BS: Who Are the Terrorists

Subject: Who Are the Terrorists?
From: GUEST,Shame on Israel and the US
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 04:19 PM

From MSN News today:

"At least 1,107 Palestinians and 381 Israelis have been killed in tit-for-tat violence since the Palestinian uprising ignited soon after talks on a permanent settlement stalled."

The EU condemns Israel's attack on Arafat. The Arab League condemns Israel's actions Arafat, and denounces it as an attack on the Saudi inspired Arab League peace plan offered at this week's summit in Beirut.

End the Israeli occupation now!

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 04:28 PM

Just heard Bush's stupid speech. Arafat has never had the power to stop the terrorism, which will continue, with or without him, for generations. Unless the UN, with the support of the major nations puts a no-go zone between the Irraelis and the Palestinians, there is little hope. I have my doubts about even that, since the anger and frustration on the part of the Palestinians over the loss of their land and homes has only gone on for fifty years- it will continue for at least another hundred...

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Gareth
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 04:31 PM

Do not feed the Trolls.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 05:10 PM

The most disruptive event of our times and you say, in essence, do not discuss it? Go back to sleep, Gareth.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: musicmick
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 05:18 PM

I am pleased and proud to answer these closet anti-semites who have one set of standards for Jews and another for eveyone else. The Jews didn't start this cycle of violence. The Jews didn't start this neverending war. The Jews weren't the party objecting to a Palestinian state. The Jews were granted a stste by the United Nations, a state that was violenly contested by the pan-Arab world for fifty years. Our sin, in the eyes of our critics, was to survive the animus of our Arab neighbors who, until recently, refused to recognize our right to exist. Israel is not a land of saints. She is, as she was intended to be, a home for the Jewish people. (I've noticed that no one objects to Arab states) Her primary obligation is the security of her populace. When her borders are secure, she will have peace. But you know, and I know, that there are factions in Islam that will never accept the existamce of an "infidel" nation in the Middle East. Unless and until those factions are controlable by a Palestinian government, Israel must maintain control of her borders. In spite of the warmongering smears that Dicho and the nameless Guest employ, Israelis have no desire to remain in a perpetual state of combat readiness. We do, however, prefer peril to surrender or suicide.

Mike Miller

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: DonMeixner
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 05:34 PM

My view on this is not the view of my government. My governments view is not necessarily the view of the American people.

The people of Palestine deserve their own home land. So do the Israelies. Were there Jews in Palestine (Jerusalem-Israel?) a hundred years ago? Were there Palestinians in Israel ( Jerusalem-Palestine?) a hundred years ago? It is my understanding that much of Palestine was partitioned and given away by the treaty of Versailles just as were the Balkans. Are there historical homelands involved? Certainly but how far back does history go to be valid?

The home land issue will not be decided until there is no mutual murdering going on in the name of God, Country, and tradition. Any one who thinks that Arafat has any control over the situation is just as blind as those people who thing the US government has any control over Israel.

It seems I have only questions and only obvious answers and I don't what to do about it.

This is the one thing I am sure of, this mass bloodletting will go on as long as Palestine is denied a home. This mass bloodletting will go on as long as Hamasssp)and Hisbouallah(sp)continue to murder men, women, and children who are guilty of only being Jewish.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 06:31 PM

Terrorism is defined as...the use of force or threats of force by one group of people to intimidate, terrorize, coerce, or destroy another group of people, in order to secure some advantage for the group committing the terrorism or in order to seek revenge for some past grievance or both.

By that definition, the terrorists are: Al Queda, Israel, the Taliban, the Northern Alliance, the USA, Russia, Iraq, Pakistan, India, the Palestinian bombers and snipers, the Serbs, the Kosovars, the Chinese, the Tamils, the Sri Lankans, the British, and just about anyone else you could care to mention, with the exception of some small countries like Denmark, Iceland, Lichtenstein, and so on...and with the exception of most of us private citizens everywhere who are just trying to quietly live our lives in peace.

Who are the most effective terrorists? Powerful national governments and their military forces. They have the most firepower by far and are best organized to use it.

Police forces come next (not all police forces, but many of them in many places).

Then come scattered groups of non-governmental forces, guerrilla fighters, saboteurs, criminal gangs, etc...right down to those you might call the "small fish"...schoolyard bullies. They all have much less firepower than powerful nations do, but they are generally considered more heinous because their fighters aren't in uniform. This is mere convenient hypocrisy...the same kind that ensures that a rich man normally gets better legal help in court than a poor man does.

National goverments and great imperial powers have routinely practiced terrorism on their chosen enemies throughout history, while calling it something else, and with or without the formality of a declaration of war.

Hypocrites, hypocrites, hypocrites. The "War on Terrorism" is itself being fought by some of the world's foremost terrorists...against some other terrorists. To find general agreement on who threw the very first stone would at this point be an exercise in futility.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 06:32 PM

Because one is opposed to the State of Israel's murderous policies regarding the Palestinians doesn't make one an anti-Semite. That is just bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Gareth
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 06:58 PM

Do not feed the Trolls

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 07:03 PM

Mike Miller, are you in Israel now yourself?

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: musicmick
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 08:47 PM

I am a Jew. I am not embarrassed to state my nationality, to identify my ancestry, to honor my history and heritage. I am old enough to remember when anti-semitism was common, then, unpatriotic, then hidden in jokes. I know that the perception of Jews changed, radically, after the War of Independance in the late 40's. The Jew, who had been, at best, a tragic victim of a common enemy, became a heroic figure by establishing his ability to defend his home against the massed forces of the Arab world. My people have held this land (much of which had been purchased from Egyptian and Syrian absentee landlords back in the 20s and 30s), developed it and salvaged it from the sands of neglect, brought the first democracy the region had ever known and withstood constant attacks from their neighbors, who, only now, are even willing to accept a Jewish state in the Middle East. The fact of ownership is, historically, determined by stability and bias. To Irishman throughout the world, a thousand years of British rule did not make their nation a de facto part of England, Great Britain, the U.K. or whatever is the presently acceptable name for their oppressers. America has been "settled" only a few centuries, but I have yet to hear of an American Israel-basher offering to return his house to whichever Native American it was "settled" from. The hipocracy of the left, on the Israel-Palestinian question is amazing to me, as I have been a lifelong leftist. I understand the principle of self interest. I suppose, if I were Palestinian, I would value the lives and welfare of my family and friends above the lives and welfare of others. I am not angry at Palestinian terrorists. I fear them, of course, but I understand their zeal. They are blindly fanatical and they have no interest in a nebulous vision of objective justice or fairness. They are dangerous and they must be stopped but, at least, their agenda is known and, in a frightening way, logical. My chagrin is reserved for those among you who equate a Hamas attack on a schoolbus with the retaliation for the attack. I have little regard for hand wringers who chant the equivilant of "That's nice, dont fight" to a tiny nation fighting for its very existance. As Mr. T would say, "I pity the fool who thinks that the fundimentalists are ever going to permit a Jewish state in their holy land." Mike Miller

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 09:22 PM

Mike, I'm having difficulty determining whether or not your 30-Mar-02 - 08:47 PM post is in response to my question. Partly because it's very difficult for me to read posts that are not broken up into segments, and partly because you didn't say whether or not you are in Israel. Although the wording you've been using suggests that maybe you are. Whereabouts in Israel are you? Are you in significant danger where you are?

It's pretty difficult for someone like me, here in the US, to know what it's like to be in such a tense situation. But I do want to learn as much as I can about the situation over there. Both from the Jewish perspective, as well as from the Palestinian perspective.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 09:27 PM

Let us praise the martyr Abdel Baset Odeh. He gave his life so that 22 Jews would not feast on the matzos made from the blood of Islamic children. His act of heroism, while not as great as that of the brave martyrs of September 11 who killed almost 4000, is an honor for his family.

Who are the terrorists? Of course it is the Jews and the Americans. The Islamic martyrs who give their lives so that Jews and Americans may die are heroes of Allah.

We thank Max, King of Mudcat, for providing this forum. Mudcat provides a great source of information since it is well known that the American media is controlled by zionist Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 09:47 PM

Above guest, Mike Miller,

Since the latest round of violence began in September 2000, the number of Palestinians killed by Israeli security forces outnumber the Israelis killed by terrorist attacks by more than 3 to 1.

Why no outcry for the loss of innocent Palestinian lives? Are we to believe the blood of Israelis is more sacred than the blood of Palestinians? That Israelis are more deserving of a homeland than Palestinians?

Why the double standard here?

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: musicmick
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 01:42 AM

My reply to the nameless, faceless, gutless Guests who condemn Israel for defending herself from ceaseless war, waged by nations and orginizations whose oft-stated policy is the destruction of the Jewish state, is not to educate. I answer, only, to let them know that their one sided pronouncements will not go unchallenged./////// I dont know how to get this thing to make paragraphs, so I'm using these slanted lines to seperate, OK?////// My work and my family keep me in the USA nowadays. I maintain dual citizenship in the land of my birth and the land of my people. When I lived in Israel, I was a Chaver Meshach at a kibbutz near Afula, which is about ten miles from the West Bank town of Genin. The kibbutz was situated between Meggido (site of the Armigedon), Nazereth (home of you-know-who) and Nablus (the ancient city of Schem, where Abraham is buried).///// Israel is a wonderful country. It is the only state in the region with workers rights (the Histadrut is the nation-wide union.), women's rights, civil rights for gays and a true representative government. Israel has a long history of socialist experimentation, two national health plans and constitutional guarantees for minorities. On the other hand, I must admit that Israeli beer tastes like it has been run through a camel.//// I cant explain in my limited typing style, what it's like, living in a war zone. I tried to describe it to my friends, after the 9/11 attack, but I couldn't seem to do it justice. You, just live with it, that's all. You accept the restrictions, the searches, the delays. They become as routine as traffic lights. The fear is placed on the back burner of your mind, but you get a little more aware of where you are and who you're with. It's a hell of a way to live, but it beats dying.////// Mike Miller

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 01:52 AM

Thanks Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST,Wee Willie.
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 04:56 AM

Little Hawk, as the late Brendan Behan stated,"The terrorists are the ones with the small bombs". Wee Willie

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Jack The Lad
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 02:36 PM

I live, work and make music in Israel. Life here is becoming very difficult. People's nerves are frayed, but, as Mike says you live with the road blocks and security checks.You wonder where to go on the Sabbath- should you just stay cooped up in your house? Perhaps the countryside is safer- but how do you get there? You wonder whether to go ahead with the next Folk Festival- cancel and take a loss- but what if people stay away? But maybe they'll come- just to get away from things - who knows? /// Last night it was a cafe in Tel Aviv which was bombed- My son lives and works in Tel Aviv- sometimes as a waiter. When this happens about half the people in the country get on their cellphones and the system goes down- so you bite your nails for an hour or so.Then- God help us all- you think "well it wasn't my child" If you've any tears left after the previous time you cry for other people's children. This afternoon it was a restaurant in Haifa- Arab owned and staffed by Arabs- 15 people died- Jews and Arabs- The suicide bombers don't differentiate. some of the victims were of mixed Jewish/Arab families- and of course we know that that is a red flag to all fanatics. Has any other country ever faced such fanatics? In spite all of the silly Irish jokes- I can't imagine any IRA man either stupid enough or religiously fervent enough to become a human bomb. What other religion encourages an 18 year old girl to despatch herself and 20 other people to "Paradise" (Sorry the unbelievers go to Hell and only believers go to Paradise).

I fully concurr with everything Mike says. I am proud to be a Jew here. This is a democratic country- over 80% of its Arab citizens( according to polls) would rather live here than in any Arab country./// ( I'll do what Mike did). I am against the occupation- I believe we should leave the territories to their majority of Arab citizens and withdraw to the 1967 borders . Yet how do I argue with those among us who say "Then what? Did we have peace and security before 1967?- Did we heck! Did anybody ask the Arabs to declare war on us in 1948? We accepted the UN decision then- they didn't - so what do they expect? During the period between 1948 and 1967 cross border terror was a regular occurrance- so what else is new?"

It is very difficult being a peacenik here- you want to go and help the Palestinians- but the underlying nagging question remains " Will they ever accept a Jewish Israel here?" Personally I am not getting up and leaving- after September 11th - and what with what is happening in France now(3 synagogues burnt) I wonder whether anywhere else is any better./// I don't usually respond to trolling Guests- I believe that they are expressing barely disguised anti-semitism. I do however want to share with fellow Mudcatters some of the fears and deliberations facing me and 5 million other Israelis day by day. Instead of sitting in front of the TV wondering whether to watch BBCPrime Comedy night or to follow the endless shots of ambulances and blood- I prefer to sit in front of the computer and share my thoughts with at least some of you. If anybody wants to know more about how it is here at present I am at your service. I'll be out tomorrow though- going to a music festival! Happy Easter- Jack The Lad- in Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 02:54 PM

Yes, Willie....

musicmic - You can make paragraph breaks by hitting the "Enter" key twice. Try it.

While I understand your feelings (given your personal experiences in Israel), I suspect that had you been born a Palestinian or a muslim you would be expressing the same sort of passionate views...only from the diametrically opposite position. Trust me, you would.

I call terrorism terrorism no matter who is doing it, and I believe the Israelis and the Palestinians are both doing it, and have been since the inception of the Jewish state of Israel, in fact even before the inception of the Jewish state...check the historical record of the British administration in Palestine after World War II.

They are both committing terrorist acts "to protect themselves" and "to retaliate" for past terrorist acts and to "send a message" (a stupid and pointless message, namely: "We aren't going to let you push us around! Try it and you will pay dearly!"). Well, duh!...when has that ever ended a festering dispute of this sort?

They are both wrong to do it, IMO, and I regret that there is no world authority either willing to or capable of disarming them both, protecting the civilians on both sides, establishing heavily garrisoned buffer zones between them if necessary, and policing the area for as long as it takes to reach some working and lasting agreements for mutual coexistence and peace.

I have never denied Israel's right to exist, but I deny their right to attack their neighbours, just as I deny their neighbours' right to attack them. That is not anti-semitism! It's neutrality. I accept everyone's right to exist.

And I am well aware that Israeli society has accomplished a number of progressive things, and is better organized socially (and militarily) than the poorer, less modernized Arab nations on its borders.

That doesn't make Israel "good" and the Arabs "evil". Most ordinary people everywhere are good, in my opinion, but they become dangerous when they are fearful or desperate or in the grip of virulent hate propaganda.

Both Israel and its many armed opponents are in the grip of fear, desperation, and virulent hate propaganda on a daily basis...but they only recognize the other guy's hate propaganda for what it truly is. They see their own hate propaganda as the gospel of truth and justice...

Both are walking, blinded by their own mythology, into the fire.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: ard mhacha
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 03:44 PM

Jack and Little Hawk you are two fair and reasonable men, if only everyone were of like mind. I live in north east Ireland and our troubles seem minor in comparsion, the news is grimmer by the hour from Israel-Palestine, may you go safely Jack, and by some miracle may you also have a peaceful settlement. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From:
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 04:26 PM

I think the world helped make this mess and the world has to help solve it. I don't see how the two sides can voluntarily come to any agreements without military and financial pressure from the outside world. We can start by looking at the problem of population pressure and look for ways to relieve that..massive immigration of the Palestinians, combined with better lives for those who remain. (Yes, I support the right of Israel to exist, with well-defined borders, and to the right of a Palestinian state to exist, with borders and under, for the forseeable future, international peace-keeping forces. Terrorism must be dealt with swiftly and surely, as it is being done. Arafat is now cornered, and should be cut off from all communication and held on house arrest until happier days arrive. There are ways to improve the lot of the Palestinians..with better water, sewage, garbage services. Better access to education, particularly trade schools. I will say that if I owned an olive orchard and had to watch through a fence while it was bulldozed I would not be a "nice" refugee. In my own land. We have somehow, many if not most of us in America and probably Europe, heard only one side of this. Some of what we have heard has been misinformation. We have to seek out the truth on all sides. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 05:29 PM

Mike Miller, if you are happy to cite the UN as authority for Israel's existence, no doubt you think Israel should respect the various UN resolutions concerning the region?

Jack, you can't imagine any IRA people being "stupid enough" to be suicide bombers, but I expect you can think of a few who died on hunger strike, which in my book required similar comitment.

All over the world you will find people to willing to die if the cause is close enough to their hearts. Jan Palic may be the best remembered of those who have burnt themselves to death, but he is one of many hundreds in recent times. Such commitment doesn't mean the cause is always right, but it's a good measure of how deeply feelings can run, and how intractable some problems are.

Gareth, I thought trolling was supposed to be posting with a view to inviting attack (or "flaming" as we must to call it in cyberspace). Who had fed the troll when you first posted, and is your mind so closed that you can find nothing worthwhile in what has been an absorbingly interesting natter (or was till I joined in)?

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 05:33 PM

Mike,
you can also make paragraphs by doing the follwoing:
Type < then br then >. This will give you paragraphs.
If you go the the permathreads, you cab learn a lot about html that will make your (and our) life easier.
As I have said before, until the question of who controls Jerusalem is settled, there will be no peace in the region. I suggest that the UN move its headquarters there and declare it an international city under UN governance.

troll (at my brother-in-laws house in Ft Worth, Tx.)

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Gareth
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 05:52 PM

Respectfully refer to Guest Post 30-Mar-02 - 09:27 PM

My case stands.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From:
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 06:38 PM

I thought of something else...Those settlements are an obvious problem. I know land is scarce, but they are being used as human shields, and some, not all, are fanning the flames. I think all settlements in the occupied terrorities, and whatever land will most likely in the future be in the state of Palestine should be essentially no-man's (woman's) land and should be turned into heavily secured areas that can be used as parks or orchards or vegetable plots...and playgrounds for the children...From a military point of view it is much more easy to defend etc...and rather than raising ire they could be raising cash crops or whatever...both sides perhaps..

mg

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 07:44 PM

Gareth, for some real examples of feeding trolls, please see your own posts on these threads:

#1 Peasant, thank you; Ever played with your genitals; Help, hi girls; To, All Mudcatters.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 09:37 PM

The important thing is not whether or not someone is trolling, but what kind of fish turn up when he does...

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: musicmick
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 09:44 PM

OK,I'll hit ENTER twice to see if that works. Here goes.

I, too, support a Palestinian state. if only for reasons of stability. According to poll after poll, so do most Israelis. If Arafat was strong enough to control the extremist factions operating within his borders, I would be his biggest fan. The fact is, however, he is powerless. If Egypt or Jordon was to administer the Palestinian state. we might be a little more confident and, even, sleep a little better.

I have already said that if I were Palestinian, I would view this through Palestinian eyes. It is not the anger of the Palestinians that I resent. It is the bleating from the cheap seats of the uninvolved, supposedly objective. It is this nonsensical and historically oblivious cry for Israeli concession when any truly objective observer must see that nothing, but nothing, will appease the fundimentalists except the total desrtuction of the Jewish state. It's not the Arab states that scare us. For the most part, they have finally come around to accepting the reality of Israel (It only took them fifty years). It is not the Arab states that are sending suicide bombers to our seders and our bus stations.

I dont know what to say to the sheep who equate terrorist acts with retaliation. They, obviously, feel that terrorist raids are, on some level, justified. I can only pray that their flocks are never labeled "infidel" so that they never have to discover what their reaction would be. Here, in the USA, we got hit, we got angry, we got back. In spite of your platitudes, the fact remains that terrorists are not placatable. To my many friends in the UK, I suggest that you recall what the British response to the bombing of London was.(Here's a hint, it didn't involve surrender)

How were my paragraphs?

Mike Miller

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Big Mick
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 11:26 PM

This conflict is several thousand years old. The parties do not seem to be able to resolve it among themselves. Both sides make legitimate arguments and have legitimate claims. Dubya forsook the route of dialogue that had been started, urged and coerced by the previous administration and left the parties to sort it out themselves. This is the result. musicmic, and Jack the Lad, I appreciate your posts and the fact that you signed them and speak with conviction. While recognizing that much of what you say is based on fact, such as the Arab states refusal to recognize Israels right to exist, will you not agree that Sharon (beginning with his unwelcome visit) has done much to flame the passions of the Palestinians? It is my opinion that the world community MUST intervene or my grandson will be debating this in his manhood. And will you not also agree that Israel MUST make some concession on Jerusalem? That city is one of the holiest places in Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. Is there a resolution, in your minds, to this problem? Is there room for compromise? It seems to me that Netanyahu and Sharon have been responsible for inflaming this situation into the hopeless tit for tat death struggle that these two peoples are in. Any time one sees the use of suicide to make the point, it means that you will never win with superior force and fire power. It means the rebels/terrorists/freedom fighters are willing to risk all because there is no hope of settlement any other way. That is what the hawks don't get. You can kill the visionary, but never the vision.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 12:10 AM

In re-reading my post, I would also say that it seems to me that the Palestinian leaderships inability or desire to reign in Hamas in the other major reason for this. Which goes back to my first point. The parties are not able to resolve this on their own.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: musicmick
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 02:53 AM

If by "the parties" you mean the Jews and the Palestinians, they could have worked out their differences in 1948. It has never been a question of Palestinian rights. Israel was not opposed to a neighboring state. It was the Arab League who started a war to prevent the Jewish state. And, while we're at it, let's understand the Pan-Arab position on Palestinian rights. Nobody ever gave a damn about the Palestinians when they were virtual serfs to the wealthy Egyptians, Syrians and Jordanians who owned the land. (The Palestinians have been the lowest class of workers in the Arab world for centuries. They provided cheap labor fron North Africa to the oilfields of Kuwait) The religious fanatics who plague our planet care no more about Palestinian Rights than George W. Bush does about health care. Their objection is that there are infidels on their holy ground. Now, we Jews have our zealots, too, but we keep them under control.

Why are we having this discussion? Are any of the Israel bashers really interested in another point of view? Are any of them prepared to hand over their own homes or cities? How, pray tell, do they think those homes and cities were gotten? I'll bet they weren't gotten by purchase and international fiat, as Israel got gotten. I've read enough history to know that Israel's behavior has been no worse, and, in many ways, a damn sight better than other countries. Israel is not a terrorist nation, no matter what these knee-jerk nazis claim. Israel has never attacked a country that didn't attack her first. To blame Israel for retaliation is to blame the victim for the result of the victimization. (Segregationists used to use this trick. They claimed that African-Americans were unqualified for better jobs, ignoring that segregated schools had kept them unqualified. Still, this argument made sense to those who were looking for a rational for the evils of racial discrimination)

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 08:41 AM

Trouble is, Gareth, your first post came about five hours before the one you take issue with. In fact you had to revive the thread twice before that post was submitted. Of course, if you are the guest as well, you will have seen it coming, and hence the advance complaint. Or were you just warning us all to conform with your own convictions, the courage to state which you haven't yet found?

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 08:48 AM

Stop being such a dick, musicmic. Calling people who disagree with your lame Zionist crap 'nazis,' 'anti-semites,' and 'sheep' is no way to get your point across. Look at Jack the Lad's post above. He's just as incorrect as you are, but he didn't have to act like an asshole to prove it. I don't think anyone on this thread has insulted you (besides me, dickweed), so chill out. :)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 10:12 AM

Jack the Lad.......Glad to see you are still "on the bus" and thanks for being there.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 10:28 AM

Musicmic,

You speak for many of us who remain silent or anonymous because we're sick of attacks from the likes Lepus Rex.

Ignore Lepus Rex. Read through his Mudcat posting history you will see him for exactly what he is. He hates Israel and everything that it represents.

He has even stated he hates his own country, the United States.

On the other hand, Lepus Rex is a friend of ruthless dictators, hateful fanatics and murdering terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 10:55 AM

I see there are no Palestinians living in the occupied territoris who contribute to the Mudcat Forum.

This conversation is grossly one-sided, with no representation from the Palestinian perspective whatsoever. Which is just the way the US and Israeli governments intend to keep it. The Israeli security forces have now effectively closed down the West Bank And Gaza as a "military zone" which means we will get precious little legitimate news reporting out of the area. Just like the US military did in Afghanistan, Panama, etc.

One lesson all the repressive western powers like the US, Britain, and Israel learned from Vietnam: keep the reporters out, so neither the facts or the truth gets told. Which is why the ANC in South Africa spent good money on their own satellite dishes.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 10:58 AM

musicmic

Are you some sort of PR person for the Palestinians? Or are you simply misinformed and stupid?

You are arguing that since Americans stole the land from the natives that we should support Israel in doing the same.

You argue that since Israel was attacked first, it is ok for them to Bulldoze villages and attack police stations.

You say that the problem stems from the fact that Arafat does not have the power to be effectual. If you read the paper today you will see whose fault that is.

I have no stake in either side of this conflict. But it is clear that only one government is overtly employing terror. If that makes you call me a "knee-jerk" "Israel Basher" so be it.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 11:37 AM

I, on the other hand, am not bashing anyone. I am asking questions and trying to stimulate a fair look at this. musicmic, even if all you say is correct (IMHO most is and some isn't), what the hell has that got to do with getting to a place where Israeli and Palestinian kids don't have to grow up in this shit? The point is to stop the fighting and even if that happens today it will take a generation or two to undo the prejudices that many of todays kids are being raised with. But it must start somewhere. This is not unlike the north of Ireland. If it is one thing I have learned in my 6 or so years on the Mudcat, it is that we can go on and on about the ancient wrongs and who started what. But the childrens lives are more hopeful if those are subjects for political debate in a peace process, than what their lives are like if they are justification for more killing and hate. You need to step back. Your position and endless ranting about who did what are exactly why the process can't go forward. Do I blame Israel for protecting her citizens against the suicide bombers and terrorist cells? No, in fact I applaud her for that. Does that equate with support for what is happening now? Nope. Because they seek to strip the Palestinian of their chosen leadership. That is a shortsighted and losing strategy.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 12:02 PM

I have kinfolk who call themselves jewish, and kinfolk that call themselves moslem. I am neither. My question is a respectful request for clarification: since every single national boundary in existence on today's maps was put there by a previous conquest of some sort, why is it so not OK for conquest to determine this particular boundary? Why do the Palestinians and the Israelis have a "right" to territory, when nobody else does, except as given by the conquering which their ancestors committed?

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: SharonA
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 12:10 PM

Troll (Mudcat member visiting Texas) says, "I suggest that the UN move its headquarters there and declare it an international city under UN governance."

I dunno, Troll; having the UN headquarters situated in Manhattan hsn't exactly protected New York City from Muslim terrorists, now has it?

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 12:13 PM

And by the way, musicmic, would you mind giving me your opinion on the questions I asked? They will help me to understand where you are coming from. Your frame of references seem to stem from the last 50 years and I maintain that this is several millenia old.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 12:18 PM

Thank you SharonA for identifying that truth. As long as there are influential Islamicists who will distort their religion to convince young men, and now young women, to kill themselves committing mass murder, we are not safe from them. Not in New York, not in Jerusalem, not anywhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: SharonA
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 12:31 PM

Jack the Sailor says, "it is clear that only one government is overtly employing terror [referring to Israel]."

But how is that better than the covert employment of terror by the Palestinian government? In some cases it's not even all that covert; look at Arafat's statement on Friday, as his compound was being occupied by Israeli soldiers, when he said (in reply to Israel's statement that they had no intention of harming him) that he hoped he would be a martyr so that Palestinian terrorists could avenge his death ("To Palestine, millions of martyrs will flow"). If that's not a blatant call to arms for terrorists, I don't know what is.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 12:34 PM

SUPPORT THE SAUDI PEACE PROPOSAL! Yeah, write your congressamn and senators. Email the President. Heck with figuring out who threw the first stone. You might as well be arguing how many angels can dance on the end of a pin... SUPPORT THE SAUDI PEACE PROPOSAL! It provides the crux of what both Isreal and the Palestinians have "said" they wanted all along. It is INCLUSIONARY. It is a good first step.

NO, the Military-Industrial Complex doesn't want it!!! And the news media, which is owned by a ruling class that profits from war, doesn't want it. But there's more to life than money so SUPPORT THE SAUDI PEACE PROPOSAL TODAY. RIGHT NOW. TAKE A MINUTE OR TWO TO WRITE YOUR CONGRESSMEN AND THE WHITE HOUSE. NOW. PLEASE.

Stop bickering over the past long enough to do something to STOP THE KILLING NOW!!!!!

SUPPORT THE SAUDI PEACE PROPOSAL! ACT NOW!

Peace

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 12:48 PM

The mother of Abdel Baset Odeh, the suicide terrorist who murdered 22 Jews, most of them elderly, at the Passover seder in Netanya was on CNN saying how HAPPY and PROUD she was about the murders committed by her son.

Imagine, a mother saying how happy and proud she is that her son would kill himself and 22 innocent people gathered for a religious celebration.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 01:02 PM

Above guest,

It is no different than a mother of a member of the US armed forces killed in the line of duty saying the same thing. No different at all. How many innocents have the US armed forces slaughtered in Afghanistan? Answer: we don't know, because our government won't tell us. If we knew how many innocents our government slaughtered, a lot of people in the US would be upset too.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: SharonA
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 02:07 PM

Geez, I wish you GUESTS would fill in the blank with some name, just so that the rest of us can refer to you in a slightly handier way than by saying "GUEST who posted on 01-Apr-02 - 01:02 PM". But until then...

GUEST who posted on 01-Apr-02 - 01:02 PM: Yes, there are several differences. In Afghanistan, the US is not intentionally targeting civilian non-combatants, nor does the US make a habit of targeting them in general (there have been cases where miscalculations and other mistakes have resulted in innocents being bombed, but again those were not intentional). Afghan civilians were forewarned by the US that attacks on terrorist hideouts were forthcoming, and were advised to evacuate. The US has offered humanitarian aid to the region for those who are not actively seeking to kill Americans, no matter what their sentiments about the situation might be.

Please, let's not forget that Afghanistan's government isn't telling us everything either! They have a political agenda, just as the US government does... just as Palestine's does... just as Israel's does. Each of those governments has sent young people off to kill and sometimes to die for its political agenda, just as a bazillion governments around them and before them. Personally, I prefer the political agenda that promotes and defends human rights for all to the agenda that declares that any segment of the population does not have the right to exist.

By the way, please note that Ariel Sharon (no relation! *G*) has declared that Israel is at war against terrorism, not against Palestine. Sound familiar? The US didn't declare war against Afghanistan, either, but against terrorism.

Sharon

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 02:11 PM

(nobody's going anywhere near my question, I see)

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 02:22 PM

The idea that the targeting of civilians is intentional is bullshit. We just ignore the fact that civilians will be casualities of the violence we are inflicting in Afghanistan because as a nation state, when we go to war, we are told the civilian casualties are "collateral damage" and can't be avoided.

It is now the nature of state sponsored military action that many more civilians than soldiers are killed, regardless of where the violence takes place.

The Israelis have killed many more Palestinian civilians in the past 18 months (some estimates run as high as 2,000 Palestinians killed) to the Israeli losses of about 400-500 killed, including those killed by suicide bombers.

Those are pretty lopsided numbers.

Like I said, there are Israeli mothers who are happy and proud that their sons are killing Palestinians, you just aren't seeing them interviewed on CNN or Israeli TV. Why? The state propagandists don't like to put that sort of spin on the Israeli side, just like they don't like to put that sort of spin on the US side. Makes them look like the barbarians they truly are.

Peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 02:31 PM

Mrrzy,

If you have so many Israeli and Moslem (sic) relations, why is it you are claiming it is their ancestors who conquered what is now the state of Israel, the West Bank and Gaza?

The state of Israel was formed in 1948. Prior to that (from around the turn of the century) what was known as Palestine was merely a protectorate of the British empire (the world's experts in divide, conquer, and leave the wars to the next occupiers)?

It wasn't their ancestors who engaged in the war that created the state of Israel. It was the same aging Zionist regime that just declared war on Arafat.