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Kid Ory--The Jazz Original

GUEST 01 Apr 02 - 04:03 PM
GutBucketeer 01 Apr 02 - 04:50 PM
AR282 01 Apr 02 - 05:37 PM
Rick Fielding 01 Apr 02 - 09:37 PM
GUEST,Kenny B on hols Tenerriffe 02 Apr 02 - 07:06 AM
GUEST,AR282 02 Apr 02 - 08:00 AM
AR282 02 Apr 02 - 05:26 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 02 Apr 02 - 06:10 PM
Rick Fielding 02 Apr 02 - 08:55 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 02 Apr 02 - 09:25 PM
AR282 02 Apr 02 - 10:05 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 02 Apr 02 - 10:24 PM
GUEST,AR282 03 Apr 02 - 12:51 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 03 Apr 02 - 01:05 PM
Rick Fielding 03 Apr 02 - 01:21 PM
greg stephens 04 Apr 02 - 04:37 AM
Rick Fielding 04 Apr 02 - 11:34 AM
AR282 06 Apr 02 - 09:10 AM
AR282 06 Apr 02 - 09:16 AM
GUEST,John McCusker 30 Jul 10 - 07:23 AM
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GUEST,My time with Kid Ory 21 Nov 11 - 07:45 PM
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Subject: Kid Ory--The Jass Original
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 04:03 PM

Edward Ory was born on a sugar plantation on Christmas Day in 1886 in Laplace, Louisiana. From very early on, Ory was very interested in music. By the age of 8, Ory had built himself a banjo from a tin can and a ½" x 1½" piece of wood strung with 5 copper wires. He promptly began to search for band mates. He met Stonewall Matthews who played cigar box guitar and his brother Louis who played a violin made from a cigar box, a piece of cypress wood and linen strings. Foster Lewis played a bass made from a soapbox and a 1" x 2" piece of wood. Eddie Robinson supplied percussion by playing an inverted chair from which he obtained different sounds by tapping the bottom and legs alternately.

Quite the young entrepreneur, Ory took his band to the streets to hustle for money. "We would go out on the bridge and practice, then go around crowds and hustle. We saved all the money we made except fifteen cents for carfare. We saved the money, and I decided to give picnics with beer, salad, fifteen cents to come in and dance." It would have been extremely interesting to have heard this band with their self-made instruments especially in light of the fact that all of them would go on to play in the jazz circuit years later.

While hustling around town, Ory spied a valve trombone in a pawnshop window and wanted it. It cost $7.50, not a bad price even in those days. Using the money the band saved, he purchased the instrument and began to practice with it practically nonstop. The band continued hustling and holding dances and promptly hauled in the cash. Soon every band member had a store-bought instrument to play.

While in New Orleans, spending the summer at his sister's house, Ory spent most of his time watching the jass bands at the park at Johnson and Lincoln. There he saw the amazing Charles Bolden, better known as Buddy, but known to all his loyal followers as "King". Buddy Bolden is credited today with having started Dixieland jass. How this came about is an interesting story: Bolden's trombonist, Willie Cornish, was a skilled musician who read music. Bolden was self-taught and never picked up a cornet until he was 17. He became, however, a premier blues player. Ragtime, though, had hit it big and Cornish and Bolden decided to form a ragtime band. Cornish picked up ragtime sheet music and had no trouble learning the intricacies of ragtime. He particularly enjoyed playing Joplin numbers (probably because Joplin's ragtime was heavily infused with classical music which nearly all Creole musicians were well-versed in). He taught these numbers to Bolden but Bolden could not read music and he had to play by ear. Unable to shed his blues roots, Bolden played ragtime imperfectly by actually playing rag-flavored blues. The sound, though, was hot and the band picked it up and started playing in Bolden's unique style. So many people came to hear King Bolden and his band and that soon other bands copied the style, adding in their own bits and riffs, and Dixieland jass was born. Bolden played with tremendous volume and power and it was said that on a good night, he could be heard blowing from four miles away. Those who saw him said he ran through horns like most people change socks, his power so great that he often blew his cornets literally to pieces as he played them—parts spewing into the audience. How much is truth and how much is legend we'll never know. King Bolden would never record. His drinking and carousing would cost him his band and his career in 1907, when he was committed to an asylum where he would spend the rest of his life, finally dying there in 1931.

Ory was one of the few old jassmen that knew Bolden (Jelly Roll Morton may have known him as he and Ory attended some of the same shows, and Morton's immense talent would certainly have made Bolden sit up and take notice, and Clarence Williams saw Bolden perform although I have no idea if he ever met him). Ory, who was about 15 at the time, tells it this way: "I talked with Bolden once. I was at my sister's, trying out a new valve trombone. I was getting the feel of it, when my sister came in and said King Bolden was in the parlor and wanted to see me. I went in and he asked if I was playing the horn he'd heard. I said, 'Yes, I just bought it.' He said, 'It's good.' I said, "It's new. I just got it.' He said, 'I'm looking for a trombone man. How'd you like to join my band?' My sister wouldn't let me go. Said I was too young. Anyway, I'd promised my mother I'd stay home till I was twenty-one." Ory was a dutiful son and kept his word.

However, in 1907, on his 21st birthday, Ory and his band promptly lit out of Laplace and made a beeline for New Orleans "to crack the big time." His band entered a competition at Dixie Park going up against Bob Frank's Peerless Orchestra whom they smoked. Ory booked his band at smaller venues until he was sure they could hang against the best the city had to offer, which was formidable indeed. Within three years, Ory's band was the best in New Orleans. By this time, his band personnel had changed a little. He still had Stonewall Matthews playing the guitar while Louis Matthews now played the trumpet and Eddie Robinson still played the drums. Lawrence Duhe (aka Lawrence Dewey) played clarinet, Alfred Lewis played bass, and O'Neal Levessey played the fiddle.

These were the days they played what the purists consider to be the only real jazz. Saloons, barrelhouses, gutbuckets, parks, picnics and you name it featured different bands. Sometimes they played as a combo, sometimes as marching bands. The marching units played for Mardi gras, funerals, Masonic processions and what not. The funerals were interesting in that the procession took the casket to the cemetery playing a slow, mournful piece ("A Closer Walk With Thee" seemed to be the favorite). On the way back, the band would pick up the tempo playing something like "When the Saints Go Marching In". From this era came many jazz standards as "Bourbon Street Parade" (written by drummer Paul Barbarin), "High Society", "Panama", "Burgundy Street" (pronounce "bur-GUN-dy"), "Eh, La Bas", "Bill Bailey", "Ballin' the Jack", "I Found a New Baby", "The Original Dixieland One-Step" (credited to Nick La Rocca but which was actually an old standard developed by black musicians in New Orleans), "That's A-Plenty", "Down Home Rag", "Oh, Didn't He Ramble" (by the great W. C. Handy), "Careless Love", "Creole Love Song", "Indiana" etc. These were perhaps the best times of the jazz era. Bands traveled about in wagons and, when they crossed paths, would have a cutting contest—a competition. Ory's band excelled at these contests and were considered unbeatable although some liked Freddie Keppard's Original Creole Band better. Everyday was a party. Ory states: "Coming back from the cemetery how we'd go! Every man blowing for all he had. And during Mardi gras, man, that's when we really had fun. All day and night bands marching up and down the streets playing their heads off!" Ory always stood at the back of the wagon and, after cutting a rival band down, would play a little ditty on his trombone as a send off. This style of trombone playing became known as "tailgate trombone" for this reason. Whether or not Ory was the first tailgater is arguable, that he was the best is indisputable. He set the standard for how jazz trombone would be played influencing everyone from Jack Teagarden to Tommy Dorsey.

Ory was a great bandleader with an ear for great talent. He was also a generous man, paying top salary (then about $2.50 a night) to those he hired on. Over the next few years, Ory brought in a spate of amazing talent whom the world might otherwise have been denied and the face and sound of jazz might be lost to us today or at least be unrecognizable. By 1916, he hired clarinetist Jimmie Noone, roundly considered the best to ever play the instrument, even more so than Benny Goodman. Ory also hired in Joe Oliver to play cornet. Oliver quickly began to establish himself as the equal of some of the greats in the area including Freddie Keppard and Bunk Johnson. Ory dubbed him the king of cornetists and Oliver was thereafter known as King Oliver. Ory also brought up clarinetist Johnny Dodds. Dodds refused to accept Ory's top salary until he felt he was good enough to truly earn it.

A young kid fresh out of a youth home began to follow the band around. He had learned to play cornet under Joe Howard and later Bunk Johnson. But he admired Ory's band most of all. Ory auditioned him and immediately recognized his talent. The kid played great blues but his jazz needed work. Ory decided to team the kid up with Oliver. Oliver and the kid hit it off very well and the kid soaked up jazz and the Joplin rags that Oliver was so fond of. The kid, of course, was Louis Armstrong, who got to cut his teeth coming up through Ory's band. Ory loved a good party and was quite a ladies' man. Whenever his band mates showed up at some saloon, the women would always ask, "When's the kid coming?" And soon everyone began calling him Kid. Kid Ory's Creole Jazz Band was untouchable. Louis played around with other bands as well but they couldn't compare to the Kid's.

Armstrong recalled, "Kid Ory and Joe Oliver got together and made one of the hottest jazz bands that ever hit New Orleans. They often played in a tail gate wagon to advertise a ball or other entertainments. When they found themselves on a street corner next to another band in another wagon, Joe and Kid Ory would shoot the works. They would give with all that good mad music they had under their belts and the crowd would go wild. When the other band decided it was best to cut the competition and start for another corner, Kid Ory played a little tune on his trombone that made the crowd go wild again. But this time they were wild with laughter. If you ever run into Kid Ory, maybe he will tell you the name of that tune. I don't dare write it here. It was a cute little tune to celebrate the defeat of the enemy. I thought it screamingly funny and I think you would too." Supposedly, Ory could make his trombone sing out, "Fuck youuuuu!"

"One day," said Armstrong, "when we were advertising for a ball we ran into Oliver and his band….What a licking those guys gave us! Sure enough when our wagon started to leave, Kid Ory started to play that getaway tune at us. The crowd went mad. We felt terrible about it, but we took it like good sports because there was not any other band that could do that to us. We youngsters were the closest rivals the Ory band had."

Soon King Oliver left the band to try his own hand at being a bandleader. Ory persuaded Louis to replace him. Armstrong stayed with Ory for a year and then left to pursue a musical career on a riverboat playing in Fate Marable's band (whose drummer was Baby Dodds, the younger brother of Johnny Dodds). By 1917, things took a horrible turn for New Orleans jass. So many sailors were getting drunk and rolled in the Storyville district where the jass venues were located that the Navy went to the city's leaders and volunteered to clean the district up for free. The city's leaders—much to the regret of the city ever since—agreed and the Navy sent in roughneck sailors and Shore Patrol to shut down Storyville. They succeeded. There were so many jass musicians and so few venues that most were forced to leave. Freddie Keppard's band, The Original Creole Orchestra, had already established a home for themselves in Chicago. Chicago became the new jass Mecca. King Oliver, Jelly Roll Morton, and others flocked there and found work. Bunk Johnson stayed in New Orleans. Louis stayed on the riverboat and Ory left for California along with trumpeter extraordinaire Mutt Carey where they found gigs in L. A. and later in San Francisco. While there, Ory decided to learn how to read music. He took up the sax, mastering it in a short while, learned to read music and, while tinkering with the instrument, wrote one of the most immortal and enduring songs of early jazz.

Meanwhile, in Chicago, King Oliver formed a great band of former-New Orleans sidemen and one woman—pianist Lillian Hardin—who was from Tennessee where she had been trained as a classical musician at Fisk University. She got her start in jass in 1916 in Chicago when she signed on to play with former-Ory clarinetist Lawrence Duhe whose band also included trumpeter Sugar Johnny, trombonist Roy Palmer, drummer Minor Hall and bassist Wellman Braud. The other band members of Oliver's band were Johnny Dodds, Minor Hall, and Ed Garland (known as Montudie) on bass. Garland had once played bass for the Black Eagle Jazz Band—a later version of Buddy Bolden's original band after Bolden had left under such tragic circumstances. Louis had returned to New Orleans and was playing for Oscar Celestin's band. Oliver sent Ory letters requesting that he come to Chicago and play for him but Ory stayed in California. Oliver picked Honore Dutrey as his trombonist. By 1921, King Oliver's Creole Jazz Band was the hottest band on the market. They made recordings and toured the country including California where Ory booked them a gig at the Pergola dancehall in San Francisco. While in California, Minor Hall argued with Oliver who, as bandleader, allowed no disagreements and was kicked out of the band. Baby Dodds took over drum duties. Montudie Garland quit and was replaced by bassist/banjoist Bill Martin (credited with being the first jass bassist to pluck the bass with his fingers instead of using the bow—which many traditional jass still employ to this day). Martin came from Freddie Keppard's band, which had fragmented because of Keppard's incessant drinking.

In 1922, Ory's band played Dixieland live on the radio. It is believed to be the first time live jazz was ever heard on the radio and many Americans heard jazz music for the first time. The sessions were recorded and released and credited with being the first black band to be recorded playing in New Orleans style (although if Ory is black then I'm Lewis Farrakhan). One of the songs was an Ory original called "Ory's Creole Trombone" which was a big hit.

In 1923, Oliver sent for Louis to come join him and so he did. The band toured to packed houses where people watched in awe as Oliver would improvise complex leads and Louis would follow along in perfect harmony and the two men never even looked at each other for cues. In fact, both played with their eyes closed! Yet never a missed beat, never a note out of place. Lillian Hardin began teaching Louis to read music better than he ever could before and they fell in love and were married in 1924.

Louis and Lillian decided to do some recordings of their own. They picked up guitarist/banjoist Johnny St. Cyr, Johnny Dodds and Louis sent for Ory to come to Chicago to handle trombone duties. This time Ory came, no longer able to resist the allure of Chicago. The band was called the Hot Five and in 1926 they recorded some of the finest jazz ever done. The Hot Five never toured being strictly studio band. During these sessions, Ory played for his mates the song he'd written a couple of years earlier while doodling with the sax. Louis loved it and the band worked out an arrangement and recorded it. According to Ory, when the recordist asked for the title, it occurred to him that he'd never bothered to give it one. Lillian spoke up and said, "It's called 'Muskrat Ramble,' right, Red?" Ory said yes and so that became the title of one of the most famous traditional jazz songs of all time. The producer, however, originally listed the song as "Muskat Ramble" believing that the word "rat" shouldn't be in a song. Louis needed more material for the record so he asked Ory to write something else. Ory came up with "Savoy Blues" another immortal hit of traditional jazz.

Oliver had formed an entirely new band (that included the aforementioned Paul Barbarin on drums and Bud Scott on guitar) and Ory joined it as a sax man. When trombonist George Filhe left the band 6 weeks later, Ory took over trombone. The reed section was already awesome with: Barney Bigard and Darnell Howard (who recorded with W. C. Handy back in 1917). Also that year, Jelly Roll Morton was recording for Victor (not yet RCA-Victor) and he picked his band composed entirely of Creoles from New Orleans: Andrew Hilaire on drums, Johnny St. Cyr on banjo, John Lindsey on bass (also an excellent trombonist), George Mitchell on trumpet, Johnny Dodds on clarinet, Ory on trombone and Jelly Roll handled the piano duties, which he did extremely well. These are some of the finest pieces of jazz ever recorded. Morton arranged all the numbers. Most were his own (he is recognized as jazz's first true composer) but he also did others' numbers including King Oliver's "Dr. Jazz" where Morton also demonstrates his excellent vocal abilities.

By the time the 30s started, a new style of jazz brought about by the likes of Duke Ellington and Count Basie was sweeping the nation. People as Wellman Braud and Barney Bigard made the switch, both played for Ellington. Ory, however, had no wish to play it but the country was so longer interested in New Orleans jazz and Depression only made things worse. In 1933, Ory hung up his trombone seemingly for good and retired from music. He ran a railroad post office for a while and also managed a chicken farm with his brother. For seven years, Ory did not touch a musical instrument.

In 1940, people began to wonder what happened to the music legend of early jazz. Many thought Ory was dead. A woman named Marili Morden, a record storeowner located him in L.A. She got him together with Mutt Carey—Ory's old sideman. They posed for some pictures. Ory had brought his trombone and between photos practiced a bit. It was the first time since 1933 that he had played it. He and Mutt began practicing in 1941 with Bud Scott, Minor Hall and pianist Buster Wilson. In 1942, Barney Bigard left Ellington's band to lead his own. He contacted Ory and asked him to play trombone. Ory was itching to get back into playing after a nine-year hiatus. Bigard, as a favor to his old friend, worked some New Orleans numbers into the repertoire. Ory's presence drew the crowds and people cheered wildly after the New Orleans numbers were played and Ory was allowed to shine.

Ory began playing in small band in the California area. Being very talented, he could play a variety of instruments as well as he did trombone and was able to sit in with bands that otherwise would have had no place for him. Ory played trumpet here, sax there, bass somewhere else, piano, banjo, guitar—you name it.

In 1944, Orson Welles wanted a New Orleans band to play on Mercury Theatre Radio broadcasts. He asked Marili Morden to find one for him. She put together Ory and Carey along with Jimmie Noone, Bud Scott, Ed "Montudie" Garland, Buster Wilson and the great drummer Zutty Singleton. The response by listeners was tremendous and Welles booked the band for 13 consecutive weeks. Ory also appeared in the 1948 movie "New Orleans" with Louis Armstrong and Billie Holiday.

Ory returned to San Francisco where he bought a home and opened a nightclub which turned out to be quite a success. All sorts of jazz talent—old and modern—played there and people got to hear the likes of New Orleans musicians who otherwise never got their due including the fabulous clarinetist Albert Burbank with Ory recorded a live album. By the 1950s, Ory toured Europe where crowds thronged to see the last of the original jazzmen playing in one band. They packed houses everywhere they went. Loyal European fans followed them dutifully from town to town. Ory then recorded a spate of magnificent manic albums with Lester Koenig as engineer. The personnel included pianist Lionel Reason, Minor Hall, Ed Garland, Wellman Braud, trumpeter Alvin Alcorn, pianist Don Ewell, clarinetist George Probert, guitarist Barney Kessel, and many others. He redid "Savoy Blues" and recorded other self-penned tunes as "Do What Ory Say" and "The Girls Go Crazy". Not bad for a man in his 70s!

In 1966, Ed Garland passed away. He was the last of those to play in one of the versions of Buddy Bolden's band (although he never knew Bolden). Ory continued to run his nightclub and tour all the way to the 1970s. On January 23rd 1973, Edward "Kid" Ory passed away in California survived by his wife and child. Kid Ory was perhaps the earliest surviving element of the earliest jazz to record. He was essential to the formation of jazz, one of its prime progenitors.

His influence is enormous and passed from jazz to rock. Country Joe McDonald, for example, was a huge Ory fan and many of his songs have a blatant Ory sound to them. "The Fish Cheer" not only spells out Ory's tailgate taunt from his New Orleans years but the melody is virtually that of "Muskrat Ramble". Today Country Joe is even under a lawsuit from Ory's estate claiming plagiarism. I don't know how that has turned out.

The Good Time Jazz label puts out Ory's 1950s recordings and they are absolutely essential to anyone claiming to have even a moderate interest in jazz.


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Subject: RE: Kid Ory--The Jass Original
From: GutBucketeer
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 04:50 PM

wonderful summary!

Thanks a lot!

JAB


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Subject: RE: Kid Ory--The Jass Original
From: AR282
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 05:37 PM

Whoops! I made a boo-boo. The clarinetist for Jelly Roll's 1926 session was Omer Simeon and not Johnny Dodds. I knew something was bugging me about that.


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Subject: RE: Kid Ory--The Jass Original
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 09:37 PM

Top notch! One of my favourite musicians, and even includes a few things I was unaware of during his long carreer. Can only hope a few folks here take the time to read it......and maybe then go to my favourite net-site and LISTEN to the man.

redhotjazz

Check out the "hot Five" version of Muscrat Ramble, along with Ory's Creole Trombone, and give a listen to Lonnie johnson on Savoy Blues.

Cheers

Rick


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Subject: RE: Kid Ory--The Jass Original
From: GUEST,Kenny B on hols Tenerriffe
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 07:06 AM

Kid Ory was the greatest, his version of Maryland my Maryland with its bugle call trumpet solos make my hair stand on end. Unfortunately Maryland my Maryland is not palyed often on this side of the pond due to it´s political connotations, PC gone mad, as Gen´l Booth of the SA said originally? "Why should the devil have all the good tunes"


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Subject: RE: Kid Ory--The Jass Original
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 08:00 AM

Maryland My Maryland is found on the CD "Favorites" on the Good Time Jazz label (FCD-60-009). This is a great CD which features some of the hardest driving Dixieland you'll ever hear. Minor Hall must have been on crack or something--he's really drives the band on this CD especially when Ory starts to solo. Check out "High Society" as proof. Their version of Wilbur Sweatman's "Down Home Rag" is killer. Wellman Braud really jams on this CD as well. Favorites is one of my all-time favorites.


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Subject: RE: Kid Ory--The Jass Original
From: AR282
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 05:26 PM

Upon further checking, I have run across 2 good sources that say that Ed "Montudi" Garland died in 1980 and not 1966 as I said in my initial post. My original source was not reliable and I shan't put it above these other 2 sources. Many apologies.

One of these sources also said that Ory died in Hawaii and not California. I haven't verified either source on that one so take your pick.

BILLY THE KID ORY?

Many of Buddy Bolden's shows were in places of ill repute. Fights frequently broke out and it was not unusual for murders to take place. From a June 15, 1902 police report comes the following:

"... a difficulty took place at a Negro ball given in the Independent Pleasure Club...between Charles Montrell...and Edward Ory...which resulted in Ory drawing a revolver, 38 caliber, Hopkins & Allen make and firing one shot at Montrell the ball taking effect in his forehead above the right eye enflicting [sic] a mortal wound...Cause of difficulty--Ory claims that Montrell stepped on his foot."

Was this Kid Ory? He'd have been about 15, which was the age that he was when he met Bolden.

The New Orleans Daily Picayune carried the story and added:

"Montrell always cuts quite a figure at the dances, but outside of the slow drag shuffle he was awkward and some of the fancy darkies did not like his style. Ory does not consider himself in the rough head class of negroes and he waxed warm when Montrell, in dancing in the hall about 3:30 yesterday morning danced on his foot."

Ory though may be a common name among Creoles and this could easily be a different Ory. But how many Edward Orys are there likely to be at Buddy Bolden show? Jelly Roll Morton was there and remembered the murder. Since he and Ory were band mates years later, it seems this was not the same Ory. Morton remembered the shooter as a "gouty" fellow who was in great pain after his foot was stepped on. But he also got details wrong, confusing it with another murder that took place a couple of years later. Maybe he confused the shooters as well. Maybe he was covering for his friend. After all, Ory would have been some frightened kid who might have panicked.

At this time, we'd be more just to assume that it was not Kid Ory. But it is interesting, isn't it?


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Subject: RE: Kid Ory--The Jass Original
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 06:10 PM

Kid Ory died in Honolulu, Jan. 23, 1973. There was a brief service in Honolulu. Burial took place at Holy Cross Cemetary in Los Angeles after a service in the cemetery chapel. From Floyd Levin, a pallbearer.
Read about the regal plans for his transport and re-burial in New Orleans next year. ORY
I need to scam $100,000 to make the trip in proper style.


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Subject: RE: Kid Ory--The Jass Original
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 08:55 PM

LOve that story. Sounds legit to me.

Rick


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Subject: RE: Kid Ory--The Jass Original
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 09:25 PM

Some good stories. I would like to see documentation on the Bolden-Ory connection.


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Subject: RE: Kid Ory--The Jass Original
From: AR282
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 10:05 PM

Yeah, you have to be careful of your sources in these matters. There's a lot of misinformation. That book "The Jazzmen" has been responsible for desseminating more bs about Buddy Bolden than anything else. Donald Marquis investigated many claims made in the book and not only found them to be garbage, when he called one of the authors to ask him about it, this fellow admitted it was garbage and had no idea how it got into the book!!!

For example:

-Buddy Bolden was never a barber. His widow, Nora, said Bolden hung out at a barbershop and drank but never was a barber. The barbershop she mentioned was owned by a man who occasionally played bass for Bolden and he also affirmed that Bolden did not work there as a barber. No city records that mentioned Bolden's occupation list him as a barber.

-Bolden did not edit a scandalsheet called "The Cricket". None of Bolden's friends nor Nora recalled any such thing or had any of them ever heard of this paper. Marquis was unable to locate even a single copy.

-Bolden never played at any place called Tin-Type Hall for the simple fact that it never existed. No one remembers it and it was not listed in the New Orleans city records.

-Bunk Johnson never played in Bolden's band despite his claims that he did. Another great jassman, Pete Bocage, was in the same band as Johnson at the time that Johnson claimed to be in Bolden's band and was able to prove it by producing a photograph. No one else ever remembered Bolden using a second cornet.

-The only known photo of Bolden taken with his band was not taken prior to 1895 as Johnson claimed. The bassplayer, Jimmy Johnson, would have only been 11-years-old at the oldest if this was so. It was probably taken about a decade later. Besides the lineup in the photo did not exist prior to about 1902 or so.

So you see what you're up against when you try to get info on early jass and ragtime. In my Joplin thread it was brought out that Joplin married 3 times and not 2 and it can be proven. Yet nearly every source will say Joplin married only twice--which is wrong.

So again, let us establish that Ed Garland died in 1980 and that Ory died in Hawaii--which ain't a bad place to die.

As for documentation of the Bolden-Ory connection, I would seriously doubt any exists. Maybe Ory's sister recalls the time Bolden came to her door. If you're wondering whether Ory ever saw Bolden play, that is almost certainly true. It would have been nearly impossible to go to New Orleans during that time and not have heard Bolden. Ory would have had no problem seeing him during the summers he spent at his sister's house. And someone like Ory would not have missed seeing bolden for the world. Perhaps Jelly Roll Morton and Ory met each other at these shows. Morton mentioned attending them, I don't know if he mentioned meeting or seeing Ory but I'll bet he saw him. A seemingly white freckle-faced kid with red, wavy hair would have stood out.


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Subject: RE: Kid Ory--The Jass Original
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 10:24 PM

"Ory was one of the few jazzmen who knew Bolden." "As for documentation of the Bolden-Ory connection, I would seriously doubt any exists." In other words, a nice bit of speculation.


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Subject: RE: Kid Ory--The Jass Original
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 03 Apr 02 - 12:51 PM

Speculation on whose part? Didn't you read the whole thing? Ory SAYS he met him. If you have a problem with it, take it up with him. It's not for me to question one way or another.


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Subject: RE: Kid Ory--The Jass Original
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Apr 02 - 01:05 PM

Where did Ory say these things? You give no supporting references. Book or Books?
It's up to you to provide documentation for YOUR statements.


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Subject: RE: Kid Ory--The Jass Original
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 03 Apr 02 - 01:21 PM

Anyone know if Danny Barker (who's also been accused of occasionally spinning a 'good yarn') had anything to say on the matter?

Cheers

Rick


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Subject: RE: Kid Ory--The Jass Original
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 04:37 AM

This is a great thread.I joined Mudcat because Ihoped it would be like this. And interesting as it is to hear members views on American politics in Kurdistan, farting contests and bringing Scotland to Christ, this sort of topic has to be the busines. I remember driving school friends mad by playingmy record of Savoy Blues by the Louis Armstrong Hot Five over and over again. Surely the most sublime jazz-record ever made. Kid Ory was a consummate backing musician in an ensemble, encouraging and propelling everyone else and making them all play just that little bit better than they normally did.what a gift.And I'm glad your thread raised the question of Ory's, not always mentioned in sleevenotes and histories. Anybody seeing photos for the first time must have thought, Emperor's New Clothes style, "Well, nobody else is mentioning it so I'd better not, but he doesnt appear to be black". Same goes for Jelly Roll Morton. And then of course you get into New Orleans history and it all starts to fall into place.Anyway, what a man. The history of music in the 20th century is essentially the struggle of people inthe rest of the world to understand, assimilate and then adapt the ideas of a handfulof pioneers in New Orleans (never was so much owed by so many to so few)..and Kid ory was one of the few. Thanks for starting the thread.


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Subject: RE: Kid Ory--The Jass Original
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 11:34 AM

Back in pre-history, when I was first starting to listen to "roots" music* I also noticed that several New Orleans jazz musicians in those early pictures looked quite caucasian. being 15 at the time I just figured that in New Orleans the bands must have been integrated by then. Silly me....didn't know anything about Creole backgrounds or the incredible diversity in that part of Louisiana.

One of the great 'reads' of my life was a book called "Really, The Blues", by Mezz Mezzrow. He's become one of my favourite characters. A white jewish kid from the mid-west, he was a hustler, dope dealer, band organizer, and (very shaky) clarinet player. He became totally obsessed with preserving the 'original' jazz sound, and wanted to be black so badly that he gave his race as 'negro' on driver's licenses, union cards, and passports.

He wasn't thought of too highly if you read others' accounts of the era, probably (and this is just my guess) 'cause he was a real 'in your face guy', tolerated because he supplied the grass (he called them "mezz-rolls") and often pissed off 'cause his lack of consistent musical skills got him bounced from a lot of bands....UNTIL......

He moved to Europe.....and The French LOVED him! He hooked up with Sidney Bechet and had quite a successful recording carreer into the forties.

His connection with Ory? (other than the fact that they knew each other well) Ory was a great ensemble player but often on recordings his solos were thought to be pretty unimaginative. Like Mezzrow, the Kid was at his best live, apparently.

I'm paraphrasing from some of the writings of Lil Armstrong, Eddie Condon, and Danny Barker.

Cheers

Rick


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Subject: RE: Kid Ory--The Jass Original
From: AR282
Date: 06 Apr 02 - 09:10 AM

To Dicho

The vast bulk of my material came from various liner notes on the Good Time Jazz CDs. I also used Donald Marquis's "In Search of Buddy Bolden" and Chilton's "Who's Who of Jazz". It was in the latter two sources that I corrected my original errors.


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Subject: RE: Kid Ory--The Jass Original
From: AR282
Date: 06 Apr 02 - 09:16 AM

Probably few of the old jassmen sound as good on record as they did live. The same thing was said of King Oliver. That's often the fault of engineers and producers trying to control how these guys played instead of letting them cut loose.

I think Lester Koenig got it right. The Ory stuff from the 50s is the quintessential Dixieland--in stereo no less.


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Subject: RE: Kid Ory--The Jass Original
From: GUEST,John McCusker
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 07:23 AM

Ed Garland died in 1980 not 1966.


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Subject: RE: Kid Ory--The Jass Original
From: GUEST,John McCusker
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 10:53 AM

The Ed Ory in that report was not Kid Ory but another man who lived in New Orleans in the Treme. This is about 3 years before Ory first travels to New Orleans.


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Subject: RE: Kid Ory--The Jazz Original
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 11:27 AM

I love orys playing ,particularly orys creole trombone


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Subject: RE: Kid Ory--The Jazz Original
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 12:17 PM

here it is
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXc9xfBpk54


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Subject: RE: Kid Ory--The Jazz Original
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 12:52 PM

I was lucky enough to see Kid Ory and his band when they toured Europe in 1959. I'm pretty certain that they played at the Odeon, Leicester Square.


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Subject: RE: Kid Ory--The Jazz Original
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 05:25 AM

Terry,

The Kid Ory gig was at the Gaumont State Theatre, Kilburn. I was there too. If they had appeared at Leicester Square I would have been there also but I believe Kilburn was the only London date.


Hoot


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Subject: RE: Kid Ory--The Jazz Original
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 07:05 AM

Wow, people who've seen Kid Ory. I am trembling. I shall go and put on "Savoy Blues". What a great record.


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Subject: RE: Kid Ory--The Jazz Original
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 09:28 AM

Hottenanny - I'm sure you're correct. I'm muddling my Gaumonts with my Odeons. I saw a number of top American artistes in those days including George Lewis, the MJQ, Earl Hines and Jack Teagarden, Muddy Waters etc. Often they'd play Bournemouth but on occasion I had to travel to London. I remember seeing the Weavers and Rambling Jack Elliott at the Festival Hall, for instance.


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Subject: RE: Kid Ory--The Jazz Original
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 10:34 AM

Hi Terry,
I can tick all those on your list except the MJQ, at that time a little too far out for my taste.

Greg,

I still have in my collection(until tomorrow that is) that Ory item and others on 78 rpm shellac. Remember them?

Hoot


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Subject: RE: Kid Ory--The Jazz Original
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 10:55 AM

Here we are, the greatest record ever made.
Kid Ory's tune "Savoy Blues" played by the Louis Armstrong Hot Five. Plus Lonnie Johnson guesting on guitar, playing the famous solo.


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Subject: RE: Kid Ory--The Jazz Original
From: GUEST,Doc John
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 01:04 PM

How lucky to have see Kid Ory: I was just that bit too young to be let out! I had to be contented with Chris Barber. We collected the records though: this was 'proper' jazz not that Dave Brubeck stuff - far too middle class parlour music it seems in those days. We used to wonder how all those old men could play this frantic music; they don't look quite so old now but they were hardly spring chickens. I always admire Kid Ory for not selling out when the the New Orleans Jazz became less popular, not giving way to saxes etc. At the time he wasn't to know the New Orleans Revival would happen. Pity Johnny Dodds died so young.


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Subject: RE: Kid Ory--The Jazz Original
From: Wesley S
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 01:51 PM

I saw Rick Fielding old post suggesting that we listen to Kid Ory play Muskrat Ramble. Considering MY age and listening experience I couldn't help but notice the similarity between that and Counrty Joe McDonalds "Fell Like I'm Fixing to Die Rag".


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Subject: RE: Kid Ory--The Jazz Original
From: GUEST,John McCusker
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 09:49 PM

Hate to tell you Doc John...Ory had two saxes in his California band 1922-25.


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Subject: RE: Kid Ory--The Jazz Original
From: GUEST,John McCusker
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 09:50 PM

Similarity Wesley? Hell no. It's the same damn song. He just stole it outright.


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Subject: RE: Kid Ory--The Jazz Original
From: GUEST,John McCusker
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 10:04 PM

I'm thrilled that there's a Kid Ory discussion going on, but the history above is really bad. So many things are wrong I don't know where to begin.
For example: "However, in 1907, on his 21st birthday, Ory and his band promptly lit out of Laplace and made a beeline for New Orleans "to crack the big time." His band entered a competition at Dixie Park going up against Bob Frank's Peerless Orchestra whom they smoked."
Ory moved to New Orleans in 1910 not 1907. He took on BAB Frank's band not Bob. Ory thought he was 21 when he moved to the city. He was actually 23.
Also: "By 1916, he hired clarinetist Jimmie Noone, roundly considered the best to ever play the instrument, even more so than Benny Goodman."
Not very likely. Jimmie Noone was in the band in 1918. Johnny Dodds was its clarinetist in 1916.
Then there's: "He ran a railroad post office for a while and also managed a chicken farm with his brother."
He didn't run anything. He was a janitor at the railroad. Manage a chicken farm? He and his brother raised chickens yes..but only for a year. His brother died in 1939 a year after moving to LA.
Finally: "Montudie Garland quit and was replaced by bassist/banjoist Bill Martin"
No. He was replaced by Bill Johnson.


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Subject: RE: Kid Ory--The Jazz Original
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 06:50 AM

Ory's daughter, Babette Ory, is alive and well and - last time I heard from her about a year ago - working as a chef. We got into correspondence because I posted a solo guitar version of "Muskrat Ramble" on YouTube. I'd commented that I believed it to have been ripped off by, and unacknowledged by, Country Joe MacDonald when he used the melody and chords for his "Fixin' To Die Rag". Babette contacted me to express thanks for the comments. I understand that she'd entered into a lawsuit to try and claim royalties from Joe MacDonald but, because of the time lag in doing so, her claim was disallowed.


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Subject: RE: Kid Ory--The Jazz Original
From: GUEST,Dimitri Papadimitriou
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 09:56 PM

Hi everyone. I am a student from Sydney, Australia and I am writing my thesis on Kid Ory's input regarding New Orleans Jazz both as a musician and bandleader. I am so happy to see how many people still admire the man and I came across this thread from doing research on the net.

I have a question to ask John McCusker and it would be of great importance to get back to me if he could! You say that Ory moved to New Orleans in 1910 and not 1907. In his 1957 interview conducted by Ertegun and Campell housed in the Hogan Jazz Archive, Ory himself mentions he went there in 1907. It would be of great importance for my research to determine the exact year, so if you could share your source for this matter it would be greatly appreciated.

Also, you mention that he worked as a janitor at the railroad. Again, the bibliography is full of the 'chicken business' story, thus it would be great if you could reveal your source regarding this matter as well. These are both far away from being 'prestige' jobs so that is why it doesn't make sense to me why he would lie about this.

To Will Fly, is there any chance I could get in touch with Babette? Do you have any kind of contact information for her?

My kindest regards to everyone on this thread and keep up the great work!


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Subject: RE: Kid Ory--The Jazz Original
From: PoppaGator
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 02:39 PM

Back in the 60s when I first heard "Fixin' to Die Rag," the melody was immediately familiar, but I didn't know it by the title "Muskrat Ramble." Perhaps Joe McDonald thought the same thing that I did ~ that the melody was old/traditional/anonymous/public-domain.

Of course, that was back before I first visited New Orleans, where I would stay for the reat of my life, and where I gradually accumulated a bit of knowledge concerning the early days of jazz. Now I know the title, and that Kid Ory was the composer.


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Subject: RE: Kid Ory--The Jazz Original
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 04:24 PM

To make the comparison, here is the first recording of Muskrat Ramble , by the Louis Armstrong Hot Five featuring Ory on trombone. Pops Foster, and others I believe, were critical of Ory's lack of technique and excessive use of the slide, as he never knew what note he was going to play next. Listen well, I think you may disagree. I love Ory's sliding, anyway.


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Subject: RE: Kid Ory--The Jazz Original
From: Will Fly
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 04:59 PM

Dimitri - Babette Ory and I got in touch through YouTube - I don't now know her email address - but you can leave a message for her at her YT channel: chefessboo

She works as a chef - hence the handle "chefessboo".


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Subject: RE: Kid Ory--The Jazz Original
From: voyager
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 03:04 PM

Regarding the thread.....Muskrat Ramble & FTDR -

I sent an email to Country Joe McDonald back in '98 when I also realized that Fixin' To Die Rag was lifted from the Kid Ory classic. Here's what Country Joe wrote back -

'Yes they are almost the same. I played the trombone from 9yrs-15yrs old and was being prepared for the LA Symphony and USC but in my senior year I took up the guitar and rock and roll and gave up the trombone and plans for symphonies and college. During my HS years I had a Dixieland group. We played together often for our own fun and I listened to lots of traditional jazz. Of course, Muskrat Ramble was one of the tuen we played. It just crept into FTDR that day in 1965 where I wrote it. There are some differences but many similarities. Cheers - CJM'

See also Everything Muskrat

voyager


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Subject: RE: Kid Ory--The Jazz Original
From: Stringsinger
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 12:25 PM

When I was young, I would go to the Beverly Caverns in Los Angeles to hear Ory play with Teddy Buckner, a fine trumpet player in the Armstrong tradition. He was considerably older then, but played so well in his inimitable shouting and tailgate style. I was enamored of New Orleans jass at the time and as my friend Ed Cray recalls,I had the temerity to ask if I could try his trombone. Ory, generous and warm, actually allowed me to do it with great amusement on his part. I think he really appreciated that a young kid would love the old style New Orleans jazz.

I was imprinted with early jazz by a few experiences:
1. Sitting in on trombone at the 47 Club in North Hollywood with Zutty Singleton.
2. Hearing Louis, Jack T., Cozy Cole and Barney Bigard (with Velma Middleton) at the Shrine Auditorium concerts every year.
3. Standing in the Second Line in a parade talking to Big Jim Robinson (of Bunk's band) en route to a funeral and barbecue in Gretna.
4. Meeting Johnny St. Cyr in a Burbank park where I was practicing a five-string banjo under a tree. He came up to me and politely told me he played banjo too.
I didn't know who he was at the time and I could kick myself today for not being smart or old enough to ask him all kinds of questions. He was a nice man.
5. Playing Dick Robert's banjo (he let me try it). He was with the Firehouse Five plus Two at the time.
6. Being on the opposite band at the New Orleans Jazz Club with Oscar "Papa" Celestine. There was a race mixing ban in New Orleans which meant black and white musicians could not play on the same stage together in the Fifties. "Papa" played his memorable "Just A Closer Walk With Thee" which I remember to this day.
7. Jamming with trombone at the Four Aces up the street from The Famous Door on Bourbon Street.
8. Sitting in with a one-armed trumpet player (not Wingy Manone) in a strip club on Canal Street in New Orleans where I could reach out with my trombone slide and practically touch the stripper.

Today, I play trad jazz accompaniment on my Martin 0021 with a clarinet player friend.


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Subject: RE: Kid Ory--The Jazz Original
From: Stringsinger
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 12:27 PM

And I jam with imho one of the best tenor banjo players in the country, maybe in the world who you've never heard of. Bill Rutan.


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Subject: RE: Kid Ory--The Jazz Original
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 11:12 AM

To Dimitri Papadimitriou:
"Creole Trombone: The Early Life of Kid Ory" comes out next year, University of Mississippi Press. It will answer your question about when Ory moved to New Orleans and fully explain why it could not have been 1907.


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Subject: RE: Kid Ory--The Jazz Original
From: GUEST,My time with Kid Ory
Date: 21 Nov 11 - 07:45 PM

I was the host/announcer at the Beverley Cavern in Hollywood when we broadcast for a half hour nightly on live radio. Kid Ory was a fine gentleman and taught me much about Dixieland music. So many greats sat in with the band when they were in town. I was enraptured. The year and a half I broadcast six nights a week in 1948 and 1949 were golden times for me. On Monday nights different band would be at the Cavern; The Firehouse Plus Two, Dick Cathcart's band, Conrad Janis and his Tailgage Five, Teddy Buckner, etc., etc.

Alan Jeffory


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