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BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916

Related threads:
Songs of the 1916 Easter Rising (56)
BS: The Irish Easter Rising (11)


GUEST,Desi C 24 Mar 15 - 05:06 AM
mayomick 24 Mar 15 - 06:21 AM
Murpholly 24 Mar 15 - 07:09 AM
JenBurdoo 25 Mar 15 - 02:09 AM
Thompson 25 Mar 15 - 03:27 AM
Thompson 25 Mar 15 - 03:28 AM
Thompson 25 Mar 15 - 05:09 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Mar 15 - 05:16 AM
Thompson 25 Mar 15 - 05:21 AM
Big Al Whittle 25 Mar 15 - 05:54 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Mar 15 - 06:06 AM
Thompson 25 Mar 15 - 08:27 AM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 25 Mar 15 - 11:02 AM
Thompson 25 Mar 15 - 11:57 AM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 25 Mar 15 - 12:22 PM
The Sandman 25 Mar 15 - 12:32 PM
Thompson 25 Mar 15 - 12:37 PM
Thompson 25 Mar 15 - 01:03 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Apr 16 - 04:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Apr 16 - 04:15 AM
Thompson 03 Apr 16 - 09:47 AM
Harry Rivers 11 Apr 16 - 02:29 AM
LadyJean 11 Apr 16 - 08:01 PM
GUEST,Desi C 14 Apr 16 - 06:47 AM
Joe Offer 14 Apr 16 - 07:20 AM
GUEST 15 Apr 16 - 11:25 AM
GUEST 15 Apr 16 - 11:27 AM
GUEST,Pat 'de Verse' Burke 15 Apr 16 - 03:39 PM
AmyLove 15 Apr 16 - 10:28 PM
Pat deVerse 16 Apr 16 - 08:34 AM
FreddyHeadey 16 Apr 16 - 10:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Apr 16 - 10:54 AM
Thompson 16 Apr 16 - 12:11 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Apr 16 - 12:48 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Apr 16 - 02:18 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Apr 16 - 03:40 AM
Thompson 17 Apr 16 - 04:59 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Apr 16 - 05:06 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Apr 16 - 05:46 AM
Teribus 17 Apr 16 - 06:25 AM
FreddyHeadey 17 Apr 16 - 06:30 AM
Thompson 17 Apr 16 - 06:51 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Apr 16 - 07:24 AM
Thompson 17 Apr 16 - 07:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Apr 16 - 08:15 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Apr 16 - 09:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Apr 16 - 11:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Apr 16 - 11:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Apr 16 - 11:38 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Apr 16 - 11:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Apr 16 - 02:11 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Apr 16 - 02:32 PM
Joe Offer 17 Apr 16 - 04:10 PM
Fergie 17 Apr 16 - 04:10 PM
keberoxu 17 Apr 16 - 05:00 PM
Joe Offer 17 Apr 16 - 10:29 PM
Teribus 18 Apr 16 - 02:08 AM
Teribus 18 Apr 16 - 02:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Apr 16 - 04:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Apr 16 - 04:47 AM
Raggytash 18 Apr 16 - 05:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Apr 16 - 06:45 AM
GUEST,Raggytash 18 Apr 16 - 06:58 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Apr 16 - 08:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Apr 16 - 08:25 AM
GUEST,Raggytash 18 Apr 16 - 08:43 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Apr 16 - 09:02 AM
The Sandman 18 Apr 16 - 10:33 AM
GUEST,Raggytash 18 Apr 16 - 10:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Apr 16 - 11:31 AM
The Sandman 18 Apr 16 - 12:16 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Apr 16 - 12:19 PM
Teribus 18 Apr 16 - 12:53 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Apr 16 - 01:14 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Apr 16 - 01:17 PM
Teribus 18 Apr 16 - 01:37 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Apr 16 - 02:08 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Apr 16 - 02:31 PM
keberoxu 18 Apr 16 - 02:36 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Apr 16 - 02:37 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Apr 16 - 02:41 PM
Joe Offer 18 Apr 16 - 03:18 PM
Joe Offer 18 Apr 16 - 10:21 PM
Teribus 19 Apr 16 - 01:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Apr 16 - 03:31 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Apr 16 - 04:02 AM
Raggytash 19 Apr 16 - 04:32 AM
Raggytash 19 Apr 16 - 04:34 AM
The Sandman 19 Apr 16 - 04:48 AM
Raggytash 19 Apr 16 - 05:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Apr 16 - 05:25 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Apr 16 - 05:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Apr 16 - 07:14 AM
Raggytash 19 Apr 16 - 07:25 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Apr 16 - 07:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Apr 16 - 08:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Apr 16 - 08:10 AM
Raggytash 19 Apr 16 - 08:28 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Apr 16 - 08:40 AM
Raggytash 19 Apr 16 - 08:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Apr 16 - 10:15 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Apr 16 - 10:21 AM
The Sandman 19 Apr 16 - 10:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Apr 16 - 10:50 AM
Raggytash 19 Apr 16 - 01:24 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Apr 16 - 01:27 PM
Raggytash 19 Apr 16 - 01:48 PM
Fergie 19 Apr 16 - 02:10 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Apr 16 - 02:35 PM
The Sandman 19 Apr 16 - 02:43 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Apr 16 - 02:53 PM
Fergie 19 Apr 16 - 03:29 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Apr 16 - 04:25 PM
Joe Offer 19 Apr 16 - 09:23 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Apr 16 - 02:40 AM
The Sandman 20 Apr 16 - 03:04 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Apr 16 - 03:20 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Apr 16 - 03:43 AM
MGM·Lion 20 Apr 16 - 04:09 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Apr 16 - 04:21 AM
The Sandman 20 Apr 16 - 04:25 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Apr 16 - 05:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Apr 16 - 07:30 AM
GUEST,Raggytash 20 Apr 16 - 07:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Apr 16 - 07:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Apr 16 - 09:06 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Apr 16 - 09:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Apr 16 - 09:30 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Apr 16 - 09:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Apr 16 - 09:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Apr 16 - 09:39 AM
GUEST,Raggytash 20 Apr 16 - 09:41 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Apr 16 - 10:14 AM
MartinRyan 20 Apr 16 - 10:34 AM
Joe Offer 20 Apr 16 - 10:53 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Apr 16 - 12:10 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Apr 16 - 12:16 PM
Fergie 20 Apr 16 - 12:39 PM
GUEST,Mpdette 20 Apr 16 - 01:49 PM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 20 Apr 16 - 02:08 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Apr 16 - 02:39 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Apr 16 - 03:03 PM
Joe Offer 20 Apr 16 - 03:52 PM
The Sandman 20 Apr 16 - 05:25 PM
Fergie 20 Apr 16 - 08:33 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Apr 16 - 03:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Apr 16 - 03:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Apr 16 - 03:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Apr 16 - 03:58 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Apr 16 - 04:11 AM
GUEST,Raggytash 21 Apr 16 - 04:16 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Apr 16 - 04:26 AM
Fergie 21 Apr 16 - 07:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Apr 16 - 07:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Apr 16 - 08:00 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Apr 16 - 08:48 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Apr 16 - 08:57 AM
Fergie 21 Apr 16 - 10:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Apr 16 - 10:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Apr 16 - 10:41 AM
Fergie 21 Apr 16 - 10:44 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Apr 16 - 11:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Apr 16 - 12:12 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Apr 16 - 12:35 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Apr 16 - 12:39 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Apr 16 - 12:43 PM
MGM·Lion 21 Apr 16 - 05:01 PM
GUEST,joe at airport 21 Apr 16 - 07:07 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Apr 16 - 03:17 AM
Joe Offer 22 Apr 16 - 03:50 AM
Dave the Gnome 22 Apr 16 - 03:53 AM
GUEST 22 Apr 16 - 04:01 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Apr 16 - 04:01 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Apr 16 - 04:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Apr 16 - 04:22 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Apr 16 - 04:45 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Apr 16 - 04:51 AM
GUEST,Raggytash 22 Apr 16 - 05:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Apr 16 - 05:53 AM
Dave the Gnome 22 Apr 16 - 06:04 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Apr 16 - 06:19 AM
MGM·Lion 22 Apr 16 - 06:31 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Apr 16 - 06:41 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Apr 16 - 07:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Apr 16 - 08:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Apr 16 - 09:11 AM
Greg F. 22 Apr 16 - 10:43 AM
GUEST,Derrick 22 Apr 16 - 12:14 PM
Joe Offer 22 Apr 16 - 12:25 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Apr 16 - 12:34 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Apr 16 - 12:43 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Apr 16 - 12:53 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Apr 16 - 12:55 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Apr 16 - 01:10 PM
Teribus 23 Apr 16 - 03:39 AM
Teribus 23 Apr 16 - 03:56 AM
Raggytash 23 Apr 16 - 04:01 AM
Teribus 23 Apr 16 - 04:14 AM
Raggytash 23 Apr 16 - 04:41 AM
Raggytash 23 Apr 16 - 04:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Apr 16 - 05:00 AM
Raggytash 23 Apr 16 - 05:30 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Apr 16 - 06:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Apr 16 - 06:41 AM
GUEST,HiLo 23 Apr 16 - 06:51 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Apr 16 - 06:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Apr 16 - 07:17 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Apr 16 - 07:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Apr 16 - 07:59 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Apr 16 - 08:09 AM
Raggytash 23 Apr 16 - 08:16 AM
GUEST,HiLo 23 Apr 16 - 08:51 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Apr 16 - 09:03 AM
Raggytash 23 Apr 16 - 09:07 AM
GUEST,HiLo 23 Apr 16 - 09:13 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Apr 16 - 09:46 AM
The Sandman 23 Apr 16 - 10:04 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Apr 16 - 10:16 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Apr 16 - 10:41 AM
Raggytash 23 Apr 16 - 11:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Apr 16 - 12:20 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Apr 16 - 12:29 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Apr 16 - 12:50 PM
Dave the Gnome 23 Apr 16 - 01:05 PM
Teribus 23 Apr 16 - 01:22 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Apr 16 - 01:46 PM
Teribus 23 Apr 16 - 02:07 PM
GUEST,HiLo 23 Apr 16 - 02:20 PM
Teribus 23 Apr 16 - 02:37 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Apr 16 - 03:03 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Apr 16 - 03:51 PM
Joe Offer 23 Apr 16 - 04:32 PM
Teribus 23 Apr 16 - 06:36 PM
GUEST 23 Apr 16 - 06:40 PM
GUEST,HiLo 23 Apr 16 - 06:41 PM
GUEST,HiLo 23 Apr 16 - 06:58 PM
Joe Offer 23 Apr 16 - 07:11 PM
Teribus 23 Apr 16 - 07:42 PM
GUEST 23 Apr 16 - 07:45 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Apr 16 - 07:48 PM
GUEST,HiLo 23 Apr 16 - 07:51 PM
Joe Offer 23 Apr 16 - 08:11 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Apr 16 - 08:17 PM
GUEST,HiLo 23 Apr 16 - 08:18 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Apr 16 - 08:20 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Apr 16 - 08:28 PM
GUEST,HiLo 23 Apr 16 - 08:41 PM
GUEST,HiLo 23 Apr 16 - 08:43 PM
GUEST,HiLo 23 Apr 16 - 09:02 PM
FreddyHeadey 23 Apr 16 - 09:51 PM
Joe Offer 24 Apr 16 - 01:39 AM
MGM·Lion 24 Apr 16 - 03:57 AM
MGM·Lion 24 Apr 16 - 04:02 AM
MGM·Lion 24 Apr 16 - 04:07 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Apr 16 - 04:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Apr 16 - 04:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Apr 16 - 04:27 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Apr 16 - 05:17 AM
Teribus 24 Apr 16 - 05:34 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Apr 16 - 06:09 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Apr 16 - 06:16 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Apr 16 - 06:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Apr 16 - 07:20 AM
The Sandman 24 Apr 16 - 07:25 AM
Teribus 24 Apr 16 - 07:30 AM
Teribus 24 Apr 16 - 07:42 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Apr 16 - 07:45 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Apr 16 - 08:18 AM
GUEST,HiLo 24 Apr 16 - 08:37 AM
MGM·Lion 24 Apr 16 - 08:42 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Apr 16 - 08:51 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Apr 16 - 08:52 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Apr 16 - 08:54 AM
MGM·Lion 24 Apr 16 - 09:04 AM
GUEST,HiLoI 24 Apr 16 - 09:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Apr 16 - 10:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Apr 16 - 01:09 PM
The Sandman 24 Apr 16 - 01:34 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Apr 16 - 01:50 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Apr 16 - 03:10 PM
GUEST,Dr. Modette 24 Apr 16 - 03:24 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Apr 16 - 03:34 PM
Dave the Gnome 24 Apr 16 - 04:37 PM
MGM·Lion 24 Apr 16 - 06:06 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Apr 16 - 06:36 PM
GUEST,HiLo 24 Apr 16 - 06:45 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Apr 16 - 06:57 PM
GUEST,Hilo 24 Apr 16 - 07:07 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Apr 16 - 08:00 PM
GUEST,HiLo 25 Apr 16 - 12:12 AM
GUEST,HiLo 25 Apr 16 - 12:59 AM
Joe Offer 25 Apr 16 - 01:11 AM
GUEST,HiLo 25 Apr 16 - 01:50 AM
Joe Offer 25 Apr 16 - 03:09 AM
Teribus 25 Apr 16 - 03:45 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 Apr 16 - 04:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Apr 16 - 06:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Apr 16 - 06:41 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Apr 16 - 09:55 AM
Teribus 25 Apr 16 - 09:59 AM
Raggytash 25 Apr 16 - 10:02 AM
Teribus 25 Apr 16 - 10:09 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Apr 16 - 12:12 PM
Teribus 25 Apr 16 - 01:12 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Apr 16 - 02:32 PM
Greg F. 25 Apr 16 - 05:17 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Apr 16 - 06:23 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Apr 16 - 07:17 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Apr 16 - 02:42 AM
Teribus 26 Apr 16 - 02:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Apr 16 - 02:49 AM
Raggytash 26 Apr 16 - 03:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Apr 16 - 03:20 AM
Raggytash 26 Apr 16 - 03:42 AM
Raggytash 26 Apr 16 - 03:46 AM
Dave the Gnome 26 Apr 16 - 03:54 AM
MGM·Lion 26 Apr 16 - 04:24 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Apr 16 - 04:50 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Apr 16 - 04:55 AM
Teribus 26 Apr 16 - 04:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Apr 16 - 05:11 AM
Raggytash 26 Apr 16 - 05:15 AM
Raggytash 26 Apr 16 - 05:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Apr 16 - 05:51 AM
Raggytash 26 Apr 16 - 06:00 AM
Teribus 26 Apr 16 - 06:12 AM
MGM·Lion 26 Apr 16 - 06:12 AM
MGM·Lion 26 Apr 16 - 06:24 AM
Raggytash 26 Apr 16 - 06:28 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Apr 16 - 07:10 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Apr 16 - 07:12 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Apr 16 - 07:13 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Apr 16 - 07:14 AM
MGM·Lion 26 Apr 16 - 07:24 AM
Raggytash 26 Apr 16 - 08:03 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Apr 16 - 08:15 AM
MGM·Lion 26 Apr 16 - 09:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Apr 16 - 09:48 AM
Dave the Gnome 26 Apr 16 - 10:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Apr 16 - 10:17 AM
Raggytash 26 Apr 16 - 10:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Apr 16 - 10:33 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Apr 16 - 10:36 AM
Raggytash 26 Apr 16 - 10:51 AM
Teribus 26 Apr 16 - 11:21 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Apr 16 - 11:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Apr 16 - 12:18 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Apr 16 - 12:22 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Apr 16 - 01:20 PM
Teribus 26 Apr 16 - 01:44 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Apr 16 - 01:51 PM
Teribus 26 Apr 16 - 02:18 PM
Dave the Gnome 26 Apr 16 - 02:29 PM
Raggytash 26 Apr 16 - 02:36 PM
Raggytash 26 Apr 16 - 02:44 PM
Teribus 26 Apr 16 - 02:50 PM
Raggytash 26 Apr 16 - 03:40 PM
Raggytash 26 Apr 16 - 03:57 PM
Teribus 26 Apr 16 - 07:30 PM
Teribus 26 Apr 16 - 07:41 PM
Raggytash 27 Apr 16 - 03:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Apr 16 - 04:11 AM
Raggytash 27 Apr 16 - 04:14 AM
Raggytash 27 Apr 16 - 04:22 AM
Teribus 27 Apr 16 - 05:17 AM
Raggytash 27 Apr 16 - 05:36 AM
Teribus 27 Apr 16 - 05:45 AM
Raggytash 27 Apr 16 - 06:01 AM
Teribus 27 Apr 16 - 11:36 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Apr 16 - 11:46 AM
Teribus 27 Apr 16 - 12:26 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Apr 16 - 01:26 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Apr 16 - 01:57 PM
Raggytash 27 Apr 16 - 02:05 PM
Raggytash 27 Apr 16 - 02:10 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Apr 16 - 03:14 PM
Teribus 28 Apr 16 - 04:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Apr 16 - 04:51 AM
Raggytash 28 Apr 16 - 05:01 AM
Dave the Gnome 28 Apr 16 - 06:29 AM
Teribus 28 Apr 16 - 08:21 AM
Raggytash 28 Apr 16 - 08:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Apr 16 - 10:30 AM
Steve Shaw 28 Apr 16 - 11:04 AM
Teribus 28 Apr 16 - 11:17 AM
Teribus 28 Apr 16 - 12:47 PM
Thompson 28 Apr 16 - 12:58 PM
Dave the Gnome 28 Apr 16 - 01:32 PM
Joe Offer 28 Apr 16 - 01:32 PM
Teribus 28 Apr 16 - 01:42 PM
Raggytash 28 Apr 16 - 02:04 PM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Apr 16 - 02:24 PM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Apr 16 - 02:34 PM
Raggytash 28 Apr 16 - 02:57 PM
Raggytash 28 Apr 16 - 03:03 PM
Greg F. 28 Apr 16 - 04:15 PM
Joe Offer 28 Apr 16 - 05:10 PM
The Sandman 28 Apr 16 - 05:32 PM
Joe Offer 28 Apr 16 - 06:17 PM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Apr 16 - 03:46 AM
Teribus 29 Apr 16 - 03:56 AM
Raggytash 29 Apr 16 - 04:00 AM
Raggytash 29 Apr 16 - 04:10 AM
Joe Offer 29 Apr 16 - 04:13 AM
Teribus 29 Apr 16 - 04:24 AM
Raggytash 29 Apr 16 - 04:25 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Apr 16 - 04:25 AM
Raggytash 29 Apr 16 - 04:38 AM
Teribus 29 Apr 16 - 04:39 AM
Teribus 29 Apr 16 - 04:53 AM
Raggytash 29 Apr 16 - 05:07 AM
Teribus 29 Apr 16 - 05:58 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Apr 16 - 06:18 AM
Raggytash 29 Apr 16 - 06:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Apr 16 - 07:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Apr 16 - 07:20 AM
Raggytash 29 Apr 16 - 07:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Apr 16 - 07:35 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Apr 16 - 07:47 AM
Raggytash 29 Apr 16 - 08:04 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Apr 16 - 08:52 AM
Joe Offer 29 Apr 16 - 09:40 AM
Teribus 29 Apr 16 - 11:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Apr 16 - 11:11 AM
Steve Shaw 29 Apr 16 - 12:53 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Apr 16 - 03:38 AM
Teribus 30 Apr 16 - 04:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Apr 16 - 04:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Apr 16 - 04:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Apr 16 - 04:59 AM
Raggytash 30 Apr 16 - 05:00 AM
Raggytash 30 Apr 16 - 05:05 AM
Raggytash 30 Apr 16 - 05:09 AM
Teribus 30 Apr 16 - 05:12 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Apr 16 - 05:26 AM
Raggytash 30 Apr 16 - 05:27 AM
Raggytash 30 Apr 16 - 05:32 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Apr 16 - 05:58 AM
Teribus 30 Apr 16 - 06:12 AM
Teribus 30 Apr 16 - 06:22 AM
Raggytash 30 Apr 16 - 06:27 AM
Raggytash 30 Apr 16 - 07:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Apr 16 - 07:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Apr 16 - 07:55 AM
Raggytash 30 Apr 16 - 08:05 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Apr 16 - 08:44 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Apr 16 - 09:35 AM
Teribus 30 Apr 16 - 10:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Apr 16 - 10:29 AM
Greg F. 30 Apr 16 - 10:38 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Apr 16 - 10:42 AM
Steve Shaw 30 Apr 16 - 10:44 AM
Teribus 30 Apr 16 - 10:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Apr 16 - 10:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Apr 16 - 11:03 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Apr 16 - 12:15 PM
Teribus 30 Apr 16 - 01:09 PM
Raggytash 30 Apr 16 - 01:23 PM
Raggytash 30 Apr 16 - 01:26 PM
Teribus 30 Apr 16 - 01:54 PM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Apr 16 - 02:12 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Apr 16 - 02:21 PM
Raggytash 30 Apr 16 - 02:26 PM
Teribus 30 Apr 16 - 04:18 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Apr 16 - 05:42 PM
Steve Shaw 30 Apr 16 - 08:23 PM
Amos 30 Apr 16 - 09:06 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 May 16 - 01:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 May 16 - 01:59 AM
Raggytash 01 May 16 - 02:40 AM
Teribus 01 May 16 - 02:51 AM
Raggytash 01 May 16 - 03:00 AM
Teribus 01 May 16 - 03:21 AM
Jim Carroll 01 May 16 - 03:35 AM
Teribus 01 May 16 - 03:41 AM
Raggytash 01 May 16 - 03:46 AM
Steve Shaw 01 May 16 - 03:58 AM
Teribus 01 May 16 - 04:08 AM
Teribus 01 May 16 - 04:11 AM
Teribus 01 May 16 - 04:15 AM
Teribus 01 May 16 - 04:21 AM
Jim Carroll 01 May 16 - 04:27 AM
Raggytash 01 May 16 - 04:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 May 16 - 04:55 AM
Raggytash 01 May 16 - 04:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 May 16 - 05:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 May 16 - 05:05 AM
Raggytash 01 May 16 - 05:08 AM
Raggytash 01 May 16 - 05:24 AM
Jim Carroll 01 May 16 - 05:36 AM
Jim Carroll 01 May 16 - 05:42 AM
Teribus 01 May 16 - 06:52 AM
Teribus 01 May 16 - 07:03 AM
Raggytash 01 May 16 - 07:10 AM
Jim Carroll 01 May 16 - 07:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 May 16 - 09:13 AM
Jim Carroll 01 May 16 - 09:14 AM
Jim Carroll 01 May 16 - 11:18 AM
Teribus 01 May 16 - 11:49 AM
Jim Carroll 01 May 16 - 12:21 PM
Amos 01 May 16 - 01:05 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 May 16 - 01:10 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 May 16 - 01:17 PM
Amos 01 May 16 - 01:53 PM
Jim Carroll 01 May 16 - 02:01 PM
Raggytash 01 May 16 - 02:03 PM
Jim Carroll 01 May 16 - 02:32 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 May 16 - 03:13 PM
Jim Carroll 01 May 16 - 05:30 PM
Teribus 01 May 16 - 07:34 PM
Teribus 01 May 16 - 07:38 PM
Joe Offer 01 May 16 - 08:55 PM
Joe Offer 01 May 16 - 09:33 PM
Teribus 02 May 16 - 02:30 AM
Teribus 02 May 16 - 03:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 May 16 - 04:20 AM
Jim Carroll 02 May 16 - 04:22 AM
Teribus 02 May 16 - 04:39 AM
Jim Carroll 02 May 16 - 04:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 May 16 - 04:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 May 16 - 04:53 AM
Jim Carroll 02 May 16 - 06:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 May 16 - 03:12 PM
Raggytash 02 May 16 - 03:22 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 May 16 - 03:32 PM
Greg F. 02 May 16 - 05:38 PM
Teribus 02 May 16 - 06:23 PM
Raggytash 03 May 16 - 02:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 May 16 - 03:00 AM
Raggytash 03 May 16 - 03:36 AM
Teribus 03 May 16 - 03:54 AM
Raggytash 03 May 16 - 03:57 AM
Jim Carroll 03 May 16 - 03:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 May 16 - 03:58 AM
Jim Carroll 03 May 16 - 04:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 May 16 - 04:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 May 16 - 04:36 AM
Raggytash 03 May 16 - 04:49 AM
Jim Carroll 03 May 16 - 04:54 AM
Jim Carroll 03 May 16 - 06:01 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 May 16 - 06:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 May 16 - 06:51 AM
Jim Carroll 03 May 16 - 08:13 AM
Raggytash 03 May 16 - 08:35 AM
Jim Carroll 03 May 16 - 08:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 May 16 - 10:05 AM
Raggytash 03 May 16 - 10:40 AM
Jim Carroll 03 May 16 - 10:56 AM
Jim Carroll 03 May 16 - 12:38 PM
Raggytash 03 May 16 - 12:46 PM
The Sandman 03 May 16 - 01:06 PM
Jim Carroll 03 May 16 - 02:18 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 May 16 - 02:22 PM
Raggytash 03 May 16 - 02:35 PM
Teribus 03 May 16 - 03:08 PM
Teribus 03 May 16 - 03:18 PM
MGM·Lion 03 May 16 - 05:33 PM
Greg F. 03 May 16 - 05:53 PM
Jim Carroll 04 May 16 - 09:29 AM
Jim Carroll 04 May 16 - 09:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 May 16 - 09:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 May 16 - 09:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 May 16 - 09:58 AM
Jim Carroll 04 May 16 - 10:35 AM
Jim Carroll 04 May 16 - 11:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 May 16 - 11:48 AM
Jim Carroll 04 May 16 - 11:58 AM
Raggytash 04 May 16 - 12:16 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 May 16 - 12:16 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 May 16 - 12:22 PM
Jim Carroll 04 May 16 - 01:02 PM
Teribus 04 May 16 - 01:03 PM
Teribus 04 May 16 - 01:16 PM
Jim Carroll 04 May 16 - 01:19 PM
Teribus 04 May 16 - 01:44 PM
Raggytash 04 May 16 - 02:06 PM
Raggytash 04 May 16 - 02:10 PM
Jim Carroll 04 May 16 - 02:12 PM
The Sandman 04 May 16 - 02:15 PM
The Sandman 04 May 16 - 02:24 PM
Teribus 04 May 16 - 02:40 PM
Jim Carroll 04 May 16 - 02:55 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 May 16 - 03:02 PM
Jim Carroll 04 May 16 - 03:07 PM
Raggytash 04 May 16 - 03:16 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 May 16 - 03:22 PM
Raggytash 04 May 16 - 03:23 PM
Teribus 04 May 16 - 05:07 PM
Teribus 04 May 16 - 05:27 PM
Greg F. 04 May 16 - 06:14 PM
Jim Carroll 04 May 16 - 09:15 PM
ollaimh 04 May 16 - 10:17 PM
Raggytash 05 May 16 - 02:16 AM
Teribus 05 May 16 - 03:19 AM
Teribus 05 May 16 - 03:38 AM
Jim Carroll 05 May 16 - 03:39 AM
Raggytash 05 May 16 - 03:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 May 16 - 03:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 May 16 - 04:04 AM
Raggytash 05 May 16 - 04:08 AM
Raggytash 05 May 16 - 04:11 AM
Teribus 05 May 16 - 04:27 AM
Teribus 05 May 16 - 04:34 AM
Raggytash 05 May 16 - 04:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 May 16 - 04:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 May 16 - 04:59 AM
Raggytash 05 May 16 - 04:59 AM
Jim Carroll 05 May 16 - 05:47 AM
Teribus 05 May 16 - 05:54 AM
Teribus 05 May 16 - 06:05 AM
Raggytash 05 May 16 - 06:08 AM
Teribus 05 May 16 - 06:24 AM
Jim Carroll 05 May 16 - 06:24 AM
Raggytash 05 May 16 - 06:29 AM
Teribus 05 May 16 - 06:39 AM
Jim Carroll 05 May 16 - 06:47 AM
Raggytash 05 May 16 - 06:59 AM
Jim Carroll 05 May 16 - 08:12 AM
Greg F. 05 May 16 - 08:17 AM
The Sandman 05 May 16 - 01:20 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 May 16 - 02:41 PM
Raggytash 05 May 16 - 02:51 PM
Jim Carroll 05 May 16 - 03:02 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 May 16 - 03:12 PM
Jim Carroll 05 May 16 - 03:13 PM
Raggytash 05 May 16 - 03:58 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 May 16 - 05:02 AM
Raggytash 06 May 16 - 05:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 May 16 - 05:14 AM
Raggytash 06 May 16 - 05:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 May 16 - 06:42 AM
Raggytash 06 May 16 - 07:01 AM
Jim Carroll 06 May 16 - 07:23 AM
Jim Carroll 06 May 16 - 10:30 AM
Joe Offer 06 May 16 - 01:17 PM
Raggytash 06 May 16 - 04:15 PM
Greg F. 06 May 16 - 05:55 PM
An Pluiméir Ceolmhar 06 May 16 - 07:18 PM
Steve Shaw 06 May 16 - 07:34 PM
Joe Offer 07 May 16 - 12:14 AM
Teribus 07 May 16 - 01:37 AM
Joe Offer 07 May 16 - 01:51 AM
Teribus 07 May 16 - 01:57 AM
Teribus 07 May 16 - 02:06 AM
Raggytash 07 May 16 - 02:58 AM
Teribus 07 May 16 - 03:11 AM
Teribus 07 May 16 - 04:43 AM
Raggytash 07 May 16 - 10:02 AM
Teribus 07 May 16 - 10:40 AM
Steve Shaw 07 May 16 - 10:47 AM
Raggytash 07 May 16 - 10:57 AM
Greg F. 07 May 16 - 12:31 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 May 16 - 01:55 PM
The Sandman 07 May 16 - 02:17 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 May 16 - 02:17 PM
Steve Shaw 07 May 16 - 02:20 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 May 16 - 02:26 PM
Steve Shaw 07 May 16 - 02:31 PM
Joe Offer 07 May 16 - 02:56 PM
Raggytash 07 May 16 - 04:10 PM
Teribus 07 May 16 - 04:47 PM
Teribus 07 May 16 - 04:52 PM
Raggytash 07 May 16 - 05:02 PM
Steve Shaw 07 May 16 - 06:34 PM
Joe Offer 07 May 16 - 08:58 PM
MGM·Lion 08 May 16 - 01:41 AM
Teribus 08 May 16 - 02:36 AM
Teribus 08 May 16 - 02:58 AM
Raggytash 08 May 16 - 03:04 AM
The Sandman 08 May 16 - 03:19 AM
Raggytash 08 May 16 - 04:03 AM
Teribus 08 May 16 - 04:10 AM
Raggytash 08 May 16 - 04:19 AM
Joe Offer 08 May 16 - 06:37 AM
Joe Offer 08 May 16 - 06:48 AM
Steve Shaw 08 May 16 - 06:55 AM
Raggytash 08 May 16 - 07:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 May 16 - 12:44 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 May 16 - 12:56 PM
Raggytash 08 May 16 - 02:04 PM
Raggytash 08 May 16 - 02:08 PM
Raggytash 08 May 16 - 02:14 PM
MGM·Lion 08 May 16 - 03:07 PM
The Sandman 08 May 16 - 03:12 PM
Raggytash 08 May 16 - 03:13 PM
Steve Shaw 08 May 16 - 07:56 PM
An Pluiméir Ceolmhar 08 May 16 - 07:58 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 May 16 - 01:52 AM
Raggytash 09 May 16 - 02:22 AM
Teribus 09 May 16 - 02:44 AM
Raggytash 09 May 16 - 02:51 AM
The Sandman 09 May 16 - 03:07 AM
Teribus 09 May 16 - 03:11 AM
Joe Offer 09 May 16 - 03:19 AM
Raggytash 09 May 16 - 03:27 AM
Teribus 09 May 16 - 03:47 AM
Teribus 09 May 16 - 03:54 AM
Teribus 09 May 16 - 04:11 AM
Raggytash 09 May 16 - 04:13 AM
Joe Offer 09 May 16 - 04:24 AM
Thompson 09 May 16 - 05:23 AM
The Sandman 09 May 16 - 05:42 AM
Teribus 09 May 16 - 07:25 AM
Raggytash 09 May 16 - 07:43 AM
Teribus 09 May 16 - 07:46 AM
Teribus 09 May 16 - 07:48 AM
Raggytash 09 May 16 - 07:52 AM
Jim Carroll 09 May 16 - 01:07 PM
Jim Carroll 09 May 16 - 01:30 PM
Jim Carroll 09 May 16 - 01:37 PM
Raggytash 09 May 16 - 02:32 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 May 16 - 03:08 PM
Teribus 09 May 16 - 03:30 PM
Teribus 09 May 16 - 03:30 PM
Jim Carroll 09 May 16 - 03:32 PM
Jim Carroll 09 May 16 - 03:42 PM
Thompson 09 May 16 - 05:09 PM
Jim Carroll 10 May 16 - 01:26 AM
Raggytash 10 May 16 - 02:42 AM
Thompson 10 May 16 - 02:51 AM
Thompson 10 May 16 - 02:55 AM
Jim Carroll 10 May 16 - 03:23 AM
Teribus 10 May 16 - 03:30 AM
Thompson 10 May 16 - 03:44 AM
Teribus 10 May 16 - 03:55 AM
Jim Carroll 10 May 16 - 04:03 AM
Teribus 10 May 16 - 04:06 AM
Jim Carroll 10 May 16 - 04:13 AM
Teribus 10 May 16 - 04:43 AM
Thompson 10 May 16 - 05:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 May 16 - 05:10 AM
Jim Carroll 10 May 16 - 05:54 AM
Teribus 10 May 16 - 06:19 AM
Teribus 10 May 16 - 06:27 AM
Raggytash 10 May 16 - 06:31 AM
Jim Carroll 10 May 16 - 06:45 AM
Jim Carroll 10 May 16 - 06:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 May 16 - 06:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 May 16 - 07:00 AM
Jim Carroll 10 May 16 - 07:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 May 16 - 07:48 AM
Raggytash 10 May 16 - 07:50 AM
Jim Carroll 10 May 16 - 07:57 AM
Jim Carroll 10 May 16 - 10:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 May 16 - 10:40 AM
Raggytash 10 May 16 - 10:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 May 16 - 10:58 AM
Greg F. 10 May 16 - 10:59 AM
Raggytash 10 May 16 - 11:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 May 16 - 11:23 AM
Raggytash 10 May 16 - 11:31 AM
Thompson 10 May 16 - 11:33 AM
Jim Carroll 10 May 16 - 11:39 AM
Teribus 10 May 16 - 02:42 PM
Teribus 10 May 16 - 02:49 PM
Keith A of Hertford 10 May 16 - 02:55 PM
Joe Offer 10 May 16 - 04:08 PM
The Sandman 10 May 16 - 04:25 PM
Thompson 10 May 16 - 05:01 PM
Raggytash 10 May 16 - 06:30 PM
Raggytash 10 May 16 - 06:39 PM
Joe Offer 10 May 16 - 10:07 PM
Jim Carroll 11 May 16 - 06:46 AM
Teribus 11 May 16 - 08:05 AM
Jim Carroll 11 May 16 - 08:35 AM
Jim Carroll 11 May 16 - 09:20 AM
Teribus 11 May 16 - 02:38 PM
Joe Offer 11 May 16 - 02:49 PM
Joe Offer 11 May 16 - 02:52 PM
Steve Shaw 11 May 16 - 03:13 PM
Jim Carroll 11 May 16 - 03:17 PM
Joe Offer 11 May 16 - 03:29 PM
Teribus 11 May 16 - 03:37 PM
Joe Offer 11 May 16 - 03:48 PM
Teribus 11 May 16 - 05:20 PM
Joe Offer 11 May 16 - 06:00 PM
Teribus 12 May 16 - 03:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 May 16 - 04:44 AM
Raggytash 12 May 16 - 05:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 May 16 - 05:38 AM
Raggytash 12 May 16 - 05:49 AM
Teribus 12 May 16 - 06:28 AM
Jim Carroll 12 May 16 - 07:07 AM
Teribus 12 May 16 - 07:19 AM
Teribus 12 May 16 - 08:09 AM
Greg F. 12 May 16 - 08:21 AM
Teribus 12 May 16 - 08:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 May 16 - 09:37 AM
Teribus 12 May 16 - 10:00 AM
Jim Carroll 12 May 16 - 08:47 PM
The Sandman 13 May 16 - 12:59 AM
Teribus 13 May 16 - 01:53 AM
Teribus 13 May 16 - 02:30 AM
Jim Carroll 13 May 16 - 03:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 May 16 - 03:28 AM
Teribus 13 May 16 - 03:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 May 16 - 03:36 AM
Jim Carroll 13 May 16 - 04:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 May 16 - 04:38 AM
Jim Carroll 13 May 16 - 04:48 AM
The Sandman 13 May 16 - 05:03 AM
Jim Carroll 13 May 16 - 05:04 AM
Teribus 13 May 16 - 05:25 AM
Raggytash 13 May 16 - 05:37 AM
Teribus 13 May 16 - 05:41 AM
Raggytash 13 May 16 - 05:41 AM
Teribus 13 May 16 - 06:18 AM
Jim Carroll 13 May 16 - 06:19 AM
Raggytash 13 May 16 - 06:26 AM
Raggytash 13 May 16 - 06:39 AM
Teribus 13 May 16 - 06:42 AM
Raggytash 13 May 16 - 06:49 AM
Teribus 13 May 16 - 06:51 AM
Raggytash 13 May 16 - 06:54 AM
Raggytash 13 May 16 - 07:05 AM
Teribus 13 May 16 - 07:06 AM
Teribus 13 May 16 - 07:11 AM
Raggytash 13 May 16 - 07:14 AM
Raggytash 13 May 16 - 07:18 AM
Teribus 13 May 16 - 07:25 AM
Raggytash 13 May 16 - 07:41 AM
Jim Carroll 13 May 16 - 08:21 AM
Jim Carroll 13 May 16 - 09:11 AM
Teribus 13 May 16 - 09:35 AM
Jim Carroll 13 May 16 - 10:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 May 16 - 01:04 PM
The Sandman 13 May 16 - 01:35 PM
Jim Carroll 13 May 16 - 01:55 PM
Joe Offer 13 May 16 - 02:58 PM
Jim Carroll 13 May 16 - 03:17 PM
Teribus 13 May 16 - 04:22 PM
Teribus 13 May 16 - 08:19 PM
Jim Carroll 14 May 16 - 04:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 May 16 - 05:13 AM
Jim Carroll 14 May 16 - 05:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 May 16 - 06:33 AM
Teribus 14 May 16 - 08:24 AM
Jim Carroll 14 May 16 - 10:48 AM
Greg F. 14 May 16 - 10:48 AM
Teribus 14 May 16 - 11:18 AM
Teribus 14 May 16 - 11:27 AM
Jim Carroll 14 May 16 - 12:04 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 May 16 - 12:30 PM
The Sandman 14 May 16 - 01:09 PM
Teribus 14 May 16 - 01:35 PM
Teribus 14 May 16 - 01:49 PM
Joe Offer 14 May 16 - 01:49 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 May 16 - 02:16 PM
The Sandman 14 May 16 - 02:32 PM
Jim Carroll 14 May 16 - 03:01 PM
Teribus 14 May 16 - 03:05 PM
Teribus 14 May 16 - 03:37 PM
Jim Carroll 14 May 16 - 03:39 PM
Jim Carroll 14 May 16 - 03:44 PM
Teribus 14 May 16 - 04:37 PM
Teribus 14 May 16 - 04:54 PM
Jim Carroll 14 May 16 - 05:53 PM
Teribus 14 May 16 - 08:35 PM
Jim Carroll 15 May 16 - 01:40 AM
Jim Carroll 15 May 16 - 01:50 AM
Teribus 15 May 16 - 04:56 AM
Jim Carroll 15 May 16 - 06:14 AM
Jim Carroll 15 May 16 - 06:28 AM
Jim Carroll 15 May 16 - 07:14 AM
Jim Carroll 15 May 16 - 08:56 AM
Teribus 15 May 16 - 10:23 AM
Jim Carroll 15 May 16 - 11:02 AM
Jim Carroll 15 May 16 - 11:20 AM
Teribus 15 May 16 - 12:20 PM
Jim Carroll 15 May 16 - 12:32 PM
Teribus 15 May 16 - 01:39 PM
Jim Carroll 15 May 16 - 01:47 PM
Jim Carroll 15 May 16 - 02:36 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 May 16 - 03:04 PM
Jim Carroll 16 May 16 - 04:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 May 16 - 05:24 AM
Jim Carroll 16 May 16 - 05:37 AM
Jim Carroll 16 May 16 - 06:42 AM
Jim Carroll 16 May 16 - 06:51 AM
Teribus 16 May 16 - 06:58 AM
Jim Carroll 16 May 16 - 07:14 AM
Jim Carroll 16 May 16 - 07:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 May 16 - 08:39 AM
Jim Carroll 16 May 16 - 09:07 AM
Teribus 16 May 16 - 09:15 AM
Teribus 16 May 16 - 09:48 AM
Jim Carroll 16 May 16 - 10:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 May 16 - 10:27 AM
Jim Carroll 16 May 16 - 11:07 AM
Jim Carroll 16 May 16 - 11:24 AM
Teribus 16 May 16 - 12:33 PM
Teribus 16 May 16 - 12:47 PM
Jim Carroll 16 May 16 - 01:22 PM
Teribus 16 May 16 - 01:27 PM
Teribus 16 May 16 - 01:44 PM
Jim Carroll 16 May 16 - 01:54 PM
Jim Carroll 16 May 16 - 02:13 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 May 16 - 02:35 PM
Jim Carroll 16 May 16 - 02:47 PM
Jim Carroll 16 May 16 - 03:14 PM
Teribus 16 May 16 - 05:18 PM
Jim Carroll 16 May 16 - 08:04 PM
Teribus 16 May 16 - 10:08 PM
Teribus 17 May 16 - 04:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 May 16 - 04:47 AM
Teribus 17 May 16 - 04:56 AM
Teribus 17 May 16 - 05:38 AM
Teribus 17 May 16 - 05:53 AM
Teribus 17 May 16 - 06:08 AM
Teribus 17 May 16 - 10:05 AM
Jim Carroll 17 May 16 - 10:45 AM
Teribus 17 May 16 - 11:18 AM
Jim Carroll 17 May 16 - 12:01 PM
Teribus 17 May 16 - 07:19 PM
Jim Carroll 18 May 16 - 04:01 AM
Jim Carroll 18 May 16 - 05:14 AM
Jim Carroll 18 May 16 - 06:33 AM
Teribus 18 May 16 - 06:56 AM
Jim Carroll 18 May 16 - 08:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 May 16 - 02:17 PM
Jim Carroll 18 May 16 - 02:51 PM
Teribus 18 May 16 - 03:40 PM
Jim Carroll 18 May 16 - 07:53 PM
Jim Carroll 18 May 16 - 08:26 PM
Teribus 19 May 16 - 03:14 AM
Teribus 19 May 16 - 03:42 AM
Jim Carroll 19 May 16 - 04:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 May 16 - 04:51 AM
Teribus 19 May 16 - 06:09 AM
Jim Carroll 19 May 16 - 08:01 AM
Jim Carroll 19 May 16 - 08:37 AM
Teribus 19 May 16 - 08:53 AM
Jim Carroll 19 May 16 - 09:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 May 16 - 10:21 AM
Jim Carroll 19 May 16 - 11:38 AM
Jim Carroll 19 May 16 - 11:44 AM
Jim Carroll 19 May 16 - 12:49 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 May 16 - 01:30 PM
Jim Carroll 19 May 16 - 02:31 PM
Teribus 19 May 16 - 03:18 PM
Jim Carroll 19 May 16 - 08:32 PM
Teribus 20 May 16 - 02:54 AM
Joe Offer 20 May 16 - 04:06 AM
Jim Carroll 20 May 16 - 04:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 May 16 - 04:30 AM
Teribus 20 May 16 - 05:05 AM
Teribus 20 May 16 - 05:39 AM
Jim Carroll 20 May 16 - 05:45 AM
Teribus 20 May 16 - 06:55 AM
Teribus 20 May 16 - 07:12 AM
Jim Carroll 20 May 16 - 07:12 AM
Jim Carroll 20 May 16 - 07:29 AM
The Sandman 20 May 16 - 08:41 AM
Teribus 20 May 16 - 09:06 AM
Teribus 20 May 16 - 09:19 AM
Greg F. 20 May 16 - 09:21 AM
The Sandman 20 May 16 - 09:40 AM
Jim Carroll 20 May 16 - 10:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 May 16 - 10:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 May 16 - 10:13 AM
Jim Carroll 20 May 16 - 10:54 AM
Jim Carroll 20 May 16 - 11:18 AM
Jim Carroll 20 May 16 - 11:48 AM
Teribus 20 May 16 - 12:57 PM
Jim Carroll 20 May 16 - 01:40 PM
Jim Carroll 20 May 16 - 01:45 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 May 16 - 03:15 PM
The Sandman 21 May 16 - 01:59 AM
Joe Offer 21 May 16 - 04:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 May 16 - 10:31 AM
Greg F. 21 May 16 - 10:44 AM
The Sandman 21 May 16 - 11:39 AM
Jim Carroll 21 May 16 - 12:26 PM
Teribus 21 May 16 - 06:07 PM
Jim Carroll 21 May 16 - 07:53 PM
Joe Offer 21 May 16 - 08:52 PM
Teribus 22 May 16 - 03:27 AM
Teribus 22 May 16 - 03:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 May 16 - 03:53 AM
Jim Carroll 22 May 16 - 04:34 AM
Jim Carroll 22 May 16 - 04:45 AM
Teribus 22 May 16 - 05:08 AM
Jim Carroll 22 May 16 - 06:28 AM
Jim Carroll 22 May 16 - 06:47 AM
Teribus 22 May 16 - 08:36 AM
Jim Carroll 22 May 16 - 08:52 AM
Jim Carroll 22 May 16 - 09:02 AM
Raggytash 22 May 16 - 10:38 AM
Teribus 22 May 16 - 11:07 AM
Teribus 22 May 16 - 11:29 AM
Jim Carroll 22 May 16 - 11:42 AM
Jim Carroll 22 May 16 - 11:45 AM
Teribus 22 May 16 - 02:03 PM
Jim Carroll 22 May 16 - 03:10 PM
Steve Shaw 22 May 16 - 03:42 PM
Jim Carroll 23 May 16 - 11:47 AM
Jim Carroll 23 May 16 - 01:09 PM
Lonesome EJ 23 May 16 - 02:18 PM
Teribus 23 May 16 - 03:41 PM
Teribus 23 May 16 - 04:36 PM
Jim Carroll 23 May 16 - 08:16 PM
Teribus 24 May 16 - 02:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 May 16 - 03:23 AM
The Sandman 24 May 16 - 03:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 May 16 - 04:05 AM
Raggytash 24 May 16 - 04:09 AM
Jim Carroll 24 May 16 - 04:22 AM
Teribus 24 May 16 - 04:42 AM
Jim Carroll 24 May 16 - 06:16 AM
Teribus 24 May 16 - 06:43 AM
Jim Carroll 24 May 16 - 07:00 AM
Jim Carroll 24 May 16 - 07:01 AM
The Sandman 24 May 16 - 08:01 AM
Jim Carroll 24 May 16 - 08:09 AM
Teribus 24 May 16 - 09:47 AM
Raggytash 24 May 16 - 10:00 AM
Teribus 24 May 16 - 10:49 AM
Jim Carroll 24 May 16 - 11:02 AM
Jim Carroll 24 May 16 - 11:05 AM
Teribus 24 May 16 - 12:58 PM
Jim Carroll 24 May 16 - 01:14 PM
Teribus 24 May 16 - 02:10 PM
Raggytash 24 May 16 - 02:13 PM
Jim Carroll 24 May 16 - 02:51 PM
The Sandman 24 May 16 - 06:41 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 May 16 - 03:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 May 16 - 03:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 May 16 - 03:46 AM
Teribus 25 May 16 - 04:16 AM
Teribus 25 May 16 - 04:38 AM
Jim Carroll 25 May 16 - 04:41 AM
Jim Carroll 25 May 16 - 04:47 AM
Teribus 25 May 16 - 05:20 AM
Jim Carroll 25 May 16 - 05:41 AM
Teribus 25 May 16 - 05:54 AM
Raggytash 25 May 16 - 06:00 AM
Teribus 25 May 16 - 06:07 AM
Teribus 25 May 16 - 06:10 AM
Raggytash 25 May 16 - 06:28 AM
Jim Carroll 25 May 16 - 06:30 AM
Teribus 25 May 16 - 06:42 AM
Jim Carroll 25 May 16 - 08:35 AM
Teribus 25 May 16 - 09:09 AM
Teribus 25 May 16 - 09:54 AM
Jim Carroll 25 May 16 - 10:59 AM
Jim Carroll 25 May 16 - 11:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 May 16 - 11:35 AM
Teribus 25 May 16 - 01:21 PM
Jim Carroll 25 May 16 - 03:04 PM
The Sandman 25 May 16 - 03:07 PM
Raggytash 25 May 16 - 03:44 PM
Teribus 25 May 16 - 04:54 PM
Teribus 25 May 16 - 05:08 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 May 16 - 03:57 AM
Raggytash 26 May 16 - 04:11 AM
Jim Carroll 26 May 16 - 04:31 AM
Jim Carroll 26 May 16 - 04:34 AM
Steve Shaw 26 May 16 - 04:43 AM
Jim Carroll 26 May 16 - 05:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 May 16 - 07:49 AM
Raggytash 26 May 16 - 08:25 AM
Jim Carroll 26 May 16 - 08:35 AM
Jim Carroll 26 May 16 - 09:31 AM
Teribus 26 May 16 - 10:13 AM
Jim Carroll 26 May 16 - 12:11 PM
Jim Carroll 26 May 16 - 12:11 PM
Jim Carroll 26 May 16 - 03:17 PM
Raggytash 26 May 16 - 03:44 PM
Greg F. 26 May 16 - 05:32 PM
Teribus 26 May 16 - 07:07 PM
Teribus 26 May 16 - 07:29 PM
Jim Carroll 27 May 16 - 03:44 AM
bobad 27 May 16 - 07:50 AM
Greg F. 27 May 16 - 07:54 AM
bobad 27 May 16 - 08:09 AM
bobad 27 May 16 - 08:29 AM
Jim Carroll 27 May 16 - 08:45 AM
Teribus 27 May 16 - 09:21 AM
Jim Carroll 27 May 16 - 09:35 AM
Raggytash 27 May 16 - 09:49 AM
Teribus 27 May 16 - 11:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 May 16 - 11:48 AM
Jim Carroll 27 May 16 - 12:29 PM
Teribus 27 May 16 - 12:38 PM
Jim Carroll 27 May 16 - 12:41 PM
Raggytash 27 May 16 - 02:11 PM
Jim Carroll 27 May 16 - 02:17 PM
Greg F. 27 May 16 - 02:34 PM
Jim Carroll 27 May 16 - 02:36 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 May 16 - 03:25 PM
Raggytash 27 May 16 - 03:44 PM
Teribus 27 May 16 - 03:48 PM
Jim Carroll 28 May 16 - 04:46 AM
Jim Carroll 28 May 16 - 05:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 May 16 - 10:21 AM
Raggytash 28 May 16 - 10:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 May 16 - 10:42 AM
Raggytash 28 May 16 - 10:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 May 16 - 11:50 AM
Jim Carroll 28 May 16 - 12:11 PM
Teribus 28 May 16 - 12:13 PM
Jim Carroll 28 May 16 - 12:20 PM
Raggytash 28 May 16 - 04:27 PM
Steve Shaw 28 May 16 - 06:17 PM
Jim Carroll 29 May 16 - 03:03 AM
Jim Carroll 29 May 16 - 05:48 AM
Steve Shaw 29 May 16 - 06:25 AM
Teribus 30 May 16 - 03:01 AM
Jim Carroll 30 May 16 - 03:56 AM
Jim Carroll 30 May 16 - 04:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 May 16 - 05:43 AM
Greg F. 30 May 16 - 07:23 AM
Jim Carroll 30 May 16 - 07:28 AM
Jim Carroll 30 May 16 - 08:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 May 16 - 08:44 AM
Raggytash 30 May 16 - 08:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 May 16 - 09:02 AM
Raggytash 30 May 16 - 09:16 AM
Jim Carroll 30 May 16 - 09:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 May 16 - 09:31 AM
Teribus 30 May 16 - 10:10 AM
Jim Carroll 30 May 16 - 10:24 AM
Jim Carroll 30 May 16 - 10:41 AM
Jim Carroll 30 May 16 - 11:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 May 16 - 01:41 PM
Teribus 30 May 16 - 01:59 PM
Jim Carroll 30 May 16 - 02:50 PM
Teribus 31 May 16 - 02:37 AM
Teribus 31 May 16 - 02:55 AM
Jim Carroll 31 May 16 - 03:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 May 16 - 04:28 AM
Jim Carroll 31 May 16 - 05:00 AM
Jim Carroll 31 May 16 - 05:00 AM
Teribus 31 May 16 - 05:48 AM
Teribus 31 May 16 - 06:19 AM
Jim Carroll 31 May 16 - 06:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 May 16 - 06:41 AM
Raggytash 31 May 16 - 06:45 AM
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Greg F. 07 Jun 16 - 09:50 AM
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Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 16 - 03:53 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Jun 16 - 05:18 AM
Greg F. 08 Jun 16 - 09:16 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Jun 16 - 10:11 AM
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Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 16 - 02:34 PM
Teribus 08 Jun 16 - 03:25 PM
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Jim Carroll 09 Jun 16 - 03:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 16 - 04:25 AM
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Jim Carroll 09 Jun 16 - 07:24 AM
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Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 16 - 08:31 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jun 16 - 09:53 AM
Teribus 09 Jun 16 - 10:10 AM
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Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 16 - 11:09 AM
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Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 16 - 02:33 PM
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Raggytash 10 Jun 16 - 12:11 PM
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Keith A of Hertford 11 Jun 16 - 05:50 AM
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Jim Carroll 11 Jun 16 - 11:53 AM
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Jim Carroll 11 Jun 16 - 01:26 PM
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Keith A of Hertford 12 Jun 16 - 04:30 AM
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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 24 Mar 15 - 05:06 AM

There's a great misconception that the IRA staged the Easter rising, wrong. It was the Irish National Brotherhood. The IRA at that time was actually a Pacifist org. They were asked to support it by the Brotherhood but refused. So against it they even took out an ad in TheDublin Post waring their members not to take part! Even more remarkable is the fact that the neither the British or the Post office seemed to read the paper, as they were still un prepared on the 16th! It was a vry ill fated if brave attempt. In fact such was the lack of popular support for the Brotherhood that when they were finally led away as prisoners they were booed and jeered by the crowds!
Had the British NOT xecuted the leaders it would surely have gone down as just another failed uprising, but the executions finally stirred the Irish public out of their submissivness and into action, even the IRA were finally moved to arms
May they rest i peace. 'Beware The Risen Few'


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: mayomick
Date: 24 Mar 15 - 06:21 AM

You're mixing up Sinn Fein, the IRA and the IRB , Desi. The IRA was never a pacifist organization. Sinn Fein had pacifists in it but was never a pacifist organization (nor a republican one for that matter -Arthur Griffith its founder was a monarchist ). The IRA didn't exist in 1916 , the IRB from which the IRA was formed and the Irish Citizens Army did the fighting.

An interesting Orange song whose proud, all-Ireland dimension would make any modern Orangeman who was capable of being embarrassed blush. What's mystery , Mr Peasant other than the"dismal shade" of self-induced ignorance? Research the song and you'll find it perfectly explainable , I'm sure!

By the way re the Behan joke - there are no steps into the GPO .


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Murpholly
Date: 24 Mar 15 - 07:09 AM

G.P.O. in Dublin was re-built and is still operational as Major Post Office and as a tourist focal point. Great boards round the waiting areas depict various happenings of the Rising almost like stations of the cross!!! Will be interested to know which date they celebrate next year - Easter - or the actual date which is different with the changing dates of Easter. On last visit to Glasnevin they had almost finished the clearing up, tidying and rebuilding ready for the Centenary. Should be interesting times.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: JenBurdoo
Date: 25 Mar 15 - 02:09 AM

My dad and I visited the GPO in Dublin last year. Quite interesting. There's a video with actors playing the roles of postal employees and their reactions to the Rising, and also some good dioramas. Unrelated to the Rising is a mini-museum of postal history. Outside is a giant metal spire which stands in place of Nelson's Column and is a lot less impressive - none of the locals we met had anything complimentary to say about it.

We also spent a couple hours in a nearby bar named for one of the ringleaders (Can't remember which - Connolly?) who had spent much of his time there before the war.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Thompson
Date: 25 Mar 15 - 03:27 AM

Are all the posters on this thread drunk?


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Thompson
Date: 25 Mar 15 - 03:28 AM

Incidentally, the term "ringleaders" for the leaders of the Rising is about as acceptable as if I were to refer to George Washington as "one of the ringleaders" of the American Rising.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Thompson
Date: 25 Mar 15 - 05:09 AM

Well, the lads didn't actually get off the ferry. They'd come over some months before and been living at Larkfield, a farm owned by Joseph Plunkett's family, and training there. George Plunkett at their head, they marched down to the Kimmage tram stop and piled on to the first tram, and George said "Fifty-two tuppenny tickets to the city centre please".

The songs that were most sung during the Rising were Step Together - always used as a marching song before the Rising while on exercises - and The Soldier's Song, now in translation our national anthem, Amhrán na bhFíann.

Incidentally, something that isn't often understood in modern times when people have more ready cash and guns are more common: the Volunteers and Citizen Army were very sparsely armed, and had very little ammunition. This was a couple of thousand men and women with shotguns and heavy Boer War era rifles and a few revolvers, and one or two with actual machine guns, and some even with old or homemade pikes and household implements, up against the most modern army in the world, armed with the most modern weapons and heavy artillery. The defenders were fighting through their home city; the attackers in many cases thought they were at the front in France, and were baffled by everyone knowing English.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 15 - 05:16 AM

Thanks for that T
One of the most memorable parts of Coffey's book is the description of the survivors of the uprising being brought out of the GPO and being set on by Dublin 'Shawlies' demanding, "why aren't you supporting our lads in the trenches".
It took the brutality of unnecessary, hastily carried out executions to turn what was widely regarded as a somewhat eccentric incident into a revolution.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Thompson
Date: 25 Mar 15 - 05:21 AM

That's the legend all right; but funnily enough, some witness statements are now surfacing, including one by a Canadian journalist, saying that in many parts of Dublin people supported the rebels.
Even this is surprising. Can you imagine the state of terror of the people of a city that is under military occupation and curfew, where you couldn't walk through town without showing a military-granted pass to soldiers of doubtful stability at every barricade, and where every day the intellectuals of the country are being shot after hasty trials of doubtful legality?


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Mar 15 - 05:54 AM

during war and revolution legality is never really an issue - all kinds of stuff goes on.

shooting people in cold blood is a shit thing to do, whatever the circumstances. its like the hanging of Casement. legally maybe they had the right - but morally, what a vile act!


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 15 - 06:06 AM

"That's the legend all right; "
Coffey gaave his source for the eye witness statement.
There is no doubt that there was support throughout Ireland, but a degree of confusion surrounding the attempted calling of of the uprising byy one leader let to a great deal of confusion as to how much
My father's brother-in-law was a runner for Collins later on - wish I'd spent more time with him while he was still living
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Thompson
Date: 25 Mar 15 - 08:27 AM

Yes, Jim, I'm not saying it didn't happen - sorry, I should have phrased it more clearly - but the legend has grown up (or has been deliberately built) that this was the universal reaction, when it was not.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 25 Mar 15 - 11:02 AM

It's amazing the things you end up wishing you'd done something about at the time.

When I was an apprentice I went out on a job with my foreman. On the way back he announced that he was going to call in on an old farmer he knew, an ex-IRA man., who'd fought in the war of independence. I asked if the guy was Irish and my foreman said "No. He's English, but he got fed up with the dirty end of the stick that the Irish were getting and he decided to go over there and lend them a hand."

I was extremely shy and naive in those days, and I'd never heard of oral history. In fact, I don't think it even existed as a recognised discipline that far back, so I never did anything about it.

A few years later, this old bloke's farm was bulldozed to make room for a motorway and his memories of the troubles are now lying in a grave somewhere. Sad.

Some years later I was working in a civil engineering site office, along with a Mexican draughtsman called Eduardo. Eduardo hated General Franco, who at that time was coming to the end of his reign as Spain's only fascist dictator.

When I asked why, he explained that his father had been the Spanish Prime Minister at the time of Franco's coup, and that was why he and the rest of the family had ended up in Mexico. Unfortunately, with work commitments and whatnot, I never got the chance to follow up that conversation. But who knows what historical nuggets might have been uncovered.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Thompson
Date: 25 Mar 15 - 11:57 AM

That farmer might have been one of the Liverpool Lambs, aka George's Lambs, who were staying at Larkfield before the Rising. They were mostly fellows of Irish parentage or nationality who went to Ireland to a) avoid conscription into the butchery of World War I and b) joined up to free Ireland from British occupation.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 25 Mar 15 - 12:22 PM

Thompson. As a native of Merseyside, I'm suprised that I've never come across the Liverpool Lambs before. Could you elucidate further?

I did of course do a Google search, but all that came up was a reference to Larry Lamb. Oh hell.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Mar 15 - 12:32 PM

Tom Barry, may have never taken part in the ester rising, at the time he was being trained by the British Army, IMO he was one of the most important people in the guerilla warfare against Britain.
I would rather have Tom Barry on my side, than people who get excited about the correct spelling of James Connolly.
Tom Barry one of irelands greatest patriots not like the wanker enda kenny


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Thompson
Date: 25 Mar 15 - 12:37 PM

The Liverpool Lambs was the nickname of the lads who came over from Liverpool and other places and were staying in Larkfield (sleeping in the barn and preparing a few little bombs and things for the coming Rising). They stayed there for six weeks or so, then got on the tram with George Plunkett, got off in O'Connell Street, formed up, marched to the GPO and on George's call of "LEFT - into the GPO - Charge!" they charged in, told everyone to get out, broke the windows and sandbagged them to prop their guns, and that was the start of the Rising. I think they may have been the first in; not sure about that, though.
In Jack Plunkett's witness statement to the Bureau of Military History he makes reference to them. (Jack was the youngest of the three Plunkett brothers; he was 18 during the Rising.)


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Thompson
Date: 25 Mar 15 - 01:03 PM

If you look for 'Liverpool' in that Bureau of Military History search you'll find names that will lead you to other names, GSS.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 04:13 AM

This BBC TV programme also questions the idea that Home Rule was advanced at all by those acts of violence.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b075f1f2


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 04:15 AM

"In 1916, at the height of WW1, armed insurgents rose up against the British in Dublin, the empire's second city. Using secret documents, cabinet papers, intelligence reports, military orders, diaries and letters, Michael Portillo pieces together the story of this uprising from the British point of view.

Was Dublin just another battle at a time of war where military justice was immediate and brutal or, by their actions, did the British men who wrote these documents hasten the end of an empire? Did an unlikely band of Irish rebels, led by playwrights and poets, do more to advance the cause of Irish freedom in five days than nationalist politicians had done in the previous 50 years, or did they damage the cause and condemn the island to a history of violence? Michael looks for the answers. This is the story of Ireland's Easter Rising as told by British politicians, soldiers, spies and bureaucrats."


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Thompson
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 09:47 AM

This thread seems to be full of weasel words - "uprising" rather than Rising, "ringleaders" - and of course the ubiquitous "would have" assumptions by telepathic posters who possess time machines leading to alternate universes.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Harry Rivers
Date: 11 Apr 16 - 02:29 AM

The Guardian newspaper, a couple of weeks ago, carried a number of essays by Irish writers on the Easter Rising.

I think Glenn Patterson's reflects my own view; if only I could have put it so beautifully:

"As a rule, I am wary of small numbers of men and women taking up arms in the name of the People, especially when they start invoking God. Yet I like Ireland. I feel at home in every part of it, south as well as north. I like the people, lower case: those born here and the increasing numbers who choose to live here. The thought that any part of what I like might have been brought into being by the women and men who rose on Easter Monday a century ago is, to say the least, paradoxical.

I am reminded of Sherwood Anderson's "The Book of the Grotesque" (I live in Belfast: it's never far from my mind), which describes a world full of beautiful truths to live by and the paradox whereby a person snatching up one of those truths and trying to make it his own becomes a grotesque, and the truth so embraced a falsehood.

There is much that is beautiful in the language of the 1916 Proclamation, and much that is grotesque in what it has been used (and is still being used by some) to justify, although even within Ireland it certainly doesn't have a monopoly on that. We seriously fucked up over the Rising's golden jubilee, or "they" did (I was four, it's one of the last things of which I can truly say I am absolved): the celebrations in the south and, more lethally, the overreaction in the north. I hope this time round all who wish to remember remember, and are allowed to remember, with dignity and magnanimity.

Then maybe once this and the other forthcoming centenaries are over – the clocks have been definitively reset, from 1916 to 2016 (or 2023) – we could all try squeezing our truths a little less tight."

They can all be read here:

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/mar/26/easter-rising-100-years-on-a-terrible-beauty-is-born

Best wishes,
Harry


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: LadyJean
Date: 11 Apr 16 - 08:01 PM

There will be a commemoration of the Easter Rising here in Pittsburgh.
My dad was in Ireland, back in the 30s. He went to a movie one night and was impressed when the entire audience stood and belted their new naitonal anthem.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 14 Apr 16 - 06:47 AM

Why would other countries be comemorating a purely Irish rebellion!?


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Apr 16 - 07:20 AM

Hi, Desi - most of the Irish live outside Ireland, don't they? A huge number of Americans claim Irish ancestry.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Apr 16 - 11:25 AM

Sorry to digress Email not linking Hi, hope your well, Would you do me a favour and send me a good photo of the LP cover of 1070 Scotia Folk, I was never out of the pub then and want to see who I know, I wasn't there that day, nae luck!!! Any other pics too if your wife has any, thank you for taking the time to do that, Cheers Geraldine Kerlin, as I was then, Take Care


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Apr 16 - 11:27 AM

Sorry email- g.baird2@ntlworld.com   Geraldine


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Subject: New Compositions on the 1916 Easter Rising
From: GUEST,Pat 'de Verse' Burke
Date: 15 Apr 16 - 03:39 PM

I've written one myself, 'The Murder of Skeffy', on the killing of pacifist Francis Sheehy Skeffington by Capt. Bowen Colthurst during the Rising. I should be singing it at the 1916 Song Project Concert at Lexicon Library Dún Laoghaire on Fri 22 April. I wasn't one of the original singer/song writers chosen, but I'm privileged and honoured to perform it in my home town of Dún Laoghaire. All the 1916 Song Project nights should be great occasions, so get to one if you can!


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: AmyLove
Date: 15 Apr 16 - 10:28 PM

A link to the Clare songs from the Carroll Mackenzie Collection (lyrics and recordings, among other things) which Jim Carroll mentioned:

Singers and Songs of County Clare from the Carroll Mackenzie Collection


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Subject: Easter Rising (1916 Song Project)
From: Pat deVerse
Date: 16 Apr 16 - 08:34 AM

Just finished watching a few video clips from last night's 1916 Song Project Concert at NLI, Dublin. Excellent songs. I loved Aileen Lambert's song...very moving. Also impressed by Paul O'Reilly's marching ballad. Good old Wexford, they never let us down. One of the few places outside of Dublin who rose at Easter 1916, and the 'Flame of '98' still sparks!

Unfortunately, I couldn't make it last ev. But am looking forward to the next night at Lexicon Dún Laoghaire on April 22.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 16 Apr 16 - 10:41 AM

Pat deVerse" a few video clips from last night's 1916 Song Project "

Would those be private or do you have a www link ?


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Apr 16 - 10:54 AM

One of the few places outside of Dublin who rose at Easter 1916,

How many rose in Dublin?
Dubliners spat on them.
How many Dubliners died because of them?
Any of the leaders ever seek an actual vote?
Only one did. Stood once as a councillor and came last.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Thompson
Date: 16 Apr 16 - 12:11 PM

How many rose in Dublin: around 1,500 armed with Franco-Prussian War era Mausers and some shotguns and handguns and a few homemade grenades, versus 30,000 British soldiers with Enfield rifles, machine guns, artillery and all the weaponry of the largest empire of the time.
Dubliners - some Dubliners - spat on them at the time; less than a month later Dublin had utterly reversed its attitude.
How many Dubliners died because of them: most of the civilians who died were killed by British sniper fire and artillery.
Any of the leaders ever seek an actual vote: James Connolly stood for the council (he was the first, and probably the only person to use election posters in Yiddish. Most of the leaders would not have stood for election to a British parliament; why should they?
However, two years after the Rising, the party that grew out of it swept all other parties away in the 1918 election.
The purpose of the Rising was to hold the city in arms for a week - even three days, on the precedent of the last war, would legally gain those seeking Irish independence a place at the Peace Conference that followed the European war.
The result of the Rising was to pull on a thread that unravelled the British Empire, the largest, most powerful empire that ever existed, which at that time covered one-fifth of the world and ruled over a quarter of the world's people.
One of the leaders of the Rising taught and three of the leaders of the Rising radicalised some of the great revolutionaries of India, who would take their example and free their country from colonisation.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 16 - 12:48 PM

Exactly as Thomson just said.
The opposition to the uprising melted away immediately the British began to execute the leaders in their usually brutish manner.
In 1918, Britain attempted to introduce compulsory conscription in Ireland and totally failed to do so because of the opposition that had built up - had they been successful, the Irish population would have been decimated, leaving the country untenable.
"did they damage the cause and condemn the island to a history of violence?"
Meant to respond to this point earlier.
Any violence that took place following Easter Week and independence can be laid at the door of the British forcing through partition, the deliberate creation of a Protestant State in the North in which the Catholic third minority were second class citizens, politically and economically - the regular Anti-Catholic riots bore witness to who actually caused the violence.
The typically brutal response to peaceful Civil Rights Protests set into motion 'The Troubles' that we all saw and in some cases experienced in the following years.
Britain has never come to terms with their own role in Ireland
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Apr 16 - 02:18 PM

Home rule had already been agreed.
It was not brought forward by one day.
The killing was all for nothing. There could have been a peaceful transition and no civil war.
The fools, the fools.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Apr 16 - 03:40 AM

Home Rule had already been agreed.
All tht killing did not advance it by a single day.
There would have been a peaceful transition, and no civil war saving thousands more Irish lives.

This should just be about the music.
Make your political points below where they can be answered properly


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Thompson
Date: 17 Apr 16 - 04:59 AM

Home Rule wasn't about independence. The Home Rule Act 1914 allowed Ireland to have a kind of playtime parliament (while still sending a few MPs to the British parliament), but every decision could be overruled by the Lord Lieutenant.

There's been a vigorous attempt to conflate Home Rule with independence, but they were not at all the same thing.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Apr 16 - 05:06 AM

"Home Rule had already been agreed."
No it had not - it was nowhere near agreed in the period after the war ended.
If you read your history, you will find the the Home Rule Bill was defeated yet again and in Jully, 1914, King George took it on himself to call a meeting of all the Irish Parliamentarians at Buckingham Palace to see if an alternative should be reached - There was no guarantee that the conclusions would be adhered to.
No attempts were made to push through the Home Rule Bill following the end of the War and the brutality shown by the British both towards the rebels and in letting loose the Black and Tan and Auxie thugs on the Irish people as a whole led to the War of Independence which eventually brought about a treaty of sorts.
The greatest advance to Independence was probably inadvertently the result of Britain's violent response to Irish opposition.
That violence was continued in newly formed Northern Ireland by the new Protestant Government, this time aimed at the Catholic minority.
It continued right up to the 1960s, when it brought about a backlash - leading to the troubles.
You need to listen to what is being said here at present, even by those who weren't fully in support of the Rising - forget Michael Portaloo.
"This should just be about the music."
THis thread is entitled @The Easter Rising" - it was a political and historical event and those of us who wish to are quite entitled to discuss it in those terms
You were quite happy to be part of a political discussion until you painted yourself into a corner.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Apr 16 - 05:46 AM

It's quite often forgotten the first act of military aggression against Home Rule took place at The Curragh Camp in Kildare on 20 March 1914, in sopport of the Northern Ireland Unionists, instigted by Sir Edward Carson - no arrests, no courts martials, no resignations and certainly no executions.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Apr 16 - 06:25 AM

the first act of military aggression against Home Rule took place at The Curragh Camp in Kildare on 20 March 1914, in sopport of the Northern Ireland Unionists, instigted by Sir Edward Carson - no arrests, no courts martials, no resignations and certainly no executions.

What military aggression?

As far as I am aware Army Officers submitting their resignations is not nor ever has been illegal so why should there have been any executions? What would the charge have been?

As for there being no resignations the Secretary of State for War J.E.B. Seely and the CIGS (professional head of the Army) Sir John French were forced to resign as was the Adjutant-General Spencer Ewart - three pretty senior scalps there Jom.

No idea where Thompson gets his figure of 30,000 British troops from, the actual number was 16,000 and at the start in Dublin if his figure of 1,500 volunteers is correct, then they outnumbered the forces available to the crown at the start by about 300 men, and vast bulk of the weaponry available to the greatest empire on earth in 1916 was directed elsewhere. Also Thompson it was the crushing cost of fighting the First World War that sounded the death knell of the British Empire and it was the cost of fighting the Second World War that hammered the nails into the coffin - in both those conflicts the Irish Nationalists sided with Germany (Understandable during WWI, unconscionably during WWII).


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 17 Apr 16 - 06:30 AM

" "This should just be about the music."
JC "THis thread is entitled "The Easter Rising" - it was a political and historical event and those of us who wish to are quite entitled to discuss it in those terms" "

I was going to argue with JC but I reread the OP. It doesn't mention music.
"Apart from Ireland will there any other countries that will be holding commemoration ceremonies for the '16 Rising?"

I'd still prefer to read the politics in BS.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Thompson
Date: 17 Apr 16 - 06:51 AM

Here's a piece about the Curragh Incident. Basically, the officer class of the British Army in Ireland said they would resign rather than fire on Unionists if those Unionists took military action when Home Rule was brought in.

The 30,000 British troops included those rushed in during the Rising, rather than only those present in Ireland at its start. And yes, Teribus you're right about the artillery being needed in France (if, of course, you think that the killing in France was right); Asquith's Liberal government fell in 1915 in a scandal over the lack of artillery shells available in France (the 'Shell Crisis') and he was left heading a cobbled-together coalition dominated by Ulster Unionists. So there was anger in Britain as well as in Ireland over the artillery used to destroy Dublin, though for different reasons.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Apr 16 - 07:24 AM

"I'd still prefer to read the politics in BS."
It was the choice of them in charge to put it in this section, but even so, the logic of your argument is that we can never discus the political aspects of political songs in this section (I see there's another thread active on the subject at present).
I suggest you make a list of all the songs you will never be able to discuss on the music section - hundreds of contemporary songs, songs about strikes past and present,, Jacobite songs, eviction, transportation for poaching rising from the enclosures, songs of mutinies like The Sea Martyrs, Death of Parker, Machine Breakers.....
the list is endless.
If this forum had no BS section, all these hundreds of songs would be no-go areas.
The first earliest songs in the English language are political and are to be found in Thomas Wright's 'The Political Songs of England - from John to Edward II (in English and Latin)
"three pretty senior scalps there Jom."
"J.E.B. Seely"
As General Jack Seely, he led one of the last great cavalry charges in history at the Battle of Moreuil Wood on his war horse Warrior in March 1918
"Spencer Ewart"
He was appointed General Officer Commanding Scottish Command in 1914, a post he held until 1918: he retired in 1920.
"General John French"
We are all aware that he was deptived of taking part in WW1 - what a great loss to the war effort eh?
How sad to have ruined such promising military careers.
Give us a break Terrytoon – I meant real, forced resignations for acts of mutiny, not crowd-pleasing phoney ones.
The Government of the day put the Curragh Mutiny down to "a misunderstanding"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Thompson
Date: 17 Apr 16 - 07:27 AM

To clarify: the Curragh Incident wasn't a mutiny - it was a rebellion - the officers were saying that they would not defend their government from an attack by the Unionists.

Further on the dismantling of the British Empire: of course the deaths of huge numbers of the British ruling class and even huger numbers of its citizens (not to mention its subjects in the colonies; for instance, 1.2 million Arabs fought in the British Army) was part of the reason that the empire ceased to be, but the Rising began a great resistance in its colonies. Not to mention that several of those involved in the Indian revolution, including President VV Giri, were taught by Thomas MacDonagh in University College Dublin, and were influenced by him and by James Connolly and PH Pearse.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Apr 16 - 08:15 AM

If you read your history, you will find the the Home Rule Bill was defeated yet again and in Jully, 1914,

It is you who needs more reading Jim.
The Government of Ireland Act 1914 (4 & 5 Geo. 5 c. 90), also known as the Home Rule Act, and before enactment as the Third Home Rule Bill, was an Act passed by the Parliament of the United Kingdom intended to provide home rule (self-government within the United Kingdom) for Ireland. It was the third such bill introduced by a Liberal government in a 28-year period in response to the Irish Home Rule movement.

The implementation was only postponed because Britain, including Ireland, were embroiled in a desperate war for their very survival and losing.

Compared to your 1500 rebels, over 200 000 Irishmen volunteered for the British Army to fight WW1.
Betrayed and stabbed in the back with weapons supplied by the enemy.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Apr 16 - 09:05 AM

The Curragh incident was the first military action in connection with the Home Rule Bill - both that and the Government reaction to it showed that Ireland would never get Home Rule without meeting military resistance - from the top level.
Had the "betrayal" not taken place Irish youth would have suffered the same fate as British youth on the killing fields of Europe leaving the country devoid of a viable population.
WW! was an Imperial War fought in defence of the same Empire Ireland had spent centuries attempting to free itself from.
Any "support" for it was, as in Britain, an alternative to mass poverty and unemployment and a promise of a short, easy war, pretty uniform and regular meals - those who opposed the rebels did so because they adopted the attitude that the sooner it was over the better - when the facts became known they did a complete about turn - within a couple of months and participated in a War of Independence of their own.
They are all the facts, not just selected ones.
WW1 was never Irish otherwise Britain would have introduced compulsory conscription, as it had in the rest of Britain.
The Church had a massive influence on those who joined up - The Bishop of Dublin led a campaign to support 'Gallant Little Belgium' (I actually saw one of his posters last year in The National Library in Dublin).
As I said, the same con both sides of the Irish Sea.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Apr 16 - 11:25 AM

Irish youth would have suffered the same fate as British youth on the killing fields of Europe

They did. They volunteered in their thousands. 200 000 from a tiny population.

It was not an "imperial war" for Britain and Ireland.
It was to defend Europe and ourselves from an aggressive invader bringing tyranny and slavery.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Apr 16 - 11:33 AM

Any "support" for it was, as in Britain, an alternative to mass poverty and unemployment and a promise of a short, easy war, pretty uniform and regular meals -

Complete rubbish.
In peace time some joined for those reasons.
This mass enlistment was prompted by the German invasion of Belgium and France and the atrocities they committed.

The greatest numbers joined during and after the retreat from Mons when there was no longer any hope of a quick victory, but a real threat of utter defeat.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Apr 16 - 11:38 AM

" A series of retrospective myths have built up that suggest ordinary British and Irish people backed the war because they were deluded, brainwashed and naïvely duped into supporting the conflict. My research shows that this was simply not the case."

"Once the decision to go to war was made on 4th August, the public rallied around what was perceived as a just cause. Their support was very often carefully considered, well-informed, reasoned, and only made once all other options were exhausted. People supported the war, but only because they felt it was the right thing to do in light of the circumstances."
Dr. Catriona Pennel

http://www.exeter.ac.uk/news/featurednews/title_219199_en.html


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Apr 16 - 11:40 AM

"They did. They volunteered in their thousands. 200 000 from a tiny population."
And immediately changed their minds following the uprising.
It was an Imperial war for both Britain and Ireland - Britain even named the war "The Great Imperial War" and still call their museum "The Imperial War Museum" - it was a war between Empires.
Incidentally, far from a Home Rule Bill being agreed, there was the question of partition to be decided.
Originally Asquith proposed a "temporary" partitioning of Ulster later adapted to only six counties - the period had not been decided.
In 1916, following the uprising, he reintroduced the bill without the "temporary" proviso - all the Irish parliamentarians turned it down.
Although Parliament supported the bill, The House of Lords still opposed it by a large majority.
There was no agreement for Home Rule - there never had been and when it did come with the signing of the treaty in 1922 it led to Civil War - s.f.a. to to with The Easter Rising.
Even if there had been agreement Civil War would have been inevitable - only the Unionists wanted partition and the Government went along with that following the Curragh attempted military coup (which was what it was in essence)
There was never support for the war in Ireland and the government was aware of that otherwise they would have introduced compulsory conscription as they did throughout the rest of the British Isles - when they tried, they failed miserably.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: BS: Easter Rising Ireland 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Apr 16 - 02:11 PM

May we continue the non-music discussion here please?

Jim said,
And immediately changed their minds following the uprising.

Not true. They continued to serve loyally.

Incidentally, far from a Home Rule Bill being agreed, there was the question of partition to be decided.

The bill had been passed by parliament. The question of partition was unresolved, but the Dublin bloodbath hardly helped deal with that!

There was no agreement for Home Rule

Yes there was. The bill had passed.

Even if there had been agreement Civil War would have been inevitable - only the Unionists wanted partition

The civil war was not about the partition.

There was never support for the war in Ireland and the government was aware of that otherwise they would have introduced compulsory conscription as they did throughout the rest of the British Isles -

Yes there was support. Over 200,000 volunteers!
No need for conscription.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising Ireland 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Apr 16 - 02:32 PM

"May we continue the non-music discussion here please?"
No we can't Keith - not as far as I'm concerned.
Once again you have scurried behind historians you haven't read and totally ignored the facts as seen and now being widely stated on our media by those who were involved in the form of documentary evidence they have left behind - not historians, but actual participants.
You many stick your Little Britain mind games - I have the facts of the civil war and the war of Independence - you have out-of-context quotes again - you cannot turn on the television here or open a newspaper without being bombarded by it.
Answer the points made - I have no intention of being part of closing yet another thread as you and your historian have just done
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Apr 16 - 04:10 PM

As the music editor, I am going to overrule the decision to close this thread, and I will move the messages from the BS thread here. This will no doubt be a controversial discussion. Please stick to the subject and refrain from personal remarks or attacks. If you disagree with a point of view, refute it with facts and logic - not namecalling. Be aware that an opposing opinion gives your side an opportunity to present its case and provide information that may be of value to us all. This topic is of folkloric value, and forms the context for many important songs. Mods, leave it alone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising Ireland 1916
From: Fergie
Date: 17 Apr 16 - 04:10 PM

Keith you know next to nothing about Irish history, so stop trying to pretend that you do. Your statements are widely inaccurate and you are parroting an interpretation of history that has being cobbled together and peddled by establishment apologists and revisionists since the end of WW1.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: keberoxu
Date: 17 Apr 16 - 05:00 PM

Earlier posts have remarked on a connection between Irish nationalism, and Germany. This connection is a complex one with multiple layers. I am thinking of the sad ending to the career of Dr. Kuno Meyer.

The layer in question here is language, linguistics, literature, lyrics.

Dr. Kuno Meyer was a German born and bred, and ultimately he would die there. But his career took him elsewhere. His studies of languages led him to Dr. Ernst Windisch, a 19th-century German specialist in Middle Irish. I don't know nearly enough about Windisch, nor about Zeuss whose first name I can't recall right now, Zeuss specialized in Old Irish actually. This earlier generation of German scholars became deeply devoted to Gaelic literature. These are the professors who went and looked for the manuscripts scribed in the monasteries by Irish monks, and copied down the Gaelic quatrains in the margins, or the longer poems that filled up larger spaces such as the beloved "Messe ocus Pangur Bán."

These were the authorities in place when a relatively young Douglas Hyde pleaded the case for Gaelic as a language in its own right; he called upon them for support, and their opinions and research overcame the opposition, at least in that particular contest.

Kuno Meyer had a solid career teaching this language and literature in Dublin, and he was branching out to North America as a lecturer, when the Great War began. Because Meyer, somewhat automatically, sided with his native Germany, his career collapsed like a house of cards, because the countries in which his career was based were all opposed to the aggression of the Germans. Suddenly he could no longer teach in Dublin, and Harvard University changed its mind and decided that he did not belong on their faculty.

By the time the Easter Rising took place, Meyer was more or less persona non grata in Ireland and Englsnd. He found himself in North America, lecturing, and hanging on to the remnants of his career in linguistics. After a brief marriage to an American woman, he made his way back to the Continent; while the Ireland that he loved made its destiny without him, he returned to Germany and died in 1917.

Meyer was a scholar of such stature that an entire generation of Irish or Anglo-Irish linguists learned their craft from him, and owed their very educations and careers to professors like him.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Apr 16 - 10:29 PM

Fergie says: Keith you know next to nothing about Irish history, so stop trying to pretend that you do. Your statements are widely inaccurate and you are parroting an interpretation of history that has being cobbled together and peddled by establishment apologists and revisionists since the end of WW1.

I know you can do better than that, Fergie. Please provide historical facts to support what you have to say. Address issues, not posters. Many of us have a lot to learn about this subject. All I know, is what I read in the Leon Uris books. Well, a bit more - but not much.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Apr 16 - 02:08 AM

Well at least we are getting some progress albeit slight.

The Curragh Mutiny is now acknowledged as not being a mutiny at all and is more accurately described historically as the Curragh incident, an incident in which no law (Civil, Military or Criminal) was broken, hence no trials, or executions.

The resignations mentioned were forced resignations from the high offices held not resignations from the Army.

Thompson where does this figure of 1,200,000 Arabs fighting for the British Army come from? I think I remember you bringing this up on another thread in which you also claimed that 500,000 of them were killed. Like your figure of 30,000 British troops being deployed in Ireland to counter the Easter Rising your information is just plain wrong and your figures are fanciful myth.

On India I would direct you towards Niall Ferguson on the subject


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Apr 16 - 02:37 AM

Further progress in as much as the Curragh Incident originally described as being the first military aggression has now been downgraded to military action, which of course is also incorrect as no military action took place at all, what was proposed was no action at all by way of massed resignations from the army.

Joe Offer - Date: 17 Apr 16 - 10:29 PM

Well said Joe, in general that has been needed saying for some time now, I hope heed is taken of it.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Apr 16 - 04:05 AM

Jim,
- I have the facts of the civil war and the war of Independence - you have out-of-context quotes again

Facts like the bill not having been passed?
You were wrong about that.

It is true that I read what historians say about history.
They do the research and write the books.
You are deluded if you believe that you know better.

You were wrong about the naming of the Imperial War Museum.
It was originally called the British War Museum.
The name was changed to acknowledge that much of the fighting was done by Empire not British fighters.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Apr 16 - 04:47 AM

You accuse me of "out of context quotes."
I have only quoted one historian, and I provided a link so that it could be seen in its original full context, exactly as quoted.

You have failed to challenge a single point that I have made.
Many of yours have been shown to be wrong.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Apr 16 - 05:26 AM

The Imperial War Museum was opened in 1920 and was called the Imperial War Museum from 1917.

Facts


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Apr 16 - 06:45 AM

Thanks.
The original name was "The National War Memorial" and not quite as I recalled.
It is a fact that the name "Imperial War Museum" was chosen to acknowledge the contribution of the Empire, and Jim was wrong to claim it as evidence of an imperial war.

The museum's name was changed in November 1917 at the request of the India and Dominions Sub-Committee, who wanted a name that ensured 'India and the Dominions would feel that their part in the War would be permanently commemorated in the centre of the Empire'.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 18 Apr 16 - 06:58 AM

"It was originally called the British War Museum."

Any chance of an acknowledgement that you were mistaken.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 16 - 08:02 AM

"The Curragh Mutiny is now acknowledged as not being a mutiny at all and is more accurately described historically as the Curragh incident,"
Not true - it was an attempt by a number of high ranking officers to influence British policy by refusing to act should they be ordered to do so - mutiny by threat and if it had come to it, mutiny by action tantamount to a military coup on behalf of the Ulster Unionists.
If it had happened during wartime it would have been treasonable and subject to trial and execution if those concerned had been found guilty.
It was described by the Government as "a misunderstanding and largely ignored, which was confirmation, if any were needed, that Home Rule could never be arrived at by peaceful means.
That there was no intention of ratifying the Home Rule Bill, (which was re-introduced and rejected by the Irish Parliamentarians in 1916) was confirmed by the fact that, by the end of 1919 no moves were made to introduce independence, instead, yet more thuggish violence on Britain's part by sending in the Black and Tans and Auxies to beat the Irish into submission.
Any violence that took place subsequently was in reaction to that instigated and carried out by Britain and the Ulster Protestant State, culminating in the viciousness towards the Civil Rights Protests, which led to open warfare.
"The Imperial War Cabinet" was the British Empire's wartime coordinating body. The Imperial War Conferences of 1917 and 1918 were a series of meetings held concurrent with the Imperial War Cabinet to co-ordinate governance of the British Empire during the war and prepare for the post-war situation."
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Apr 16 - 08:25 AM

Rag your Wiki page gives the original name as The National War Museum.
I recalled it as The British War Museum.
Sorry for the slight but irrelevant error.

Jim, the word "imperial" was appropriate because it was not just a British fight. The whole Empire was involved.
Britain was not fighting an "imperial war" as you claim, but was fighting to defend Britain and Europe from an aggressive invader.

Britain was not fighting for territory, only defending.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 18 Apr 16 - 08:43 AM

Question: Just how much territory did Britain acquire post WW1 that pre WW1 had been German or Ottoman territory.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 16 - 09:02 AM

"Jim, the word "imperial" was appropriate because it was not just a British fight"
You've claimed this once before without evidence - you provide none now
It was a war over world domination - doesn't matter who started it - it was Empire defending Empire plain and simple and its excesses led to the eventual collapes of the Imperial system - after how many centuries?
Finished with this.
On to why Britain was all agog to give Ireland independence but never quite got round to it.
To repeat - Icidents such as the constant defeat of Home Rule bills and the Curragh mutiny proved beyond doubt that Ireland would never get Independence without forcibly seizing it - even when it succeeded, the partition that was forced on them led to ongoing oppression, violence and eventually open warfare.
Easter Week was the frst major step towards Independence
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Apr 16 - 10:33 AM

Part of the geographical island of Ireland gained independence.
however they sold their independence to Europe and now appeared to be ruled by Brussels.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 18 Apr 16 - 10:51 AM

Having said that Dick Ireland has done very well out of Europe. Look at your infrastructure for a start.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Apr 16 - 11:31 AM

It was a war over world domination

Not for Britain.
It was just about the invasion, and the war aims were just to halt the invader and push him back to his own borders, freeing the conquered and enslaved peoples.

No domination.
No territorial gain.
Irishmen did not and would not volunteer to expand the British Empire.
They volunteered to fight against a threat to civilisation and democracy including that of Britain and Ireland.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Apr 16 - 12:16 PM

most of the infra structure here was built by the British.
the IRISH Reduced the rail network about the same time as Beeching,the European union has done very little towards improving the rail network, they have provided some road funding, but some of that was ill advised, they would have done better to have spent it on the rail network, they have contributed to destroying a heritage site, read this letter

Madam, - I read in a recent article here in Germany that the M3 motorway being built through the Tara valley will be partly financed by European Union subsidies.
It is a condition for EU member-states which receive subsidies that they undertake not to destroy any heritage in the course of using EU funding. Yet if the M3 motorway proceeds on its planned route it will destroy the recently discovered archaeological site at Lismullin.
This matter was raised in the European Parliament in May by the Irish MEP Proinsias De Rossa, and also by the British MEP Roger Helmer. I believe the issue will also be raised in the future by German MEPs.
During my studies I lived for a period in Ireland, and came to deeply appreciate Irish culture and heritage. I find it so hard to believe that the Irish Government would seek to build a motorway through what has rightly been called the heart of Irish culture. Irish heritage is part of European heritage. Surely European Union money must not be used to destroy what all European visitors to Ireland know is something unique and precious. - Yours, etc,
CHRISTA SPANNBAUER, Holzkirchen, Germany.
Raggytash, your comment is an example of someone who makes occasional visits, but does not really understand what has happened in this country.
I have a lot of criticsms of Europe and their inept petty Imperalistic bureaucracy but I am in favour of staying in, better the devil you know than the deep blue sea that you do not.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 16 - 12:19 PM

"Irishmen did not and would not volunteer to expand the British Empire."
Nope - they went out because they were offered jobs, an easy war and meals every day, which many of them did not have at home.
Expalin the sudden U-turn - from support for Britain to a War of Independence that drove Britain out of Ireland in a matter of months.
Ireland had everey reason to hate Britain in teh shape of a deliberately manipulated Famine ("God's punishment for indolence" according to Sir Charlie") and mass enforced (sail or starve) immigration.
As with every nation, the Irish have their flaws, but they would have to be a nation of masochists to support a nation which did that to them.
The war provided work and wages, as it did for many in Britain - it turned out to be not as easy as they had been led to believe.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Apr 16 - 12:53 PM

Jim Carroll - 18 Apr 16 - 08:02 AM

Lots of "IFs" in all of that Jim - Unfortunately examining the ifs does not reflect either the times or the events - as relevant as the old saying "IF my Aunt had balls She'd be my Uncle".

There was no mutiny, no laws were broken, no offences committed - yet to Mr Carroll it was an act of military aggression for which people should have been tried and executed - his only rational for justifying this is to apply his IFs and present those as if they represented the situation and conditions that prevailed in March 1914.

Still he's back to calling it the Curragh Mutiny so no progress made at all. No point in entering into any "discussion" with Carroll at all.

As for putting up "facts" and backing them up Thompson (Who doesn't think that there ever was an actual "mutiny" at The Curragh) seems to have gone very quiet when his facts are challenged.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 16 - 01:14 PM

"There was no mutiny, no laws were broken,)
'Course here wasn't - it was all a dreadful mistake and the ones that resigned just needed a couple of weeks off!!
Try answering the specific points rather than the old usual denial with a little sprinkle of bullshit.
The Officers informed the Government that they would have no part fighting the Unionists if ordered to doi so - Bad hair day, schoolboy petulance - or what exactly.
It was a case of leading officers refusing to do what they were paid to do for political reasons, simple as that - if not, what exactly was it (or did we all dream it.
Of course, it never got beyond a threat because the occasion did not arise, but it remains what it was, the military attempting to intervene in Government policy - if not an actual mutiny a threatened one for political purposes - hair-splitting - the difference between industrial action and threatened industrial action.
You'll be scrabbling round for typos next.
BBC
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 16 - 01:17 PM

BBC AGAIN
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Apr 16 - 01:37 PM

From the link dealing with the incident Jom we read this:

The 57 officers were not actually guilty of 'mutiny'; they had not disobeyed direct orders of any kind.

So care to tell me why you are calling it a "Mutiny" when it wasn't?


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 16 - 02:08 PM

"So care to tell me why you are calling it a "Mutiny" when it wasn't?"
It is generally known as a mutiny - it was mutinous in its intent and it was an open attempt to interfere in Government policy - the question as to whether it succeeded in changing Governmenyt policy has never been resolved.
Would you mind telling me why you are claiming that what the officers did was not wrong - by both military and civilian law?
Why are you defending Military interference in in Government actions.
I repeat, if it had taken place a few months later, whether it was successful or not, it would have been a treasonable act subject to the death penalty.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 16 - 02:31 PM

Definition of Mutiny
"Mutiny is a criminal conspiracy among a group of people (typically members of the military; or the crew of any ship, even if they are civilians) to openly oppose, change, or overthrow a lawful authority to which they are subject. The term is commonly used for a rebellion among members of the military against their superior officer(s), but can also occasionally refer to any type of rebellion against an authority figure."
Which bit of that did they not do?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: keberoxu
Date: 18 Apr 16 - 02:36 PM

Leon Uris? Really? The author of the pro-Zionist "Exodus"? Surely someone somewhere has done better.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Apr 16 - 02:37 PM

Nope - they went out because they were offered jobs, an easy war and meals every day, which many of them did not have at home.

There was plenty of well paid civilian war work available.
Most joined during and after the retreat when there was no hope of an easy or quick victory, and defeat much more likely.

Expalin the sudden U-turn - from support for Britain to a War of Independence that drove Britain out of Ireland in a matter of months.

The British misjudged the situation and Ireland sympathised with their martyrs.
Britain was not driven out of Ireland in months. Home rule had to wait for the end of the war when it would have happened anyway.
All the bloodshed of the Rising was irrelevant.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Apr 16 - 02:41 PM

Jim, your first BBC link supports my case not yours!

"Irishmen enlisted for the war effort for a variety of reasons. Some, just like their fellows in other warring states, joined up for the perceived justice of the cause. But in Ireland, which in 1914 was deeply divided between nationalist and unionist political groups, more local considerations played an important part for many individuals.

Nationalists, for whom the establishment of an Irish 'home rule' parliament in Dublin had been the principal political aim for most of the 19th century, were committed to the war effort by their leader, John Redmond, in September 1914.

This was on the grounds that the necessary legislation had been passed (though in fact it was suspended for the duration of the war), and that the 'freedom of small nations' (such as Belgium or Serbia) was that of Ireland as well. The plight of gallant, Catholic little Belgium, invaded by a militaristic aggressor, was disadvantageously compared with Ireland, achieving freedom (so Redmond argued) within the British Empire, rather like Canada or Australia."


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Apr 16 - 03:18 PM

Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought the Leon Uris novel Trinity did a good job of telling the history of the troubles in Ireland. And although "Zionism" is not popular today, I think that the Uris book Exodus presented a valid perspective. There are two sides to the discussion in the question of Israel (let's not go there in this thread). Neither side is completely right, nor completely wrong. The same goes for Ireland.

But what's wrong with the novel Trinity and its description of Ireland?

Joe


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Apr 16 - 10:21 PM

Refresh. Keep it civil, folks. If you disagree, provide evidence to the contrary. If all you can say is that you're right and somebody else is wrong, why should anyone believe you, and what does anybody learn from your post?
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 01:21 AM

"Mutiny is a criminal conspiracy among a group of people (typically members of the military; or the crew of any ship, even if they are civilians) to openly oppose, change, or overthrow a lawful authority to which they are subject. The term is commonly used for a rebellion among members of the military against their superior officer(s), but can also occasionally refer to any type of rebellion against an authority figure."

What evidence do you have that there was any CRIMINAL conspiracy? Taking into account that it is perfectly legal for any officer to tender his resignation at any time. Nothing to do with this instance at all but it is also perfectly within the rights of any serving member of the armed forces to disobey any order that they believe to be unlawful.

Where did they openly oppose the Government of the day? Nowhere - the choice they were given was obey or face dismissal from the Army, 57 officers each personally elected to submit their resignations - face saving opportunity for the Army and Government of the day, as neither had to dismiss anybody.

As no actions were ordered and no changes demanded by those who submitted their resignations, the change bit doesn't hold water either.

Who exactly was overthrown by the officers who submitted their resignations? The men who were forced to resign their posts in the aftermath of the incident were forced to resign by their superiors, not by those who submitted their resignation at the Curragh.

So Mr Carroll:
No Military aggression - as you originally claimed
No Mutiny - as both Thompson, numerous articles including the one you posted and myself have stated
No overt action against Home Rule (I also believe that the Irish Home Rule Bill was given Royal Assent on the 18th September 1914).


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 03:31 AM

Joe, I have not read Uris.
Why do you think the book gives a balanced view?

I found this review which questions the objectivity.

"Social commentary, perhaps outright propaganda, is an integral element of this historical presentation. Each of the three factions in the political war is examined, but the native Irishmen obviously have thé sympathy of the author. Uris does manage to a great degree to avoid the depiction of the Irish as the quaint folk of the popular stereotype, but he cannot resist the image of an innocent and poetical people provoked to acts of violence by their greedy and unfeeling neighbors. "
http://www.enotes.com/topics/trinity


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 04:02 AM

"What evidence do you have that there was any CRIMINAL conspiracy? "
You really are claiming that none of this happened and high ranking members of the armed forces did not attempt to force Government policy on Ulster and "The Curragh Mutiny" was a figment of the imagination - aren't you?
Ah well - it takes all sorts!!
It was military aggression though no violence occurred - which nobody, not I, claimed it did.
That you appear to see such behaviour as the role of Her Majesty's Forces says what needs to be says what needs to be said. I think - We'll have our keep our eyes on an armed force capable of influencing Government policy - such things are military dictatorships made of.
"Where did they openly oppose the Government of the day?"
They gave notice that they would refuse to take part in action against Ulster if orders were given.
"The Curragh Mutiny" is part of British/Irish History as is'Bloody Sunday' - despite what the deniers say - go and look it up.
Joe.
Trinity, and its follow up are excellent and enjoyable novels which helped paint a somewhat romaniticised (i.m.o.) picture of life at the time, though they are works of fiction and cannot be relied on as history, nor did they pretend to be - the same with Exodus, of course.
The bit that always sticks in my mind is the effect that the priest's castigating the enjoyment of sex has on the family life of the two main characters - but that's me!
Have never read his follow up, Redemption.
Leon and Jill Uris produced an interesting modern photographic survey of modern Ireland entitled 'Ireland - a Terrible Beauty (1976) - worth looking up if you haven't read it.
For a novelised account of Easter Week, , I thoroughly enjoyed Peter De Rosa's 'Rebels.
One of the best eye-witness-account books on the Uprising is Agony at Easter by Scots/American, Thomas Coffey - a minute-by-minute account made up of interviews with people who were around at the time.
It carries a lovely story of a bunch of Liverpudlians who came across on the boat to join the fight, get off at the North Wall, board a tram-car and ask for "six tickets to the revolution please".
Keith - we've been over all this interminably and got nowhere - we are not going to change each others' minds so let's not **** up another thread - please!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 04:32 AM

Dick, Funny you should mention the N3 motorway. An old friend of mine (Steve Linnane) was Director of Archaeology for the Baronstown excavation prior to the motorway being constructed. If you want to look up his papers on the dig they can be found at:

DIG

Just for the record Steve and I were in the same class at school and drank together for some year after.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 04:34 AM

Typo alert M3 not N3


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 04:48 AM

a very self explanatory post where was that school,Borstal?


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 05:23 AM

Going back to your mention of creating a rail network there are various issues that do not lend themselves to one.

For the most part the population outside the major cities (Dublin, Cork, Galway etc) live in fairly small, even isolated, communities that a rail network could not viably service. In order to commute a decent road network is essential.

Now I know down in West Cork where you reside such a network is long overdue but in other areas of the country numerous by-passes have been built to reduce travelling times. (although the N71 has been upgraded in some parts)

Going to the capital (and major port) has been made easier with the creation a system of motorways that facilitate transport. It is now possible to drive to Galway for instance in about 2 hours. Twenty years ago take would have taken 4 to 5 hours all subsidised by the EU.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 05:25 AM

You really are claiming that none of this happened and high ranking members of the armed forces did not attempt to force Government policy on Ulster and "The Curragh Mutiny" was a figment of the imagination - aren't you?

Not imagination.
Is anyone prepared to quit their job because they disapprove of the work a criminal?
Of course not.
That is all that was being considered.
No crime. No mutiny.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 05:34 AM

"s anyone prepared to quit their job because they disapprove of the work a criminal?"
The Army and the police hold a position of privilege in our society - they rely on the consent that those privileges give them and both are restricted in the actions they are allowed to take - the alternatives are a police or a military state - of course they are not allowed to intervene in Government policy
"But should the government go further and allow troops to enlist in a trade union ... and the right to strike?
It is illegal for a non-civilian member of the armed forces to do either. Britain is not breaching the European convention on human rights which allows for legal exemptions. And the relevant law in the UK is the Queen's Regulations, by which every serviceman and woman is bound."
GUARDIAN
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 07:14 AM

- of course they are not allowed to intervene in Government policy

Of course they are not, and they did not.

They merely considered exercising their perfect right to quit.
Nothing wrong with that.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 07:25 AM

No nothing wrong with that, better to resign than refuse an order.

It's a pity the boys in the trenches didn't have that option.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 07:37 AM

"Of course they are not, and they did not."
They attempted to by threatening to refuse to accept the decision of the Government - leading members of the Army tried to force the Government to change their policy - they interfered with the running of the country - that is wrong, it is illegal and it could have set a horrendous precedent - a armed force with the power to defy or change government policy.
Look Keith - you have opposed the subject o this thread on every step - why not stop tip-toeing around that fact as state your position instead of constantly raising thes bling alleys.
As far as I am concerned, Easter Week was not just a courageous act to free Ireland from British rule - it was an essential act to stop the foot-dragging that had taken place over Home Rule.
Even a few months after the uprising, no agreement had been reached on ratifying the Bill.

"The Act had two amendments enforced by Unionists on 19 July – permanent exclusion and a reduction of Ireland's representation in the Commons. When informed by Lloyd George on 22 July 1916, Redmond accused the government of treachery. This was decisive in sealing the future fortunes of the Home Rule movement. Asquith made a second attempt to implement Home Rule in 1917, with the calling of the Irish Convention chaired by Horace Plunkett. This consisted of Nationalist and Unionist representatives who, by April 1918, only succeeded in agreeing a report with an 'understanding' on recommendations for the establishment of self-government.
The end of the war, in November 1918, was followed in Ireland by the December 1918 general election, the majority of seats being won by the republican separatist Sinn Féin party, then in January 1919 by the Irish War of Independence, so that the Act was never implemented. The future of Home Rule was determined by the Government of Ireland Act 1920. It established Northern Ireland, with a functional government, and Southern Ireland, whose governmental institutions never fully functioned. Southern Ireland, following the Anglo-Irish Treaty, became the Irish Free State."

Easter Week was significant beyond Ireland in that it was a major step in bringing the predatory British Empire crashing in ruins.
It preceded the Russian Revolution by over a year and it inspired many other national liberation movements to stand up and be counted.
I doubt if there are many who would oppose the right of countries to govern themselves nowadays - it was a much-needed revolutionary step.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 08:06 AM

Why the rising was so unpopular, by John Gibney, currently Glasnevin Trust Professor of Public History and Cultural Heritage at Trinity College Dublin..

" some (home rule nationalists) went so far as to view the Rising as an attack on Home Rule as much as the British.
Then there were the views of those who were literally on the ground. Many of the insurgents who fought in 1916 recorded the hostility of the families of serving soldiers across the city (some went so far as to say that their British captors had saved them from angry mobs).
There was a widespread perception (shared by Redmond) that the Volunteers were in cahoots with the Germans; from that point of view, those who fought in the Rising were stabbing other Irishmen – sons, husbands, brothers – in the back, and doing so in relatively safe circumstances at home; as one irate lady on Bridgefoot Street shouted at the young Volunteer Sean McLoughlin, 'it's out in Flanders you should be, you bastards'.
Alongside this was the fact that the Rising had caused massive death and destruction, and disrupted everyday life in the city; Oscar Traynor recalled how he and his fellow Volunteers were accused by one irate Dubliner of being 'starvers of the people'. Hostility to the Rising on these various grounds was inevitable, and surely understandable.
It can't just be blamed on 'jackeens' either, for (some) Dubliners were not the only ones hostile to the Rising. Local authorities and the provincial press across the country condemned it and, as Conor McNamara of NUIG has discovered, in Galway a committee of concerned citizens pledged themselves to supporting the British authorities; the Redmondite Nationalist Volunteers even patrolled Galway City with weapons provided by the British army.
Condemnation of the Rising spread far beyond the city in which the vast bulk of the fighting took place. But such attitudes changed utterly in subsequent weeks and months."
http://www.independent.ie/incoming/just-why-was-the-easter-rising-so-unpopular-34563527.html


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 08:10 AM

- it was an essential act to stop the foot-dragging that had taken place over Home Rule.
Even a few months after the uprising, no agreement had been reached on ratifying the Bill.


There was no foot dragging.
The bill had been passed, and enactment only postponed because of the world war that was raging and going badly.

The Rising achieved nothing. Pointless bloodshed. Home rule was going to happen anyway.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 08:28 AM

Keith, could I suggest you actually read a few books on Irish history instead of relying a cut and pastes which do not allow anyone to make the kind of statements you are coming out with.

Start with Strongbow in 1169/70 then read about the following 747 years. When you have done so you MAY have an insight into the 1916 Rising.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 08:40 AM

Give it a rest Keith; we've already had our warning and you have had your evidence
Finished
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 08:57 AM

Dick,I email my mate about the excavation you referred to. Below is his reply which to my mind answers the concerns put by Christa Spannbauer quiet succinctly:

Hello, Hope all goes well with you.

You are right that I worked on the M3 project in Ireland and very interesting it was too. As regards Lismullen, I did some work on this but the director was Aidan O'Connell who now works at Archer Heritage.ie. The site was published as Harvesting the Stars: An Iron Age Temple at Lismullen (Wordswell) and the book got very good reviews. The whole M3 road project was controversial because of its proximity to The Hill of Tara and there was considerable protest at the time. However the route of the road is not that close and did not impact on the hill itself but only on the wider landscape (I'm not even sure whether you can see the road from the hill). Google earth it and see for yourself. There was European money involved in the project. All of the archaeological work was done to the highest of standards and was closely scrutinised by central government. The standards followed were very high including 100% resolution of all sites (i.e. everything was excavated) whereas in England a sampling strategy is adopted where anything as low as 10% is accepted. I'm not going to outline the full methodology of road archaeology here, but you will find lots of additional information on the NRA.ie website under archaeology. All the final reports used to be on this site but they seem to have gone now. Check out the contents of Seanda for general articles on the M3 and Lismullen in particular. Also Google Stuart Rathbone and see what you get as he entered into the public on-line debate with some energy.

At the end of it a great deal of misinformation was spread by those against the route - most of it wrong.

Hope this helps and a Merry New Year to you and yours

Steve


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 10:15 AM

Rag, I have not relied on any cut and paste.
I provided a link to a complete and recent article on the rising by an eminent Irish historian, with an extract in my post.

What is wrong with that Rag?

Jim, the only warning was to keep the discussion polite, which we have, and not to attack the poster as Rag has just done, but only to challenge what is posted, which Rag has failed to do.

Have a word with him, not me.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 10:21 AM

"im, the only warning was to keep the discussion polite, "
We've finished here - we probably did in 2014 - you failed to make your case then, you are still doing so now.
There really is no point.
If you have a point to make, make it and stop repeating things that have been proven wrong over and over again.
You have just been given exatly what happening in July 1916 and you coose to ignore it
"There was no foot dragging."
We are no cluttering up a decent discussion.
Please stop.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 10:33 AM

Raggytash, none of which backs up your completely inaccurate and incorrect statement about the infra structure in Ireland. the vast majority of the infra structure in ireland was built by the british , this includes the rail network and the canal system,and most of the road system.
the irish pulled up sections of the rail system at the same time as BEECHING ,INCLUDING THE RAIL SYSTEM IN WEST CORK.The EU HAS DONE NOTHING TO REPLACE THE BUTCHERED RAIL SYSTEM.
they have spent a small amount of money on the road system regardless of destroying a national heritage site, often ill advised and badly spent too, for example straightening out roads and destroying bends immediately before 30 mph limits][ example entrance to Ballydehob], encouraging motorists to go faster and yet putting up signs for them to go slower, the result of this is revenue for the garda in speeding fines.
Europe is now collecting our motor tax, and using that money to pay back a debt, no european money is being spent on maintaining our victorian british water mains, or sewer sytem, or repairing massive pot holes on minor and major roads.
Raggy tash your commmnnts are illinformed and inaccurate, europe has done little for an infra structure that was built by the British prior to 1914, NOTHING FOR THE RAILWAYS THE WATER SYSTEM SEWAGE SYSTEM , VERY LITTLE FOR THE CANAL SYSTEM AND NOT MUCH FOR THE ROADS.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 10:50 AM

stop repeating things that have been proven wrong over and over again.

If that is true Jim, state one!

displays a profound ignorance of history.

By the historians Greg?

Heather Jones, an associate professor in international history at the London School of Economics and Political Science.

"The third clear problem involved in commemorating the Rising is the rather thorny fact that the militants who seized Dublin in 1916 had no democratic mandate. The last election before the Rising saw the vast majority of nationalist constituencies elect Home Rule candidates, in support of the campaign of the Irish Parliamentary Party at Westminster for devolved government for Ireland within the United Kingdom. The majority of the nationalist population was satisfied with the passing of the home rule bill in 1912; it was due for implementation pending the end of the first world war. Even within the ranks of republicanism, the Rising was carried out by a small minority. "

"Ultimately, it is the fact that the 1916 Rising represents an endorsement of violence that is deeply problematic for modern Irish sensibilities, and which has been the subject of a great deal of debate in the press. Despite intelligence monitoring, the rebels' separatist violence came out of the blue. It was also extreme: they shot unarmed Catholic Irish policemen without warning. The public discourse around the centenary has increasingly emphasised the fact that the Rising caused considerable civilian casualties: 40 children died in the Easter Rising, a statistic long forgotten until the recent publication of a history by the broadcaster Joe Duffy.[2] In fact, civilians, many of them caught in the crossfire, made up the majority of the 450 rebellion dead, along with 132 soldiers and police and 62 rebels."
http://www.ippr.org/juncture/commemorating-the-rising-history-democracy-and-violence-in-ireland


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 01:24 PM

Yes Hilo I can.

Try "Irish Histories for Dummies" and no I am not being sarcastic.

As an introduction to Irish History it is really not a bad starting point. It will give you much more of an insight than any of the cut and pastes from contributors here.

The book catalogue number is ISBN 0-7645-7040-4


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 01:27 PM

As was the case with The Famine up to the 150th anniversary, there have been in fact very few books specifically about the reasons for the Easter Rising - (plenty of eye-witness accounts and personal experiences), for various reasons, though there is not a history of the 20th century that does not give it pride of place as a great event in the creation of an independent Ireland.
This anniversary is proving the turning point.
Incidentally, as pointed out by Joe Duffy and other, the majority of children who died during Easter week, did so because of indiscriminate British bombardment and crossfire.
It is interesting to note that the youngest soldier to be killed in W.W.1. was aged 14 - he enlisted at 13 - he was from County Waterford, it's apparently OK to die for the Empire, but not for Ireland.
Had the uprising not taken place it would be quite likely that many of the children who died during the fighting might well have reached the age where they could have been conscripted.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 01:48 PM

Canal system?? What century do you think we are living in ?

Canals are a relic of a bygone age, great for taking a holiday on, I've enjoyed cruising on them myself, as a means to transport goods and services ....................... !?!?


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Fergie
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 02:10 PM

I am offering this synopsis of the lead up to the Easter Rising in Dublin in 1916 at Joe Offer's request.
In 1171 Henry II King of England declared himself Lord of Ireland. From that time until the Good Friday agreement was ratified by referenda in 1998 the claims of England/Britain to rule any part of Ireland was never freely conceded by the Irish.
Many, many times during those eight centuries the Irish took up arms to assert their right to self determination. Each insurrection was brutally surpressed and aggressive laws were enacted by the Crown to coerce the Irish into submission. With the failure of the 1798 Rebellion, the Irish parliament was abolished and Ireland was ruled directly from London
With the supression of the Fenian Rising in 1867 some of the leaders began to focus on political agitation rather than armed revolt, and one of the key demands was for Ireland's parliament to be re-established and for Ireland to return to Home Rule.
HOME RULE BILL
After the 1910 British General Election the Irish Parliamentary Party led by John Redmond, held the balance of power in the House of Commons and their price for supporting the Liberals in government was a Home Rule Bill. The Liberals conceded and Home Rule for Ireland was to become law in 1914.
RELIGIOUS DIVIDE
The 1911 census of population for Ireland records that 73% were Catholic and 24% were Protestant and while it would be simplistic and wrong to suggest that all Catholics were for Home Rule and all Protestants against. it would be fair to say. in general. that support for the Home Rule was very high amongst Catholics, but was opposed by the majority of Protestants (especially so in Ulster).
ULSTER VOLUNTEER FORCE
For many Ulster unionists Home Rule was regarded as being tantamount to Rome Rule. Carson and Craig, leaders of the unionists, organised a campaign in opposition to the Bill and called for a volunteer militia force of Orangemen and Unionists pledged to resist Home Rule in arms if necessary. In early 1912 the Ulster Volunteers Force was formed and in short time grew to 100,000 men. It was the avowed aim of this force to resist by every means including armed revolt any attempt by their government to enact Home Rule for Ireland.
CURRAGH MUTINY
In early 1914 intelligence services reported that the UVF were plotting to seize arms and ammunition from the arsenal in Carrickfergus. In March when it became apparent that the government was about to order the army to intervene sixty British Officers at the Curragh Camp (the main base for the British Army in Ireland) threatened to resign their commissions if they were ordered to take action against the UVF. This threat forced the Secretary of State for War, Col Seely, to guarantee that the army would not be used in Ulster. The position that the officers involved were not guilty of mutiny is an argument based on semantics in that it contends that they threatened to resign BEFORE they had received a direct order to act against the UVF.
LARNE GUN-RUNNING
In late April 1914 the UVF smuggled 25,000 rifles and 4 million rounds that they had procurred from the German Empire into Larne. The military and civic authoritys were aware of the landing, but took no action against the gun-runners.

The failure on the parts of the British establishment including; the cabinet, the military high-command, the civil authorities and the police to take any steps to curtail the illegal actions of the UVF was what brought nationalists to the realization that Home Rule would not be won without a fight.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 02:35 PM

Thanks Fergie.
Nothing in that challenges a single thing that I have said.

Neither Fergie, Greg, Rag or Jim have identified any error in anything I have posted, resorting to personal attack instead.

Jim, why do you say that the British fire was indiscriminate?
The heavy civilian casualties resulted from the rebels choosing to fight from heavily populated and overcrowded residential areas like North King Street.
They also put children in harms way by using them as couriers.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 02:43 PM

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 01:48 PM

Canal system?? What century do you think we are living in ?

Canals are a relic of a bygone age, great for taking a holiday on, I've enjoyed cruising on them myself, as a means to transport goods and services ....................... !?!?
you really are displaying you ignorance, canals are one of the most efficient forms of transportation, slow, but efficient as regarding the amount that can be transported in relation to fuel cost.
but let us put that aside for one moment, here are two other arguments why canal infra structure should be maintained for the tourist industry, and as a means of alleviating flooding and diverting water after very heavy rainfall.
however European money has not been used for that nor for railways or any other infra structure, with the exception of a few ill
advised road projects.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 02:53 PM

"Jim, why do you say that the British fire was indiscriminate?
Because it was by all reports - including eye witnesses,. do you have any information that it wasn't?
"The heavy civilian casualties resulted from the rebels choosing to fight from heavily populated and overcrowded residential areas like North King Street."
Where does that come from?
You'll have to drop Joe Duffy a line and let him know
Have you not seen the photographs and film showing the devastation caused by the artillery fire in the centre of Dublin - hardly from rifle fire.
"1916 RISING 19 images Created 18 Nov 2015

The Easter Rising was a rebellion carried out by separatist republican groups demanding Irish independence in April 1916, in the midst of the First World War. Most of the fighting took place in Dublin, where the insurgents seized a number of buildings. The British authorities, fearing the prospect of German involvement in the rebellion, bombarded central Dublin and the rebellion was crushed after six days. Much of Dublin's central commercial districts were destroyed by a combination of artillery, and fires caused by both the British bombardment and looters. These images form a record of the devastation in the immediate aftermath of the rebellion."

Independent Archives
"They also put children in harms way by using them as couriers."
As did the resistance during World War II and every other resistance movement throughout history trying to chagne society.
While Easter week was going on millions of young men were dying in the bloodbath of Europe - not to mention the civilians being slaughtered
Where are you getting all this from Keith?
"Well, Greg, you have not been there and done that."
Have you - you tell us where we can go for information
"You have presented no facts"
Have you?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Fergie
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 03:29 PM

Keith,

You state

"Nothing in that challenges a single thing that I have said.", so I take it that you agree with the statement in my synopsis
"In 1171 Henry II King of England declared himself Lord of Ireland. From that time until the Good Friday agreement was ratified by referenda in 1998 the claims of England/Britain to rule any part of Ireland was never freely conceded by the Irish."
It was Britain's illegal and immoral occupation of Ireland and the aggressive and oppressive subjugation of the Irish people that was the root of the troubles in Ireland and the Irish people had every right to oppose that occupation. They did so in arms in 1916 and their right to do so does not have to be justified to historical revisionists.

Fergus


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 04:25 PM

"However, you have challenged information presented by others."
What information?
Ask them where they get their information?
How about responding to what Fergie has just put up?
"Jim, I have not made any disparaging comments on facts presented by others"
'Fraid you have - and put nothing up yourself other than a blanket blessing for the only two people on this thread who have taken their line.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 09:23 PM

HiLo, I'm tempted to say that if you cannot contribute information to a thread, then you have no business posting or criticizing those who have posted. Arguments about the right or wrong conduct of posters, make no contribution to the discussion.
I said above that I learned most of what I know from the 1976 Leon Uris novel Trinity, and its 1995 sequel Redemption. These novels follow Fergie's outline very closely. Come to think of it, I've read quite a bit more about Irish history, mostly fiction. I suppose I've learned most of the history I know from novels, and I think that's not a bad thing. Keith asks why I thought the Uris novels gave a balanced view, and I'm not sure I would say they are balanced. I'd say they present a valid perspective, but there are many valid perspectives of this issue. The Uris novels presented what some people thought and felt during these momentous events, and they presented these thoughts and feelings very effectively.
The participants in this thread have presented a variety of perspectives. Most of them are valid, although some may not be popular.

Jim says that the Uris novels are romanticized, but I would submit that most of us tend to romanticize the causes we support - and I'm not sure that's a bad thing. It's a matter of believing in our causes so we can bring about improvement, balanced with an understanding of other perspectives so we can learn to work together to accomplish something by peaceful consensus instead of by bitter conflict.

I've read lots and lots of novels by Uris, Michener, Ken Follett, Wouk, and by many others who write in a historical context. I tend to stay awake better reading novels, than I do reading history texts. And I think that novels do a better job of presenting what's in the minds and hearts of participants in historical events.

But no, learning history through novels will never make me a scholar. Greg and I, being Americans, are better off being in a learning mode in a thread like this one.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 02:40 AM

Fergie, I do know that England has been involved in Ireland for centuries.
Nothing in your piece challenges or contradicts anything said by me.

Jim, Artillery was used but was it indiscriminate? Any evidence?
I am shocked that you defend the use of children.
Are you denying that the rebels fought from crowded residential areas like North King's Street?


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 03:04 AM

history is generally written by the victors,or in the case of opposing countries those that consider them selves victors
often the same incident is interpreted differently in different countries here is an example, my nephew started school in england and learned that the english won certain battles against the french, he continued his education in france and learned that according to french historians the french won those same battles.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 03:20 AM

"I would submit that most of us tend to romanticize the causes we support "
I agree entirely Joe - but it doesn't alter the fact that, when we do we tend to deal in our own personal emotions rather than facts.
I'm a sucker for historical novels - have read all the Sansom novels on English history and await the next anxiously, loved the Walter Macken trilogy on the Irish struggle, Liam O'Flaherty's 'Famine' still makes me seethe with anger.... but these are for emotional stimulation, not quotable facts.
That is what I feel about the Uris novels I have read (not just his Irish ones).
I remember presenting some facts about Irish Traveller origins on this forum and being accused of getting them from 'Ireland's Own' - not helpful in a discussion, and certainly not in an argument.
I would have no hesitation in recommending Peter De Rosa's 'Rebels' to anybody who wishes to dip their toe into 'Easter Week' - good history 'factionally' presented with flaws and not grounds for detailed argument.
As enjoyable and generally informative as these books are, they are not history proper; I would no more rely on them for detail than I would rely on Howard Fast's 'Last Frontier' or 'Freedom Road' for your history, though both are among my favourite books.
It's not the job of the novelist to present a 'balanced' picture, but on the other hand, historians can be just as unbalanced in their approach in what the choose to present or ignore, though not quite as unbalanced as some who quote them, (that's not a comment on anybody here, just a general observation on how history is constantly misused to feed agendas).
As I said earlier, there are very few books dealing specifically with Easter Week, not to the depth the subject requires - it's usually included as part of something else.
Hopefully, this anniversary will change that.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 03:43 AM

"Saw a sikin for the first time yesterday in our back garden.
Collared doves, usually four (with the most boring though evocative calls) are regular visitor.
Robin's and wrens nest in the few bushed around the garden.
You can set your clock to the herons heading home each night.
Blue, great and goldfinches abound along with the extremely eccentric wagtails.
Look forward to the swallows (they've been sighted in our neighbouring counties of Galway and Kerry, but not made it to Clare yet).
Was delighted to see a sparrowhawk once perched on a fence about six feet from our window, but it didn't stop me shooing it off (unfortunately, not before it snatched a sparrow)
Autumn will bring the spectacular displays of starlings filling our sky and stopping the traffic.
Not too bad for a part of Ireland with no trees!
We're dealing with a bereavement at present - a hedgehog has crawled onto our pile of cut grass and died (think it's dead - will give it a few days in case it's still hibernating)
Saw (or rather, heard) two of them having it off at the back of the house one night - no shame!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 04:09 AM

How do hedgehogs mate?









Very carefully!


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 04:21 AM

Whoops sorry - went to the wrong thread.
"Artillery was used but was it indiscriminate? Any evidence"
The dozens of statements of eye witness evidence - the massive damage that was done, the weapons used - even the Gunboat Helga firing shells from the Liffey - these can only be used 'indiscriminately' in the hope they might hit their target.
This quote from the 'Irish History on Line'
"Fearghal makes the point that it was the British who were responsible for the atrocities that we know about, such as the killing of 15 civilians on North King Street and the shooting of civilians in Portobello Barracks as well as the indiscriminate use of 'area fire' weapons like artillery and heavy machine guns. But both he and Padraig also make the point that the clumsiness of the British military was as much a product of their shock and disorientation at the Rising as any malice."   
I asked you where you got your "facts' - reply, came there none.
I do not "defend" the use of children - I merely point out that it is a consequence of this type of warfare and was used in wartime France both by French resistance Fighters and Britons parachuted in to support them - and every other conflict involving irregular and guerrilla tactics.
The rebels had no choice in where they fought - it was a desperately unequal battle and they did what they could.
What should they have done - rolled up their sleeves and challenged the army to a head to head in Phoenix Park
The rape, torture murder and mass destruction that took place by British troops in the Black and Tan period is carved into Irish history - that was within five years of the Easter Week Uprising
This town was one of three on this coast that was set fire to and pillaged in revenge for the Rineen Ambush, Lahinch and Ennistimon being the other two - you question this, go look it up.
Virtually the first act carried out by the Tans when they landed was the burning of heavily populated Cork City.
More than 40 business premises, 300 residential properties, City Hall and the Carnegie Library were destroyed by fire. Over £3 million worth of damage (1920 value; €172 millon in today's money) was done, 2,000 were left jobless and many were left homeless.
Now - where did your "facts" come from?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 04:25 AM

how are the wagtails eccentric, jim
how are they unconventional and slightly strange, do your wagtails sing like cuckoos?


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 05:14 AM

"how are they unconventional and slightly strange,"
Have you ever watched them Dick - lovely eccentric birds - always remind me of John Gielgud, can't think why
Sorry - I posted this on the bird thread then inadvertently here.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 07:30 AM

The dozens of statements of eye witness evidence - the massive damage that was done, the weapons used - even the Gunboat Helga firing shells from the Liffey - these can only be used 'indiscriminately' in the hope they might hit their target.

Not true Jim. There is no evidence of indiscriminate fire that I can find. You clearly know of none either.

" Subsequently the Helga II gained an undeserved reputation for playing an essential part in the Rising. (Most of the damage to Dublin's city centre was caused by fire, particularly at premises like the Irish Times warehouse and Hoyte's Druggists and Oil Works, rather than by shelling.)"

"On 25 April 1916 the Helga sailed from Dún Laoghaire to shell Boland's mill, and on the following day fired over the loop line railway bridge at Liberty Hall. In total the Helga fired only 40 rounds during the Rising, "
http://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/tss-helga-ii/

"The log of the 'Helga' is rather succinct: "26 April. Proceeded up River. Stopped near Custom House. Opened fire on 'Liberty Hall' in conjunction with Military. Fired 24 rounds (8.00 am)."

"At the same time, British Army gunners had moved an 18-pounder field gun from Trinity College. They set up by the south quays by Butt Bridge at Tara Street, and proceeded to shell Liberty Hall as well. They had only shrapnel shells. These did not contain high explosive and would have the effect of a glorified but high-velocity cannon-ball."
http://www.theirishstory.com/2016/03/24/the-helga-and-the-shelling-of-liberty-hall/#.VxdkofkrKt8

No suggestion of indiscriminate shelling here either.http://www.rte.ie/centuryireland/index.php/articles/the-easter-rising-and-destruction-of-dublin

"Homes and businesses across the city were damaged by shelling of key rebel garrisons and widespread looting."
http://www.thejournal.ie/british-pathe-footage-dublin-1916-easter-rising-2683266-Mar2016/

Nothing to suggest indiscriminate British fire.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 07:37 AM

I suppose the Irish did all this with their rifles.


Dublin Damage 1916


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 07:42 AM

No Rag.
The rebels fortified buildings, and the British shelled them.
Buildings fell and burned.
If you have any evidence of indiscriminate British fire, produce it.

If you look at and read my links you will find that there was none.
Why not do that?


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 09:06 AM

the indiscriminate use of 'area fire' weapons like artillery and heavy machine guns.

Artillery and machine guns were fired directly at rebel positions.
They were not used as area weapons. (Why no link Jim?)

I asked you where you got your "facts' - reply, came there none.

Do you not use the links I provide?

The rebels had no choice in where they fought -

Rubbish. No-one told them which buildings to occupy and defend.
It was entirely their choice, and they mostly chose residential areas.
They did not change their positions during the rising.

Why have you switched to the "Tans?" We are discussing the Rising. I have made no comment on anything else.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 09:14 AM

This becomes ridiculous
You scoop the net for a few minutes and disprove all the photographic evidence, all the eye-witness accounts accounts and everything that has appeared on our screens over the last few months.
The indiscriminate destruction is both obvious and well confirmed in Irish history and largely unchallenged.
I asked where you get your information (having already made your claims) so you hastily scurry around and come up with - well nothing really.
You've seen the damage that was not done by rifle fire, you know the weapons that can not be used in any way other than indiscriminately.
There is no reason to think the army did not act in any other way than described that is the way the responded to opposition to British rule.
You have been diven the details of the razing of Cork City and to the behaviour of the troops in Clare. - you choose not to comment.
You have attempted to denigrate the centenary we are celebrating here in Ireland with smoke and mirrors and the usual jingoism.
Where are you getting your information on for any of this apart from your lightning visits to the net?
Regarding the Home Rule Treaty, which you claim to have been signed sealed and delivered, I was re-reading Robert Kee's impressive, 'Ourselves Alone', volume three of his trilogy, 'The Green Flag'.
The agreement was that six counties would be partitioned till the end of the war, when a period of one year would be given to arrange for complete unification.
The new agreement, which Redmond and his fellow Parliamentarians rejected was for permanent partition.   
This is how Kee described the state of the Treaty in July, following the Uprising.
The Treaty was nothing like agreed to at the time of The Risisng.   
I have no doubt you will ignore this as you have everything else that has been put up.
Robert Kee is a British Historian who is an acknowledged expert on Irish political history.
Jim Carroll
"Though Carson stuck loyally to his new position, a massive opposition to the whole scheme for putting Home Rule into operation at all was now mounted by the English Conservative Party and many of its leaders inside the coalition cabinet. 'They are all in it, ' Lloyd George wrote disarmingly to Dillon, 'except Balfour, Bonar Law and F. E. Smith. Long has behaved in a specially treacherous manner. He has actually been engaged clandestinely in trying to undermine the influence of Carson in Ulster.... He told them there was no war urgency, no prospect of trouble in America I could not think it possible that any man, least of all one with such pretensions of being an English gentleman, could have acted in such a way. '48
But Lloyd George, without any such pretensions, was hardly acting better and both doubtless were doing what they thought best. Long had many other English gentlemen to support him. Lord Selborne at least resigned from the cabinet at the prospect of having to be a party to the immediate implementation of Home Rule. Bonar Law had to bow before the Conservatives of the Carlton Club, who were unable to give him their support for the proposals. On 11 July Lord Lansdowne, another member of the cabinet, finally forced Lloyd George's hand when he stated in the House of Lords that in his view any proposed alteration to the Act of 1914 would be 'permanent and enduring'. 49"


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 09:30 AM

You have given no eye witness report of indiscriminate fire.
Here is the YMCA Sackville Street.
Notice that the gunners did not just shoot at the building, but at the windows where the rebels fired from.
(first pic)https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=easter+rising+dublin+ymca&espv=2&biw=1280&bih=685&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi3xJemp

Here is the Liberty Hall, shelled by both Helga and 18pdr artillery.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=easter+rising+dublin+liberty+hall&espv=2&biw=1280&bih=685&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKE


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 09:33 AM

"(Why no link Jim?)"
Because I named the source and am not in the habit of making things up, but there you go.
History on line (again)
"Do you not use the links I provide?"
All your "evidence has been an afterthought subsequently dug out to support former claims.
"No-one told them which buildings to occupy and defend."
They were a heavily outnumbered force who knew they were probably doomed to failure - their choice of venue was somewhere that would make te most impact.
Why did British soldiers choose to burn Cork City or Miltown Malbay or Lahinch or Ennistimon - that was a deliberate act of destruction and murder.
I have not "switched to the Tans - I was using the period to compare how the different groups of fighters behaved - both involved the behavior of British soldiers being used to suppress Irish independence and both were aspects of the Irish War of Independence.
You criticise one yet ignore the other - why?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 09:36 AM

I have no doubt you will ignore this as you have everything else that has been put up.

I have made no case about events after the Rising.

My case was that the rising was not wanted by the people, and I have shown that to be true.
My case was that the rising was unnecessary and pointless because home rule had already been agreed.
I showed that was true also.

You have been unable to challenge or contradict either.

I challenged your claim that the British fired indiscriminately.
You have failed to substantiate that claim.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 09:39 AM

their choice of venue was somewhere that would make te most impact.

So you acknowledge the accuracy of my statement, "No-one told them which buildings to occupy and defend."

They chose overcrowded, residential areas with the inevitable consequence of mass casualties.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 09:41 AM

Here's some reading for you Keith about the Black & Tans. You will note in the section marked "Legacy" it refers to the War Crimes of the Black & Tans.

Black & Tans


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 10:14 AM

"My case was that the rising was not wanted by the people"
We have no idea that this was the case - those in Dublin who protested represented a tiny minority of Dubliners.
There were in fact plans for risings to take place elsewhere whih were botched, but Irish peole had been fighting for independence for centuries - the demand was ongoing.
Even those who supported the war did so because they believed it would bring independence - the Robert Kee passage (which you, of course have ignored) proved that this was not the case and they changed their minds when British brutality was demonstrated (no out of sympathy for the martyrs, but as a reaction to Britain with the mask off)
Within a matter of months the country was up in arms fighting for Britain to get out of Ireland.
Yopu respond to the devastation of British mortar fire with a few antiseptic pictures of your own and no comment.
They did not "choose" a residential area - they chose the main building of the main thoroughfare in Dublin city because that was where it would make the most effective statement - It was a demand for independence, not an attempt to kill people or destroy property - they occupied buildings as a gesture.
The indiscriminate destruction has been demonstrated by the photographs and is to be found in the many photographs - a few of which you have been given and choose to ignore.
I think we're finished here, don't you?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: MartinRyan
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 10:34 AM

Not sure why this thread stayed above the line? Surely time for it to head to the home of blindfolded argument?

Regards


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 10:53 AM

I think that I'd like to learn the various perspectives on the Easter Rising. I'm sure there was a variety of opinions among the British and the Irish, and I think it's important for us to understand those perspectives. I think a lot of Americans sing Irish rebel songs without knowing their context. A thread like this should present that context, from all sides - not try to prove which side was right (or which Mudcatter was right).
I'll edit out or move the off-topic posts once this discussion dies down, but I do think it's important for us to have a discussion of the Easter Rising on the centennial of the event. I don't see value in having two threads on this topic, one combative and one non-combative.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 12:10 PM

"I'll edit out or move the off-topic posts once this discussion dies down,"
Finished with this particular spat as far as I'm concerned Joe - sorry to have bogged it down again
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 12:16 PM

I will not discuss anything but the Rising here.
My case is that it was unwanted and unnecessary.

Unwanted.
"Why Was The Easter Rising So Unpopular" by John Gibney, currently Glasnevin Trust Professor of Public History and Cultural Heritage at Trinity College Dublin.

" Many of the insurgents who fought in 1916 recorded the hostility of the families of serving soldiers across the city (some went so far as to say that their British captors had saved them from angry mobs)."

"Alongside this was the fact that the Rising had caused massive death and destruction, and disrupted everyday life in the city; Oscar Traynor recalled how he and his fellow Volunteers were accused by one irate Dubliner of being 'starvers of the people'. Hostility to the Rising on these various grounds was inevitable, and surely understandable"

"Condemnation of the Rising spread far beyond the city in which the vast bulk of the fighting took place."
http://www.independent.ie/incoming/just-why-was-the-easter-rising-so-unpopular-34563527.html

Heather Jones, associate professor in international history at the London School of Economics and Political Science.

"Heather Jones traces how this failed military insurrection against British rule – mounted by a small, unrepresentative minority of Irish republicans – "

"The majority of the nationalist population was satisfied with the passing of the home rule bill in 1912;"

"Even within the ranks of republicanism, the Rising was carried out by a small minority. "
http://www.ippr.org/juncture/commemorating-the-rising-history-democracy-and-violence-in-ireland


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Fergie
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 12:39 PM

Keith,
In response to my last comment you replied "Fergie, I do know that England has been involved in Ireland for centuries.
Nothing in your piece challenges or contradicts anything said by me."

This is what my piece said
"It was Britain's illegal and immoral occupation of Ireland and the aggressive and oppressive subjugation of the Irish people that was the root of the troubles in Ireland and the Irish people had every right to oppose that occupation. They did so in arms in 1916 and their right to do so does not have to be justified to historical revisionists".

Do you agree with this statement?


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: GUEST,Mpdette
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 01:49 PM

No, Keith,

You're incorrect.

If there hadn't been a Rising then you Brits wouldn't have responded so heavy-handedly to it. Executing its leaders, especially a man who could not stand up, was a huge mistake and enhanced the Republican cause more than the Rising itself could ever have done.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 02:08 PM

See you in 2017!

Regards


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 02:39 PM

Fergie,
"It was Britain's illegal and immoral occupation of Ireland and the aggressive and oppressive subjugation of the Irish people that was the root of the troubles in Ireland and the Irish people had every right to oppose that occupation. They did so in arms in 1916 and their right to do so does not have to be justified to historical revisionists".

Do you agree with this statement?


No I do not.
Bad things happened everywhere to everyone hundreds of years ago.
The Irish people wanted home rule but did not feel victims of "aggressive and oppressive subjugation."
The rising was deeply unpopular and unwanted, as I have shown.

Mpdette,
Executing its leaders, especially a man who could not stand up, was a huge mistake and enhanced the Republican cause more than the Rising itself could ever have done.

I agree.
Had they just been locked up they would have continued to be seen as a contemptible joke.
The rising would have been forgotten, and a transition to full home rule would have been peacefully achieved and not one day later.

Thousands of Irish lives spared.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 03:03 PM

"Thousands of Irish lives spared."
Except the ones that would have been forcibly conscripted to fight in W.W.1.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 03:52 PM

Jim, from some angles, it does seem that the 1916 Easter Rising was a waste. To much of the world, it appeared that the Irish had a fair amount of self-determination already, and that they were going to have Home Rule within a very short period of time. The Rising resulted in the execution of the best and brightest of Irish leadership, and that was indeed a tragedy. One could argue that the British had no need to execute those men, and that is true; but one could also argue credibly that the Irish had no need to sacrifice their best leaders. At the very least, it seems that the Easter Rising was poor strategy.

Up above, somebody made an argument that I hadn't heard quite that way before - that the Rising was necessary to stem opposition to Home Rule from within Ireland. There's certainly credibility there - there certainly were some Irish who opposed Home Rule and worked to undermine it.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 05:25 PM

most of the songs are were written from the irish point of view imo quite understandably, very few from the english point of view.
i mean who in their right mind would write a song which went like this, we occupied a country that didnt belong to us,we sent soldiers who were not fighting in the first world war and who were only prepared for trench warfare, not guerilla warfare, who did not know where they were going until they realised they were heading westwards instead of to france, who had no idea they would be fired upon when arriving in dublin, who had no idea there was about to be an easter rising. why not, you ask, because it would show how unprepared and incompetent the glorious british empire was,now do you understand why there were no songs from the british point of view , because it would illustrate how incompetent and unprepared they were, no glory n that is there


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Fergie
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 08:33 PM

Thank you Keith for your straight answer,

Which part of my statement do you not agree with;

1) It was Britain's illegal and immoral occupation of Ireland and the aggressive and oppressive subjugation of the Irish people that was the root of the troubles in Ireland

2) the Irish people had every right to oppose that occupation.

3) They did so in arms in 1916 and their right to do so does not have to be justified to historical revisionists".


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 16 - 03:08 AM

"Jim, from some angles, it does seem that the 1916 Easter Rising was a waste."
Keith has just demonstrated perfectly in his contempt for the Irish people and their achievements why it was not.
Ireland is at present celebrating the major step in achieving independence - it will spend the rest of the year in discussing, examining and celebrating what Keith has just described as "a contemptible joke" - that sums up Britain's attitude to Ireland and to anybody who dared to challenge the Empire's authority
then perfectly and in writing what he did, it sums up the Empire Loyalsts' hatred and contempt of their former subjects now.
Would you accept that The Boston Tea Party of 1771 "a contemptible joke"?
Within three months of the Rising Britain had about turned on the Home Rule Bill and added a clause that would guarantee Ireland a century of division, inequality, unrest and bloodshed which has lasted to the present day - permanent partition.
That's how definite The Home Rule Bill was.
Keith has not responded to that fact.
Had the rising not taken place, Irish youth would have been compulsorily whisked off to be slaughtered on the killing fields of Europe and, given the death toll there, would have been an unsustainable country - we had lost a third of our population to famine and enforced eviction half a century earlier, thanks to British greed and misrule.
Even as late as 1918, Britain tried to introduce enforced conscription - Easter Week had given the politicians the balls to say "no".
I have put up Lloyd George's statement about Home Rule - Keith chooses to ignore it.
If Ireland had "a fair amount of self-determination already", what was the Black and Tan Period about, or the fight for Independence, or the Civil War, or the further half century of struggle against injustice or inequality in the North, another "contemptible joke".
Easter Week not only eventually brought about Independence for Ireland, it set the Empire dominoes falling and was the beginning of the emd of the contemptible British Empire, that's how much of "a contemptible joke" it was.
I'm delighted that Keith finally came out of the closet and said what he said about Ireland and its traditions - long overdue.
I would love to be present if he came over here and told us that we are making fools of ourselves by celebrating "contemptible joke"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Apr 16 - 03:12 AM

Fergie, I disagree with all three.


1) It was Britain's illegal and immoral occupation of Ireland and the aggressive and oppressive subjugation of the Irish people that was the root of the troubles in Ireland


The occupation was not seen as "aggressive and oppressive subjugation."
There was no popular movement against it.
The Irish people were happy with the peaceful progress to home rule.

2) the Irish people had every right to oppose that occupation.

They did have every right to, but they did not oppose it.

3) They did so in arms in 1916 and their right to do so does not have to be justified to historical revisionists".

No they did not. It was a tiny unrepresentative minority with no mandate from the Irish people.

Joe,
The Rising resulted in the execution of the best and brightest of Irish leadership

They were not "Irish leadership."
They had no mandate or support.
Only one had ever sought election, and came last in the ballot.
They were just self appointed hotheads.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Apr 16 - 03:52 AM

Jim,
Except the ones that would have been forcibly conscripted to fight in W.W.1.

You are wrong again!
The conscription bill predated the rising.
There was never going to be conscription in Ireland, rising or no rising.

That did not stop 210 000 Irishmen joining the British Army in WW1.
By comaprison "the IRB (responsible for the rising)probably never exceeded 2,000 members"


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Apr 16 - 03:58 AM

Jim, I only said that the rising was a contemptible joke, not the legitimate struggle for Irish independence.

The fact is that home rule was going to happen anyway.
The rising did nothing to hasten it.
Violence and death for no purpose.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 16 - 04:11 AM

"There was never going to be conscription in Ireland, rising or no rising."
The British attempted to introduce forcible conscription in 1918 - had Easter Week not happened, they would have introduced it earlier - why wouldn't they have.
"That did not stop 210 000 Irishmen joining the British Army in WW1."
And those same people turned around and kicked the world's strongest Empire out on its arse when it displayed its true nature.
I suggest you read this selectively and see why Irishmen joined up (and not just pick the bits that suit you) - it represents what all those who joined that bloodbath did - not the jingoistic claims that it was for the cause of freedom.
You were given six reasons why men (and in some cases boys) enlisted - you ignored them then and you will ignore them now.
http://www.qub.ac.uk/sites/irishhistorylive/IrishHistoryResources/Articlesandlecturesbyourteachingstaff/IrelandandtheFirstWorldWar/
Can't blue clickie it
I take your silence on your contempt for the Irish as confirmation
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 21 Apr 16 - 04:16 AM

It's pretty difficult to put over 700 years of suppression into a post on Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 16 - 04:26 AM

"It's pretty difficult to put over 700 years of suppression into a post on Mudcat."
How stupid do these people think the Irish are - putting teh effort they are norw doing into celebrating A contemptible joke
The jingoists have learned nothing sine the Empire went walkabout - still the superior race with all the answers.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Fergie
Date: 21 Apr 16 - 07:19 AM

Keith thank you for some more straight answers,

I'm not in a position to deal with all you said at this moment, so I'll answer it section by section

You said - The occupation was not seen as "aggressive and oppressive subjugation."

Incorrect - In consequence of the "Land Wars" and the activities of the Land League. Ireland was in the years leading up to the rising the most heavily policed part of Britain, there were armed Police stationed in fortified barracks in almost every village in Ireland. The police had a reputation for brutality and an absolute intolerance of any activity that they considered "seditious". In addition the police were backed up by a system of "justice" that was presided over by establishment JPs, magistrates and judges that would sentence dissenters to punative periods of incarceration solely on the word on any police officer.
Th Dublin Metropolitan Police were hated by the ordinary citizens. the DMP carried batons and swords and patrolled the streets in groups. They delighted in smashing heads at the slighest excuse and many the innocent man was hauled off to spend the night in a cell and was then charged on the word of a DMP and condemned to months in prison. If you want to know how these bullies behaved look up the DMP and it's roll in the 1913 Lockout.
The British Garrisons were also feared and hated, they were brutal in the extreme and fired on innocent, unarmed civilians on many occasions. Read up on the activities of King's Own Scottish Borderers and their role in the event that has come to be known as the Bachelors Walk Massacre in 1914.

The majority of ordinary citizens feared the police and soldiers for good reason. They kept their heads down and submitted to the authorities because they knew what the cost of putting their heads above the parapet would be. They behaved in that fashion precisely because they lived under occupation and were ruled over by a vindictive, aggressive and oppressive regime that deliberatly kept them in subjugation.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Apr 16 - 07:49 AM

Fergie, I think that your interpretation is wrong, and based on propaganda not fact.
If it were true, why was there no outcry or demand for independence?
Why did the IRB never attract more than a fringe membership?
Why did membership and votes for Sinn Fein collapse after 1908? By 1915 they had so little support that they went broke and could not pay their office rent.

Jim,
had Easter Week not happened, they would have introduced it earlier - why wouldn't they have.

Wrong again Jim.
Ireland was excluded from conscription BEFORE the rising.
Sure it was suggested in 1918, but rejected immediately.
There was not even conscription in the British North in WW2!

The rising achieved nothing, and certainly had nothing to do with Irish exemption from conscription.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Apr 16 - 08:00 AM

Fergie, the issues of the Land Wars and Land League were all settled amicably and finally in the 19th Century.
It was not an issue by 1916.

The DMP were an Irish Catholic organisation. Not British.

The Batchelors Walk massacre was not an example of British oppression of the Irish.
The army was called out because German weapons were being smuggled into the country.
It was wrong that they fired on a crowd when they were returning to barracks, but they were not acting on higher orders. It was a heat of the moment thing.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 16 - 08:48 AM

"Ireland was excluded from conscription BEFORE the rising."
And after the rising Briain attempted to introduce compulsory conscription - fact.
"Sure it was suggested in 1918, but rejected immediately."
It was rejected by the Irish politicians who would have accepted it before the Rising - the Rising saved many thousands of young Irish lives - nothing to you maybe.
Blaming the soldiers for the Bachelors Walk massacre is simple abrogation of responsibility, just as blaming tho=e soldiers on the spot during the Bloody Sunday massacre was - the officers, and overall, the Government who put the army there were responsible in both cases - The British Govenment underlined that fact when they apologised for the Derry massacre.
Your behaviour here has demonstrated beyond all doubt why The British Empire was always has hated by the Irish people as it was - describing what Ireland is celebrating at the present time as "A contemptible joke" is beyond belief - having said it, refusing either to defend it or to withdraw it is.... well - word fail.
A question; do you believe that those at present celebrating the Rising, or those who have always cherished the event are simpletons?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 16 - 08:57 AM

! Land Wars and Land League were all settled amicably and finally in the 19th Century."
Not true again.
The official Land War protests lasted until 1911 when the West Meath MP who organised the Cattle Drives called them off, but in fact they continued in parts of Ireland right up to Independence - this County was one of the foremost in those events.
We recorded about half a dozen songs about the events made during the lifetimes of the singers
Go look it up.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Fergie
Date: 21 Apr 16 - 10:06 AM

Keith.

Trying to educate you is like playing handball against a haystack.

You replied "The DMP were an Irish Catholic organisation. Not British."

The DMP = Dublin Metropolitan Police it was the title of the police service that controlled the Dublin area. It was comprised of Catholic and Protestant members and the senior offers were almost exclusively protestant and unionist inclined. I know this because, much to my shame some of my ancestors were members and they were all Church of Ireland and unionist by inclination. Believe me the thought that they were part of "an Irish Catholic organisation" would have made them guffah with mirth.

You also said "Why did the IRB never attract more than a fringe membership?"

Keith any person with a modicum of understand of Irish history would understand why the IRB had a small membership. The Irish Republican Brotherhood (IRB) were a secret society whose membership was controlled by it's leadership. You could not join the IRB, membership was by invitation only.

I trust that you motives in being involved in this discussion are honest, but for somebody who holds such strong opinions on the subject of the 1916 Rising you seem to be almost wilfully ignorant of some of the key organisations involved.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Apr 16 - 10:25 AM

Fergie, The DMP was an unarmed police force modelled exactly on the London MP.
I am sure that neither one behaved worse than the other by our standards.
British police were guilty of the same behaviour towards strikers in the early 20th Century.

The IRB may have been secret but if it was to have any hope of fighting the British out of Ireland, it would need many more than its tiny fringe membership to achieve anything.
But it could not recruit them.
Sinn Fein had the same aims but was not a secret organisation.
It published articles in The United Irishman and stood for elections.
Unfortunately no-one was interested.

Jim, is WIKI wrong on the Land League?
It says that the Irish Land question was resolved in 1903.


"The major land reforms came when Parliament passed laws in 1870, 1881, 1903 and 1909 that enabled most tenant farmers to purchase their lands, and lowered the rents of the others.
[8] From 1870 and as a result of the Land War agitations and the Plan of Campaign of the 1880s, various British governments introduced a series of Irish Land Acts. William O'Brien played a leading role in the 1902 Land Conference to pave the way for the most advanced social legislation in Ireland since the Union, the Wyndham Land Purchase Act of 1903.This Act set the conditions for the break-up of large estates and gradually devolved to rural landholders, and tenants' ownership of the lands. It effectively ended the era of the absentee landlord, finally resolving the Irish Land Question.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_National_Land_League


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Apr 16 - 10:41 AM

House Of Commons 1892.
"The Commissioner of Police reports there are seven superintendents in the Dublin Metropolitan Police, and they are all Roman Catholics. "

"The Commissioner adds that the question of religion does not form any factor in the promotions in the Force. "

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1892/mar/28/dublin-metropolitan-police


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Fergie
Date: 21 Apr 16 - 10:44 AM

Keith,

Your ability to vacillate is remarkable, but not in a good way. Your dismissive attitude is tiresome and I'm done with wasting my time trying to have an honest discussion with somebody that seems unwilling to accept that their understanding of the issues are weak and seems to regard the state of ignorance as a virtue.

I'm out of here.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 16 - 11:29 AM

"t says that the Irish Land question was resolved in 1903."
The Land League was in no way the end of the land disputes which, as I said, continued up to Independence and hangovers of t those disputes continued into The Free State Period.
"The grazier system provoked the growth of the United Irish League and the so-called 'ranch war' of the early twentieth century[63]. Many landlords, particularly in the west and in the midlands, who had favoured the grazier system, once again found their estates under prolonged threat from agrarian agitators. In the post-1903 period, the U.I.L. demanded the break-up and distribution of estates belonging to landlords who were not willing to sell under
the terms of the Wyndham act. There was prolonged agitation on the Ashtown estate in Co Galway, for example,which lasted from around 1905 to 1914[64] . With the outbreak of World War I agitation temporarily abated on most estates as farming profits improved. Land sales under the land acts were suspended without provoking any great opposition. However, when the war ended and economic prosperity waned, smallholders and the landless once again began to clamour for the break-up of estates."
The disputes mentioned above occurred here in Clare, Kerry and parts of Limerick and took the form of rusting the big landlord's cattle, driving them through the towns then freeing them on open land.
You have insulted a large number of people here with your ignorance and arrogance and your habit of hstily scooping up bits you think make your case continues to spoil these discussions.
Yo once said you had read nothing of Irish history and were not interested enough to do so - it shows.
I'm British but my personal associations with Ireland go back to my childhood and my family history with Ireland is centuries old.
I know from personal contact that Fergie's knowledge of the subject is voluminous - far more than mine, yet you still think you know more than we do through your internet raids.
In describing The Rising as you have, vitrually single-handedly placed yourself above all those who are proudly celebrating the events of Easter 1916, reading anw writing about it as making dozens of programmes about it.
I ask again "do you believe that those at present celebrating the Rising, or those who have always cherished the event are simpletons?"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Apr 16 - 12:12 PM

Sorry Fergie, but the fact is that none of your points stand up.
I "dismissed" them only by showing them to be false.
You have been taken in by propaganda in place of hard history.

Jim, I do not claim expertise in Irish history, but have backed everything I say with quotes from acknowledged experts.
Do you claim that you and Fergie know more than the professional historians whose statements refute your views?

Are you claiming that Wiki is wrong in this statement?

"The Ashbourne Act of 1885 started a limited process of allowing tenant farmers buy their freeholds, which was greatly extended following the 1902 Land Conference, by the 1903 Wyndham Land Purchase Act. Augustine Birrell's Act of 1909 allowed for compulsory purchase, and also allowed the purchase and division of untenanted land that was being directly farmed by the owners.

These Acts allowed tenants first to attain extensive property rights on their leaseholdings and then to purchase their land off their landlords via UK government loans and the Land Commission. The 1903 Act gave Irish tenant farmers a government-sponsored right to buy, which is still not available in Britain itself today."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_War


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 16 - 12:35 PM

"Are you claiming that Wiki is wrong in this statement?"
You have just been given the situation of the land wars - did I make them up or are they all propaganda, as Fergie's statements are?
One more time
"The grazier system provoked the growth of the United Irish League and the so-called 'ranch war' of the early twentieth century[63]. Many landlords, particularly in the west and in the midlands, who had favoured the grazier system, once again found their estates under prolonged threat from agrarian agitators. In the post-1903 period, the U.I.L. demanded the break-up and distribution of estates belonging to landlords who were not willing to sell under
the terms of the Wyndham act. There was prolonged agitation on the Ashtown estate in Co Galway, for example,which lasted from around 1905 to 1914[64] . With the outbreak of World War I agitation temporarily abated on most estates as farming profits improved. Land sales under the land acts were suspended without provoking any great opposition. However, when the war ended and economic prosperity waned, smallholders and the landless once again began to clamour for the break-up of estates."
And again, one more time.
"do you believe that those at present celebrating the Rising, or those who have always cherished the event are simpletons?"
Your continued arrogance is beyond belief
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Apr 16 - 12:39 PM

Not just me!
Fr Séamus Murphy SJ is an Irish Jesuit priest who is currently teaching philosophy at Loyola University Chicago.

"On the first day of the Rising, the Volunteers and Irish Citizen Army (ICA) members deliberately killed some civilians and unarmed Dublin Metropolitan Police constables.

They staged the Rising in the most densely populated part of Ireland, even choosing the South Dublin Union, full of sick and elderly like its descendant St James's Hospital, as one place to fight.
There were far more civilian (260) than rebel (82) or combined military and police (142)deaths, and responsibility for their deaths lies primarily with the leaders of the Rising."

"With no authority, the Rising's leaders declared a republic, nominated themselves as its government, and shot anybody in their way.

As is clear from what Pearse, Connolly and Clarke stated at the time, democratic elections were beneath them. They believed that the people did not want an independent republic: they were determined to start a chain of events that would, by political emotional blackmail, compel the Irish people to 'want' it.

Nor did they represent the Volunteers or even the IRB in full. As Pearse himself admitted, they subverted the Volunteers, lying to Eoin MacNeill about their plans. They excluded IRB leaders (like Bulmer Hobson) who did not agree with them. "

"Militarily insignificant, the Rising had no political effect on Britain, strengthened extreme northern unionists, and was politically devastating for the IPP, as Redmond and many others understood at once.

In the Rising, the unelected gunmen defeated the elected representatives. That wrought dreadful long-term damage to Irish political culture, as regards democracy, peace, politics rather than violence, the rule of law, human rights, tolerance and pluralism."
http://www.irishcatholic.ie/article/just-war-no


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 16 - 12:43 PM

A bit more to ignore
"From 1918 to 1920 a major part of the unrest in rural Ireland, as so often in the past, related to land. The purchase and division of estates under the Land Acts had largely ceased during the Great War and emigration was curtailed. Sinn Féin's victory in the 1918 election is likely to have raised expectations; the party agitated on the land question during the 1918 election, with de Valera and Cosgrave in particular campaigning against landlords and large graziers.11 Thousands of farm labourers joined the ITGWU, which launched a land campaign in 1919 aimed at securing better wages and conditions. Strikes were accompanied by cattle running, arson and land occupations. Smallholders, labourers and eleven-month conacre tenants began forcibly to lay claim to land. As Frank Gallagher, at the time publicity officer for the first Dáil, described the situation in his Four Glorious Years (1957):
Farm hungry men do not believe in gentle methods ... When the farmer objected his crops were sometimes burned, his family set upon ... Those who led the taking over of estates did not hesitate to shoot owners who stood in their way.
More often than not, as Gallagher admitted, Protestant-owned land was the target, with ancestral grievances justifying occupations. A Land Settlement Commission established by the Dáil reported that "claims are being based on the assertion that the claimants or their ancestors were formerly in occupation of the property" and that some claims were being "put forward in the hope of intimidating the present occupiers". As one person sent by the Dáil to investigate the situation described it: "…the fever [of agrarian agitation] swept with the fury of a prairie fire over Connacht and portions of the other provinces, sparing neither great ranch nor medium farm and inflicting in its headlong course, sad havoc on man, beast, and property".12
Based on his reading of the Dáil Commission's reports, Diarmaid Ferriter describes many rural areas as on the verge of social anarchy:
Obduracy could be fuelled by long-term sectarian hatred or in many cases abject poverty, while those seeking land frequently organised themselves into ad-hoc committees to orchestrate agitation, or simply to plead for a fair hearing. Many locals deprived of land took it upon themselves to evict Protestant neighbours without recourse to arbitration.13
- See more at: http://www.drb.ie/essays/getting-them-out#sthash.I0YrcOh4.dpuf"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Apr 16 - 05:01 PM

Just to comment, tho committed to neither side, that the venerable Keith'n'Carroll Show has here transmuted into a sort of intellectual game of tennis, with each side serving to the other views of various indubitable authorities, who however start from heterogeneous & irreconcilable attitudes & partis pris (I think that the correct plural)...

This one, as they say, could run & run.......!

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: GUEST,joe at airport
Date: 21 Apr 16 - 07:07 PM

So, are there any facts that we agree upon?
  • Was the British occupation of Ireland legitimate?
    Can we even agree that it was an occupation?
  • Would Britain have granted home rule without the Easter rising?
  • Is Ireland better off because of the Easter rising?

Yes, this discussion has been a bit combative, and we've had to clean up a number of off-topic posts; but I've learned a lot from it. It was my call to keep this thread in the music section since it began her and since so many songs have sprung from the Easter Rising. I know some people think it should be in the BS section, but I can't see how it's the end of the world either way.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Apr 16 - 03:17 AM

"This one, as they say, could run & run.......!"
No it can't Mike - everything has been said and we are apparently down to the unchangeable opinion of a Jesuit Priest - where can we possibly go from here?
Would Britain have GRANTED (now there's a word to consider in post-Empire days) Ireland Home Rule - it still hasn't; six counties still remain as part of the remnants of Empire - a fact that is still the cause of disharmony, bloodshed and death nearly a century after Independence.
If Easter Week was a waste of time (a "contemptible joke" as Keith so eloquently put it), where does that leave the present day Irish people who are putting a great deal of time and effort into celebrating it as Ireland's first major step to freedom - with little more than a sense of humour, it would appear.
We have all been "taken in by propaganda in place of hard history" - a nation in denial - Keith's cut-'n-pastes have proved that beyond any doubt - who are we to argue with The Jesuits?
Must drop a line to the Pres., Michael D,, who just gave a very moving speech on Roger Casement on Banna Strand, poor deluded man!
This has been Post Empire Loyalist jingoism at its very worst - I wonder how Joe and his fellow-Americans would have reacted to 1777 being described as a "contemptible joke" - not well, I imagine.
It would appear that there are those who still have not got over the passing of the Empire.
There is enough here for people to make up their own minds - let's move on eh.
I was particularly impressed with the spirit of friendship and acceptance of this Guardian article - says what should be said nicely, I thought (can't blue-clickie again - must be something I said).
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/25/the-guardian-view-on-the-easter-rising-centenary-irelands-history-lesson-for-britain
Onward and upward.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Apr 16 - 03:50 AM

Points well taken, Jim. Still, I wonder whether the matter was at a point in 1916 where it could have been handled by diplomatic processes instead of by more bloodshed. Would the tactics of Gandhi have been more effective?

But I suppose that Gandhi's tactics came almost half a century later (although he also used them in South Africa earlier).

I guess it boils down to the basic question of pacifism: are the methods of war the most effective way to achieve justice?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Apr 16 - 03:53 AM

Good article, Jim

Clicky here.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Apr 16 - 04:01 AM

BS - despite the Peadar Kearney.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Apr 16 - 04:01 AM

Was the British occupation of Ireland legitimate?

In 1916, Britain was a united kingdom of England, Ireland, Wales and Scotland.
None was occupying any other.

Can we even agree that it was an occupation?

No.

Would Britain have granted home rule without the Easter rising?

It had already granted home rule, postponed only because it was fighting and losing a war for the very existence of Britain, including Ireland, as a free democratic state.

Is Ireland better off because of the Easter rising?

The rising achieved nothing, killed hundreds of innocent civilians, and led to the deaths of a couple of thousand more in the civil war.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Apr 16 - 04:16 AM

Jim, opening sentence of Dave's Article,
"Although it was widely disapproved by Irish opinion at the time, "

Do you still dispute that, which is one of my two points?

Your stuff about land wars is easily shown to be irrelevant to the rising.


"The major land reforms came when Parliament passed laws in 1870, 1881, 1903 and 1909 that enabled most tenant farmers to purchase their lands, and lowered the rents of the others."

" Act of 1903.This Act set the conditions for the break-up of large estates and gradually devolved to rural landholders, and tenants' ownership of the lands. It effectively ended the era of the absentee landlord, finally resolving the Irish Land Question."

"The 1903 Act gave Irish tenant farmers a government-sponsored right to buy, which is still not available in Britain itself today."

All sorted long before the rising.
If it had still been an issue, the rising would not have been an almost exclusively urban event.
There were no tenant farmers in metropolitan Dublin!


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Apr 16 - 04:22 AM

Jim, you accused me of Post Empire Loyalist jingoism.

Fr Séamus Murphy SJ is an Irish Jesuit priest who is currently teaching philosophy at Loyola University Chicago, and holds identical views.

Is he also a post empire loyalist jingoist?
No.
Those views are reasoned and supported by all the historical facts.
You have produced nothing to challenge any of them.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Apr 16 - 04:45 AM

Give the others a chance Keith - all our points have been covered over and over again and we've taken up far too much space n this forum as it is.
Joe
"are the methods of war the most effective way to achieve justice"
I'm not the one to answer that - ask the Kenyans and the people of the Congo or Palestine or India who followed on the heels of Ireland in shedding their blood for independence; or more recently, the Vietnamese - did pacifism work for them - would turning the other cheek change the fact that the Palestinians are gradually being flushed out of existence as a people?
I am not a nationalist, Irish or British and I consider myself an instinctive pacifist, as, I believe, most human beings to be, but I believe we are forced to react to circumstances rather than our own philosophical beliefs.
My father was a pacifist, yet he went off and killed Spaniards for what he believed in.
If I had to choose one of the heroes of Easter Week it would, without hesitation, be Connolly, not because he "died in the chair", but because he wanted to change society and not just its leaders - "neither English nor Irish landlords" I love that.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Apr 16 - 04:51 AM

"BS - despite the Peadar Kearney."
Didn't notice that when I scanned it in Guest.
I occasionally drink in the "Peadar Kearney" in Dublin, when I'm there - they spell it properly and it used to be a nice singing pub for elderly locals.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 22 Apr 16 - 05:00 AM

"Those views are reasoned and supported by all the historical facts."

You are not in possession of ALL the historical facts. Your FACTS are cut and pastes from the Internet. Selective at least. When, and only when, you have read extensively on Irish history from 1170 to the present day will you be in a position to make such a statement.

I too am out of here.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Apr 16 - 05:53 AM

Your FACTS are cut and pastes from the Internet. Selective at least.

Essays and articles by historians who know more than all of us together.

I notice that you still can not identify a single one of my FACTS that you challenge, or produce a single one of your own.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Apr 16 - 06:04 AM

Jim, opening sentence of Dave's Article

Dave's Article??? The article has bugger all to do with me. All I did was provided a clicky to a link to an article that Jim had already provided a link for. That is an historic fact that can be proved by many eminent people...


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Apr 16 - 06:19 AM

"I notice that you still can not identify a single one of my FACTS that you challenge, or produce a single one of your own"
For ***** sake Keith - your 'fact' have been torn to shreds over and over again
The changes and about-turns of the Home Rule Bill - the many reasons Irish (and British) people enlisted - the devastating photographs of indiscriminate shelling - the behavour of the British towards opponents (you won't even respond to the Tans, the fact that the land wars continued till after independence.....
You have ignored all this and continue to chant 'I won' in parrot fashion
Your priest may or may not be a jingoist, but he represents a minority opinion here in Ireland ad it is what it is - an opinion, nothing more.
Your insulting behavior towards the Irish people as a whole and your refusal to either qualify or withdraw those insults marks your case out for what it is - sheer archaic jingoism.
If Ireland would have got Home Rule without Easter Week - why didn't they get it - why was there a civil war and a near century of persecution forced n the Northern Catholics - why wasn't Independence implemented immediately after the war and the six counties added a year later, as the signed treaty stated - none of this took place and still haven't beer ratified?
Now will you go away?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Apr 16 - 06:31 AM

"This one, as they say, could run & run.......!"
No it can't Mike · 0317 AM


....

Oh? seems to me to be having a pretty good go, Jim...!

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Apr 16 - 06:41 AM

What can you do Mike - silence doesn't seem to work
I get a pit pissed off with triumphalism with no basis.
Sorry - I suppose it's much easier to snipe from the sidelines.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Apr 16 - 07:18 AM

Sorry Mike - didn't mean to snap
Troublesome priest, and all that
Jim CaRROLL


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Apr 16 - 08:26 AM

If Ireland would have got Home Rule without Easter Week - why didn't they get it -

They would have. It was already agreed but there was the small matter of WW1 that had to be dealt with first.

FACT.
The Home Rule Act was already passed.
FACT.
Home Rule was assured
FACT.
The Rising had almost no popular support.


The Rising achieved nothing but thousands of unnecessary Irish deaths.

your 'fact' have been torn to shreds over and over again

If that is true, identify a single one.
My case is just that the rising was unnecessary because home rule was already assured, and the people did not support it.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Apr 16 - 09:11 AM

the many reasons Irish (and British) people enlisted

I quoted historians who researched their actual motivation.

the devastating photographs of indiscriminate shelling

There are no such photographs.
The shells were fired directly at the occupied buildings, and at the actual windows from where the rebels were firing.
See the pictures I provided of the Liberty building and YMCA.

Lar Joye, curator of military history at the National Museum of Ireland,
"Most of the damage to Dublin's city centre was caused by fire, particularly at premises like the Irish Times warehouse and Hoyte's Druggists and Oil Works, rather than by shelling."
http://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/tss-helga-ii/


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Apr 16 - 10:43 AM

"Those views are reasoned and supported by all the historical facts."

Absolutely, Professor! - and also supported by all historians (live ones, that is) whose books are available in regular bookshops & etc & etc........

It don't never change, do it?   ;>)


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 22 Apr 16 - 12:14 PM

"The Rising achieved nothing but thousands of unnecessary Irish deaths."

The death toll was hundreds rather than thousands,the majority civilians many of whom were killed by army fire.
The figures come from Wikipedia link below

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_Rising


Almost 500 people were killed in the Easter Rising. About 54% were civilians, 30% were British military and police, and 16% were Irish rebels. More than 2,600 were wounded. Many of the civilians were killed as a result of the British using artillery and heavy machine guns, or mistaking civilians for rebels. Others were caught in the crossfire in a crowded city. The shelling and the fires it caused left parts of inner city Dublin in ruins.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_Rising


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Apr 16 - 12:25 PM

Keith has frequently quoted Fr. Seamus Murphy, S.J. I found an interesting article by Murphy in the Irish Times. It's worth a read:


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Apr 16 - 12:34 PM

Thanks Joe.

Derrick, I was including the civil war.
Earlier today (4.01AM) I acknowledged that the rising had "only" killed hundreds.
I said, "The rising achieved nothing, killed hundreds of innocent civilians, and led to the deaths of a couple of thousand more in the civil war."


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Apr 16 - 12:43 PM

Murphy in Irish Times.

"Far more serious is the attempt of the Rising's leaders, without authority from the living Irish people (as opposed to the imaginary authority of the dead generations), to establish a new state and themselves as its government with power to start a war and execute citizens. That can't be laughed off.
Furthermore, the Rising is not like the Battle of Clontarf (1014), a 'dead' event with no contemporary political relevance: it is the template for the two-headed monster run by the IRA Army Council, and for its feral children, the Real and Continuity IRAs."

"To celebrate the Rising is to celebrate their anti-democratic elitism and bloodlust."


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Apr 16 - 12:53 PM

Jim, we can finish this.
I only argue two points.

The Rising did not have popular support.
The Home Rule Bill had already been passed.

You denied both but they are established, hard, historical facts.

Do you still deny them?
If not, we are done.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Apr 16 - 12:55 PM

!"To celebrate the Rising is to celebrate their anti-democratic elitism and bloodlust.""
The opinion of a Jesuit Priest - a minority of - what exactly?
Had Ireland not risen, Britain would have exercised its right to send
Irish youth to the front.
On the first day of the Somme, a matter of a few weeks of the rising, over 19000 young British men lost their lives and 8,000 were wounded - in one day.
Now that's what I call "bloodlust".
Fr Murphy's Church supported the war calling for "Irishmen to support Catholic Belgium".
Catholic Belgium was responsible for the deaths of 10 million Congolese and the amputation of hands of unnumbered plantation workers
Bloodlust or what?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Apr 16 - 01:10 PM

"
I only argue two points"
WHAT?
Not again!!
You have argued every single aspect of this uprising up to the point of maing out that those celebrating it as gullible morons (racist to say the least)
The Home Rule was stamped to death by the Irish Parliamentarians because it had been altered - you have had the Lloyd George quote.
It was viciously attacked in Parliament by British Tories
It was not actually accepted by Britain until 1922 following a war of Independence and then in a deformed state.   
Each time you repeat this nonsense you confirm the stupidity of your case.
How do you no it had no support - did people carry out a survey to find what the country as a whole thought - where are your figures.
A few Dubliners around the GPO at the end of the Rising protested - many more assisted the rebels throughout the fighting, geiving them shelter and misleading the soldiers.
Many hundreds of Dubliners used the Rising to loot busnesses and shops in the vicinity - in fact the rebels attempted to stop this from happening.   
Within months of the Rising the people totally supported the Rising and mounted the Irish War of Independence.
How exactly do you suggest that the Rebels should have called for support for the Rising - a public ballot maybe?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 03:39 AM

Fergie, where and when did Joe Offer ask you to deliver YOUR definitive History of Ireland in just a few paragraphs? Do you really expect it to accepted as the full story?

Let us have a few of your glaring omissions shall we?

Henry's expansion westwards into Ireland was no different and no less "legal" than the westward expansion of the Celts from central Europe - basically that was how things were done then - you fall into the trap of judging events and mores of a bygone age through 21st century perspectives. You omit to mention Irish raids on England and Wales, were these to be ignored? the "English" did not "invade" Ireland but lesser sons of Norman Knights did to carve out land for themselves - Nothing new in that for "Normans" who branched out from Normandy into the British Isles, down through Italy, on to Sicily and into the middle-east (Aleppo in Syria was a "Norman" city).

As to the various "Irish Rebellions" down through those 800 years if you look into them you will find that they were mainly instigated either by Spain or France who promised much but delivered little - The "Great" Chief O'Neill's rebellion was motivated by pure self-interest, its object was not to win freedom for Ireland but to deliver it to Spain as a colony with O'Neill in the position as Viceroy. Scotland was no different and there were far more Scottish Rebellions than Irish and they came much closer to success, again the foreign power promising "assistance" delivered little or nothing leaving the general population to suffer the consequences - rebellions when they happened tended to coincide with European Wars in which England or Great Britain was involved.

No mention of the collusion of the Nationalists and the Germans between 1914 and 1916, no mention of failed attempts to smuggle arms into Ireland to arm the nationalists in time of war - or should that have been ignored too?

The Royal Navy's intelligence branch by breaking German ciphers (Main reason why the Nationalists Gun running attempts failed) knew that something was about to happen in 1916 and had their advice been taken and had the leaders been arrested then the Easter Rising would never have happened.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 03:56 AM

"I've read quite a bit more about Irish history, mostly fiction. I suppose I've learned most of the history I know from novels, and I think that's not a bad thing." - Joe Offer,

You are right Joe it is not a bad thing - it is absolutely appalling. By what you state above you have read no history at all - instead you have read what undoubtedly are heavily biased STORIES about historical events - whale of a difference, particularly if you are then going to base any serious argument on what is fiction. If you are going to study any historical event you have to look at it from all perspectives, not just that of someone writing a work of fiction. You have to look at those events objectively, history has no romantic aspect.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 04:01 AM

Fergie, that translates as my club is bigger than your shillelagh therefore I win.

It also nicely avoids having to mention all the repressive measures that were put into place over centuries of suppression to prevent the indigenous population from .... lets see ......... owning land, having an education, having a vote, speaking their own language, being able to practice law, even wearing green at one stage together with countless other restrictions, designed to for one purpose and one purpose only, to subjugate the people.

Therefore all the Irish population and all the Irish diaspora must be grossly misinformed and grossly mistaken to be celebrating the centenary of the 1916 rising.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 04:14 AM

"Artillery was used but was it indiscriminate? Any evidence"
The dozens of statements of eye witness evidence - the massive damage that was done, the weapons used - even the Gunboat Helga firing shells from the Liffey - these can only be used 'indiscriminately' in the hope they might hit their target."


Intelligence and reports from the Nationalists led Government Forces and Police present to believe that civilians had been evacuated. There was no clear way of identifying civilians from "Volunteers".

No heavy artillery was deployed no heavy artillery was used. Heaviest gun was the QF 12 pounder on the Helga which was 3" - had they wished to do so the British could have used a Dreadnought or Battle Cruiser with 15" guns to reduce Dublin to rubble, they didn't, the only artillery used were light field pieces and the devastation caused was to clear fields of fire.

This having been my "specialisation" while in the Navy I can tell you with 100% certainty that no naval gunfire is indiscriminate and no shot is fired in the vague hope that it MIGHT hit the target. Indirect naval gunfire is corrected by observers onto target and that is done very rapidly, in Dublin the rebels held an area under full observation by Government forces, each rebel strongpoint could be identified on any city map and from that information the gunnery officer on the Helga would have an initial range and bearing to target - it really is quite a simple exercise in applied mathematics Jom.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 04:41 AM

There is a difference between being indiscriminate and being accurate.

Can you tell us the percentage of your practise artillery firing was accurate:

1. from the first shot

2. overall.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 04:44 AM

3. Would those figures have been achievable in 1916


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 05:00 AM

Yes Rag.
The guns were fired directly, not just at the occupied buildings but at the actual windows the rebels fired from.

Jim,
Had Ireland not risen, Britain would have exercised its right to send
Irish youth to the front.


Nonsense Jim. Ireland was excluded from conscription before the rising.
No shortage of volunteers though.

The Home Rule was stamped to death by the Irish Parliamentarians because it had been altered - you have had the Lloyd George quote.
It was viciously attacked in Parliament by British Tories


More nonsense Jim.
The British parliament passed the act before the rising, and Ireland was quite content with it .
What happened after the rising was the fault of the rising.

The Rising did not have popular support.
The Home Rule Bill had already been passed.

You deny both but they are established, hard, historical facts.
What does that make you Jim?


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 05:30 AM

Of course Keith, that's why incendiary rounds were used. Not that fire regards property you understand, it tends to burn indiscriminately.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 06:25 AM

"Nonsense Jim. Ireland was excluded from conscription before the rising."
Been here-done that Keith.
Britain attempted to introduce compulsory conscription in Ireland in 1918 - what part of that fact do you have a problem with?
Had Ireland not opposed British rule, there would have been no reason whatever that it should have been left out of the bloodbath - why should they have been left out while the rest of British youth was being slaughtered?
"The British parliament passed the act before the rising,"
And altered it in July 1916 to make the partition of the six counties permanent - it was originally intended that these counties (originally the whole of Ulster, but altered when it was realised that this would give the Catholics a majority in the North) would be partitioned until a year after the war ended.
Even the Parliamentary Irish rejected the re-written treaty - Redmond described it as "a betrayal"
The Republicans who took part in the Rising did so because they realised that Britain had no intention of ratifying any treaty that did not meet its own interests.
You have been given all this before, what part of this do you have problems with; if none, why are you raising it again and again and again.....?
Britain was finally forced to concede a form of Independence, at the threat of an alternative of "a signature or war", which lead to immediate Civil War in the 26 Counties, built in financial, political and land-owning injustice, inequality and hardship for the Catholic third of the six counties, and a near-century of unrest and bloodshed.
What problems do you have with any of this?
The Rising did not have the support of those in the immediately vicinity, (I told you this years ago), but there is no indication whatever of how the rest of Ireland felt - they were never asked.
It doesn't matter anyway - within a matter of months the Rebels had the complete support of the Irish people, a support which led to a full-scale war of independence which ended overall rule in Ireland by the wealthiest and most powerful Empire the world has known being kicked out ignominiously by poorly armed irregular fighters.
The Rising has since been considered the turning-point in Irish history by the Irish people as a whole.
You, who have stated you know nothing of Irish history and have never read a book on the subject, have taken onto yourself to describe the Irish people as a whole as gullible and misled in their beliefs and written-off that fully accepted Irish turning point with contempt - what does that make you Keith?
You said earlier that "we can finish this."
Your stated contempt for the Irish people and their knowledge of their own history wil never be "finished" until you withdraw your appalling statement or qualify it - it verges on racism to suggest that an entire nation is gullible enough to have been misled by propaganda on its own history and that you, with your declared ingnorance and disinterest, know more than they do.
If anything, your stated contempt has been written into the history of this forum in your own words.
"Fergie, where and when did Joe Offer ask you to deliver YOUR definitive History of Ireland in just a few paragraphs?"
And where did anybody ask you to sum up a over a millennium of Irish history in a couple of sentences, particularly in your as usual talking-down-to tone?
Your points might just be better made if they weren't delivers in such a contemptuous tone (in the new spirit of not insulting people, which you have regularly complained about)
To compare Henry VIII's forcible re-conquest of Ireland to the tribal movements of the Bronze Age is risible, to say the least.
If it was "legal" it was so because the laws of the day were made by a monarch who believed himself appointed by God and who took it on himself to torture and burn religious opponents in order to have his marriage annulled.
British rule has been maintained in Ireland ever since by force of arms, massacres and open oppression - all perfectly "legal" of course.
Your "naval experience apparently makes you an "expert" on the type of weaponry available in 1916 - sure it does!!
In which case, all the destruction that took place must have been caused by rifle fire - risibility appears to be your 'thing' today!
The Irish did not "collude" with the Germans - they took the weapons that the Germans offered - no collusion - no offer of support for Germany.
The Russian people did exactly the same at the time of their revolution.
If you don't know the facts of the situation, please don't hestate to ask.
Joe's point is far from "absolutely appalling" - many people's knowledge of Ireland come from reading such novels, most people's interests don't even stretch that far - your own arguments don't exactly leave much of an impression of study or understanding of the subject.
I assume that, by your description of those novels as "biased" you have read them yourself - or is this just another plucked-out-of-the-air conclusion?
Uris''s novel (only read the one) is actually fairly balanced as such writings go - he did a similar job on Israel, though there, he tended to be more openly partisan - no harm in that.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 06:41 AM

Britain attempted to introduce compulsory conscription in Ireland in 1918 - what part of that fact do you have a problem with?

It was passed in April 1918 and would have taken months to implement.
By June 1918 the tide had turned and American troops were pouring in so there was no need to conscript a single Irishman.
Casualties were very light in the final months of the war anyway.

Conscription for the rest of Britain was passed before the rising in March 1916, and Ireland was excluded.

The rising had no bearing on conscription in Ireland.
It would have been opposed in Ireland anyway.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 06:51 AM

No one seriously interested in history gets their knowledge of history from novels. " many people's knowledge of Ireland come from reading such novels" . On what basis do you make that claim Jim. and then there is your mention of bias in novels and suggesting that books could only be judged if one had actually read them. Fair point Jim, then you accuse Uris of being " more openly partisan in his novel on Israel , even though you have not read it. odd logic that.
I have tried ( twice deleted) to make the   point that there is a difference between popular narrative and history. historical novelists often deal only in popular narrative, Uris , and yes I have read him, does this,. Uris is neither a very good writer or a very good historian, so learning history from him is a dubious exercise at best and , at worst, an intellectually lazy way of attempting to acquire knowledge.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 06:52 AM

"It was passed in April 1918 and would have taken months to implement."
It shows without doubt that the willingness to sacrifice Irish lives was always present and it most would not have taken months to implement - Ireland would have been subject to the emergency laws operating in wartime.
This it one tiny aspect of what I have just written and I have no intention of allowing you to divert this discussion from what I wrote.
I suggest that you might start with your racist contempt for the Irish people and why you appear to believe yourself to be more knowledgeable than they are on their own history - then we can nit-pick
Jim Carroll
.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 07:17 AM

Jim, I love Ireland and all things Irish, and have some lovely Irish people married into my family.
Your accusation of racism is a disgusting personal attack.
Please just address what I actually say instead of making up lies about me as a person.

Rag, the use of incendiary shells in Dublin is disputed.

"there were no incendiary shells used in Dublin in 1916 contrary to popular belief. "
http://conflictandthecity.ie/abstract/dublin-fire-brigade-rising-revolution-2/

"In the folklore of the Easter Rising, the Helga is said to have brought about the destruction of the city, raining incendiary shells down on the rebels from her fine vantage point on the River Liffey. In reality, there were no incendiary shells (they hadn't been utilised anywhere by April 1916), and the Helga fired only forty shells during the course of the rebellion. "
https://comeheretome.com/2016/03/30/the-day-the-helga-sank/


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 07:38 AM

"No one seriously interested in history gets their knowledge of history from novels."
Joe never claimed to be seriously interested and is no different from the vast majority of British, or, I suspect, America people who read little o the subject but who are periferably interested in the subject and get their understanding from various sources, in America's case, quite often from personal family experiences.
As far as this topic is concerned, as I have pointed out, up to now there has been little published and readily available specifically dedicated to it - the case was true of the Famine up to the 150th anniversary of the event.
Uris is an excellent novelist and recognised as such - I would need a little more evidence that he was not a good historian - many novelists are because of their research into detail.
He uses Irish history as a background for storytelling, whereas "Peter De Rosa" uses a storytelling technique to recount actual historical events.
For about a century there was only one substantial work on the Great Irish Famine - written by an Englishwoman, yet there were numerous novels, many giving an extremely vivid picture of the time, which filled in the gap.
Liam O'Flahert's 'Famine' is probably the best of these and its effect was life-changing to many people - a novel.
Reading Uris is certainly not a "lazy way" or learning, especially when there was so little else, though it may be a silly way to try to become an expert, which Joe never claimed to be.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 07:59 AM

More on shells.
Michael Barry.
"The 'Helga' fired 24 rounds from its 12-pounder deck gun. These were high-explosive shells, i.e. which explode on impact. One account tells that the first shell hit the bridge.

At the same time, British Army gunners had moved an 18-pounder field gun from Trinity College. They set up by the south quays by Butt Bridge at Tara Street, and proceeded to shell Liberty Hall as well. They (army gunners)had only shrapnel shells. These did not contain high explosive and would have the effect of a glorified but high-velocity cannon-ball."

http://www.theirishstory.com/2016/03/24/the-helga-and-the-shelling-of-liberty-hall/#.VxthtfkrKt-

Author and historian Michael B. Barry studied in Trinity College, Dublin.
Michael has written several books including 'Victorian Dublin Revealed' and 'The Green Divide, an Illustrated History of the Irish Civil War'. His recent book 'Courage Boys, We are Winning, an Illustrated History of the 1916 Rising' is a best seller. It has been described in the press as the best illustrated book on the 1916 Rising, and has gone into reprint.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 08:09 AM

You really are not going to respond to any of the points made, are you
Why should anybody take seriously a self-confessed disinterested ignoramous who believes that anybody who disagrees with him is a "gullible, propaganda-deluded moron?
Not this gp-dm certainly.
Come back when you have something Keith.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 08:16 AM

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm how did all those fires start then, must have been pyromaniacs about eh Keith?


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 08:51 AM

Jim , you missed the point. Also, I am left to wonder how you know how "the Vast majority" of people obtain historical knowledge. I am not sure who recognizes Uris as an "excellent" novelists, but I will take your unsubstantiated word for it. Many others, of course, would disagree. I would suggest that you read more than one of his books, then read some history and see where he goes off the rails a bit. You seem to have a very superficial knowledge of him. Do read him , then pass judgement.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 09:03 AM

" "the Vast majority" of people obtain historical knowledge"
It was never taught in British schools - may have been different in the U.S.
The subject is patently a dark area outside Ireland - what other sources are there?
The ignorance of Ireland was aptly demonstrated throughout the 'Troubles' in Britain - even the two magnificent series on our televisions largely skipped over the rising - the U.T.V. one not even that.
The British public's view of Ireland, from my experience in two cities (I don't count my native Liverpool) tends to be at the Bernard Manning level, generated by at least a century of hatred propaganda.
Have read most of Uris's novels, but mine is only an opinion, as is yours.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 09:07 AM

"Most of the damage to Dublin's city centre was caused by fire, particularly at premises like the Irish Times warehouse and Hoyte's Druggists and Oil Works, rather than by shelling." Your quote Keith, so tell me how all these fires started.

Then you can tell me about the Imperial War Museum which you have avoided. then you can tell me about the Black & Tans which you have avoided, then you can tell me about the incendiary shells that were used in 1915 using Thermite that you maintain were not used.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 09:13 AM

History does not have to be taught in schools in order for people to have a curiosity and a knowledge of it. I think you underestimate people Jim. I am not suggesting that everyone is an ardent student of history, Irish or otherwise but I do know that people who are genuinely interested in a subject read widely and thus inform themselves.
I thought you mentioned in an earlier post that you had read only one of his novels, hence my reluctance to give credence to your views of him. I must have misunderstood you.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 09:46 AM

"I think you underestimate people Jim"
As someone of Irish extraction who lived in London throughout 'The Troubles' - I think I do not, but there again, that is my personal experience, yours may be different - be happy to consider it if you put it up.
On several occasions I experienced the prejudice towards the Irish - the 'T'ick Paddy' image being among the most common.
It was beautifully summed up for me by a customer when she told me, "we have Irish neighbors so we always have to check under our car before we turn the engine on".
There's a wonderful book - may still be available, entitled, 'The Same Old Story', a history of prejudice towards the Irish - quite horrifying
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 10:04 AM

RAGGYTASH some info on the black and tans January 1920, the British government started advertising in British cities for men willing to "face a rough and dangerous task", helping to boost the ranks of the Royal Irish Constabulary (RIC) in policing an increasingly anti-British Ireland. There was no shortage of recruits, many of them First World War army veterans, and by November 1921 about 9,500 men had joined. This sudden influx of men led to a shortage of RIC uniforms, and the new recruits were issued with khaki army uniforms (usually only trousers) and dark green RIC or blue British police surplus tunics, caps and belts. This mixture gave rise to their nickname, the Black and Tans (in Irish, na Dúchrónaigh), from the name of a famous pack of foxhounds from Limerick, the Scarteen Black and Tans, whose colours were and are similar. The name stuck even after the men received full RIC uniforms.

The new recruits received three months' hurried training, and were rapidly posted to RIC barracks, mostly in Dublin, Munster and eastern Connacht. The first men arrived on 25 March 1920. The government also raised another unit, the Auxiliary Division of the constabulary, known as the Auxiliaries or Auxies. This group was made up of ex-army officers. The Black and Tans acted with the Auxiliaries in the government's attempts to break the IRA.

CONDUCT IN IRELAND
Members of the Black and Tans were paid the relatively good wage of 10 shillings a day plus full board and lodging. With minimal police training, their main role was to strengthen the military might of police posts, where they functioned as sentries, guards, escorts for government agents, reinforcement to the regular police, and crowd control, and mounted a determined counter-insurgency campaign. The Black and Tans and the Auxies became known as Tudor's Toughs after the police commander, Major-General Sir Henry Hugh Tudor. They were viewed by Republicans as an army of occupation because of these duties. They soon gained a reputation for brutality, as the RIC campaign against the IRA and Sinn Féin members was stepped up and police reprisals for IRA attacks were condoned by the government.

Constable Alexander Will, from Forfar in Scotland, was the first Black and Tan to die in the conflict, during an IRA attack on the RIC barracks in Rathmore, County Kerry, on 11 July 1920.

The Black and Tans were not subject to strict discipline in their early months in Ireland and as a result, the deaths of Black and Tans at the hands of the IRA in 1920 were often repaid with arbitrary reprisals against the civilian population. In the summer of 1920, the Black and Tans burned and sacked many small towns and villages in Ireland, beginning with Tuam in County Galway in July 1920 and also including Trim, Balbriggan, Thurles and Templemore amongst many others. In November 1920, the Tans "besieged" Tralee in revenge for the IRA abduction and killing of two local RIC men. They closed all the businesses in the town and let no food in for a week. In addition they shot dead three local people. On 14 November, the Tans abducted and murdered a Roman Catholic priest, Fr Michael Griffin, in Galway. His body was found in a bog in Barna a week later. Finally, the Black and Tans sacked Cork city, on the night of 11 December 1920, the centre of which was burned out.

In January 1921, the British Labour Commission produced a report on the situation in Ireland which was highly critical of the government's security policy. It said the government, in forming the Black and Tans, had "liberated forces which it is not at present able to dominate". However since 29 December 1920, the British government had sanctioned "official reprisals" in Ireland — usually meaning burning property of IRA men and their suspected sympathisers. Taken together with an increased emphasis on discipline in the RIC, this helped to curb the random atrocities the Black and Tans committed since March 1920 for the remainder of the war, if only because reprisals were now directed from above rather than being the result of a spontaneous desire for revenge. (see also Chronology of the Irish War of Independence).

However, many of the atrocities popularly attributed to the Black and Tans were probably committed by the far more brutal Auxiliary Division; some were committed by Irish RIC men. For instance, Tomás Mac Curtain, the mayor of Cork, was assassinated in March 1920 by local RIC men and the massacre of 13 civilians at Croke Park on Bloody Sunday was also carried out by the RIC although a small detachment of Auxiliaries were also present. Moreover, the regular British Army also committed atrocities, burning the towns of Mallow and Fermoy for example. However most Republicans did not make a distinction, and "Black and Tans" was often used as a catch-all term for all police and army groups.

The actions of the Black and Tans alienated public opinion in both Ireland and Britain. Their violent tactics encouraged both sides to move towards a peaceful resolution. Edward Wood MP, a future Foreign Secretary, rejected force and urged the British government to offer the Irish an offer "conceived on the most generous lines". Sir John Simon MP, another future Foreign Secretary, was also horrified at the tactics being used. Lionel Curtis, writing in the imperialist journal The Round Table, wrote: "If the British Commonwealth can only be preserved by such means, it would become a negation of the principle for which it has stood". The King, senior Anglican bishops, MPs from the Liberal and Labour parties, Oswald Mosley, Jan Smuts, the Trades Union Congress and parts of the press were increasingly critical of the actions of the Black and Tans. Mahatma Gandhi said of the British peace offer: "It is not fear of losing more lives that has compelled a reluctant offer from England but it is the shame of any further imposition of agony upon a people that loves liberty above everything else".

About 7,000 Black and Tans served in Ireland in 1920-22. More than one-third of them died or left the service before they were disbanded along with the rest of the RIC in 1922, an extremely high wastage rate, and well over half received government pensions. A total of 404 members of the Royal Irish Constabulary died in the conflict and more than 600 were wounded but it is not clear how many of these were pre-war RIC men and how many were Black and Tans or Auxiliaries.

Those who returned to civilian life sometimes had problems re-integrating. At least two former Black and Tans were hanged for murder in Britain and another wanted for murder committed suicide before the police could arrest him.

LEGACY
Due to the ferocity of the Tans' behaviour in Ireland and the atrocities committed, feelings continue to run high regarding their actions. "Black and Tan" or "Tan" remains a pejorative term for British in Ireland, and they are still despised by many in Ireland. One of the most famous Irish Republican songs is Dominic Behan's "Come out Ye Black and Tans." The Irish War of Independence is sometimes referred to as the "Tan War" or "Black-and-Tan War." This term was preferred by those who fought on the Anti-Treaty side in the Irish Civil War. The "Cogadh na Saoirse" medal, which was awarded to IRA Volunteers after 1941, bears a ribbon with two vertical stripes in black and tan.

QUOTE
If a police barracks is burned or if the barracks already occupied is not suitable, then the best house in the locality is to be commandeered, the occupants thrown into the gutter. Let them die there—the more the merrier.

Should the order ("Hands Up") not be immediately obeyed, shoot and shoot with effect. If the persons approaching (a patrol) carry their hands in their pockets, or are in any way suspicious-looking, shoot them down. You may make mistakes occasionally and innocent persons may be shot, but that cannot be helped, and you are bound to get the right parties some time. The more you shoot, the better I will like you, and I assure you no policeman will get into trouble for shooting any man.
—Lt. Col. Smyth, June 1920.
the black and tans were not in existence at the time of the easter rising in 1916


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 10:16 AM

"the black and tans were not in existence at the time of the easter rising in 1916"
The Black and Tans were formed from soldiers who had found themselves unable to settle following WW1 - many of them had been traumatised by their experiences and in normal circumstances, would not have been considered fit for duty.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 10:41 AM

"Irish, and have some lovely Irish people married into my family"
He forgot to mention that they are Northern Protestants who have described some of the Extremely belligerent Orange Marches as "a pleasant day out".
Only part of the information again, I'm afraid.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 11:06 AM

Thanks Dick, A pretty good resume. I already know what a set of complete bastards the Black & Tans were. I am aware of their burn, plunder and murder approach to places like Clifden. Perhaps Keith will read the post you placed and consider for once the brutality of the British towards the Irish. He seems to think most of it is made up and that both groups rubbed along together quite well, all rather jolly.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 12:20 PM

Jim, my own son is married to a Southern Catholic girl, and their son is being brought up as a Catholic.

I thought I had answered all points relevant to the Rising.
Please say which you are referring to.

Rag,
The quote you gave was not me.
It was Lar Joye, curator of military history at the National Museum of Ireland.
I think he knows more than we do.
Then you can tell me about the Imperial War Museum which you have avoided.
What do you want to know?
then you can tell me about the Black & Tans which you have avoided,
No. This is about the rising.

then you can tell me about the incendiary shells that were used in 1915 using Thermite that you maintain were not used.

I did not say they were not used. I said it was disputed, and quoted three historians who said they were not.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 12:29 PM

"First use of Thermite shells
2 July 1916. Thermite is an incendiary; thermite shells were designed to set a target ablaze, and were fired by field artillery. They were first used by the gunners of 30th Division, firing on Bernafay Wood on the Somme, on 2 July 1916."
http://www.1914-1918.net/firstsnlasts.htm


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 12:50 PM

"Jim, my own son is married to a Southern Catholic girl, and their son is being brought up as a Catholic."
You mentioned them in relation to the sectarian marches whiuch you described as "pleasant days out" - I assumed that came from them, but if it was all your own work, fine.
Doedsn't make too much difference to your disparaging of the Irish people though - you said what yo said and you have yet to withdraw or apologise for it and explain it.
I presume your daughter-in- law ifds one of the deluded ones, or is she special?
You have answered none and you know it - you continue to ignore all the points and repeat your nonsense.
You have shot your bolt on this one Keith, you obviously have no intention of responding and are down to "I thought..." again an old tactic.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 01:05 PM

Just give up, lads. It is important for some people to 'win'. Let them have their moment here in the full knowledge that such a victory is entirely hollow.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 01:22 PM

Your "naval experience apparently makes you an "expert" on the type of weaponry available in 1916 - sure it does!!

Tell me Jom do you know why in the British Isles we have Ordnance Survey Maps? Can you tell us all about how they came into being in 1791?

To obtain what is known as the "Firing Solution" for any piece of artillery you have to know the position of the target, the elevation of the target and the gun platform respectively and the horizontal distance between gun and target. You then have to find a thing called "the error of the day" which takes into account humidity, temperature, wind speed and direction and barometric pressure all of which were perfectly capable of being measured then as they can be now. Now back in 1916:

Any OS map of Dublin City would give the position of any target
The tide tables for Dublin would give the height of the gun platform (In this case a moored ship) while the OS Map would give height above sea level as well as the horizontal range between the Helga and whatever building was being targeted. The ballistic characteristics of the gun are a known quantity and the competence of the gunnery team known (Their training after all would be to hit a moving target from their own moving ship - In the case we are talking about both target and ship are stationary making it even simpler) - as previously stated a simple matter of applied mathematics - no-one would have to be an expect to state the above, all it takes is common sense. As someone else pointed out the Patrol Ship Helga fired 40 shots over the period of the Rising - Again from personal experience a hand served 4.5" QF Gun with an experienced crew is capable of firing 24 rounds per minute, the Helga was fitted with a 3" QF Gun firing fixed ammunition so her rate of fire would have been even quicker. As far as knowledge of gunnery goes - yours would appear to be non-existent.

By 1917 the performance of each gun firing over a prolonged period was known so that as the barrels heated and the rifling wore down the elevation could be adjusted to ensure that the shells fired did not fall short.

By the way the Henry I was referring to was Henry II NOT Henry VIII. He gave permission for an expedition to be sent to Ireland to curb raids from Ireland on the British mainland. By force of arms which was the way disputes were settled in those times the Kings of Ireland swore an oath of fealty to Henry II. Note Kings plural so Ireland was not a united country in an attempt to establish a uniform peace a High King was elected this however was by no means successful.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 01:46 PM

"Tell me Jom do you know why in the British Isles we have Ordnance Survey Maps"
an you tell me why you insuist on talking down to people - you really don't know enough to do so?
You are among the first to shout when people are insulting yet you seem incapable of recognising it in yourself.
As I said, it must have been all those nasty man with rifles who destroyed all those buildings
Have you any source for your claims - you never put them up?
Doesn't matter which King it was - the devastation of Ireland and the killing of its people was ongoing for the centuries Ireland was occupied - right into the 20th century - though they managed to score a personal best with The Famine.
Now - try to remember your place in the pecking order of things.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 02:07 PM

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm how did all those fires start then

Fires where? In the middle of a built up area of a city in 1916 in the following buildings the Irish Times warehouse and Hoyte's Druggists and Oil Works. All of which contain highly flammable material, tell me Raggy were there any gas mains in this part of Dublin? Any coal fires? any coal fired boilers? I can think of many sources of ignition even if you cannot. But no none of these could possibly have started a fire it must have been "The Brits" using incendiary shells - utterly risible. Tell me Raggy what would an anti-submarine Patrol Boat be doing with incendiary shells? For what possible reason would she carry them or fire them? The Helga would have carried and fired AP or HE rounds. Oh another source of ignition Raggy is transfer of Kinetic Energy (Example: A Battle Class Destroyer was used as a target for an inert deadweight Sea Dart Missile, the ship was closed down as she would have been had she been at action stations with cameras and sensors placed in every compartment of the ship. This dead weight missile hit the main deck just below the bridge the fuel of course did start fires in easily identifiable locations, the transfer of kinetic energy however lifted the Operations Room deck to within 3 feet of the deckhead and it started fires throughout the ship). Solid AP shot would have the same effect and High Explosive rounds would start fires too.

Now then tell us all about these incendiary shells Raggy? What guns fired them and what were they used for? Absolutely no naval application and no Army application either for the conditions and circumstances that prevailed on the Western Front (All that mud and rain - just WTF are you going to set alight?) You mentioned Thermite which first appears to have been used in the Second World War NOT during the First World War.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 02:20 PM

I am curious about this pecking order Jim..you have gone off in that direction before. Could you explain that to us or is it just your default position when you have facts presented to you.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 02:37 PM

Nice one Jom - another brilliant example of you shooting yourself in the foot again.

Jim Carroll - 23 Apr 16 - 01:46 PM

"Tell me Jom do you know why in the British Isles we have Ordnance Survey Maps"
an you tell me why you insist on talking down to people - you really don't know enough to do so?"


Merely asking you a question Jom, which you obviously are unwilling to answer, or do not know the answer and are covering your lack of knowledge with bluster and deflection. On this particular aspect of the subject I clearly know more than you.

"As I said, it must have been all those nasty man with rifles who destroyed all those buildings

What no gas, no fires, no oil-fired lamps, no candles, no flammable materials to catch light?

the devastation of Ireland and the killing of its people was ongoing for the centuries Ireland was occupied - right into the 20th century

If one was to pull ones head out of ones arse Jom and do a bit of non-fictional reading you will find that the rulers you accuse of this devastation treated the people of Wales, England and Scotland no differently.

Now as for an actual example of someone talking down to someone how about this:

Now - try to remember your place in the pecking order of things.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 03:03 PM

"Now as for an actual example of someone talking down to someone how about this:"
Nothing wrong with retaliation as I'm sure you are aware as an ex (whatever!)
It seem your grasp doesn't extend to irony either - and you still talk down to people..
"I can think of many sources of ignition even if you cannot."
Many of the civilians were killed as a result of the British using artillery and heavy machine guns, or mistaking civilians for rebels. Others were caught in the crossfire in a crowded city. The shelling and the fires it caused left parts of inner city Dublin in ruins."
From Wiki - Easter Week' entry.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 03:51 PM

By the way, I was referring to your attack on Joe when I referred to fiction, which I never quote as evidence.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 04:32 PM

Please remember to tone the animosity down, and stick to the facts.

I'm still having a hard time figuring out what's the truth in this matter. Nathaniel Kahn directed and produced a 2003 film titled My Architect: A Son's Journey. The movie has a quote from Louis Kahn (the father) that goes something like this: "Everyone speaks the truth. It may be their truth, but nonetheless, it is the truth."

So, in this thread, we have various people expressing various conflicting truths about an event that took place a hundred years ago. Is it possible that there is truth in all these perspectives? I think so. Parliament passed an Irish Home Rule bill in 1914, and I'm sure many were surprised that the Irish would have an uprising (er, "Rising") in 1916. It's interesting to see that some people above were perturbed to see this event referred to as an "uprising." I would suspect that supporters saw it as a "Rising" (title case) and opponents as an "uprising" (lower case). Both terms are valid, within their particular perspectives.

And then I wonder what percentage of Irish people were satisfied with British rule. I've certainly heard many complaints here about the Irish government, particularly regarding its unholy alliance with the Catholic Church. According to posts from some Irish Mudcatters, the Irish government has been corrupt from the very beginning. Would Ireland have been better off as a semi-autonomous entity tied to the UK in the same way that Scotland is?

I would think that this centennial is a good opportunity for us all to examine the movement toward Irish independence with an open mind, learning the lessons that can be taught. I see no need to fight the battle again - but I can see great value in examining the event and learning from it.

When I worked as an intelligence analyst, I quickly learned that it is of utmost importance to learn to see things from the perspective of the opposition. Loyalty to one's own side may have some value, but I think a broader perspective is far more valuable.

And despite strong opinions to the contrary that are expressed here, I will continue to believe in the value of learning history from high-quality works of fiction. I read 4-6 nonfiction history books a year to balance things out, but fiction often gives me deeper insight.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 06:36 PM

Interested to hear that there is a "pecking order" on this forum Jom, does Max know about it - fortunately for all other members you are the only person who seems to think one exists and if it is all the same to you I will continue to blissfully ignore it.

One interesting point regarding this "crossfire" you mention was that "crossfire" in which British troops were firing at British troops or was it "Crossfire" where British troops were exchanging fire with Irish Volunteers? If the latter could you explain how it was only shots fired by the British troops that killed civilians - the rebels occupied a tiny part of the city and they had evacuated most of the civilian population from it before the fighting started - the area the rebels were firing into was the rest of the city which had not been evacuated therefore more civilians in the line of fire of the Volunteers.

Joe any argument based on fiction is inherently weak. In discussing any historical event there are certain reference points that are fixed.

The Irish Home Rule Bill WAS passed in the summer of 1914 and it received the Royal Assent on the 18th September 1914 so Home Rule was coming once the Great War had ended no matter what, nothing could have stopped it.

The Nationalist cause and any will to carry on any armed struggle was dying on its feet Pearse himself said it needed a blood sacrifice to revive it - hence the Easter Rising. The British Government felt that it had no option but to deal with the leaders harshly as they had visited and colluded openly with the enemy in time of war. Personally I believe that the better course would have been to imprison the leaders and expose their treachery. Ireland in being given Home Rule as envisioned was being offered Dominion Status as enjoyed by Australia, South Africa and Canada, nothing like Scotland which was and still remains as part of the United Kingdom. Those actively supporting the rising numbered less than 10,000, those who actively supported the British Government in their pursuit of the war vastly out numbered 210,000 men who all volunteered to fight. Not one single man was conscripted in Ireland. Keith A is correct in saying that had conscription been forced on the population of Ireland by it being introduced in April 1918 then not one man would have seen active service the process of organising the drafts and training them would have taken too long (Example in England: Harry Patch conscripted in September 1916 deployed to France in June 1917 - I make that 10 months so someone conscripted in Ireland in April 1918 would not have got to France until January 1919, almost three months after the end of the war). Keith A is also correct in stating that while conscription may have been considered in 1918 as a result of the German Spring Offensive of that year it was very quickly discounted and abandoned, the US troops who had crossed to France would have been combat ready long before any conscripts raised in the summer of 1918 in the British Isles.

The numbers tell their own story almost six days of fighting in a built up area in which field artillery, machine guns and rifles were used and this resulted in 485 fatalities - 260 civilians out of a population of around 306,000 (0.008%), Government forces and police 143 out of a force of 16,000 (Less than 1%), Rebel forces 82 out of a force of 1,250 (6.56%) - considering what the carnage could have been the numbers indicate proportionate restraint (The recent attacks in November in Paris last year killed 137 in just over two-and-a-half hours). Had there been no rising not one single person would have been killed by troops, police or rebels that Easter and not one building would have been destroyed.


No military aggression against Home Rule as first suggested in 1914, but having views based on works of fiction and television drama it is amazing what some "believe" and hold to be "fact" - it also might account for the over emotive language used


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 06:40 PM

It remains absurd that this thread is retained in the "music" section. It's presence there undermines the credibility of this forum - such as it retains.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 06:41 PM

Joe, you do not learn history from fiction, that is why it is called. "Fiction" ! I have been both a student and teacher of history for many years, history is hard work and requires intense study and an acute awareness of the difference between concepts such as bias, neutrality, objectivity and factual information, novelists are not bound by any of these considerations and are often driven by populist narrative. that is why, for the most part, they cannot be taken seriously by historians.
If one wishes to study history, read history, if one wishes to discuss literature, discuss novelists, but don,t confuse the two.
as a result of reading this thread I have read more Irish history and years of study will be required to fully understand it but this has been an interesting introduction .


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 06:58 PM

" undermines the credibility of this forum" ,, easy for guest to say. many " guests "are avid readers of music threads but are deprived of civil debate in the so called bs section. your anonymity does not do much for the forums so called " credibility"!


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 07:11 PM

Take another look at fiction, HiLo and Teribus. For most of us, it is far more important for us to learn the culture, thinking, and life of an era. Nonfiction can go only so far in portraying these things in a way that affects people. For historical fiction to be credible, it must not betray the facts of the events within which the story is set.

Internet culture is obsessed with winning arguments, not with coming to understanding. Rather than accumulating facts and figures with which to win arguments, I want an understanding of how people felt about what was happening around them, and fiction can often convey that far better than nonfiction. I don't read to collect ammunition to win arguments. I read to come to understanding.

I wouldn't advise a steady diet of fiction, but I do think it has an important place. I suppose my fiction/nonfiction balance is about 50-50. That feels about right for me.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 07:42 PM

For most of us, it is far more important for us to learn the culture, thinking, and life of an era.

And who on earth guarantees that that is what you get when you read a work of "historical fiction"? How do you know that it reflects the culture, thinking and life of an era if you have not bothered to study the social history of the period.

Classic example: How many people believe that stand up "go for gun gunfights" took place in "The Wild West" because of fiction and cinema? Plain truth and fact is they were a myth, not one single such fight ever happened. I suppose someone will tell me that "Braveheart" was a representative depiction of the life of William Wallace and accurately reflects the culture, thinking and life of that era in Scottish History.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 07:45 PM

Thank you for your courtesy, GUEST,HiLo. The anonymity is because I no longer care to have my name associated with what I regard as a dishonestly run forum. I use that description carefully and coldly, having been involved in Mudcat since Max took The Digital Tradition under his wing all those years ago.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 07:48 PM

Joe Offer, that is a very good, measured post. I am increasingly staying clear of threads that involve Keith and Teribus precisely because those people appear to have no concept of the culture, thinking and life of the eras they profess to have so much knowledge of, yet no empathy with. It's a bloody hard case to argue, ultimately rather pointless. When it comes to the Easter Rising, there is no Keith-stroke-Teribus black and white, though, reading this thread, you'd think it was so simple. The last hundred years of Irish history has been defined by those events, not to speak of political and community fallouts. Maybe you have to live there. The rights and wrongs of the 1916 events are, well, not exactly irrelevant, but they happened and they are water under the bridge. The fallout is a different matter altogether.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 07:51 PM

I read a lot of fiction Joe, historical as well as other types, I am very appreciative of its, merits. good social historians provide much by way of cultural and social content. I do not think these arts are in opposition to each other but they do serve different roles and neither should be regarded as a sole source for Windows on the past, However, when I want to "know" history, I read history when I want to be entertained I read novels .
I totally disagree with your assertion that not fiction can go only so far in revealing the aspects of the past that touch people.. Read some good social historians Joe,
Internet "culture" is also obsessed with instant wiki scholars who think Wikipedia is the apex of all knowledge, when actually it is the revealer of great ignorance. it is not really hard to tell who studies things and who wikis them.
As for who wins and lloses, that's not confined to the Internet , that,s what happens when the poorly informed embark upon "debate" rather than discussion.
just my thoughts on things.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 08:11 PM

Teribus, there is no guarantee that either non-fiction or fiction is accurate. That's up to the reader to decide, by reading critically from a number of sources that represent a number of perspectives. Reading book reviews from credible publications, is also helpful.

I travel extensively, and I appreciate my travels more if I have read extensively about the place I'm going to visit. That helps me form preliminary ideas about the area, which I confirm or refute with what I learn in my travels.

I may be wrong, but it seems to me that for the most part, history is political history. Too many people see political events and the sum and substance of a place, and I disagree. Politics affects people only to a certain level. Most of everyday life has nothing to do with politics. I think that most Irish people of 1916, were more concerned about earning a living and raising their families, than they were about who held political power.

Too much emphasis on politics and political arguments, gives one a distorted perception of reality.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 08:17 PM

Well some of us have sufficient study skills to sort the wiki wheat from the wiki chaff. I am very sceptical of people who summarily dismiss wiki. Reading wiki is like reading any other non-fiction, except that wiki has millions of people poised to instantly rebel if something falls short, me included. You don't get that with esteemed historical tomes, which can often be in severe danger of turning into unopposed received wisdom. Let's call it the Keith 'n' Bill syndrome. When you look back at a particular era, it's a good idea to take note of historical tomes. After all, we admire scholarship. But that is severely two-dimensional without taking account of the feelings, the culture and the daily lives of ordinary people. Sometimes, just sometimes, fiction can inform. You wouldn't diss Dickens, would you?


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 08:18 PM

Hello Steve, just want to comment briefly on your post re " water underThe bridge". I don,t think the past is ever water under the bridge, nations, cultures and so forth are a bit like the Robbie Burns man , "Nursing their wrath to keep it warm!" old hates and grudges, misconceptions and distorted memories motivate much that goes on in the world, the study of history won,t cure it but it might help us to understand it, don,t you think ?


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 08:20 PM

Bloody hell, Joe, stop saying things that force me to agree with you! 😉


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 08:28 PM

What I was saying, HiLo, is that what happened happened. The fallout over the subsequent hundred years is what we should be discussing. When I say water under the bridge, I'm not saying that we should forget and not learn. But, to listen to K and T, you'd almost think that the last hundred years hadn't happened. The thing is, what has happened doesn't fit very well with their view that the rising was a useless waste of time.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 08:41 PM

Sorry, slip of the big digit on small device. Joe, you really need to read more history, it isn,t all political. there are many writers of good social and cultural histories, histories of music, art, architecture, many wonderful histories of food, what people eat and why... Histories of architecture, games, sports, fasihion. It is all there to be read and enjoyed. Then there are letters, diaries., newspapers and thousands of essays by ordinary people about things as diverse as keeping pigeons to what to put in a proper pasty. These are the histories of ordinary life, written by men and women who had little notion that they were keeping cultural records, they were just living life and that is good history.
"


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 08:43 PM

Yes, Steve, I do see your point and I agree.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 09:02 PM

Well Steve, I may well diss Dickens but if Jane Austen said that Mr. Darcy arrived in Mercedes, I,d believe her.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 09:51 PM

A theatre production Tim Van Eyken has been helping on

Jermyn Street Theatre,
London SW1Y 6ST

Easter Rising and Thereafter

Tue, 26th - Sat, 30th April (28th sold out)

"....part drama, part revue, part session. Incorporating poems, songs and speeches by W.B. Yeats, Dominic Behan, James Mangan, Louis MacNeice, Walter Savage Landor, Roger Casement, Winston Churchill, Sean O'Casey and others, it reveals the contrasting takes of the Easter Rising, the War of Independence, the Civil War and their legacies for Britain and Ireland. Shedding light on this often skewed period of history and in so doing, illuminating it."
http://www.jermynstreettheatre.co.uk/show/easter-rising-and-thereafter/ 


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 01:39 AM

No doubt all that is good, HiLo - but so is fiction. Can you honestly tell me that novelists like Hemingway and Faulkner and Steinbeck and Harper Lee, did not convey history with extreme quality, accuracy, and effectiveness?
Surely there must be novelists who chronicled the 1916 Easter Rising.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 03:57 AM

"Can you honestly tell me that novelists like Hemingway and Faulkner and Steinbeck and Harper Lee, did not convey history with extreme quality, accuracy, and effectiveness?" Joe
.,,.

I query that 'accuracy', Joe;

in that the fiction-writer's 'accuracy', designed to motivate the narrative of his invented world while retaining the reader's interest by such devices as suspense, mystery, ambivalences of characters' motivations, humour, & so on,

will surely not be of precisely the same nature as the 'accuracy' of the true historian, whose aim is purely to try & establish the facts of the matter to the best of his abilities & interpretations,

hoping to gain the agreement of his readers -- & esp his fellow-students of history -- with such interpretations & theories & hypotheses as he may propound.

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 04:02 AM

... and those novelists you name had all, surely, a political agenda & tendentious purpose in their creativity. To call a fiction writer 'creative' will be praise. To apply the adjective to a professional historian could be, at least ambivalently, pejorative --

would you not agree?


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 04:07 AM

... hope I am not too much beating this point to death: but the novelist's use of history will be of selective service in the pursuit of his narrative impetus, while the historian will just be endeavouring to establish as objectively as possible what the facts of the historical events actually were.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 04:08 AM

"Is it possible that there is truth in all these perspectives? "
As far as Ireland is concerned, every event is being examined in the minutest detail this year and presented to the public with a seriousness and skill that has impressed me.
I was reading about the exhibition of log books of the firemen who were on the spot at the time and documented the damage done by the artillery - dug out for the first time - aeem to confirm the extent of the damage done by artillery fire.
I caught the end of a news item on a march that took place yesterday to commemorate the support given by local people at the time of The Rising - I didn't know about that.
This anniversary, like that of The Famine, has inspired the re-examination of an event that Irish people have tended to take for granted.
There has never been any question of the rights and wrongs of kicking Britain's arse out - that has always gone unchallenged (except by Kevin Myers maybe!!)
The details of the rising have always been known but seldom put together other than as part of The War of Independence as a whole.
Somewhat typically, the authorities in Britain have largely ignored the event in the true spirit of begrudgery (good Irish word), much on display here by a couple of its supporters,
In six years time all will start all over again when Ireland celebrates Independence - hope I'm around to see that one.
"Surely there must be novelists who chronicled the 1916 Easter Rising."
There are, and there are several excellent plays, some written by people like O'Casey, who were around at the time, but if you want to understand Easter week, you really do have to go to the documented and researched information - there will be plenty to choose from in the next few months.
There are a few excellent, extremely readable books of eye witness accounts of Easter week: the best I have come across is 'Agony at Easter' by Thomas Coffey
Another worth looking out is 'Dublin 1916', made up of essays covering the events, including one by Hannah Sheehy-Skeffington (widow of the murdered pacifist) and a fascinating letter of support from Sylvia Pankhurst - first published in 1966, and edited by Roger McHugh.
"Interested to hear that there is a "pecking order" on this forum Jom, does Max know about it "
I gave you an example of virtually every post you make in response to anybody who has the temerity to disagree with you - seems to have hit a raw nerve - good! might lead to your responding to people as if they - just might - know as much as you do.
Let's see!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 04:18 AM

Steve, all that has happened since the rising has been effected by the rising.
My case has been very simple.
The rising was unnecessary because home rule was already agreed and assured.
That is a plain fact.
All those hundreds of deaths, including the cold blooded murders of Dubliners by the rebels, achieved nothing.

Also that the rebels had no mandate from the people of democratic Ireland.
They appointed themselves as leaders and shot anyone who challenged them.
The people were against them. That is a plain fact.

It is highly probable that but for the rising a peaceful transition to home rule and full independence was achievable, sparing Ireland the bloody horror of the civil war and thousands more Irish dead.

Jim,
It is true that I do not discriminate between Irish Catholics and Irish Protestants.
That is the mark of a sectarian bigot.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 04:27 AM

Murder in cold blood.
An unarmed policeman, James O'Brien from Kilfergus, Co. Limerick. blocked the gate of Dublin Castle to a large body of rebels.
They could easily have overpowered him, but "Captain" Connolly chose to shoot him down with his pistol at point blank range.
The first killing of the rising.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 05:17 AM

"Murder in cold blood"
This becomes intolerable.
Not only has Keith written of teh entire Irish nation (including his own daughter-in-law presumably) as gullible and ignorant of their own history and swayed by propaganda, but he is now accusing them of celebrating murder by treating the Uprising as they are now doing - racism in the extreme.
Can I suggest that, if this thread is to be allowed to continue, such openly inflammatory posts are deleted.
There can be no better evidence of why The Rising was necessary than this display of post-Imperial jingoist hatred.
You want so talk about murder Keith - look up "Sheehy-Skeffington" and how his murderer was 'punished'.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 05:34 AM

Internet culture is obsessed with winning arguments, not with coming to understanding. Rather than accumulating facts and figures with which to win arguments, I want an understanding of how people felt about what was happening around them, and fiction can often convey that far better than nonfiction. I don't read to collect ammunition to win arguments. I read to come to understanding.

So what happens on a discussion forum when what you read about something is just simply totally wrong? Do you just let it pass and allow the myth to stand, or do you attempt to inform and correct it?

Two examples out of many on this thread alone:

The Curragh Mutiny in March 1914 that wasn't even a mutiny was an act of military aggression - put plainly and simply - IT WASN'T.

The Irish Home Rule Bill of 1914 was thrown out and defeated - put plainly and simply - IT WASN'T it received Royal Assent on the 18th September 1914.

The only way to correct and destroy a myth, no matter how dearly held, is present the facts and figures that show the myth to be exactly what it is and the best source for accumulating the required facts and figures is from Historical works, NOT works of fiction. On numerous occasions on threads on this forum I have been told by one particular poster that because it was depicted in a Television drama then whatever was being shown MUST HAVE HAPPENED in real life - totally ridiculous.

I also find it rather telling that when confronted by the actual facts and figures that confront the myth, those supporting the myth never address or counter those facts or figures. It has nothing whatsoever to do with winning arguments it has everything to do with establish truth and that is truth from a whole range of perspectives.

If you are studying or discussing the period and era of the Easter Rising then what happened afterwards is irrelevant as none of that could have had any bearing on the event under discussion.

Was the Easter Rising a useless waste? Yes it was to everyone except those who wished to promote armed struggle (Exactly the same could be said about "The Troubles"). Would Ireland have gained home rule and then total independence had there been no Easter Rising yes it would the Bill was already on the statue books. Would the North have still elected to break away, yes in all probability it would as it's industry, commerce and culture was more aligned to the mainland than that of the South and they would naturally look to their own best interests.

The Easter Rising was only one of a number of factors that led to a landslide election victory for Sinn Fein in the 1918 election and in the following War of Independence and the Irish Civil War that followed on from that it was The Irish Free State/Irish Republics claim to the North that was the source that fomented all subsequent bloodshed in Ireland - thankfully that constitutional claim has now been abandoned


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 06:09 AM

"Do you just let it pass and allow the myth to stand,"
No - you argue it out without denigrating an entire nation - you have proved nothing so far and each time you are knocked down you walk away and start something else - a war of attrition.
"aren't you being a bit bullyingly censorious?
No Mike - Keith is the first to cry thread drift whenever he is in trouble and has suggested more than once that those who aren't Britisjh have no right to criticise Britain.
I am suggesting that deliberately inflammatory and racist statements be deleted in order that this discussion can be continued.
There has been a fair amount of interesting and valuable information exchanged here- it would be an awful shame to spoil that.
The Irish people are not stupid and ignorant of their own history and suggest they are reduces this discussion to the Bernard Manning.
Nor was the Easter Rising "Murder, pure and simple" - if anybody wants to discuss looting, rape, torture and mass-murder they need only open a thread on The Black and Tans
I'll be gone from here in the morning; off to Liverpool (no doubt to meet up with some stupid, ignorant fellow-Brits who will be celebrating Easter Week as we are) - I would hate to leave to a deliberately closed thread.
"If you are studying or discussing the period and era of the Easter Rising then what happened afterwards is irrelevant as none of that could have had any bearing on the event under discussion."
Everything that happened after Easter Week - especially the War of Independence and the gun-point signing of the treaty is vital to this discussion - it vindicates the need for and the success and weaknesses of the rising.
To remove such discussion would be simple manipulation.
"Ah but Michel there is the Carroll pecking order to be taken into account"
Nice to see my humour hit home Terri - try Germolene -always good for sore spots.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 06:16 AM

"Was the Easter Rising a useless waste? Yes it was to everyone except those who wished to promote armed struggle (Exactly the same could be said about "The Troubles"). Would Ireland have gained home rule and then total independence had there been no Easter Rising yes it would the Bill was already on the statue books. Would the North have still elected to break away, yes in all probability it would as it's industry, commerce and culture was more aligned to the mainland than that of the South and they would naturally look to their own best interests."

Nothing like a nice bit of theory. Lots of what-ifs there.

The recording and interpretation of history is replete with partiality, imperialism, political tendentiousness and revisionism. And some very good work. Squabbling about sources says a lot about your own desire to see things the way you've already decided. Dickens was a storyteller who told us a lot about the ordinary lives of Victorians. Woody Guthrie was a storyteller who told us a lot about the privations of exploited people. A storyteller isn't a liar any more than a biased historian is a liar. The latter can be somewhat harder to detect. Your hardback book with luxury dustcover sitting on the shelf of a respected bookshop could be a prime part of the deceit . Easy enough to select as your main source if you're of a certain mind. The hardest thing is to ditch your preconceptions and let all of them grab your attention equally. A PhD in history never made an honest man of anyone.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 06:57 AM

If Terribus's statements are to be taken seriously he needs to address every poing thet has been put up which, I believe, proves the contrary.
The treaty was accepted but not ratiied because of the war - there was every reason to believe that it never would be given the opposition to any form of Home Rule in the British Parliament - Tories still continued to attack it after it had been passed and The House of Lords had to be over-ruled.
When it was re-presented in July it had been radically altered, making partition permanent rather than being ended one year after the war ended.
Britain only surrendered sovereignty afre a bloody War of Independence and even then, a treaty had to be forced through by a threat of War.
That Treaty was the cause of a year-long bloody Civil War and the repercussions of the enforced partition are still being felt
That'll do for a start
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 07:20 AM

Jim,
Not only has Keith written of teh entire Irish nation (including his own daughter-in-law presumably) as gullible and ignorant of their own history and swayed by propaganda, but he is now accusing them of celebrating murder by treating the Uprising as they are now doing - racism in the extreme.

Fr Séamus Murphy SJ is an Irish Jesuit priest who is currently teaching philosophy at Loyola University Chicago.
He holds exactly the same views on the rising as I do, and the Irish Times is happy to publish them.

Are the Irish Times and Fr Murphy also racist in the extreme against Irish people, or are you just wildly lashing out because you have no other argument?


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 07:25 AM

"Was the Easter Rising a useless waste? Yes it was to everyone except those who wished to promote armed struggle (Exactly the same could be said about "The Troubles"). Would Ireland have gained home rule and then total independence had there been no Easter Rising yes it would the Bill was already on the statue books. Would the North have still elected to break away, yes in all probability it would as it's industry, commerce and culture was more aligned to the mainland than that of the South and they would naturally look to their own best interest"
this comment is debatable, we simply do not know whether home rule would have happened or not.
irelands has not even now got full independence.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 07:30 AM

For someone who stated that they were "staying clear of threads that involve Keith and Teribus" you seem to be having a great deal of trouble doing precisely that.

Teribus: "Was the Easter Rising a useless waste? Yes it was to everyone except those who wished to promote armed struggle (Exactly the same could be said about "The Troubles"). Would Ireland have gained home rule and then total independence had there been no Easter Rising yes it would the Bill was already on the statue books. Would the North have still elected to break away, yes in all probability it would as it's industry, commerce and culture was more aligned to the mainland than that of the South and they would naturally look to their own best interests."

Steve Shaw: "Nothing like a nice bit of theory. Lots of what-ifs there."

Oddly enough Shaw - not one single WHAT-IF to be seen in what I stated, only piece of conjecture there regarded the decision of the North to part company from any united independent Ireland and that is hardly conjecture as that is exactly what they did in fact do in 1921.

Some posters here seem desperate to move the discussion on three years to highlight the atrocious behaviour of the "Tans" but those self same people feel it appropriate to pass over the reasons the "Black and Tans" and the "Auxiliaries" came into existence. These were the result of Sinn Fein winning the 1918 election and their failure to outrightly condemn the murder of a policeman lawfully engaged in escorting a delivery of explosives to a quarry that was attacked by members of the IRA (who obviously needed those explosives for some perfectly legal and peaceful purpose no doubt). The failure to condemn the action prompted an "open season" on anyone wearing the Crown on their uniforms and as their elected government in Ireland did not protect its "servants" charged with the maintenance of law and order recruitment plummeted and alternative arrangements had to be made. The actions of the RIC, the Tans and the Auxiliaries were rightly condemned both in Ireland and in the rest of Great Britain which caused them to be first withdrawn and then disbanded. Here we come to the value of fiction versus historical fact the outrage at Croke Park is attributed in fiction and in popular belief to the Black and Tans the fact of the matter was that not a single member of the Black and Tans was present in Croke Park that Sunday - Regular members of the RIC accompanied by a small detachment of Auxiliaries carried out the massacre. Still no matter eh? Never let fact get in the way of a good story. And that is where I part company with most here on this forum - I believe that if you are going to tell a story then at least have the integrity and honesty to get it right. Ask Mr Carroll for the date Kitchener was forced to resign - then go to the history books and find out that he never did resign and that he was never forced to resign. Mr Carroll however knows better and will still persist in claiming that Kitchener was forced to resign. One of the reasons I have long since given up entering into any discussion with him as even when proven to be completely wrong he conveniently ignores all presented and recorded fact.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 07:42 AM

Do we know whether or not Ireland would have been granted Home Rule? Yes of course we do, it was one of the items of business to be addressed put at the top of the Westminster Governments order of business after the end of the Great War - don't take my word for it consult Hansard and any history book covering the topic at the time.

Carroll should read up on Parliamentary procedure the House of Lords having objected the Irish Home Rule bill for the Third time in 1914 means that as far as the House of Lords went that was the end of their objections and the Bill would receive Royal Assent irrespective of their objections and that is what DID IN FACT HAPPEN.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 07:45 AM

""Tans" but those self same people feel it appropriate to pass over the reasons the "Black and Tans" and the "Auxiliaries" came into existence. These were the result of Sinn Fein winning the 1918 election and their failure to outrightly condemn the murder of a policeman lawfully engaged in escorting a delivery of explosives to a quarry that was attacked by members of the IRA (who obviously needed those explosives for some perfectly legal and peaceful purpose no doubt)."
Two yeas of rape, mass murder, torture, terrorism and pillage because of the "failure to outrightly condemn the murder of a policeman lawfully engaged in escorting a delivery of explosives to a quarry"
Are you joking?
The Tans were sent in to soften up the Irish people to accept a forced-though treaty which partitioned Ireland - like the executions of the Rising leaders, it failed miserably and backfired.
The treaty was eventually forced through at gunpoint.
I know somebody has already put this up but worth a revisit
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 08:18 AM

"For someone who stated that they were "staying clear of threads that involve Keith and Teribus" you seem to be having a great deal of trouble doing precisely that."

I said I was increasingly staying clear. My posting record will confirm that. I didn't say I promised to stay clear or that I would permanently stay clear out that I would always stay clear. It makes a difference. The thing is, Teribus, it's precisely that kind of twisting that makes most people here mistrust your take on historical records. What with you trying that kind of thing on, and Keith with his Wheatcroft moments, and both of you with your obvious right-wing king-and-country bias, we often find we can't believe a word you say.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 08:37 AM

Steve, I am going to disagree with you on several points. Your observation that a PhD in history does not make one honest is true, of course. There are both good and bad historians, as there are good and bad in any walk of life. I suspect that you have not read much history and that you underestimate readers of history. Not everyone is hoodwinked by glossy books in a shop. In fact, much of good historical research goes unnoticed by the general public.
I also disagree with your comments about "obvious" right wing bias on the part of Teribus. For the most part he presents facts, some of which are largely ignored by those opposed to him. Again, I think you have not read much history Steve or you would not be so quick to dismiss many writers of history as biased or worse. Just an observation, not meant to insult you.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 08:42 AM

A bit tendentious, Steve, tho, eh, implicitly to equate 'king-and-country·dom' with manifest dishonesty.

Eh wot·wot·wot !!


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 08:51 AM

I'm not dismissing historians as a body of people. I am saying that we can see things in the round far better if we take on board not just the professional historians we personally favour (plenty of name-dropping in these threads) but also the ones who grate with our personal politics, as well as contemporary chroniclers and writers who we may not think of as historians but who can speak to us about the lives of ordinary people. Too right I haven't read much history, but I have read much. I know how to discriminate, thank you. It's a study skill that goes across the board, not confined to history. There are people singing in amateur choirs and playing in local village orchestras who understand Handel and Beethoven far better than many a professor of music.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 08:52 AM

That is not what I did, Michael.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 08:54 AM

"I suspect that you have not read much history "
Can we concentrate on the history that has been presented rather than what people "suspect" others do or do not know, which, as far as I can see, we have been warned about.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 09:04 AM

Oh, wasn't it Steve? -- then kindly explain what you meant by

"both of you with your obvious right-wing king-and-country bias, we often find we can't believe a word you say."


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: GUEST,HiLoI
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 09:05 AM

Tell me how you discriminate Steve if you have not read much history ?It is a study skill that goes across the board, well, no it is not. I would think that a fairly wide knowledge of a subject would be essential in making judgements, as in any discipline.
Jim, you have missed my point ...again.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 10:52 AM

"we often find we can't believe a word you say."

Perhaps you can remember an untrue word?
I think not, and certainly not from me on Wheatcroft or anything else.

Will you finally substantiate one of your baseless assertions Steve?


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 01:09 PM

Do you believe a word that Jim says Steve?
While you are trying to remember anything untrue from T and I, read T's list of historical falsehoods asserted by Jim.

You can add to that list his claim that the rising prevented Irish conscription.
In reality the act that brought in conscription for everyone else in Britain was passed before the rising, and it specifically and uniquely excluded Ireland.
So nothing to do with the rising.

Joe, you said that you had learned a lot from this thread. Can you give us a couple of for instances?


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 01:34 PM

"Do we know whether or not Ireland would have been granted Home Rule? Yes of course we do,"
this is just your opinion, but is not based on fact, the fact that a bill is on the statute book does not mean it will be passed or rejected, it is something we will never know., it is akin to predicting which horse will win a race or whether it will be a non runner. no one can predict the future


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 01:50 PM

Absolutely right, Dick.

"Perhaps you can remember an untrue word?
I think not, and certainly not from me on Wheatcroft or anything else."

That's completely untrue for a start. You must think we have very short memories. You completely misrepresented the man then brazenly denied it, and Teribus backed you to the hilt. I suspect it was more a case of his closing ranks than feeling enthusiastic about you.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 03:10 PM

Oh, wasn't it Steve? -- then kindly explain what you meant by

"both of you with your obvious right-wing king-and-country bias, we often find we can't believe a word you say."


Michael, don't do this please. The comment you're taking issue with was inextricably connected to the bit you didn't quote about Teribus's twisting of my words. They do have that bias, both of them, vide their extensive posting history sycophantically defending those wax-moustachioed society toffs who sent millions to their deaths in the Great War. But my beef was with the twisting of my words. Get a grip, Michael, and don't waste my time.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: GUEST,Dr. Modette
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 03:24 PM

It's great fun (not!) watching a bunch of Brits agonise about our history.

Meanwhile, many thousands of us have been out on the streets today celebrating and commemorating those who died in 1916.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 03:34 PM

We're not agonising about your history, some of us. We're right with you. But denial and revisionism cast long shadows. That's what this unseemly tussle is about. Know thine enemies!


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 04:37 PM

Not everyone is hoodwinked by glossy books in a shop.

Just those who insist that historians can only be taken seriously if they have books published in high street book shops by any chance?

Just asking...


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 06:06 PM

"Get a grip" right back to you, Steve. Whatever the motivations or context, or whoever the "both of you" you apostrophise, your

"right-wing king-and-country bias, we often find we can't believe a word you say"

will bear no interpretation other than that which I put on it, of dishonesty implicit in any "king-&-country" postulation. Can't see how you can deny it.

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 06:36 PM

That's entirely your problem. I did explain it to you.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 06:45 PM

Dave, with all " due" respect, you have a great gift for missing the point! you constantly go back to previous threads, please try and focus on the discussion at hand.
also , I will observe that "left wing " ideology is also rife with bias.
An ideology, left or right is not what the study of history is about, those ideologies are what politics and social science are about. just my take on it based on many years of close study.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 06:57 PM

No, but you'd have to be far more saintly than any modern historian you choose to name in order to execute that study without all manner of bias creeping in.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: GUEST,Hilo
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 07:07 PM

Name a few Steve! I am curious who you have read ?


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 08:00 PM

Well you might as well be telling me that I can't comment on Liverpool matches because I haven't actually played for the first team. Absurd.

You will not find me commenting, ever, on the quality of historical sources. Why not? Because I don't read any, that's why. I don't step beyond the bounds of my very limited knowledge. Prove that I do, if you dare. But you appear to have this problem, thinking that I'm not able to extrapolate from my scientific background, which requires a good deal of automatic scepticism about everything I'm told, to any other topic. Well, I assure you that my grounding is quite sound. Unlike science, and unfortunately for those history buffs who would like to claim exclusivity, there is nothing technical about reading history. A non-specialist is perfectly capable of reading even the most testing historical tome with little difficulty, given a sufficient degree of curiosity and desire for background knowledge. So please don't come the "how many history books have you actually read, Steve?" bullshit. Irrelevant. If I glean that you don't agree, be very wary of ever saying anything about science at all. I just might be on your case, and you won't have a leg to stand on.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 25 Apr 16 - 12:12 AM

The empower has no clothes! unlike your good self Steve, I do not pontificate on subjects I have little knowledge of.


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 25 Apr 16 - 12:59 AM

Of course it should read "emperor". , sorry !


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Apr 16 - 01:11 AM

The last ten messages or so had nothing to do with the Easter Rising, so I deleted them. Keeping this thread in the music section is an experiment, to see if we can have civil and on-topic discussions of controversial topics here if they are related to music. I undeleted most of the messages after I moved the thread to the BS section.
-Joe Offer, Music Editor-


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Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 25 Apr 16 - 01:50 AM

We were talking about history Joe God, you just don,t get it do you? I think it is both a shame and a disgrace that you have so much power to control debate here. you yourself engaged in this fairly civil discussion relating to history. not all of YOUR posts have dealt exclusively with the Easter rising.
I do wish two things, restore what you have deleted and and stop being so hypocritical.
I do not expect this post to last , but I hope it remains long enough that others may comment


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Apr 16 - 03:09 AM

I was hoping this thread could be kept in the music section, since so many songs sprang from the Easter Rising. Alas, this thread has deteriorated into the usual squabbling, so I have to admit defeat.
I kept the music posts in the music section, and moved the rest to BS.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Apr 16 - 03:45 AM

Good Soldier Schweik - 24 Apr 16 - 01:34 PM

The 1914 Irish Home Rule Bill received Royal Assent on the 18th September 1914 - that having been signed meant that it would be put into effect, the fact that the country was at war delayed that implementation - those are the clearly established facts and they are a simple matter of record.

The matter would not go back to the Commons or to the Lords, it is British Parliamentary procedure today as well as back then that the Lords only get the chance to "amend" Bills proposed by the Commons for three readings after which they go through irrespective of what the House of Lords thinks - again that is well recorded fact to anyone who knows anything about the British Parliamentary system.

The above being true means that having received Royal Assent in 1914 and under a separate Parliamentary Bill which delayed implementation until after the war, then Irish Home Rule was a done deal as far as the Westminster Parliament was concerned - no matter of opinion enters into it. Implementation of Irish Home Rule was in fact the first thing the elected Government turned its hand to after the 1918 elections - again clearly established fact that can be easily checked, it is a matter of Parliamentary record.

Steve Shaw - 24 Apr 16 - 08:18 AM

" we often find we can't believe a word you say."

In that case why don't you check what is being said? You never have come back with any facts to counter what has been said, which leads one to believe that you either didn't check, or that you did check and found the information given correct? The other alternative is that you are just arguing for the sake of it based on perceived personalities - I think that it is the latter that is in fact the case.

But just for the record I have never supported any political party in my life, I have however seen the damage to our country wrought by them and am perfectly capable in forming my own opinion as which ones have been the worst.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Apr 16 - 04:17 AM

Why don't you just become a member, HiLo, then you can tell me which point I am missing?

Is it the point that we should not be hoodwinked by glossy history books in shops or the point that we should only believe glossy history books in shops?


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Apr 16 - 06:32 AM

Steve, if you are going to throw muck at members, saying you can not believe a word they say, you should be prepared to justify the accusation.
Really you should not attack a person at all, just what they actually say.
You were given examples of someone else's false statements, who you chose not to attack.

Will you now give an example of untruths from T and me?
If not you should withdraw the slander.

Wheatcroft.
You accused me of dishonesty because I only partially quoted him, when I had quoted the passage in full just 2 days before.
So there was no deception and no dishonesty at all, and that was back in 2014!


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Apr 16 - 06:41 AM

Dick, of course it is true that any act of parliament can be overturned by another, but in practice it does not happen, certainly not within a couple of years.

When the bill was being passed Britain had no intention of becoming involved in any war between Germany and France, so it was assumed by all involved that it would come into force at once.

The people of Ireland were content to get the war out of the way first and then have the peaceful transition of power that everyone except believers in blood sacrifice wanted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 16 - 09:55 AM

"Will you now give an example of untruths "
Don't know about T -you claimed to have responded to all my questions - you have responded to none.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that telling porkies
You have denigrated the entire Irish nation and refuse to qualify your attacks -- not lying as such, but certainly evasive dishonesty.
Terrytoon doesn't usually lie as such - just makes prononcments and retires into silence when shot down......
Sorry, but you did ask (and I didn't mention your posting under a false identity!!)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Apr 16 - 09:59 AM

Quite right Bridge - no go tell the Spartans


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Apr 16 - 10:02 AM

PS If something erroneous or false is written down it is not slander it is libel. Yet another error.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Apr 16 - 10:09 AM

when shot down Carroll?

Give me an example please

Tell us all once again that the Curragh Mutiny which wasn't was an act of military aggression

Tell us once again that the 1914 Irish Home Rule Bill never got Royal Assent because it had been kicked out by the Tories and the House of Lords

Tell us once again about Lord Kitchener being forced to resign

There are myriad examples of you shooting yourself in the foot and being "shot down" as you put it.

Classic in your last post whereby you accuse Keith A of lying then state immediately afterwards that he was not actually lying.

You are great at flinging out baseless accusations yet seem terribly reticent when it comes to providing examples when requested to do so - don't worry Carroll you are not the only one on this forum guilty of such behaviour.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 16 - 12:12 PM

How many do you want
No heavy artillery in Dublin
Wealthy pre-word War One Liverpool
Democratic Britain in the early 1800s
The obscene profits on ceramic poppies
Te withering away of the State being part of Marxist doctrine.
I asked you for a link to your claims on the weapons sizes - and answer came there none.
Your habit of going into purdah whenever you are challenged is well-known - and you never - never link your claims.
You make your pronouncements then do a runner, which is what I said
We all make mistakes, but nobody actually makes things up..
The Home Rule Bill was actually kicked out in July 1916 by the Redmondites in Parliament because it had been altered, making Partition permanent, and was eventually accepted at gunpoint in 1922 after two years of War of Independence - that forced acceptance led to a further year of Civil War.
I asked Keith if he had any problem with this fact - he demurred -perhaps you will be more forthcoming
The Curragh was a Mutiny according to the dictionary definition of the term - a threat to obey orders, whether the carried out that threat is immaterial - the defied a Government order, which is why it was, and to an degree, it is known as The Curragh Mutiny.
You were given this but you seem to have retired to you room in a sulk.
Yours in anticipation
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Apr 16 - 01:12 PM

How many do you want asks Jom:

No heavy artillery in Dublin

There was no heavy artillery in Dublin Jom the 18 pounder mentioned is a piece of field artillery. As you know S.F.A. about artillery please feel free to do a bit of research. Heaviest naval gun was even smaller. Those are the facts Jom. If you wish to dispute them then come back with some substantive and verifiable detail.

Wealthy pre-word War One Liverpool

The period 1902 to 1919 was one of major expansion and along with that went wealth and job opportunities.

Democratic Britain in the early 1800s

1832 is hardly the early 1800s but none the less the Reform Act brought in that year was a significant stepping stone on the path to Parliamentary reform the democracy we now enjoy.

The obscene profits on ceramic poppies

This was one that you got amazingly wrong the poppies I believe raised millions for the six nominated charities. It was you who got the costs wrong, it was you who made the claims that they were made for profit. Please consult the Royal British Legion for the real facts about the ceramic poppies - but as usual you won't be arsed to actually get to the truth.


Te withering away of the State being part of Marxist doctrine.

Completely lost me on that one

I asked you for a link to your claims on the weapons sizes - and answer came there none.

What weapons, what claims? When was this asked of me? In context with what?

The Home Rule Bill was actually kicked out in July 1916 by the Redmondites in Parliament because it had been altered

What you state there is a Parliamentary impossibility. The Redmondites were not in power and as that is plainly true then they could not enact or repeal anything that already had Royal Assent.

The Curragh was a Mutiny according to the dictionary definition of the term - a threat to obey orders, whether the carried out that threat is immaterial - the defied a Government order, which is why it was, and to an degree, it is known as The Curragh Mutiny.

What order was disobeyed or defied? None was ever given that is why even in the link that you yourself provided it clearly stated that "The Curragh Mutiny" was not a mutiny at all.

Now come on Jom tell me when you have "shot me down"

Still waiting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Apr 16 - 02:32 PM

Jim,
Don't know about T -you claimed to have responded to all my questions - you have responded to none.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that telling porkies


No it is not, because I believe that I have answered.
As I asked you before, please say what you think I missed.

You have denigrated the entire Irish nation and refuse to qualify your attacks

I have not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Apr 16 - 05:17 PM

You have so! Nyah Nyah!


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Apr 16 - 06:23 PM

Yes, Keith, 2014. Yes you did quote from the Guardian article. Later, presumably hoping we wouldn't bother checking, you blatantly misrepresented it, putting words into Wheatcroft's mouth that he never uttered, let alone meant. You twisted and turned, you told us you were only "speaking generally" and you did not recant or apologise. Further, your ally Teribus (who actually went a bit quiet on you, having realised what you'd done) eventually came out and gave you his very lukewarm support. If I make a mistake here I acknowledge it to the forum and, if necessary, apologise. In every instance, that makes it go away, I've found. The fact that you won't ever do that speaks volumes about your reliability and honesty. The whole sorry episode didn't exactly reflect well on Teribus, either. This is not throwing muck. This is stating the truth of the matter that you refuse to acknowledge.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Apr 16 - 07:17 PM

"The empower has no clothes! unlike your good self Steve, I do not pontificate on subjects I have little knowledge of."

Nonsense. I don't know how many times I've put my hands in the air and admitted that I'm no historian. I don't "pontificate" on substantive matters of history, though I do reserve the right to question those self-professed experts hereabouts who've read a few hardbacks, watched a couple of series on the telly and who think they know it all. Unfortunately, you included. Let me just remind you again that you can, to some extent, blind people with science, what with all the technical stuff (I could probably lose you in a heartbeat on plant anatomy and physiology, using every big word in the book), but you can't blind people with history. It's accessible to all people of reasonable education (people who may not be history PhDs but who are not fools) who are perfectly capable of looking things up and who refuse to simply take "authoritative" statements from the likes of you, Keith and Teribus at face value (sorry to embarrass you by bracketing you with those reprobates: I promise never to do it again). From hereonin, I shall be watching carefully for signs of your pontificating on things I perceive that you know little about. And you know what I'm like.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 02:42 AM

No Steve.
I quoted the passage in full, and the discussion of it continued for two day with constant referring back to it.
Of course I did not quote the whole passage every time, because everyone knew what it said.

You were desperate to get something on me, you had no knowledge of the history we were discussing (as now!) so you tried to make something out of nothing.

You just claimed, "we often find we can't believe a word you say."

Often?
You have to go back to 2014 to find an example that is not an example anyway!

Your accusation was just an empty smear, because you have nothing else to offer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 02:46 AM

" It's accessible to all people of reasonable education (people who may not be history PhDs but who are not fools) who are perfectly capable of looking things up and who refuse to simply take "authoritative" statements from the likes of you, Keith and Teribus at face value (sorry to embarrass you by bracketing you with those reprobates: I promise never to do it again)."

Ah but that is just it Shaw - You who according to your own words haven't read anything - while you may be perfectly capable of looking things up you NEVER ACTUALLY DO THAT.

As stated previously:

1. You are too damn lazy to look things up and check the information being given. Which means that you are just out for an argument and there is absolutely no point in engaging with you in the discussion.

2. You have in fact looked things up and found the information provided correct but have not the honesty or integrity to actually admit it.

By the way when it comes to pontificating lad - you take the biscuit.

Yes we do all know what you are like Shaw we've seen the pattern before - you are now in the "lets get this thread closed" mode.

Wittering on about some pedantic rant you went into two years ago FFS is that really all you can come up with? I'd say that you really do need to get a life.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 02:49 AM

Rag,
PS If something erroneous or false is written down it is not slander it is libel. Yet another error.

Yes it was.
I tend to think of these exchanges as conversations not correspondence, but an honest mistake.
I am often guilty of them, but never lies like when you "quoted" some historians but altered their words to reverse the meaning.
I would rather lose a debate than stoop to such tactics.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 03:12 AM

Talking of not responding to point Teribus I posted a few questions a day or two back to which you have not responded I suggest there is a difference between being indiscriminate and being accurate and asked:

Can you tell us the percentage of your practise artillery firing was accurate:

1. From the first shot.

2. Overall.

3. Would your figures have been achievable in 1916.

On another issue we were all asked to be polite to each other, thus I am calling you Teribus, I am calling Keith, Keith. I have noticed both you and he still refer to me as Rag or Raggy neither of which are my pseudonym and you still refer to Jim as Jom. I can easily revert if I have too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 03:20 AM

Rag, we all abbreviate long names, and I will continue to do so.
Keith is a massive abbreviation of mine.

Re artillery, in Dublin in was used in the direct fire role.
The gun was pointed at the target and fired using its sights.
A building is an unmissable target. They would have aimed at the actual windows being used as fire positions.

Look at the pictures I linked to of Liberty Hall and YMCA.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 03:42 AM

So let me get this right professor. There's a ship moored on the River Liffey that you are saying could fire directly into windows behind which the rebels were placed in Sackville Street.

If I were you professor I would check that with Teribus, I think he may advise you otherwise.

I've attached a nice photograph and an interesting paragraph or two about the ship just for you. You may want to notice the reference to incendiary shells, but there again you may not.

HMY Helga


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 03:46 AM

"I would rather lose a debate than stoop to such tactics"

Brilliant.


OK lads, form an orderly queue, no pushing at the back.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 03:54 AM

Which means that you are just out for an argument and there is absolutely no point in engaging with you in the discussion.

Yet you do constantly engage with him in discussion. Seeing as this is a folk music related site I will quote a song.

Who's the fool now?


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 04:24 AM

That 'explanation' Steve claimed to have been definitive at 0636 on the 24th, claiming it was 'my problem' if I didn't follow it, appears to have been less than satisfactory to others as well as me - vide eg Keith & Teribus ½-doz or so posts back. Perhaps his thinking in this particular instance has been a trifle less than of A++ standard in that hyaline clarity that we have all so uniformly come to expect of him --

teeheeheehee behind the

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 04:50 AM

"By the way when it comes to pontificating lad - you take the biscuit."

Well, how typical of this fellow not to see the irony of his saying that! 😂

Pedantic rant? Well, it was no rant. It was a patient dissection of Keith's outrageous misrepresentaions of his source, which unfortunately for him I also happened to see, in which he persisted over a period of weeks, which exposed him for the unreliable fraud that he is. Pulling someone up for claiming that his source said something that was blatantly neither said nor meant is not pedantry. Perhaps you should look the word up. And you clearly didn't go back to check - it wasn't "two years ago," it was less than eighteen months ago. I think your historian friends would be embarrassed by your poor attention to detail, and it certainly doesn't encourage us to take anything you tell us at face value.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 04:55 AM

Michael, you should have recognised by now that things I say that Keith and Teribus don't find satisfactory are never going to make me lose a wink of sleep. As for you, I've spent enough time on that matter and as far as I'm concerned I've explained it as much as I'm prepared to. Now find something else to get your dentures into, why don't you. End of.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 04:59 AM

Thanks for the Link Raggy (Term of endearment) but readers of stuff on the internet should not believe everything they read, incendiary shells apart here is another glaring error from the link you supplied:

"Ravaged by sniper fire, machine guns, nine-pound guns from Trinity College and 18-pound shells from the gunboat the Helga, the insurgents were forced to abandon the GPO and set up headquarters in 16 Moore Street."

The guns mounted on HMY Helga were 12 pound QF guns firing fixed ammunition. According to reports she fired on Liberty Hall and on one of the bridges which he hit with her opening fire, Liberty Hall a building used to print James Connolly's newspapers was also used up until the start of the rebellion to make bombs, grenades and bayonets for the Volunteers. As both Liberty Hall and the Bridge were located on the river Helga would have been firing on direct line of sight. The 18 pounders referred to were Army Field pieces. The Helga would not have carried incendiary ammunition as it has no naval gunnery application.

As to addressing your questions Raggy, would it make even the slightest bit of difference if I did answer them? Been down that route with you before and found it pointless, in any case they were all rather irrelevant having no relation to what was being discussed. By the way indiscriminate fire is when you just blaze away in a general direction for an indeterminate time with no attempt made to identify or hit a specific target. Targeted fire is when you identify, aim and correct if need be to hit a specific target, for a specific purpose.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 05:11 AM

Steve, I had already quoted the passage in full, and deceived no-one about what Wheatcroft said.
I had no need to. The whole article supported my case.

You just had nothing else to offer in reply.

Rag, your link was to something published by the Collins Society.
Did you expect any objectivity?

The Helga also fired only at visible targets. Liberty Hall actually and it did not burn down.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 05:15 AM

"As to addressing your questions Raggy, would it make even the slightest bit of difference if I did answer them? Been down that route with you before and found it pointless, in any case they were all rather irrelevant having no relation to what was being discussed. By the way indiscriminate fire is when you just blaze away in a general direction for an indeterminate time with no attempt made to identify or hit a specific target. Targeted fire is when you identify, aim and correct if need be to hit a specific target, for a specific purpose"

Yes Terriblossom it is pertinent because both you and I know that lobbing 12 or 16lb shells about in a built up area may not just kill and maim the intended target but that innocent civilians can also be killed and injured.

They may not even hit the intended target which is the reason you refuse to be drawn on the subject.

I do note identify, aim and correct, in other words the "target" is not necessarily the only thing damaged. That is indiscriminate in my book.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 05:21 AM

Another link for you and territowelling, professor.


Link


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 05:51 AM

Rag, from your link,
"On the 26th of April, positioned on the Liffey, she raised her 12 pound artillery guns over the Loop Line railway bridge and fired at her first target Liberty Hall, the Head Quarters of Citizen Army. Her shots were less than accurate and her shells destroyed much of the surrounding buildings and beyond. She also targeted the GPO and Bolland Mills which Eamon De Valera had occupied."

Has anyone but Ann Robinson(?) suggested that Helga fired at GPO?
She provides a pictire of Liberty Hall after the rising which shows it holed by shells but not burned, and surrounding buildings damaged but not "destroyed" as she claims in the text.
So not very reliable.

Here again is the essay by a curator of the National Museum of Ireland, published in the leading journal of Irish History.

"Subsequently the Helga II gained an undeserved reputation for playing an essential part in the Rising. (Most of the damage to Dublin's city centre was caused by fire, particularly at premises like the Irish Times warehouse and Hoyte's Druggists and Oil Works, rather than by shelling.)"
"On 25 April 1916 the Helga sailed from Dún Laoghaire to shell Boland's mill, and on the following day fired over the loop line railway bridge at Liberty Hall. In total the Helga fired only 40 rounds during the Rising, and it is difficult to assess the effectiveness of the fire from her guns."
http://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/tss-helga-ii/


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 06:00 AM

Another Link

This one is brilliant terribombast, the gunner aboard the Helga missed the intended target with about 10 shells. So much for aim, correct etc .

Professor, you possibly don't know Dublin very well but look up the relevant positions of the Liberty Hall and Percy Place.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 06:12 AM

"I do note identify, aim and correct, in other words the "target" is not necessarily the only thing damaged. That is indiscriminate in my book."

Thankfully "your" book means S.F.A., and is based upon total ignorance and confirms my initial reaction to your idiotic questions and that you actually have no idea between the words deliberate targeted fire and indiscriminate fire. And WOW what a barrage eh? the massive total of 40 shots fired over a period of six days - good heavens that averaged out would mean an incredible one shell every three-and-a-half hours, and by the way didn't one of your pals state that Liberty Hall was abandoned by the Rebels early on? Wonder why? I'd call that a successful engagement wouldn't you (Can't think why I ask, after all you according to that book of yours wouldn't have the foggiest notion).

By the way the first shot fired by the Helga was targeted at a bridge which it hit, but then you would have known that had you bothered to actually read up on it, but there again you and your pals never do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 06:12 AM

Dentures, Steve? Why, despite my vast age, the teeth in my 〠 are still my own.

What was that you were bawling someone out over a few posts back, about checking facts before making assertions? Proper old biscuit-taker yr·dear·ole·self when the fit comes on you, innit!

teehee·ad·∞ n'all'tha'..................

☺☺☺☺≈M≈☺☺☺☺


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 06:24 AM

& I'll decide for myself when it's "end of", tanx v much justa same, without any unsolicited arrogation from so impertinently pre-emptive an organism as your·goodself, my good man...


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 06:28 AM

Ah I get it! Deliberately targeted fire is when you try to hit a target and miss. Sod the consequences of that action, we TRIED to hit the target. We failed miserably but at least we knew what we were trying to do when we missed the target.

According to the last link I put on the gunner TRIED about a dozen times and only actually hit the target once.

Brilliant that, gives me faith in everything you bullshit about. Back to the drawing board Terribombast, go and play with your toy soldiers again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 07:10 AM

I was speaking metaphysically when I referred to your dentures, in order to draw more attention to that great age you endure which seems to have the unfortunate effect of making you flog dead h End of again End of again

And Keith, you can repeat a lie a thousand times but you will never make it true. Your reputation is in tatters. Who do you think you're kidding?


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 07:12 AM

Yikes! Ill try again.

I was speaking metaphysically when I referred to your dentures, in order to draw more attention to that great age you endure which seems to have the unfortunate effect of making you flog dead horses. End of, yet again.

And Keith, you can repeat a lie a thousand times but you will never make it true. Your reputation is in tatters. Who do you think you're kidding?


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 07:13 AM

Call the apostrophe police!


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 07:14 AM

"No heavy artillery in Dublin"
You've been given s link that says there was and the firemen's log books put the damage they were dealing with down to heavy artillery - you wwere given evidence of all this.
You may, of course, know more than they did, but, in your inimitable fashion, still omit to supply a link to any of your claims, so we have to take you at your word - I don't.
"Wealthy pre-word War One Liverpool"
Again - no link.
The period was one of mass poverty and deprivation - don't need Government supplied figures for this one My parents were born in the early 1900s and my grandparents on both sides, spoke of their situation regularly.
Both Liverpool and Dublin were massively poor citied - the link I provided from Queens Uni. in Belfast specified as a reason fo volunteering for WW1 was the poverty and mass unemployment (alonng with other reasons).
But again, you appear to know more and again, you provide no linkd.
I provided a link to a University study of pre-war conditions in Liverpool - ignored and contradicted without proof of your own.
"Democratic Britain in the early 1800s"
The period of "reform " you mention saw the most controversial land enclosures in history, The Poaching Wars, the transportation of The Tolpuddle Martyrs for attempting to set up a Trade Union, the Highland Clearances were in full swing in Scotland, evictions of tenants forced many of them to emigrate to Canada in their hundreds of thousands, pretty much the same as with Ireland and the mine and mill owners were taking advantage of the mass emigrations to drive down wages and to stop the rise of the new Trades Unions.
Half the adult population of Britain had no vote and attempts by women to change that situation gave rise to police violence, imprisonment, forced feeding and humiliation - women only got the vote by agreeing to join the British campaign to decimate Britain's youth on the killing fields of Europe in WW1.
A democratic heaven, you might say!
"The Redmondites were not in power and as that is plainly true then they could not enact or repeal anything"
I didn't say they were capable of either - I said the described the Treaty they had previously supported as a "betrayal" because it had been altered to make partition permanent.
Stop distorting what I say.
The obscene profit in ceramic poppies was presented as a linked fact.
"No it is not, because I believe that I have answered, as I asked you before, please say what you think I missed."
You have now had it put up and you still haven't answered any of them
Britain attempted to introduce compulsory conscription in Ireland in 1918 - what part of that fact do you have a problem with?
Had Ireland not opposed British rule, there would have been no reason whatever that it should have been left out of the bloodbath - why should they have been left out while the rest of British youth was being slaughtered?
"The British parliament passed the act before the rising,"
And altered it in July 1916 to make the partition of the six counties permanent - it was originally intended that these counties (originally the whole of Ulster, but altered when it was realised that this would give the Catholics a majority in the North) would be partitioned until a year after the war ended.
Even the Parliamentary Irish rejected the re-written treaty - Redmond described it as "a betrayal"
The Republicans who took part in the Rising did so because they realised that Britain had no intention of ratifying any treaty that did not meet its own interests.
You have been given all this before, what part of this do you have problems with; if none, why are you raising it again and again and again.....?
Britain was finally forced to concede a form of Independence, at the threat of an alternative of "a signature or war", which lead to immediate Civil War in the 26 Counties, built in financial, political and land-owning injustice, inequality and hardship for the Catholic third of the six counties, and a near-century of unrest and bloodshed.
What problems do you have with any of this?
The Rising did not have the support of those in the immediately vicinity, (I told you this years ago), but there is no indication whatever of how the rest of Ireland felt - they were never asked.
It doesn't matter anyway - within a matter of months the Rebels had the complete support of the Irish people, a support which led to a full-scale war of independence which ended overall rule in Ireland by the wealthiest and most powerful Empire the world has known being kicked out ignominiously by poorly armed irregular fighters.
The Rising has since been considered the turning-point in Irish history by the Irish people as a whole.
You, who have stated you know nothing of Irish history and have never read a book on the subject, have taken onto yourself to describe the Irish people as a whole as gullible and misled in their beliefs and written-off that fully accepted Irish turning point with contempt - what does that make you Keith?
You said earlier that "we can finish this."
Your stated contempt for the Irish people and their knowledge of their own history wil never be "finished" until you withdraw your appalling statement or qualify it - it verges on racism to suggest that an entire nation is gullible enough to have been misled by propaganda on its own history and that you, with your declared ignorance and disinterest, know more than they do.
If anything, your stated contempt has been written into the history of this forum in your own words."
You have to provided answers to these question, you just keep repeating the same denials, as you still are - you claim you have answered them - this is simply untrue.
I have specifically asked if you have any problems with the facts I provided - are they true, did I make them up - If you have answered any of these and provided proof - where are your answers - not here?
I have asked you over and over again if you believe the Irish people to be stupid and ignorant to have been so fooled into supporting the Rising and in your own words "murder in cold blood" - if you have answered, where have you?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 07:24 AM

Just an ickle hint, dear ole Steve -- Check on distinction between metaphysics and metaphors... Or it'll be a Marvell if you don't get Donne...


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 08:03 AM

I have often heard that people become child-like as they get on in life, especially in their later years. Is this why they sometimes revert to child-like speech and behaviour. I have to say it is rather tedious and doesn't say very much for their intelligence really.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 08:15 AM

I note your recent sense of humour bypass surgery, Michael.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 09:09 AM


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 09:48 AM

Steve, I was repeating a truth not a lie.
Wheatcroft believes what I believe, his whole article supported my case, and I quoted the whole of the passage in question.
My reputation stands. No-one has ever found a lie of mine. I would much rather lose a debate than sink to that.

Do you have anything else on me?
You said "often."
Not true is it Steve.
A lie.

Rag,

According to the last link I put on the gunner TRIED about a dozen times and only actually hit the target once.


The writer asks us to believe that instead of engaging the rebels, those gunners blazed away at a flag pole!

Also that the shells somehow braked and fell into the Liffey!

Also that the Helga returned fire at the gun, invisible as it was among the buildings, which would be impossible.

He reports many other things he would have no way of knowing.

It is a good story, but much of it is fantasy.
A soldier's yarn, or a composite of many such yarns.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 10:14 AM

I find the concept of winning or losing a debate with people you do not know or care for, on an internet forum that does not matter, quite absurd. While most people like to discuss things in a lively way and are prepared to give and take a little, there are others just want to win at any cost. Therein lies insanity and the root of most of these arguments. There are also those who like to fan the flames but when they get their fingers burned they run off crying to Mummy. It takes all sorts I suppose...


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 10:17 AM

Jim, an 18 pounder is heavy in that you would not want it to run over your foot, but it is not "heavy artillery."
It is a field gun.
http://www.dennisstinton.co.uk/artillery-ww1


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 10:18 AM

Idiot. The shells that fell into the Liffey came from their own troops returning fire.

Are you capable of reading anything without getting it wrong.


Don't bother to respond to that I already know the answer.


Now just ask yourself where the shells that missed the flagpole exploded?


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 10:33 AM

No Rag. You need to read it again.
According to the story, it was shells from the one pounder, fired up at the flag, that landed in the Liffey.
That gun has a range of 4 500 yards, over 2 miles, and fired at a high angle that is how far they would go.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 10:36 AM

"Steve, I was repeating a truth not a lie."

Did you or did you not say that AJP Taylor's book was fraudulent, according to Wheatcroft? YES.

Did Wheatcroft say that AJP Taylor's book was fraudulent? NO.

Conclusion??


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 10:51 AM

Yes Professor the 1lb shells were fired by British troops and landed in the Liffey just where the Helga was lying and she fired back with 12 pounders. Shells going all over the place but as teriblossom would tell us all very disciplined and fired with precision following exacting procedures.

My arse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 11:21 AM

Dear Jom (A name he gave himself Raggy By the way - I rather liked it and retained the use of it)

This is heavy Artillery and the link below shows where it was deployed please use the link provided to show where Heavy Artillery was deployed in Dublin in 1916:

British Heavy Artillery 1914 to 1918

Now here is what was used in Dublin in 1916, they are Field Artillery pieces + a 12 pounder Naval QF Gun + a Naval 1 pounder Gun:


Naval 12 pounder


18 pounder Field Gun

Naval 1 pounder Gun - note shoulder rest



See the difference Jom?


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 11:52 AM

"This is heavy Artillery and the link below shows where it was deployed please use the link provided to show where Heavy Artillery was deployed in Dublin in 1916:"
Not again - you've had the statement based on the Firemen's logs.
I responded to all your points - as this seems to be the only one you want to challenge - I assume we have agreement on the rest.
"A name he gave himself Raggy By the way "
Another example of your small-mindedness - don't you find it a little pathetic to substitute typos for argument - which we are all prone to - you use my typo because your imagination doesn't extend to creating your own, Terrybyte - .
"I rather liked it and retained the use of it"
"Jom" - utterly earth-shattering -
Keith has not responded to one single point I have just put up - confirmation of his on-going claim of 'honesty'
Try again:
"26 Apr 16 - 07:14 AM"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 12:18 PM

Jim, a fireman may not understand the difference between heavy and field artillery.
There was nothing bigger than an 18 pounder in Dublin, and that is a field gun.

Steve, having given the full quote, I later conflated the two different disparaging words he used to dismiss each author into one.
No deceit. No change of meaning.
He rubbished both, and supported the findings of present day historians which was my case.

Rag, so I was right and the idiocy was yours.
An apology is in order.

The story teller said that the one pounder fired at the flag atop Bolands Mill tower from 400 yards.
Those shells would go far beyond the Liffey.

The story teller also says,
"the one pounder's return shot coming so close to hitting the Helga that the resultant explosion soaked their crew!"

There is less explosive in such a shell than a handgrenade.
The spray would not reach the deck, never mind soak the crew.
The whole yarn is fantasy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 12:22 PM

Jim,
Keith has not responded to one single point I have just put up - confirmation of his on-going claim of 'honesty'

That is because I am not aware of any unanswered points.
I KEEP asking you put them to me.
Why don't you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 01:20 PM

Congratulations, Keith, for changing the English language in order to make "rather vulgar" mean the same thing as "fraudulent." While you're at it, would you also like to make "lie" mean the same thing as "truth?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 01:44 PM

Some other bits from Raggy's link:

Dubliners cheered the British troops dragging the 1 pounder gun landed from the Helga into position to fire on the rebels.

Who was it that hoisted the flag on a top to deliberately mislead and misdirect fire thereby potentially putting civilian lives at risk - Eamon DeValera wasn't it Raggy? But as your link states - No lives were lost in the Artillery dual your link describes.

The link showing Liberty Hall shows that the gun-fire from the Helga wasn't too shoddy judging by the entry holes that can be seen.

Jom, as Keith A states Firemen probably had no idea what Heavy Artillery was, remember in 1914 the British didn't have any and unless the Firemen of Dublin kept themselves abreast of the changes being wrought in the army of Great Britain then there was no reason why they would know the difference - Sort of like you and Raggy they'd be clueless.

Now tell us all what Heavy Artillery Units of the British Army were deployed in Dublin on the 24th April 1916.

You have still to demonstrate where and when you have shot me down.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 01:51 PM

Steve, I had already quoted the separate words of dismissal he used to rubbish them.
I did not change the meaning.
He rubbished and dismissed them both, as I did, and endorsed the findings of current historians, as I do.

His whole article endorsed the case I was making.
I had no need to misrepresent him, and I did not.

And that was in 2014, and its all you can put up against me.
My reputation is intact Steve.
Your accusation, "we often find we can't believe a word you say." can not be substantiated, like so many assertions you make.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 02:18 PM

"The obscene profit in ceramic poppies was presented as a linked fact."

Come on then Jom provide us with a link that supports your preposterous claim with regard to the Ceramic Poppies.

Here are some actual facts 888,246 poppies made, cost of manufacture, packing and transport ~£8 million (Cost per poppy £9). All poppies sold for £25 each generating £22,206,150 leaving ~£14 million to be split between six nominated charities by the Royal British Legion.

"Charities benefiting from the Tower of London poppies are set for a £1 million boost after George Osborne announced he will waive the VAT from the sale of the ceramic flowers."

The British public did not lose out as this £1.1 million would be made up with resulting fines levied on Banks caught up in the Libor Scandal. So Jom Charities benefited to the tune of over £15 million. Now what obscene profits are you wittering on about


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 02:29 PM

I'd give up if I were you, Steve. If you tell a lie enough times some people will believe it. You and I and many others know the truth and all that matters is that you know really.

I can't recall how often I have used this quote. Just once for ake, twice for someone else and the rest for Keith. Are you sure your in-laws speak the same language? :-D

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone. "It means just what I choose it to mean - neither more or less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master - that's all."
   
Lewis Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 02:36 PM

Just remind me cherriblossom about how good the accuracy and precision of shelling a known target is. .What was it you said, something like aim, amend,correct and then hit the target. Precision I think came into it somewhere

I have a bit of a problem when one part of the British forces are raining shells down on another part of the British forces. Especially when you consider that one part of the British forces where in fact tethered on a stretch of quite a narrow river in full view of the population of the city they were trying to subdue.

Exactium my arseium. Couldn't hit a barn door at five paces. Hope you could do better when you were doing the firing, although I somehow doubt it.

Go back to playing at being soldiers, you seem to be slightly better at that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 02:44 PM

Hey Cherryblossom you still haven't responded to my earlier questions.

Can you tell us the percentage of your practise artillery firing was accurate:

1. From the first shot.

2. Overall.

3. Would your figures have been achievable in 1916.

Don't bother with the last one I think everyone knows the answer to that already.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 02:50 PM

Yet another own goal Raggy:

"in full view of the population of the city they were trying to subdue."

Would that be the population that was cheering the British troops on Raggy? The population that DeValera purposely put at risk, while at the same time claiming to represent - I'd have told him to f**k-off and represent somebody else, in 1916 preferably German?

Ranging for NGFS? Two possibly three shots to direct the guns onto target then once the order "Fire for effect" is given there can be anything up to 60 shells on their way to the target before the next shell lands. Even HMS Belfast tied up in the Pool of London when in commission could manage 120 6" shells - I believe that she was once used to stop an attack by a Panzer Division that was threatening one of the landings in Italy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 03:40 PM

Not answering the questions yet Cheeriblossom. Trying to fudge and deflect as per normal.

The British troops with a gun apiece were firing at each other
.............. wonderful military joined up thinking and co-ordination there.

Not just for one shot apiece but for numerous shots apiece and neither managed to hit a static target a matter of a few hundreds yards away.

(That is each other, not the flag which, bless 'em, they did manage to hit once, three cheers for the Royal Navy hip, hip ..... OK don't bother)

Yet another example of the might of the British Empire in all it's glory.

What the hell HMS Belfast has to do with this particular discussion I don't know .......... except for it is another feeble attempt to deflect criticism away from your beloved, but inept armed forces.

Go back to your toy soldiers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 03:57 PM

" Yet another own goal Raggy: in full view of the population of the city they were trying to subdue."

Exactly that Cherrycola. The British forces were trying to subdue the city.

The views of the resident population counted for naught whether they supported the rising or not. I doubt if a consensus of opinion was taken ............... unless you of course, with your wonderful insight into military intelligence, know different.

PS Do not know what an oxymoron is?


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 07:30 PM

The British troops with a gun apiece were firing at each other
.............. wonderful military joined up thinking and co-ordination there.

Not just for one shot apiece but for numerous shots apiece and neither managed to hit a static target a matter of a few hundreds yards away.

(That is each other, not the flag which, bless 'em, they did manage to hit once, three cheers for the Royal Navy hip, hip ..... OK don't bother)


Oh dear, how sad, never mind Raggy another own goal based on ignorance. As far as gunnery goes you know nothing, and even when you supply the link you completely fail to understand what it very clearly stated. Just for you I will take you through it. It is no surprise to me at all that no-one was killed and that HMY Helga even although tied up alongside the wall was not hit.

Go back and read what I said was required to obtain a "Firing Solution". Then piece together how many elements the gunners firing did not have.

Both the Soldiers of the Sherwood Foresters and the crew of the Helga thought that they were under fire from rebel artillery. Neither the Sherwood Foresters or the crew of the Helga knew where this perceived rebel artillery fire was coming from and guess what Raggy? If you don't know where your target is you stand no chance of hitting it.

Without any shadow of a doubt fire from Helga's 12 pounder hit Liberty Hall, Bolands Mill and Sackville Street. The fire on Liberty Hall (Helga's longest engagement) lasted only three and a half hours.

The fires in Sackville Street were initially started not by artillery fire but by looters, in the following days both sides started fires to cover their movements and to hinder attacks. The fire in the Irish Times was started when rolls of print paper caught fire after the building was hit by a HE shell, the Druggists when oil caught fire, there is no evidence at all regarding incendiary shells being used. The majority of soldiers deployed from England were straight out of training and had been waiting at Watford to be deployed in France.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Apr 16 - 07:41 PM

The views of the resident population counted for naught whether they supported the rising or not. I doubt if a consensus of opinion was taken ............... unless you of course, with your wonderful insight into military intelligence, know different.

Certainly the views of the population meant nothing to the rebels.

As to a consensus Rags who was it the citizens of Dublin were cheering as they hauled that gun through the streets? When food supplies started to run low throughout the city who was it that opened the warehouses and distributed food to where it was needed? Give you a hint it certainly was not Pearse, Connolly & Co.

When they abandoned the GPO and moved into Moore Street they again deliberately put civilians at risk as when they moved in the civilians tried to flee, unfortunately nobody on the rebel side cared enough to let the soldiers know that, finally to prevent further loss of civilian life and in an impossible situation Pearse and Connolly decided to surrender - after six days the rebel Irish Government made a decision with the best interests of the people in mind - six effin days too late.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Apr 16 - 03:56 AM

"Both the Soldiers of the Sherwood Foresters and the crew of the Helga thought that they were under fire from rebel artillery. Neither the Sherwood Foresters or the crew of the Helga knew where this perceived rebel artillery fire was coming from and guess what Raggy? IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHERE YOUR TARGET IS YOU STAND NO CHANCE OF HITTING IT"
(Terribus quote, my capital)

So, they were just firing at something they thought might be vaguely over there somewhere.

Now MOST people would describe that as indiscriminate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Apr 16 - 04:11 AM

Rag,

I have a bit of a problem when one part of the British forces are raining shells down on another part of the British forces


Eye witnesses sometimes lie, and myths are created.
He claims that the gunners, suddenly provided with a game changing weapon, use it to blaze away at a flagpole instead of the rebels.
Why?

He says that the shells landed near the Helga which is ridiculous. They would have landed two miles further on.

He says the spray soaked the crew. Such puny rounds could not even splash the deck.

The log of the Helga would report coming under fire if it really happened.
It does not. The whole thing is a fantasy. A lie on which a myth has grown.

Log of Helga
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=XxV4CwAAQBAJ&pg=PT52&lpg=PT52&dq=log+of+the++helga+dublin&source=bl&ots=DXOF7sGF7f&sig=-Y1GA


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Apr 16 - 04:14 AM

A definition of indiscriminate fire by Mr Teribus from a day or two back "By the way indiscriminate fire is when you just blaze away in a general direction for an indeterminate time with no attempt made to identify or hit a specific target"

Hmmmmmmmm


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Apr 16 - 04:22 AM

When you can produce the log of the Helga and not some snippets from another cut and paste maybe someone will take notice professor.

By the way Teriblossom seems to think they did shell Sackville Street I'm sure you said they didn't.

Quote from Cherryblossom "Without any shadow of a doubt fire from Helga's 12 pounder hit Liberty Hall, Bolands Mill and Sackville Street"


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Apr 16 - 05:17 AM

Thanks for that link Keith very interesting.

Raggy please indicate where I state that I believed the tale about the Sherwood Foresters and the crew of the Helga exchanging fire? You crowed about it and gleefully wittered on about how they couldn't hit a stationary target - I merely offered you an explanation as to why under such circumstances they wouldn't hit each other.

Toddle off to a nice quiet place and sit down and read your "Volunteers" story one more time and this time read it with a healthy dose of scepticism, ask yourself how he while under fire in a city centre that was under fire and under siege manage to:

1: Observe what the Sherwood Foresters were doing from their position whilst simultaneously being able to observe what the gunners on the Helga were doing.

2: How was he capable of witnessing respective fall of shot simultaneously.

You see Raggy it simply does not add up to any sentient human being, but makes a great story for the gullible.

According to RTE's chronological account of the Easter Rising:

Tuesday 25th April 1916 HMY Helga opened fire at Bolands Mill at 20:15 hitting the upper floors and damaging them

Wednesday 26th April 1916 between 08:30 and 12:00 HMY Helga fired on Liberty Hall. The building was destroyed and the guns of HMY Helga were turned on targets in Sackville Street. I have no reason to believe that RTE or their researchers lied in formulating their summary of events.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Apr 16 - 05:36 AM

"Both the Soldiers of the Sherwood Foresters and the crew of the Helga thought that they were under fire from rebel artillery. Neither the Sherwood Foresters or the crew of the Helga knew where this perceived rebel artillery fire was coming from and guess what Raggy? If you don't know where your target is you stand no chance of hitting it."

Your quote Terribombast, it would seem that you too believe the report.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Apr 16 - 05:45 AM

Nice bit of selective cut-n-paste there Raggy - Now look at all of it:

never mind Raggy another own goal based on ignorance. As far as gunnery goes you know nothing, and even when you supply the link you completely fail to understand what it very clearly stated. Just for you I will take you through it. It is no surprise to me at all that no-one was killed and that HMY Helga even although tied up alongside the wall was not hit.

Go back and read what I said was required to obtain a "Firing Solution". Then piece together how many elements the gunners firing did not have.

Both the Soldiers of the Sherwood Foresters and the crew of the Helga thought that they were under fire from rebel artillery. Neither the Sherwood Foresters or the crew of the Helga knew where this perceived rebel artillery fire was coming from and guess what Raggy? If you don't know where your target is you stand no chance of hitting it."


Now where in any of that do I state that I believe that it actually happened?

Also please refrain from sidestepping MY questions - Tell us how it would be possible for your volunteer to see what he said he had seen.

As to fires being started by British Artillery fire Raggy. Looting started on Sackville Street at 15:30 on Monday 24th April 1916, the fires were started by looters in Sackville Street around 20:30 that night - OK then Raggy when did the British bring up their first piece of artillery? About a day later wasn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Apr 16 - 06:01 AM

I think the proof of the pudding is YOUR statement:

"Neither the Sherwood Foresters or the crew of the Helga knew where this perceived rebel artillery fire was coming from ............"


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Apr 16 - 11:36 AM

Pray tell Raggy what proof? The statement you quote proves nothing. I stand by what I said. I was responding to your idiotic:

"Not just for one shot apiece but for numerous shots apiece and neither managed to hit a static target a matter of a few hundreds yards away."

Hardly a few hundreds (sic) yards away, and I was explaining to you why under the circumstances fancifully imagined by your "volunteer" that neither gun crew could possibly hit the other - no firing solution. There was no indiscriminate fire Rags if there had been then a damn sight more than 260 civilians would have been killed. No heavy artillery Jom because if there had been then a damn sight more than 485 people would have been killed. No incendiary rounds as none existed in the whole of Ireland in April 1916. No blue-on-blue friendly fire incident as described by Raggy's volunteer.

Now then Rags tell us how it would be possible for a man under fire to witness what he said he witnessed? If you cannot do that then that puts his whole story into question doesn't it?

Jom's gone awfully quiet of the poppies and the obscene profits hasn't he? Mind you he is not alone. Fergie has remained silent since he was asked to tell us when and where Joe Offer asked him to pen his tuppence worth and Thompson doesn't seem to be able to tell us where he got his wildly exaggerated figures from (30,000 British troops whereas the actual number deployed to Ireland was 15,000 + 1,000 policemen of the RIC in Dublin at the time. At the height of the fighting the 1250 volunteers were engaged by 4,000 British troops) and where the 1.2 million Arabs came from who fought for the British Army in the First World War - 500,000 of them getting killed would you credit it - I certainly don't but then I don't just spout about being sceptical - I actually check-out statements made by others.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 16 - 11:46 AM

Hmm. Your "checking" can get a little sloppy at times, as I demonstrated at 04.50 am yesterday.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Apr 16 - 12:26 PM

Hilarious Shaw - Is that really the best you can come up with?? The instance that caused you to start dancing on the head of a pin was one where - if you had read the previous posts - it was blindingly obvious the pint that Keith A was making.

Better get onto Jim Carroll for going on about the Black & Tans terrorising Ireland for two years - in actual fact is was less than 15 months - What a crime eh? As stated previously you want go get a life.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Apr 16 - 01:26 PM

Any observations on the Rising Steve?
Nothing from you so far.

If you only come here to foment off topic arguments by making inflammatory and false accusations against anyone who disagrees with your fellow lefties, you are just trolling.

Please post about the rising and not about contributors.
(Likewise Greg and DTG)


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 16 - 01:57 PM

Well, Keith, I didn't know you were a moderator now! Inflammatory, no. I have stated only facts. False, never. Anyone can view that thread and see exactly what you did. You made a grossly inaccurate characterisation of what your source said (yes, yes, you quoted it in full, then you later went on to put words into his mouth that he neither said nor meant - when are you actually going to come clean, Keith? Do you actually want people to trust what you say or not?) and you refused to back down. It's important, Keith, in any context at all in which you're being taken to task because it shows that you are unreliable in the extreme. Perhaps you were once a Sun reporter. It's what they do all the time. As for the rising, I've already said that those events informed Irish history from then right to this day, a point disputed here by some whose agenda is firmly anti-Irish republican. And I'm certainly not getting into squabbles about who fired what at whom and from where. I've been to Dublin, seen the bullet holes and sated my fired-up curiosity. That's as much as I care to share with you two ill-tempered fellows, but it's on-topic, no?

If you want to make a "blindingly obvious" point, Teribus, it's best to make it blindingly accurately, not blindly inaccurately. You KNOW that Keith misquoted but wouldn't correct himself, don't you? Yes, of course you do. Unfortunately, you define yourself by those who you choose to close ranks with. I wouldn't mind betting you get road rage too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Apr 16 - 02:05 PM

Hmmmmmmm I don't think I've mentioned a VOLUNTEER witnessing anything. That's a figment of YOUR imagination.

Just as a point of information Bolands Mill is about 700 metres from the river. I could possibly stroll that, even with my aged impediments, in less than 15 minutes.

If as is stated in the article the "engagement" took over an hour I could have been there and back twice.


I do hope you're not going to go follow the inane path of the professor and attempt to prove the unprovable. We know where that dead end stops.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Apr 16 - 02:10 PM

Ah! One more thing. If I was a young man I could probably clear that distance in about 3 minutes (or less)

Not that I'd want to with British troops using sophisticated techniques of aim, target, correct or whatever it was you stated.

No way I might get hit !!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 16 - 03:14 PM

"Better get onto Jim Carroll for going on about the Black & Tans terrorising Ireland for two years - in actual fact is was less than 15 months - What a crime eh?"

Well that's about as bad as your sixteen months turning into two years when it came to the timing of Keith's Big Fib! A statement that, like all the others, you never failed to "check-out!" And you think I'm hilarious. Hey, do you think we could do a Morecambe and Wise double act?


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Apr 16 - 04:42 AM

The incident which was described in the link you provided and which you were so happy about is:

1: Not verified

2: For a number of logical and physical reasons totally unbelievable

If you wish to believe fairy stories - fill your boots - only please do not expect others to be so gullible and don't react so childishly when your dearly held myths are challenged.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Apr 16 - 04:51 AM

Nothing from you either, Keith. You just quote other peoples work

Not true at all Dave.
I expressed my views in my first post, but Jim rubbished them so I backed them with the findings of historians.

Have you expressed any views on the rising at all?
Do you have any?
You, Steve and Greg only come to the thread to stir up off-topic arguments.
Why do you do that? It is trolling.
Please stop.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Apr 16 - 05:01 AM

I know it's hard when your heroes are shown to be men of straw. This is just another example of the ineptitude (at times) of the British Military machine. You will just have to learn, like the rest of us, to live with it.





Doesn't stop a few of us from having a giggle though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Apr 16 - 06:29 AM

I expressed my views in my first post, but Jim rubbished them so I backed them with the findings of historians.

Here are your first two posts on the thread, Keith.

Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 04:13 AM

This BBC TV programme also questions the idea that Home Rule was advanced at all by those acts of violence.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b075f1f2

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Subject: RE: Easter Rising
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 04:15 AM

"In 1916, at the height of WW1, armed insurgents rose up against the British in Dublin, the empire's second city. Using secret documents, cabinet papers, intelligence reports, military orders, diaries and letters, Michael Portillo pieces together the story of this uprising from the British point of view.

Was Dublin just another battle at a time of war where military justice was immediate and brutal or, by their actions, did the British men who wrote these documents hasten the end of an empire? Did an unlikely band of Irish rebels, led by playwrights and poets, do more to advance the cause of Irish freedom in five days than nationalist politicians had done in the previous 50 years, or did they damage the cause and condemn the island to a history of violence? Michael looks for the answers. This is the story of Ireland's Easter Rising as told by British politicians, soldiers, spies and bureaucrats."


So, a link to a program by Michael Portillo and a write up of that program with nary an opinion between them! Not indulging in those little pastry products stuffed with pig meat again are we Keith? Or is it, as I suspect, a new meaning of either views or first post that no one but you has considered yet? As to

Have you expressed any views on the rising at all?

No, have you? and

Do you have any?


Yes, have you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Apr 16 - 08:21 AM

Even harder Raggy when your heroes are shown to be liars and tellers of tall and improbable tales upon which their "fame" is based. As to ineptitude Liberty Hall abandoned within four hours, De Valera hunkered down and forced to play no real part in the events of the week while he put the lives of innocent civilians at risk in order to save his little band, the "Rising" brought to nought in under a week with less than 500 people killed. I think that showed remarkable restraint considering that this battle that basically raw recruits straight out of training took part in was fought in the centre of a city with a population of about 310,000. But never mind Raggy never let facts get in the way of your fairy tales, but everytime those fairy tales and myths that you love so dearly are trotted out I will be there to knock them flat, couldn't care less about making any attempt to convince you or your pals of anything as you are blessed with a monstrously closed mind, but others reading it will be a damned sight better informed.

Oh by the way I do not think you would be allowed just to wander where you please in the middle of a battle so my question still stands how could your volunteer witness what he said he witnessed and how could he observe fall of shot from two different guns firing in opposite directions. Bolands Mill is set back from the Liffey isn't it Raggy? De Valera put a flag up on a near by tower to mislead and misdirect fire from the Helga away from his men and his position which would mean that from the Liffy Helga's gun would firing in what direction? For the fall of shot from Helga to be mistaken for rebel fire where would the Sherwood Foresters have to have been. You see Raggy old son you simply cannot be in two places at the same time and there simply was no vantage point in the area from which you could witness the guns or fall of shot as described in the link you provided.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Apr 16 - 08:38 AM

Ah you mean people wouldn't be allowed to wander round, that's possibly why YOU mentioned:

"As to a consensus Rags who was it the citizens of Dublin were cheering as they hauled that gun through the streets? When food supplies started to run low throughout the city who was it that opened the warehouses and distributed food to where it was needed? Give you a hint it certainly was not Pearse, Connolly & Co."

Or perhaps it was why you mentioned:

"Dubliners cheered the British troops dragging the 1 pounder gun landed from the Helga into position to fire on the rebels"

The SAME gun that later fired in the direction of "rebel" fire.

Your "facts" don't add up do they.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Apr 16 - 10:30 AM

Thanks Dave.
I should have said my fourth post, first day. Sorry.

"Home rule had already been agreed.
It was not brought forward by one day.
The killing was all for nothing. There could have been a peaceful transition and no civil war.
The fools, the fools."

I have never denied that my views on history are informed by reading history.
That is what normal, intelligent people do.
(But not you apparently!)

They are still my views.
Where do you get your views on historical events Dave?
Are they just whims?

Steve, I can not remember you expressing a view on the rising.
Will you remind us?
Was it just one post out of all your others not about the rising at all, but just stirring up off-topic arguments with anyone who disagrees with your fellow lefties.

That still makes you a troll, and you are still trying to restart an off-topic argument.
Please stop.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Apr 16 - 11:04 AM

It's important that readers of this thread know that you are not reliable. And no, I'm not doing your homework for you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Apr 16 - 11:17 AM

"Your "facts" don't add up do they."

Not to you they don't Raggy, but they would to others who bothered to read about the Easter Rising. Tell me again Raggy the Volunteers under Connolly and Pearse, they did assemble in the centre of Dublin and they did occupy buildings didn't they? They read their proclamation and then sat back and waited. I take it that the groups of men assigned to various positions were ordered to remain at their posts just in case those nasty Brits came along. And that gets us onto the other participants those Nasty Brits who having had to be rushed into Dublin would be on the move and would be free to move about as required in order to attack the more or less static volunteers occupying buildings. So with regard to your last post I have not got the foggiest clue about the point you are trying to make.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Apr 16 - 12:47 PM

Another fact relating to the Joemulvey link you supplied Raggy - your link states that this supposed "artillery duel" took place on Thursday 27th April 1916, and was initiated because Helga fired on Bolands Mill whereupon De Valera raised a Green Flag on an adjacent Tower to misdirect fire from the Helga. Unfortunately Raggy the only time the Helga fired on Bolands Mill was at 20:15 on the evening of the 25th April, now does that register? She did not fire at all on the 27th and after hitting Bolands Mill on the 25th she did not fire on Bolands Mill again. The Sherwood Foresters with the 1 pound hand served and aimed gun from the Helga in 12 shots managed to hit the flagpole at a range of 400 metres - now what diameter was that flag pole Raggy? Bloody small target at 400 metres eh? Especially for a gun on a temporary lash-up of a mounting that is being aimed and fired by someone holding it.

The story told in the link you provided is utter codswallop.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Thompson
Date: 28 Apr 16 - 12:58 PM

It was actually 24 April to 30 April when Thomas MacDonagh stood down his garrison and the other garrisons under him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Apr 16 - 01:32 PM

See, Steve, I got him to admit a mistake. You owe me £5 ;-) Your turn now:-D

Where do you get your views on historical events Dave?
Are they just whims?


No, they are not. If by historic events you mean pointless slaughter of innocent people then I believe it is always wrong. People can argue over who started it and whether it was justified until they are blue in the face and it will not bring anyone back. My view is that unless people learn from past mistakes they will continue making them and that blame allocation will not help with that.

I also believe, as a fellow expert on historic events of yours, Hilo, said that "Not everyone is hoodwinked by glossy books in a shop."


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Apr 16 - 01:32 PM

Keith says:
    Have you expressed any views on the rising at all?
    Do you have any?
    You, Steve and Greg only come to the thread to stir up off-topic arguments.
    Why do you do that? It is trolling.
    Please stop.


He's right. Such posts and the name-calling serve only to carry on the nastiness that has driven so many people away from our BS section, and that made it impossible to leave this thread in the music section. These posts add nothing at all but animosity to the discussion. They convey no information.

I suppose, though, that such animosity may well be a good demonstration of the spirit of the Easter Rising. The "rebels" were so sure of the rightness of their cause, that they saw no purpose in continuing a respectful conversation with the British. The British, at this point, were more than willing to accommodate the wishes of those who demanded independence for Ireland, but the "rebels" believed that only bloodshed would prove the righteousness of their cause.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Apr 16 - 01:42 PM

Ah Thompson does that mean that V-J Day is also wrong by years to take into account the surrender of the last of the "hold-outs". The Rising as such was over once Pearse and Connolly formally surrendered unconditionally to Brigadier-General Lowe on the 29th April 1916.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Apr 16 - 02:04 PM

Straw ............ clutch ........... straw ........ Once again Cherriblossom you are trying to divert the conversation away the main thrust.

Stick to the point.

One British gun fired on another British gun, the second British gun having been "borrowed" from the ship of the first.

Brill !!!

PS Before you deny this, you have gone along with this scenario for some little time before you worked out it didn't match up to your preconceived ideas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Apr 16 - 02:24 PM


One British gun fired on another British gun, the second British gun having been "borrowed" from the ship of the first.


No it did not.
The one pounder was at street level with several big building between it and Helga.
Helga could not see it and could not fire on it because of all the buildings in the way.

Similarly, the one pounder shells fired at a high angle at the flag pole, would land about 2 miles beyond the Liffey.
Helga dd not report coming under fire or returning fire.
It never happened.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Apr 16 - 02:34 PM

Steve, I have found your contribution the the discussion of the Rising.

"The rights and wrongs of the 1916 events are, well, not exactly irrelevant, but they happened and they are water under the bridge. "


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Apr 16 - 02:57 PM

Keithy baby ............ where did the 1lb gun come from ??


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Apr 16 - 03:03 PM

Question: You state categorically that the Helga did not report incoming fire.

Where do you get that information from. IF you have information that STATES that please share it with us, because I for one don't believe you have THAT specific information YOU are making that up.

As for the Helga returning fire even your mate accepts that DID happen. That is logged. That is FACT.

Now, Who is lying Terribus or YOU.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Apr 16 - 04:15 PM

the Easter Rising. The "rebels" were so sure of the rightness of their cause, that they saw no purpose in continuing a respectful conversation with the British.

Joe, you're just displaying woeful ignorance of the entire situation that existed between England & Ireland ranging over 400 years.

I'm surprised at you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Apr 16 - 05:10 PM

Greg, there's no question about the righteousness of the cause - Great Britain occupied Ireland for 400 years. But I think that very same righteousness blinded the rebels, and drove them to fight in this uprising when there was no longer need for violence - Great Britain had agreed to Home Rule two years earlier.

Now, it's also true that the execution of the Easter Rising participants was a totally unnecessary act on the part of the British. It appears to me that it was those executions that turned the tide of public opinion to favor Home Rule. It may have hastened the process of Home Rule, but I wonder if it also inspired the partition of Ireland.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Apr 16 - 05:32 PM

Joe, I am English, but i think the rebels had no choice but to use violence.
Joe, my great grandfather was chancellor of the exchequer in Disraeli's government, Sir Michael Hicks Beach, one of the pillars of the UK establishment, the sort of people who forced Ireland into poverty.
imo, the Irish had no choice


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Apr 16 - 06:17 PM

Hi, Dick -Although I'm a pacifist and would prefer alternatives, I have no logical question about the need for the Irish rebels to use violence - earlier in their struggle. But what good did it do them to use violence and get themselves executed in April 1916, 2 years after the Home Rule bill was passed by Parliament? That's a question that hasn't been answered to my satisfaction. Maybe there was good reason - but I don't understand it.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 03:46 AM

Dick,
the rebels had no choice but to use violence.

The choice was a peaceful transition as guaranteed by the 1914 Act.
That was the wish of the people.

Dave,
slaughter of innocent people then I believe it is always wrong.

Good for you Dave, but so does everyone else.
Surely you will condemn a gang of people armed by a foreign enemy, against the will of the people in a democratic state, starting an insurrection by murdering an unarmed policeman and culminating in the death of hundreds, mostly civilians, and leading to a bloody civil war and thousands more deaths.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 03:56 AM

"One British gun fired on another British gun, the second British gun having been "borrowed" from the ship of the first.

Rags apart from a single unsubstantiated story recounting this supposed incident there is no evidence of what you state above ever having happened. If you actually think that it did then get digging and prove it.

"As for the Helga returning fire even your mate accepts that DID happen. That is logged. That is FACT."

Ehmmm hate to draw your attention to this Raggy but no that is not fact, but as you like FACTS try this one:

Your link states that this supposed incident occurred on the 27th of April 1916. The Helga only fired on Boland's Mill on one occasion during that Easter, on the 25th April around 20:15. That is actually logged - it was one of the chronological steps researchers for RTE noted. On the following day 26th April they also noted that Helga fired at Liberty Hall between 08:30 and 12:00 and destroyed it.

Your story is only that - a fairy tale, but as you introduced it into the debate, and Keith and myself who have challenged it giving the reasons for our scepticism, it is up to you to prove it.

"Now, it's also true that the execution of the Easter Rising participants was a totally unnecessary act on the part of the British. It appears to me that it was those executions that turned the tide of public opinion to favor Home Rule. It may have hastened the process of Home Rule, but I wonder if it also inspired the partition of Ireland."

Well noted Joe, the reason that the partition of Ireland came about was because out of a population of just over 3 million, almost 1 million wanted no part of an independent Ireland, by and large that remains the case to this day.

In 1921 de Valera was one of those who sent Michael Collins to negotiate an agreement that de Valera knew he was never going to accept - Collins was on a hiding to nothing - but in the ensuing Civil War that followed the Pro-Treaty Free Staters won. The constitutional territorial claim to the north by the Republic of Ireland was what was subsequently used by the "men of the gun" to cause murder and mayhem down through the years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 04:00 AM

Allow me to paraphrase:

Surely you will condemn a government of a foreign state, against the will of the people in a oppressed and subjugated nation, for starting an insurrection by murdering an tens of thousands of unarmed civilians over seven centuries, denying them education, decent housing, land, the vote, which culminating in the war of independence which led to the death of hundreds, mostly civilians, and leading to a bloody civil war and thousands more deaths.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 04:10 AM

Strange that Teribombast, when either yourself or the professor glean something from the Internet everyone is supposed to accept it as fact. When I glean something from the Internet it is suddenly a fairytale.

As I have said many times before the armed forces aren't going to make public things that show them in a bad light. You must know that if you actually served in the Navy.

I know you won't acknowledge that to be the truth but we both know it is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 04:13 AM

Hi, Raggytash - I think it's clear to most of us that most of the people in Ireland felt they were in an "oppressed and subjugated nation." But what I'm reading tells me that many people in Ireland thought that the rebels went too far in their violence. If a nation is oppressed, does that mean that there are no limits on the measures people can take to oppose that oppression - even when the oppressor has begun to withdraw?

That being said, it is appalling to me that the British chose to execute the leaders of the Easter Rising. I can't figure out why they did that. In carrying out those executions, they lost any claim to the moral high ground - and they made martyrs out of those who were executed.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 04:24 AM

Twaddle Raggy complete and utter twaddle - as usual

Prior to Henry II's incursion there was no "Irish Nation" as you fondly seem to think.

For vast tracts of the 700 years you mention the island was a united nation and existed in a state of peace and prosperity.

Various discontented elements in Ireland who sought advancement were cynically used by various foreign powers down through the course of those years to foment trouble in Ireland.

Meddling by the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland robbed people of opportunity.

"Sir Michael Hicks Beach, one of the pillars of the UK establishment, the sort of people who forced Ireland into poverty.
imo, the Irish had no choice"


Good heavens GSS how on earth did "he/they" manage to do that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 04:25 AM

There's an old saying Joe One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

From 1169AD various incarnations of English and then British forces had kept the indigenous population in appalling conditions. Over 700 years. What do you really expect the people to do.

I do note that the people who supposably cheered the British troops were not too slow in taking advantage of the situation to loot and pillage. They did so because many of them were destitute. A situation caused by the very same government who troops they were cheering?


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 04:25 AM

My, muy my, this pair of clowns still in denial and still abusing the Irish people and their history - and still telling porkies.
You have answered none of the questions Keith and your have you are still claiming that Independence was "inevitable" despite the fact that Britain altered the Treaty (which was rejected in it's distorted form bt the Irish Parliamentarians in its distorted form) and still clings on to six counties despite the near century of inequality and bloodshed.
In claiming that you have answered the points I made you are lying, pure and simple - where have you ever dealt with the discrepency between permanent and the original proposal of full unity a year after WW1 ended - you haven't.
Question in full.
"The British parliament passed the act before the rising,"
And altered it in July 1916 to make the partition of the six counties permanent - it was originally intended that these counties (originally the whole of Ulster, but altered when it was realised that this would give the Catholics a majority in the North) would be partitioned until a year after the war ended.
Even the Parliamentary Irish rejected the re-written treaty - Redmond described it as "a betrayal"
The Republicans who took part in the Rising did so because they realised that Britain had no intention of ratifying any treaty that did not meet its own interests.
You have been given all this before, what part of this do you have problems with; if none, why are you raising it again and again and again.....?
Britain was finally forced to concede a form of Independence, at the threat of an alternative of "a signature or war", which lead to immediate Civil War in the 26 Counties, built in financial, political and land-owning injustice, inequality and hardship for the Catholic third of the six counties, and a near-century of unrest and bloodshed.
What problems do you have with any of this?"
Your claim to have answered it is simply not true - ignoring of facts and repetition is not an answer.
The destruction
I've come back to half-a-dozen invitations from history groups to attend talks by Irish researchers on The Rising - more to come.
Your description of the ignorance of the Irish people to their history is racist, pure and simple.
Your refusal to respond to the enormity of your attitude to them is a shining example of your dishonesty.
Was amused to be told that Terrytoon knows more about the destruction of Dublin than those on the ground attending to the damage at the time - nice to know we have such geniuses in our midst.
Sheesh - what a pair!!
I've just returned from a visit to Liverpool, during which the establishment and the forces of law and order were dealt a sharp lesson in what happens when the establishment tries to alter facts and re-write history - when will you people ever learn?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 04:38 AM

"Well noted Joe, the reason that the partition of Ireland came about was because out of a population of just over 3 million, almost 1 million wanted no part of an independent Ireland, by and large that remains the case to this day"

I'm a tad puzzled Terriblossom. The population of the 26 counties was about 3.1 million in 1911. Do the 1 million who wanted no part of an independent Ireland come from that number or are you mistaking that 1 million for the population of the 6 counties that comprise modern day Northern Ireland which was about 1.25 million of whom about 40% or half a million were Catholic.

If the 1 million came from the population of the 26 counties can be provide a link to your source.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 04:39 AM

" it is appalling to me that the British chose to execute the leaders of the Easter Rising"

Ill advised certainly, but the penalty for treason in time of war is death. The leaders of the Easter Rising had been in contact with the German Government since the outbreak of hostilities in August 1914. Immediately before the Easter Rising a ship carrying German arms was intercepted off the coast of Ireland and Sir Roger Casement was arrested after having landed on Banna Strand from a German Submarine.

In the aftermath of the Easter Rising some 3,500 were arrested and held, Courts Martial passed 90 death sentences, commuting all but 15 of them to five years imprisonment, those sentences ended up as being 1 year.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 04:53 AM

Raggy you seem to spend your entire life wandering around being puzzled, perhaps you should educate yourself by reading works that aren't works of fiction.

1 million I thought I said almost a million, but no matter, Steve Shaw in his pedantry will not take you to task about that as he would Keith or myself. None-the-less opposition to Home Rule and an independent Ireland was massive in the North, after all Raggy it was as a reaction to that opposition that the Irish Volunteers were formed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 05:07 AM

I am curious as to were you gain your information from. If it is from a reliable source, which is what you demand from other people, then fine tell us what the source is. If you read it on the back of your cornflakes packet it is not.

So some simple questions for you to answer.

1. Where do your figures come from.
2. Where do the almost 1 million come from.
3. What does that almost 1 million make as a percentage of the total   population of Ireland as it was in 1916.

The problem I have terribrandy is that I think your figures are a figment of your imagination.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 05:58 AM

Apart from being permanently puzzled Raggy you also seem to be good at asking questions and very poor at answering them. To quote your pal - I am not going to do your homework for you look the figures up yourself - guess what Raggy - you might actually learn something - but as I said previously you won't find them in fairy tales and works of fiction.

One observation though Raggy, where on earth did you get the idea that the entire population of Ireland wanted independence, was there no dissent or opposition in your fairy tale world? I can think of numerous groups throughout the length and breadth of Ireland whose continued well being rested with continued close ties to Great Britain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 06:18 AM

"German Government since the outbreak of hostilities in August 1914. "
A lie - Germany supplied weapons to the Republicans because they believed it would be a hindrance to Britain's war effort - the supplying of weapons was the only contact they had with the rebels and it had nothing whatever to do with the executions and was never claimed to be the reason - you have made that up - as you do.
Britain executed the rebel leaders as an example of what would happen if the Irish stepped out of line again, nothing more.   
As you don't link your claims, you have no evidence for your inventions.
Had wartime treason been the reason, everybody who participated in the rebellion would have been executed.
Incidentally, The Black and Tans served in Ireland from the end of 1919 to some time in 1921 (exact date hard to establish but many of the Tans joined the RIC and remained there up to 1922 - they were responsible for many of the atrocities committed by that took place during the War of Independence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 06:23 AM

As I suspected you have made figures up, are not prepared to substantiate them but expect the rest of us to believe them.

What you were trying to implicate is that one third of the total population was in favour of remaining with the union. In actually FACT you cannot justify such a claim.

If you wish to suggest that the protestant Irish wanted to remain within the union they, the protestants, in FACT made up less than 18% of the total population.

Yet more lies from your camp. No surprise there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 07:00 AM

Jim,
You have answered none of the questions Keith

That is because you won't tell me what they are!!
I KEEP ASKING YOU FOR THEM!

you are still claiming that Independence was "inevitable"

It was. Only the war delayed it.

Britain altered the Treaty
Yes, as a consequence of the rising.

and still clings on to six counties despite the near century of inequality and bloodshed.

No. British government and people would love to be rid of it, but the people of those counties keep voting to stay, and they are entitled to self determination.

A lie - Germany supplied weapons to the Republicans because they believed it would be a hindrance to Britain's war effort - the supplying of weapons was the only contact they had with the rebels

The rebels called them their "gallant allies!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 07:20 AM

Population 26 counties 1911, 3.1 4million.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_population_analysis
Population 6 couties 1911, 1.25 million.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_Northern_Ireland
Protestants in 26 counties 1911, 10%
http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/past/protestants_1861_1991.html

Notice that the percentage dropped rapidly after the rising, while the Catholic population in the North rose steadily.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 07:28 AM

And your point is? Apart from verifying my figures that is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 07:35 AM

You were wrong about the percentage of Catholics in the 6 counties Rag.
Only 34.4%
https://namawinelake.wordpress.com/2012/12/12/what-happens-in-2016-when-northern-irelands-catholics-are-on-a-par-with-protestant


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 07:47 AM

"I KEEP ASKING YOU FOR THEM!"
You claimed you had answered them - that was a lie.
This is the first time you have even pretended to address this one
"It was. Only the war delayed it."
It was forced through despite ongoing opposition by Tories and Unionists.
The Irish Parliamentarians accepted it only on the basis that partition would last no more than a year after the war ended.
The Rebels had no reason to believe it would be honoured at all, given the track record of British opposition to any form of Home Rule.
"Yes, as a consequence of the rising."
How did the Rising in any way bring about making partition permanent - bloody nonsense?
Lloyd George admitted it was due to pressure from the Unionists.
You are making this up - who has ever blamed the Rising for the changes - t was the Curragh Mutiny which brought those about.
"No. British government and people would love to be rid of it, "
Again - bloody nonsense - Britain ascertained a majority Unionist vote in the north by Gerrymandering the borders.
Originally, the plan was to partition the whole nine counties of Ulster, Britain dropped the three of them that would have given a Catholic majority in order to create a Protestant State.
"The rebels called them their "gallant allies!""
In providing weapons - no more - Ireland and the Irish did nothing to support Germany in the war.
It was an Imperial war and Ireland had spent centuries trying to get out of the Empire.
Where is your evidence that the Rebels did anything to suppoert Germany - propagands? - statements of support?...... nothing Keith - your claim is out-o-date jingoist propaganda.
"Occurring during Ireland's Revolutionary period, the Irish people's experience of the war was complex and its memory of it divisive. At the outbreak of the war, most Irish people, regardless of political affiliation, supported the war in much the same way as their British counterparts,[1] and both nationalist and unionist leaders initially backed the British war effort. Their followers, both Catholic and Protestant, served extensively in the British forces, many in three specially raised divisions with others in the Imperial and United States armies, John T. Prout being an example of an Irishman serving in the latter. Over 200,000 Irishmen fought in the war, in several theatres and either 30,000,[2] or, if one includes those who died serving in armies other than Britain's, 49,400 died.

In 1916, supporters of Irish independence from Great Britain took the opportunity of the ongoing war to proclaim an Irish Republic and to defend it in an armed rebellion against British rule in Dublin, a rebellion which Germany attempted to help. In addition, Britain's intention to impose conscription in Ireland in 1918 provoked widespread resistance and as a result remained unimplemented."
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 08:04 AM

It still doesn't add up to the one third that Terricola is claiming.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 08:52 AM

Keith
Would just like confirmation of your Bernard Manning-like contempt for the Irish people
I came back from Liverpool yesterday to six invitations to talks and exhibitions by researchers and commemorating the Rising as a major event in Irish history
Our television and newspapers are still carrying articles and programmes on the subject on a daily basis, and will be into the foreseeable future.
The International Ballad Conference in Limerick in July is dedicating a large part to The Rising and the same team that organised a two year long national project on Child Ballads, Aileen Lambert and Mick Fortune, backed by the National Library, have now embarked on a similar one on on this subject, several of the singers involved being regular contributors to this subject.
Jim Carroll
Do you honestly believe that such efforts would be put into celebrating "a contemptable joke" and "murder".
Don't expect a response to this - just puting your position into context.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 09:40 AM

This is what I have been looking for - factual information. Thanks to Jim and others, I now have a factual basis for consideration of this issue. I got lost in the midst of a crowd of people, each calling the other "stupid."


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 11:03 AM

1: "The Supreme Council of the IRB met on 5 September 1914, just over a month after the British government had declared war on Germany. At this meeting, they decided to stage an uprising before the war ended and to secure help from Germany." - Source: Max Caulfield "The Easter Rising" page 18

2: "After the war began, Roger Casement and Clan na Gael leader John Devoy met the German Ambassador to the United States, Johann Heinrich von Bernstorff, to discuss German backing for an uprising. Casement went to Germany and began negotiations with the German government and military. He persuaded the Germans to announce their support for Irish independence in November 1914." - Source: Foy and Barton "The Easter Rising" page 25

3: "Casement also attempted to recruit an Irish Brigade, made up of Irish prisoners of war, which would be armed and sent to Ireland to join the uprising. However, only 56 men volunteered. Plunkett joined Casement in Germany the following year. Together, Plunkett and Casement presented a plan (the 'Ireland Report') in which a German expeditionary force would land on the west coast of Ireland, while a rising in Dublin diverted the British forces so that the Germans, with the help of local Volunteers, could secure the line of the River Shannon, before advancing on the capital. The German military rejected the plan, but agreed to ship arms and ammunition to the Volunteers." - Sources: Townshend, Easter 1916, p. 104; Foy and Barton, The Easter Rising, p. 105; McNally and Dennis, Easter Rising 1916: Birth of the Irish Republic, p. 30 & Foy and Barton, The Easter Rising, pp.25-28

So Jom far from it being a lie we have the entire Supreme Council of the IRB agreeing to obtaining support from Germany a country at war with Great Britain at a meeting held on the 5th September 1914.

Roger Casement travels to Germany a country at war with Great Britain at the time.

Plunkett joins Casement in Germany to attempt to arrange a German invasion.

Below you will find how less than ten men subverted the wishes, aims and views of the "organisations" they were supposed to be part of:

"In May 1915, Clarke and MacDermott established a Military Committee or Military Council within the IRB, consisting of Pearse, Plunkett and Ceannt, to draw up plans for a rising. Clarke and MacDermott joined it shortly after. The Military Council was able to promote its own policies and personnel independently of both the Volunteer Executive and the IRB Executive. Although the Volunteer and IRB leaders were not against a rising in principle, they were of the opinion that it was not opportune at that moment. Volunteer Chief-of-Staff Eoin MacNeill, supported a rising only if the British government attempted to suppress the Volunteers or introduce conscription, and if such a rising had some chance of success. IRB President Denis McCullough and prominent IRB member Bulmer Hobson held similar views. The Military Council kept its plans secret, so as to prevent the British authorities learning of the plans, and to thwart those within the organisation who might try to stop the rising. IRB members held officer rank in the Volunteers throughout the country and took their orders from the Military Council, not from MacNeill."

On the Black & Tans Jom:

"The Black and Tans served in Ireland from the end of 1919 to some time in 1921"

The first deployment of the Black & Tans to Ireland was in March 1920. Their activities ended with the Truce that came into force in June 1921. 15 months Jom NOT two years – Steve Shaw will no doubt be able to explain the importance of you getting this right to you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 11:11 AM

Jim,
It was forced through despite ongoing opposition by Tories and Unionists.

Every Act of Parliament is "forced through despite ongoing opposition" by the other parties!"

The Irish Parliamentarians accepted it only on the basis that partition would last no more than a year after the war ended.

Not true Jim. No-one knew there was going to be a war when it was drafted, and partition was not even mentioned in the bill before the rising.

The Rebels had no reason to believe it would be honoured at all,

Rubbish. They had no reason not to, and the Irish people were content.
Who gave them the right to start murdering Irish people on such a whim?

How did the Rising in any way bring about making partition permanent

It poisoned the well of negotiation. An accommodation with the Unionists might have been possible otherwise.

Again - bloody nonsense - Britain ascertained a majority Unionist vote in the north by Gerrymandering the borders.

No. The border was changed so that as many people as possible would be on their preferred side, saving more bloodshed.

Ireland and the Irish did nothing to support Germany in the war.
The rebels still called them "gallant allies."

My views are the same as those of Father Murphy, which the Irish Times was happy to publish.
If they showed "Bernard Manning-like contempt for the Irish people " that would not happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 12:53 PM

Well, Joe Offer, thank goodness I wasn't part of that crowd who were calling each other "stupid." Yes there is good information in this thread, but there is also misinformation, information that can't be relied on and information predicated on political prejudices. 'Twas ever thus, of course. The Easter Rising has had a profound effect on Irish politics and the Irish people on both sides of that confounded border for a hundred years. Our opinion of the men who instigated it should not be predicated on whichever side our sympathies lie with. Too much of that happens in this thread and that is precisely how bad history is written. I don't see you attacking that. There. You have my take on it, which I've already stated several times in this thread in spite of your protestations that I haven't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 16 - 03:38 AM

The Home Rule Bill was opposed vehemently by the Tories and blocked by the House of Lords; it was eventually got through by Royal assent.
After the Easter Rising of 1916, two attempts were made by the Prime Minister, Asquith during the First World War to implement the Act. The first attempt came in June 1916, when David Lloyd George was sent to Dublin to offer immediate implementation to the leaders of the Irish Party. The scheme revolved around partition, officially a temporary arrangement, as understood by Redmond. Lloyd George gave the Ulster leader, Carson, a written guarantee that Ulster would not be forced into a self-governing Ireland. His tactic was to see that neither side would find out before a compromise was implemented.[13] A modified Act of 1914 had been drawn up by the Cabinet on 17 June. The Act had two amendments enforced by Unionists on 19 July – permanent exclusion and a reduction of Ireland's representation in the Commons. When informed by Lloyd George on 22 July 1916, Redmond accused the government of treachery. While all this backhanding was going on the Tory opponents to any kind of Independence had renewed their campaign to block it. This was decisive in sealing the future fortunes of the Home Rule movement. Asquith made a second attempt to implement Home Rule in 1917, with the calling of the Irish Convention chaired by Horace Plunkett. This consisted of Nationalist and Unionist representatives who, by April 1918, only succeeded in agreeing a report with an 'understanding' on recommendations for the establishment of self-government.
There was never an agreement to the permanent partition of Ireland by the Irish parliamentarians and when it was finally forced through under the threat of war, it led to civil War in Ireland and a near century of inequality of the Catholic population in employment, housing and voting, which in turn led to unrest, regular anti-Catholic rioting and the violent quashing of civil-rights protests in the late 1960s which brought about getting on for 3 years of bloody open warfare, the aftershocks of which are still being felt.
To say that Home Rule was a done deal is utter bollocks - it was a lose-lose situation either way for those who wanted Independence.
Ireland was entitled to Independence and the rebels took the only course open to them?
Your accusation that the rebels were guilty of "murder" and the Irish people would celebrate that act and make heroes out of "murderers" is as despicable as Keith's - The Rebels were freedom fighters, fighting for independence from the British Empire, "on whose hands the blood never dried" according to a saying of the time.
If any "murder" was done, it was the cold-blooded and totally unnecessary execution of the leaders, which backfired magnificently.
So what did they do - they gave Ireland an example of what Imperialism represented by strapping a critically wounded man into a chair so they could execute him - that remains as the strongest image of The Easter Rising up to the present day.
Far from the reason being your equally despicable accusation that the rebels were allies of the Germans (a wonderful blast from the past, that one - nobody believes that now), it was aimed at setting an example, with the possible exception of Connolly, who had to be removed as his Socialist ideals were a threat to the system and in behaving in such an evil manner they gave Ireland an example of what Imperialism represented by strapping a critically wounded man into a chair so they could shoot him - that remains as the strongest image of The Easter Rising up to the present day.
British behaviour before, during and after the Rising is adequate evidence of how far Britain could be trusted.
Black and Tans were first recruited in 1919 - they were sent to Ireland in March the following year but, as I said, when they were disbanded many of them remained and joined the R.I.C. - they continued their activities up to the Truce.
Nit-pick if you like, but Tans trained by Britain were in fact still operating in Ireland until the R.I.C. was disbanded in 1922.
"The border was changed so that as many people as possible would be on their preferred side, saving more bloodshed."
The Irish people on either side of the border were never consulted
Six Counties instead of nine was the result of appeasing Carson and his mutineers - you have had a description of Lloyd Georges's continuing behaviour in all this - made up maybe?
- if you have any quibble with the gerrymandering that took place, show that it didn't.
"My views are the same as those of Father Murphy"
I'm sure they are - my views are the same as those of the Irish people as a whole rather than an American Jesuit priest.
Your and Keith's "Bernard Manning" attitude to the Irish was demonstrated perfectly to your appeasement to Sir Charles Trevelyan's genocidal handling of The Famine and is being repeated here in spades - 't'ick Micks who don't understand their own history and celebrate murder' - Manning, Jim Davidson and Punch Magazine all rolled into one.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - AprilOn 14 Sep 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Apr 16 - 04:40 AM

"The Home Rule Bill was opposed vehemently by the Tories and blocked by the House of Lords; it was eventually got through by Royal assent.

Wrong Jom - read up on British Parliamentary procedure and the 1911 Parliament Act which was brought in to ensure the dominance of the House of Commons over the House of Lords. As to your "got through by Royal Assent" I think that you are mixing up "Royal Assent" which every Act of Parliament must receive before it can be enacted and a thing called "Royal Decree" which have no place in British Law any law, or amendment to an existing law must be put before Parliament, debated by both Houses of Parliament, the House of Lords have no right of veto over anything coming from the Commons, they can only delay it for three readings after which the Commons vote on it for the last time and the Bill is sent to the reigning Monarch for signature.

"After the Easter Rising of 1916, two attempts were made by the Prime Minister, Asquith during the First World War to implement the Act."

Impossible according to the Suspensory Act of 1914, there may well have been discussions regarding how the 1914 Home Rule could be implemented but there could have been no attempt to implement Home Rule until after the end of the war.

"The Suspensory Act 1914 (4 & 5 Geo. 5 c. 88) was an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom which suspended the coming into force of two other Acts: the Welsh Church Act 1914 (for the disestablishment of the Church of England in Wales), and the Government of Ireland Act 1914 (Third Home Rule Bill for Ireland). The Suspensory Act received the royal assent on the same day as the two Acts it suspended, on 18 September 1914.

On 14 September 1915 an Order in Council made under the Suspensory Act suspended the Government of Ireland Act for a further six months (i.e. until 18 March 1916), and postponed Welsh disestablishment until the end of the war. A subsequent series of Orders in Council, dated 29 February 1916, 7 September 1916, 13 March 1917, 22 August 1917, 27 February 1918, 4 September 1918, 12 March 1919, 18 August 1919, 2 March 1920, and 13 August 1920 suspended the Irish Act in further blocks of six months until the Government of Ireland Act 1920 (passed 23 December 1920) repealed the 1914 Home Rule Act. However, the 1920 Act was never fully implemented either, due to the Irish War of Independence (culminating in the independence from the United Kingdom of most of Ireland as the Irish Free State); home rule was only established in Northern Ireland.


"To say that Home Rule was a done deal is utter bollocks - it was a lose-lose situation either way for those who wanted Independence"

Home Rule WAS a done deal, the only thing that needed to be done was to convince two groups of Irishmen how it could be brought in to the satisfaction of both parties. Don't confuse Home Rule with Independence they are not the same. Trouble was both sides in this dispute (both Irish) wanted different things and both stubbornly refused to any compromise and that Jom was what caused the Partition of Ireland. The civil war in Ireland was caused by one group of Irishmen in South not accepting the deal that had been made by those sent by their Parliament to London to negotiate Independence. This idiotic stance forced on the South by de Valera caused the economic ruin of the Irish Free State and later that of the Republic of Ireland. The Irish civil war was short, bitter and small scale (Although larger by a fair margin than the Irish War of Independence that preceded it) had the North's wishes and right of self determination been denied the civil war that would have followed would have much worse in terms of scale and time.

"Your accusation that the rebels were guilty of "murder" and the Irish people would celebrate that act and make heroes out of "murderers" is as despicable as Keith's - The Rebels were freedom fighters, fighting for independence from the British Empire, "on whose hands the blood never dried" according to a saying of the time.

What else would you call gunning down unarmed men Jom? I expect that your bias, bigotry and racism will somehow get round that, just as you have seemed to stick your fingers in your ears to "La-La-La" away the fact that from September 1914 the leaders of the IRB were in contact with the Government of a country that Great Britain and Ireland was at war with - No surprises there the same was true of damn near every single rebellion in Ireland since the time of Elizabeth the First.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Apr 16 - 04:40 AM

Steve,
Yes there is good information in this thread, but there is also misinformation,

Will you finally support one of your assertions and give an example of some misinformation.
Were you referring to Jim's claim that the Home Rule Act had not been passed? That was very misleading.
His claims about heavy artillery being deployed in Dublin?
Also misleading.
Anything else Steve?

Any views of your own on the rising, apart from your belief that it was almost irrelevant?


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Apr 16 - 04:52 AM

Jim,
The Home Rule Bill was opposed vehemently by the Tories

Very silly Jim.
Obviously most Acts Of Parliament are opposed by the opposition. So what? That is their job!

and blocked by the House of Lords; it was eventually got through by Royal assent.

Nonsense Jim!
It was passed by a majority vote in the House Of Commons.
The unelected Lords were not allowed to prevent the will of the people as expressed by Parliament. In such situations they can be, and were, ignored.
Royal Assent is just a rubber stamp. Acts have to get it if they are passed by Parliament, never if they are not.
The rest of your post is a paste job from Wiki!


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Apr 16 - 04:59 AM

despicable accusation that the rebels were allies of the Germans

The rebels themselves claimed the Germans as "allies!"
"Gallant allies" actually.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 Apr 16 - 05:00 AM

"No surprises there the same was true of damn near every single rebellion in Ireland since the time of Elizabeth the First"

What do you really expect a subjugated nation to do. They have been invaded by a powerful neighbour, they do not have the wherewithal to defeat that neighbour so they look for support.

I think you will find Europe did the same in both WW1 and WW2.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 Apr 16 - 05:05 AM

I thought you said the Germans called the Irish "Gallant Allies" not the other way round.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 Apr 16 - 05:09 AM

Oops, Sorry my mistake !


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Apr 16 - 05:12 AM

Raggytash - 30 Apr 16 - 05:00 AM

That is not the point in dispute - Jom the infallible denies that it ever happened - I am merely pointing out that it did and that there is ample evidence to prove it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 16 - 05:26 AM

"Impossible according to the Suspensory Act of 1914"
That was not my claim - it was a direct quote from the Wiki entry of home rule - the dates are given
You continue to pronounce without evidence - who says it is impossible other than you?
"Home Rule WAS a done deal"
Again - you hasve been given the evidence and the quotes and contiinue to pronounce rather than provide your own.
The Redmodites described the July 1016 efforts as a "betrayal (True or false) and they were hardly known as revolutionaries
"What else would you call gunning down unarmed men Jom?"
An article in this mornings paper announces that the relatives of the rebels are seeking an apology for the at least five cold blooded murders carried out by the killer of Francis Skeffington Sheehy, Captain J. C. Bowen-Colthurst.
Colthurst's name is the only one ever connected with "murder" - the accusation that the rebels were "murders" is yours alone
They were executed for their part in the Rising - as revolutionaries, not as "murderers"
This is a squalid invention of yours and Keith's
The Brits were shelling unarmed non combatants - including women and children - you might describe that as murder.
Where is your evidence that rebels ever deliberately gunned down unarmed women and children - who else makes such a claim?
You are a pair of anachronistic jingoistic making it up as you go along - nobody is putting up these claims apart from yourselves.
This is little more than a rerun of your Irish Famine Holocaust denial - this time with the racist mask taken off - the Irish deluded people as a whole ignorant of their own history and supporting murder - how else would you describe that other than racist?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 Apr 16 - 05:27 AM

I think you will find the support the Irish were promised over the centuries never really materialised.

As examples the Italian and Spanish were massacred by the British at Dun An Oir in 1580. There were just 500 of them. The French failed to land at Bantry in 1796. The Germans failed to land any sizable amount of guns 1915 etc etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 Apr 16 - 05:32 AM

I should add the Italian and Spanish defenders at Dun an Oir surrendered ................. THEN they were massacred on the orders of Authur Grey, Lord Deputy of Ireland.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 16 - 05:58 AM

I've searched the web and the only reference I can find to "murder" are those concerning the illegal killings by British troops during the Rising, formost being the at least five carried out in cold blood by C Bowen Colthurst
The accusation of "murder" sums up this pair's entire argument - jingooistic Britain didn't do it" (yet again) claptrap.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Apr 16 - 06:12 AM

Raggytash - 30 Apr 16 - 05:27 AM

Again Raggy you miss the point, it is immaterial whether or not help was actually sent - it was sought, or offered - the fact that in most cases it never materialised was down to the foreign powers inability to get it past English/British naval blockade. But just entering into discussions with an enemy power in time of war is considered to be treason.

See that you have sidestepped the fact that Carroll denies that such discussions ever took place between September 1914 and April 1916.

No remarks at all about the self-appointed Military Council (SEVEN MEN - the "blood sacrifice" believers) forcing the Rising on the two nationalist organisations against the wishes of their respective executive bodies. The Rising was set up to fail by those who led it. The destruction of the centre of Dublin and ALL loss of life was THEIR responsibility as it all came about as a direct consequence of THEIR actions. They did stay true to form later in the dying stages of the Civil War, hardline "nationalist" supporters carried out wanton destruction of property, infrastructure and state assets in their "dog-in-a-manger" dying throws when they knew the game was up. Their actions hindered the economic advancement of the fledgling Irish Republic which took decades to recover.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Apr 16 - 06:22 AM

24th April Jom:

" a small team of Volunteers and Fianna Éireann members swiftly captured the Magazine Fort in the Phoenix Park and disarmed the guards. The goal was to seize weapons and blow up the ammunition store to signal that the Rising had begun. They seized weapons and planted explosives, but the blast was not big enough to be heard across the city.[64] The 23-year-old son of the fort's commander was fatally shot when he ran to raise the alarm.[65]

That is unarmed civilian Number 1 shot by your "Freedom Fighters" Jom - don't know about you but I'd call it murder.

"A contingent under Seán Connolly occupied Dublin City Hall and adjacent buildings.[66] They attempted to seize neighbouring Dublin Castle, the heart of British rule in Ireland. As they approached the gate a lone police sentry, James O'Brien, attempted to stop them and was shot dead by Connolly."

That is yet another instance of an unarmed man being gunned down - don't know about you Jom but I'd call it murder.

The difference of course is that the British Army pursued charges against the person you mention - he was found to be insane.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 Apr 16 - 06:27 AM

It can only be seen as "treason" by the dominant power.

If you are a oppressed, persecuted and tyrannised people it is not "treason" to seek to overthrow those who hold power over you.


For over 700 years that was the situation in Ireland.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 Apr 16 - 07:11 AM

Conveniently found insane, shipped of to Canada, released and given a full military pension.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Apr 16 - 07:16 AM

Jim,
The Brits were shelling unarmed non combatants - including women and children - you might describe that as murder.

I think that is just propaganda. A lie.
The murders T refers to are undisputed facts. They could easily have been overpowered, but they had to die.

"Home Rule WAS a done deal"
Again - you hasve been given the evidence and the quotes and contiinue to pronounce rather than provide your own.


It was a done deal. The Act was passed when Britain had no intention of joining any war between Germany and France.
Had Germany not invaded Belgium, you would have had home rule in 1914.

Rag,
If you are a oppressed, persecuted and tyrannised people it is not "treason" to seek to overthrow those who hold power over you.

That is not how the people felt in 1916.
They were happy with the plans for home rule, supported the war against Germany, and reviled the rebels.


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Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Apr 16 - 07:55 AM

Jim, it is not just T and I who hold these views.
Irish journalist Patsy McGarry has written that the 1916 Rising was "an immoral and anti-democratic act organised by a minority within a minority who, looking into their own souls, saw there what they deemed was right for the Irish people".
See my Indy link below.

Irish Times,
"Mr Dodd said the horrific death toll among civilians adds to our understanding of why Pádraig Pearse decided to call off the rebellion. About 45 were killed on the last day of the Rising, the highest number of the week."
"It also explains the furious reaction to the rebellion among Dublin civilians in the immediate aftermath of surrender."
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/easter-rising-glasnevin-researchers-reach-definitive-death-toll-1.2165878

The Independent,
"The Irish "Few" were reviled by Church and people, cursed in Irish newspapers, blamed for the mass looting by the tens of thousands of Dublin poor who thronged the streets under fire to take those luxuries – new shoes, jackets, heaps of coal, sweets, even pianos – that they could never otherwise hope to possess. Only the brutality with which the Crown executed the leaders of 1916 – shot after secret (and thus illegal) courts-martial – turned public scorn at the rebels into outrage against the British."

"If its creators had not declared for Germany, the British might have been able to brush the Rising aside as a violent but hot-headed local rebellion. But for a British government facing the German onslaught in 1916, this was an act of gross treachery, "

"But in the Republic itself, as long ago as 1966 – on the 50th anniversary of the Rising, when it was still a very Church-bound Catholic nation – young men an