Lyr Req: Boys of barr na sraide

Subject: Boys of barr na sraide, the
From: GUEST,niall
Date: 03 Apr 02 - 03:21 PM

I'm looking for the lyrics of the boys of barr na sraide i have heard it sung and tought it was a tremendous ballad, if any one outthere has it i'd be very grateful thanks a million niall

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Boys of barr na sraide
From: Sorcha
Date: 03 Apr 02 - 03:25 PM

Posted in the forum....Boys of Barr

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Boys of barr na sraide
From: michaelr
Date: 03 Apr 02 - 08:56 PM

I just read the previous thread and am curious -- is there any relation between Sigerson Clifford and the "G. Sigerson" who wrote "The Mountains of Pomeroy"?

Michael

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Boys of barr na sraide
From: MartinRyan
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 09:29 AM

Michael

As mentioned in the earlier thread, Sigerson was his mothers maiden name. Not sure if she was related to George - I'll try to check.

Regards

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Boys of barr na sraide
From: GUEST,nicky
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 10:05 AM

hi !! does anyone have the sheet music to Boys of Barr na Sraide?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Boys of barr na sraide
From: ard mhacha
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 04:31 PM

Listen to Niamh Parsons lovely singing of this song on YouTube, lorgain2

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Boys of barr na sraide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 06:12 PM

Can anything beat Christy singing this on Live In Dublin? :-)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Boys of barr na sraide
From: Big Tim
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 12:07 PM

I used to think that Moore's version couldn't be 'bettered'; that was until I heard Tim Dennehy sing the song. Tim is from Cahersiveen (Barr) where the song is set and his version is more 'authentic' (Not Christy's fault that he is not from Kerry). Tim gets the place names in the song right(unlike Christy) and his pronunciation of 'Barr na Sráide' is alone worth the album price. It's on his album 'Between the Mountains and the sea: TD sings the songs of Sigerson Clifford', check Tim's website.

SG wasn't related to George Sigerson.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Boys of barr na sraide
From: MartinRyan
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 06:00 PM

Big Tim

That's Munster Irish for you! "Sráide" is a very difficult word to pronounce correctly. There's no "Sh" effect and the ái isn't a diphthong!


Regards

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Boys of barr na sraide
From: Big Tim
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 06:03 AM

Martin,

Can you give us your phonetc version of TD's pronunciation?
It's weird, I've listened to it dozens of times but still can't master it. Sounds something like 'borr na shraithkam' !!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Boys of barr na sraide
From: Big Tim
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 06:33 AM

Martin,

I forgot about Seán Garvey's version, I suppose you know it.
His pronunciation seems pretty 'straightforward' - barr na sraida.
According to his website he too is from Cahersiven, is an Irish language teacher, and Singer in Residence of a Gaeltacht region in South Kerry. I'd appreciate your opinion of his pronunciation too.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Boys of barr na sraide
From: MartinRyan
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 06:40 AM

Big Tim

I'll have a close listen to both recordings when I have a chance. I suspect the "m" effect you're hearing from Tim is a singer's trick rather than a linguistic tic!

Regards

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Boys of barr na sraide
From: MartinRyan
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 07:07 AM

Yep - I think I'm right. They have the same pronunciation - apart from that intrusive -m in Tim's singing. I'm quite sure it wouldn't appear in his speech.

Most people tend to produce the word as
shraw-duh    i.e. two syllables and a distinct sh- start.

Both Kerrymen use a sibilant s, separate the accented a from the i (it's really an extreme slenderising) and lighten the sound of the e. So it becomes three syllables, roughly:
sssss-raw-id-eh

Regards

p.s. Apologies for the crude phonetics....

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Boys of barr na sraide
From: GUEST,Suffolk Miracle
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 09:09 AM

Can anything beat Christy singing this on Live In Dublin?

Yes. Mike Henry at the Gardener's Arm, Oxford 35 years ago. And I gather he's still going, so he's probably improved!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Boys of barr na sraide
From: Big Tim
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 10:51 AM

Thanks Martin, much appreciated.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Boys of barr na sraide
From: Big Tim
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 03:22 PM

Interesting that Mike Henry was singing the song in Oxford 35 years ago. That's some 5 years prior to the Christy Moore recording (1978) (which I still think is the seminal one). Oxford is quite a geographical and cultural distance from Caher. Wonder where he (Mike Henry) learned it?

As far as I can make out, the song was first aired on Irish radio by baritone Seán Ó Síocháin on 'The Balladmakers Saturday Night' in the early 1950s. First in print in SG's 'Ballads of a Bogman' (1955) tho it may have appeard in some local newspaper before that.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Boys of barr na sraide
From: MartinRyan
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 04:48 PM

Just to avoid confusion - that should be SC for Sigerson Clifford rather than SG.

Regards

p.s. "The Balladmakers Saturday Night" is one of my earliest radio memories! I think I used to have to keep switching between it and the "Voice Of America Jazz Hour"!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Boys of barr na sraide
From: Big Tim
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 05:57 AM

Just a small point re SC's biog, he was actually born in Cork city (at 11 Dean Street, in 1913), tho both his parents were from Kerry.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Boys of barr na sraide
From: GUEST,Suffolk Miracle
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 08:57 AM

Wonder where he (Mike Henry) learned it?

Certainly not from the Moore recording since he was singing it in 1971. I believe he is from Co. Mayo but I could be horribly wrong. At any rate he used to make regular trips back to Ireland every month or so to watch the Hurling. He may well have hunted out songs at the same time.

Perhaps someone in the area could ask him. I am now far far away.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Boys of barr na sraide
From: Big Tim
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 11:32 AM

It's a pity that Christy didn't include the song in his book 'One Voice' as that might have given a clue as to how he learned the song.

It's thought that the air, a variant of The Flower of Sweet Strabane, may have been suggested by Seán O Shea, the South Kerry artist and raconteur, a close friend of Clifford's, who was almost certainly the first to be shown the lyric. (Per Tim Dennehy)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Boys of barr na sraide
From: Gulliver
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 09:51 AM

I first heard the song in 1973 in Toner's in Dublin, sung by a chap from Cork called Dinny (Dennis). He later played around Holland and Germany until he got arthritis--often wondered what happened to him...

Don

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Boys of barr na sraide
From: GUEST,O Curnain
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 10:57 AM

In relation to the song appearing in the original Ballads of a Bogman,by Sigerson Clifford, i have been on to Tralee Library and they told me that the song is not in the 1955 edition. Ref. ISBN 185635 010 X. but does appear in the 1986 edition ? they kindly printed me off the 1955 contents page. Can anyone throw a bit off light on the subject. i have also heard that the song was sung on radio in the 1950s. Cheers

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Boys of barr na sraide
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 01:25 PM

Interesting. It's certainly in the Mercier Press editon of 1986, under the title "The Boys of Barr na Sraide", as the last entry. There are neither notes or preface commenting on any changes from the first edition. Wonder if it was added later? Any chance you could transcribe the listing Tralee library gave you?

I'll make a few checks.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Boys of barr na sraide
From: Declan
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 02:40 PM

Chrisry prefaces the song on Live in Dublin by saying I've heard three people singing this song, and two of them are dead. He goes on to incorrectly say the song is about a street in Listowel.

I'm pretty sure I've heard Christy saying he learned it from Sean Garvey.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Boys of barr na sraide
From: Big Tim
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 03:33 PM

Some Caher locals weren't too happy with Christy's version, thinking that maybe he'd changed some of the lyrics deliberately (especially saying Carham River, instead of Carhan.) Carhan is well known locally as the birthplace of Daniel O'Connell tho we can hardly expect Christy to have known that.

In the booklet with Tim Dennehy's album there's a 1928 picture of the 'boys' at the Christian Brothers School, Cahersiveen. SG is included in the pic but only one of the names referenced in the song is included: John Daly. (There's a John Sheehan, but no Con or Dan).

btw, I never liked Sean Garvey's version much!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Boys of barr na sraide
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 04:26 PM

I'll try to check the first edition of "Ballads of a Bogman". I seem to remember the poem (under its original title) being published in a Comhaltas magazine - in the 50's or early '60's? I'll check. As of now, there seems to be no independent evidence of the rival claim.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Boys of barr na sraide
From: ard mhacha
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 05:53 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=el_yjhkRrnU

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Boys of barr na sraide
From: GUEST,O Curnain
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 07:14 AM

this is the contents list from 1955 edition. o drink your porter
tinker man~ the ballad of the tinkers son~ the winkle woman~ the ballad of the tinkers wife~ i am kerry~ the tinkers wake~ the fiddler~ the ballad of the tinkers daughter~ the tale of the tinker man~ the boy remembers his father~ brother mick~ gubby donovans pig~ the circus~ the ballad of lascar rock~ country pub~ the races.
In the 1986 edition the following also appear. the ballads of a tinkers xmas~ the kerry carol~ lenihans bazaar~ the ghost train to croke park~ kerry footballers~ the county Mayo~ Roger Casement~ the old school~ m.j.mac manus~ francis ledwidge~ boys of barr na sraide. Would be interested to know what year Sean O Siochain sang barr na sraide on " the balladmakers saturday night" radio program ?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Boys of barr na sraide
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 07:20 AM

On Tim Dennehy's website, Seán is quoted as follows:

In a note to me shortly before his death Seán Ó Síocháin rightly claimed to have popularised it on radio: "It was my good fortune in the early fifties to get to know and admire Sigerson through our role in the very popular Radio Éireann programme, 'The Ballad Makers' Saturday Night'. I take pardonable pride in the fact that it was my good fortune to have been selected to sing, 'The Boys of Barr na Sráide', which was requested again and again and which was acknowledged as being the most popular song of the series".

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Boys of barr na sraide
From: GUEST,O Curnain
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 07:30 AM

thanks guest, Im trying to tease out if the song was so popular and widely requested how come it does not appear in the ballads of a bogman 1955 edition ?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Boys of barr na sraide
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 08:51 AM

Poetry collections are traditionally "slim volumes" i.e. selective! Mercier may have simply added additional material due to the much wider interest in Clifford when they did the reprint. It's a pity they didn't spell out the alterations, alright.

I think I may have a copy of the Comhaltas article I mentioned earlier - which would have predated the Mercier reprint IIRC. It may have some detail - I'll have a look for it when I get a chance.

BTW I asked about the Table of Contents because "The Boys.." was not the original title.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Boys of barr na sraide
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 09:13 AM

Thanks again Guest, this is a subject that has interested me for a while now, i have been fortunate enough to speak to Dan Courtneys surviving 3 daughters , they are adament that their father sent this song to Sigerson as they say ,"to get his opinion on it", Sigerson never replied back to him. Its hard not to believe them when speaking with them , all they want is that their father gets the recognition that he deserves for composing this wonderful song. i have gathered alot of his other songs and the style of his writing is most similar to the boys of barr na sraide, he was writing songs when Sigerson was still a young boy. Some day it would be nice to get to the bottom of this story though.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Boys of barr na sraide
From: Big Tim
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 04:24 PM

A boy called Pat Courtney is included in the 1928 pic, but no Dan. I suppose that failing human memory could have resulted in the photo being mis-captioned. ('Photo courtesy of Michael D. O'Shea'). I have an old school class photo of my own, from 1957, (in Glasgow, not Caher!) and I can only recall about two thirds of the kids names,even then with no guarantee that my memory is accurate).

I have loved this song since the first time I heard it and would be very saddened if it were established that SG stole someone else's composition. The Caher tourist people would have to seriously consider demolishing the SG sculpture and plaque memorial that was erected in Caher about six months after his death in 1985, for 'Barr' is indeed the 'anthem' of the town.

Do Dan Courtney's daughters know what year they claim that their father send the song to SG? And what age would he have been at that time for 'Barr' sounds like a song by an elderly man reminiscing about his childhood

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Boys of barr na sraide
From: meself
Date: 21 Oct 09 - 03:20 AM

It SOUNDS like a song by an elderly man - but that does not mean that it IS by an elderly man, necessarily. It is not uncommon for those of a poetic disposition to express what might be characterised as a heightened awareness of or sensitivity to the passing of time - how old was Burns when he wrote Auld Lang Syne?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Boys of barr na sraide
From: Big Tim
Date: 21 Oct 09 - 05:00 AM

I still think it would be interesting if Dan Courtney's age could be established.

btw, digressing more than somewhat, the origial 'Auld Lang Syne' was written, not by Burns, but by Scots poet Allan Ramsay (1684-1758). Burns was born in 1759!

Ramsay's original 'ALS' was included in volume 1 of 'The Scots Musical Museum' (1788), when Burns would have been aged 29. Burns contributed numerous of his original works to the SMM and these are all credited to him. ALS is attributed to Ramsay. Burns was involved in the production of the SMM and must surely have agreed with said attribution. Below is the first verse of Ramsay's 5 verse work.

Should auld acquaintance be forgot,
Tho' they return with fcars [scars],
Thefe [these] are the noble hero's lot,
Obtain'd in glorious wars:
Welcome my Varo [sic] to my breaft [breast],
Thine arms about me twine,
And make me once again as bleft [blessed],
As I was in auld land fyne [syne].

It's just occurred to as I type this that in Burns' version, he is often praised for his use of the word 'thine' ('and gie's a hand o' thine') for juxtaposing the sacred (biblical 'thine') and the profane, or something like that. But as can be seen, he cribbed it from Ramsay! Generally tho, Burns was essentially honest and usually gave credit where credit was due.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Boys of barr na sraide
From: GUEST,O Curnain
Date: 21 Oct 09 - 09:48 AM

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Boys of barr na sraide
From: meself
Date: 21 Oct 09 - 01:00 PM

Interesting about ALS - thanks for the info. Burns' version is a considerable improvement, it seems to me. But now we have the question of how old Ramsay was when he wrote ALS - which is not so much a rhetorical question as my question about Burns.

What you would want to know about Courtney's vital stats, I would think, is whether he was of the generation of which the young men could have "dared the Auxies, and fought the Black and Tan". Assuming that the song consists of someone's genuine memories of his youth, rather than someone's imaginings of an old man's memories ....

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Boys of barr na sraide
From: GUEST,O Curnain
Date: 21 Oct 09 - 03:04 PM

Dan Courtney was born in the parish of Dromid in 1888. As far as i can gather he sent the song to Sigerson early 50s. He was over 60 then. His brother John was married and lived in the Fair green/field a stones throw from barr na sraide. its funny as Dan was a staunch republication and John was in the RIC. another brother was Fr Tadhy O Curnain who was parish priest in Causeway. Here are 2 verses from a song of Dans called " John by the Caol og side" written in the late 20s. In Eirns cause those lads so gay were willing to dare and die, and with shot-guns and pikes they attacked the Tans one Sunday at Tooreensigh. Through the leaden spray they cut their way and they peppered John Bulls hide , and that night they danced and sang at Johns , at Johns by the caol og side.
Now Bolus 'neath nightcap of fleecy mist looks lazely 'oer the lea, and the Bull Rock wheels its ghostly gleam 'oer the silvery silent sea. Rineen lone lighthouse with lights long lowered looks cold 'oer the Currane tide , But as dimmed as its lamps is the dance at Johns - at Johns by the caol og side.   Songs Of Iveragh 2009.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Boys of barr na sraide
From: Big Tim
Date: 21 Oct 09 - 03:59 PM

And when i take my long last sleep and death shall come to me
then lay me down by that old town beneath the hills and sea
Ill take my sleep in those green fields where first my life began
where the Boys of barr na Sraide went hunting for the wren.

On the other 'Barr na Sraide' thread the above verse was said by Mr O Curnain to have been written by Dan Courtney. If so, what I can't understand is why a man from Dromid, about eight miles southeast as the crow flies from Cahersiveen but closer to 20 by road, should write 'that old town...where first my life began'. And also want to be buried there. Why didn't he write about his love of Dromid?

btw, my apologies to Robert Burns, he didn't crib the word 'thine' from Ramsay. My mistake.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Boys of barr na sraide
From: GUEST,O Curnain
Date: 21 Oct 09 - 06:43 PM

i suppose a way to explain it is that he was a song writer, for instance the song i mentioned in above thread "John by the caol og side" the following lines are hand written on the original composition - Where the Murphys live in Aghatubrid and its immediate vicinity is called caol og from a riverlet that flows down at the east of Johns. An IRA man sang this song on the eve of his departure for the USA. he sang it at his American wake.- There are 16 verses to this song recalling battles fought with the Tans etc , a battle in Gurrane, an attempt by Republicans to re- take Killorglin Town etc, it does not mean that he was there at these events( maybe he was i dont know)this was his style of writing . with ref to where first my life began , the same could be said for Sigerson , he wasnt born in Cahirciveen. By road to his old home is 8 miles but the way that was most commonly used was over the Beandubh ridge and thru Rehill into the east end of Cahirciveen . this was a far shorter Journey.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Boys of barr na sraide
From: Big Tim
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 02:50 PM

I had forgotten that people then thought nothing of walking what we would nowadays regard as long distances. However, even over the Beandubh ridge, via Rehill (the source of the Carhan River) was about 7 miles and necessitated a hike from virtually sea-level over the 1000 feet ridge. I can't see from my 1.27 inches to the mile Irish Ordnance Survey map any road route that comes anywhere close to 8 miles. However, as always, I'm willing to be enlightened.

I'm afraid I still can't see why someone from Dromid should claim Caher as his home town. That would be like me, a native of Crockglass (Donegal) claiming Carndonagh, 9 miles away, as my home town. Again tho, I'm willing to be enlightened.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Boys of barr na sraide
From: meself
Date: 22 Oct 09 - 11:02 PM

Well, it may or may not be useful to compare TBOBNS with other known, undisputed works by the two men in question. The only other relevant work that I know of is the one Big Tim put up on another thread, 'I am Kerry', by Clifford. This in its craftsmanship, imagery, form, is far more of a 'literary' production than TBOBNS. It is clearly the work of someone who had read the important poets of the previous hundred years, while TBOBNS COULD be the work of a relatively unlettered person, which is an element of its charm. That doesn't prove anything; just an observation. Is Clifford known to have written other poems or songs more in the style of TBOBNS?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Boys of barr na sraide
From: GUEST,O Curnain
Date: 23 Oct 09 - 06:49 AM

With Respect Big Tim ,ref to why Dan would want to be buried in Cahirciveen when he was not from there, is missing the point that I was making above, the I in the song is a figure of speech, this was his style of writing. ( Dans mother was Ellen O Connell a grand niece of the Liberator) like his song John by the caol og side, its about the golden years before the civil war singing and dancing in John Murphys Hse (still Standing) in Aghatubrid , and how this all changed due to the horrors of civil war .Dan was a farmer who reared his family on the Southern slope of Beandubh Mountain . He spent most of his time composing songs , the majority were written in Irish as he was a fluent speaker.He lived all his life there. I know from speaking with his daughters that he sent the song Sigerson in Dublin ( open to correction here think they were 2nd or 3rd cousins)for his opinion but he never got a response back, sometime later an air was put to it, and as Sean O Siochain was a friend of Cliffords the song was sung on Balladmakers Saturday night radio program and the rest is history !! With hindsight he may have written this song with Sigerson in mind?? maybe this is another angle to the tale.I suppose we will never know!!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Boys of barr na sraide
From: GUEST,O Curnain
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 11:31 AM

Relating to my above thread, i looked a bit more into how Dan and Sigerson were related, to the best of my knowledge, Sigersons Great Grandfather Michael O Connell and Dan Courtneys mother Ellen were brother and sister. The above Michael O Connells daughter Mary died aged 24 ( possibly in or around child- birth .Her baby son Michael was Sigersons Father.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Boys of barr na sraide
From: meself
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 12:47 PM

First-cousins thrice-removed ... I think.