 AM

eliza - All the spiritual traditions I know of assert that God is found "within", so if you pray to yourself, you may be on the right track...

- LH

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST,eliza
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 11:38 AM

I hope so. Spirituality in my opinion can't be about being seen to be in a gang and publicly receiving approval. It should be kept to yourself, done quietly for you and your God, or your community in prayer. City communities are too diverse now for everyone to be made to perform the same rites in schools. I think it is a good idea to teach the histories of religions however; and the rest can be done at home.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 01:45 PM

Sounds good to me, eliza...

As for guns, they are a very useful item if one lives in wilderness conditions and has to hunt for one's food or ward off the odd lion or polar bear attack. Most country people used to have guns, mostly for those puposes, and you will certainly find no trapper in the far north of Canada without a rifle, I wouldn't think. But I agree that in modern cities guns are strictly a device for killing other people, and we'd be way better off if there were no guns at all in those places. Human nature being what it is, that's not likely to happen soon.

- LH

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 09:40 PM

lots of two legged predators who should be shot too Little Hawk. For now i prefer to have choice, not legislated unfairness towards the predators (who dont obey laws)

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 05:31 PM

FWIW the BBC have just shown the latest instalment of Billy Connolly's World Tour of England, Ireland and Wales, in which he visited Hadrian's Wall, Newcastle and Ashington (plus the Angel of the North). The derivation of "Geordie" given in the programme was that miners in Newcastle continued to use the lamps invented by George Stephenson after miners elsewhere had switched to Davy lamps.

Kitty

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 05:43 PM

That's an interesting explanation.

The thing is, whatever the rightful meaning and origin of the term, in the absence of another name, "Geordie" and "Geordieland" has tended to be used to cover the whole North East. So is there another better term that we could use instead to refer to the people and the distinctive language they speak, and the musical traditions they share?