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Lyr Req: Fish and Tin and Copper
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fish & Tin & Copper From: Kernow John Date: 07 May 02 - 06:25 AM Thanks Joe KJ |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fish & Tin & Copper From: MMario Date: 06 May 02 - 08:26 AM tune posted Fish & Tin &copper in another thread |
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Subject: Tune Add: FISH, TIN AND COPPER From: Kernow John Date: 06 May 02 - 03:39 AM Sorry Couldn't find the thread about this song but thought someone may want the tune. X: 1 T:Fish, Tin and Copper M:6/8 L:1/8 K:D D2E|F2FF2D|G2GG2E| F2FF2D|E3-E2E|F2FF2F| G2AB2d|A2GF2E|D3 % Output from ABC2Win Version 2.1 i on 06/05/2002 KJ Message transferred to this thread -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fish & Tin & Copper From: GUEST,greg stephens Date: 21 Apr 02 - 11:14 AM my cookie never seems to stay set for more thana couple of minutes these days. "Does a song have a title" is a very interesting philosophical question. A commercially writen or copyrighted song will undoubtedly have a title, because the author will want it documented. Folk songs may only acquire what you might call a title if someone records them . I suppose they must have some way that people refer to them when requesting them in a pub. I would say "Gor bugger jagger" "cor bugger jagger" or "where be going to jagger" ( in case you dont like saying or writng b*****) |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fish & Tin & Copper From: Jim Dixon Date: 21 Apr 02 - 10:06 AM Greg Stephens: Does that song have a title? |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fish & Tin & Copper From: GUEST,greg stephens Date: 19 Apr 02 - 06:43 AM perhaps I'll record it and submit it to the Mudcat CD committee...though the bugger and arse might disqualify it on grounds of good taste and insufficient high-mindedness. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fish & Tin & Copper From: GUEST,micca at work Date: 19 Apr 02 - 06:06 AM MMario, make a note, and If I get to the Getaway this year I will SING the tune for you!!!! |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fish & Tin & Copper From: GUEST,greg stephens Date: 19 Apr 02 - 03:57 AM the tune of the second chorus(we'll all go back to oggieland) is AKA "We are marching to Pretoria(or Peoria)". Also H Kitty looks as if her version has a different verse and chorus pattern from mine. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fish & Tin & Copper From: Herga Kitty Date: 19 Apr 02 - 02:46 AM MMario It's in 4/4 time - first 5 lines all the notes have equal value until you get to the last one and hold for 4 beats. Then "Gor" is 2 beats, "And we'll" takes up the last beat after "jagger", /"all go back to /Og (1/2)gie (1/2)land (2 1/2) "to"(1/2)/ "Og gie land to" /"Og gie land. And we'll"/ "All go back to" / "Og (1/2)gie land where you"/ "can't tell salt from"/ "tis sue pa per"/ "tis sue pa per"/ "mar ma lade and" / "jam" (4) Does that help? Kitty |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fish & Tin & Copper From: MMario Date: 18 Apr 02 - 10:40 PM I'll see what I can do with that if no one else gets to it. Can anyone do for duration what Herga did for the pitches? |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fish & Tin & Copper From: Herga Kitty Date: 18 Apr 02 - 05:52 PM This dredges up memories of Late Night Extras at Sidmouth... Half(B) a (B)pound (A) of (G) flour (B) and(D) marge(D) makes (B) a(B)love(B)ly(A)clag (A)ger(G) x2 Oh (g)how (g)hap(g)py (d) we (e)shall (e) be(d) x3 Gor (B) bug(B)ger(A) jag(A) ger(G) And (d)we'll(d) all(e)go(g)back (f#) to(e) Og (e)gie(d)land (d), to (e) Og(d)gie(c)land(c)to(e)Og (e)gie (d)land (d) And (d) we'll (d)all(e) go(g) back (f#) to (e) Og(e)gie(D)land (D) Where (B) they (C) can't (D)tell (C) salt ((B) from (A) tis (G)sue(B)pa(B)per, tis (G) sue (B)pa (B)per(D)mar (D) ma(C)lade (B) and (A) jam (G) |
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Subject: Lyr Add: WHERE BE GOIN TO JAGGER From: greg stephens Date: 18 Apr 02 - 01:34 PM Sorry, a bit late, here is the rest of the song.
Verse 2: Half a pound of flour and marge (Chorus) Oh, how happy us'll be etc.
Verse 3: You make fast and I'll make fast
(Chorus, different tune this time) And we'll all go back to oggie land
Don't know where you'll find thetune. If you fail, and would like to hear it, let me know and I'll do you a personal recording Clarili. It's not very "Celtic" (as in soulful Enya warbling though). The characteristic imaginative mangling of the English language is perfectly Cornish though. It's quite possible it was written by a Devon man as a piss-take of the Cornish, but it's lasted well both sides of the Tamar. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fish & Tin & Copper From: ciarili Date: 15 Apr 02 - 06:57 PM Greg, I want all the verses! That's hilarious! And I LOVE pasties. I even make 'em occasionally. If I'm ever over there, I'm lookin' you up for tips on where to eat.... ciarili |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fish & Tin & Copper From: greg stephens Date: 15 Apr 02 - 06:52 PM Polbae,polbeth and Poldean,all where you'ld expect for British/Celtic names,, south of the Glasgow/Edinburgh line.penrith and penruddock inCumbria. I dont know any Tre- names in the north though..anybody help? |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fish & Tin & Copper From: Snuffy Date: 15 Apr 02 - 06:47 PM Polmadie (Glasgow) and Polmont both had engine sheds in the days of steam. WassaiL! V |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fish & Tin & Copper From: weepiper Date: 15 Apr 02 - 02:23 PM Hrothgar is right about "fitz", it is a corruption of the northern French pronunciation of "fils", 'son'. And yes, it was generally used for acknowledged bastard sons of royalty. You get Tre- Pol- and Pen- names in Scotland too; we spoke a p-celtic language south of the highland line at least for a long time... off the top of my head near me there are Traprain (tref y pren, farmstead of the tree) and Penicuik (pen y gog, cuckoo's end). I can't think of a definite Pol- one offhand... Polwarth maybe but I'm not sure about that. |
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Subject: Lyr Add: WHERE BE GOIN TO JAGGER From: greg stephens Date: 15 Apr 02 - 02:17 PM Do that. You'll have a brilliant walk (though a long one). Do it from Scotland to Cornwall and you'll get warmer as you go along (though your face will get sunburnt). Go through Cumberland, Lancashire and Cheshire and then down the Welsh borders, And you can have Celts on your right and English on your left all the way. And a song or a tune every step. But alas when you get there you won't find any Cornish speakers (except those who've learnt in night school) the native speakers are long gone. But you'll find brilliant songs, brilliant people. And pasties (oggies)!!!!!! And here is your marching song to lighten your step along the way:
Where be goin to jagger
Oh how happy us'll be
(more verses available on request). Cheers, greg |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fish & Tin & Copper From: ciarili Date: 15 Apr 02 - 01:50 PM Yeah, I'll ask him about that one - he could be wrong. I'd sure love to go to Cornwall someday, see the Riviera and the caves and St. Michael's Mount. I'd love to walk from there clear up to Scotland. I told my voice teacher that if I were ever rich, I'd buy him a cottage there, long as I could come to visit! ciarili |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fish & Tin & Copper From: greg stephens Date: 15 Apr 02 - 07:33 AM The likelihood of the w word for prostitute coming from Cornish seems an unbelievably unlikely theory. Us Cornish get around ("Find a hole in the ground anywahere in the world and there's a Cornishman at the bottom of it") but we'd have needed good communications to get it into English whore;Dutch hoer.German hure.Old Norse horr.Gothic hors.Not to mention related words with the same root:Latin cara, Irish cara,French chere.Plus Breton and Welsh already mentioned etc etc, the list is endless. You needto look east to some proto Indo-european language. we invented oggies and tin mining, butnot whores. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fish & Tin & Copper From: Hrothgar Date: 15 Apr 02 - 05:21 AM 1. "By War-, Tre-, Pol-, and Pen-"? cf Warburton, Warby, etc. 2. The "Fitz" in Norman names means "son of," I think, and I have a suspicion it relates to illegitimate sons. Any ideas? |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fish & Tin & Copper From: ciarili Date: 14 Apr 02 - 03:56 PM I dunno. He grew up with a lot of Cornish in his vocabulary. When he was little, he used to be confused about the fact that other kids didn't understand what he was saying when he talked. He had to learn to only use the English! |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fish & Tin & Copper From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 14 Apr 02 - 11:59 AM Your teacher is probably wrong about that; the most likely derivation is from Old Norse hora (adulteress), not from any Cornish word. Incidentally, the only Cornish dictionary I've had a chance to consult doesn't list any word at all for sister; presumably it's close to Breton c'hoar and Welsh chwaer? |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fish & Tin & Copper From: ciarili Date: 14 Apr 02 - 03:15 AM Forgot to mention - I no longer use the "w" word for prostitute, ever since my voice teacher told me where it came from! |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fish & Tin & Copper From: ciarili Date: 14 Apr 02 - 03:07 AM Nope. Never knew any Mac Stiofans personally. Sounds ominous though, I'll check into that one. What you said about American assumptions kind of amuses me - I find that some people regard us as the red-headed, lefthanded stepchildren of Europe, but we really aren't. You have to be here a while to really get the picture. We may be ignorant about some things on the whole, but we have other strengths. In any case, I know Stephens isn't a name that originated in Ireland. I was just pointing out that it's very widespread. I've actually got a good, thick book on Scottish surnames which is very reliable, while my other information comes from my Gaelic friends and their personal histories, my grandmother, her library, and the library at Indiana University. My mother knows history too - she's got a degree in poly-sci. And we all read incessantly. You gotta love names! They represent so much, not only to ourselves, but to others. Besides, if you tie in to families with long records, you can find out what your folks did waaay back when. My friend Joan Martin happened to stay at a house in Ireland that she later discovered was part of her ancestral holdings. She was reading about the Martins in Ireland (old Norman family) and saw a picture of it! Almost as good as a ghost story.... You know, I'm very American in certain respects, like being terribly attached to the Bill of Rights (which keeps us from getting as screwed over quite as thoroughly as the citizens of some other countries, though we're getting there) but I'm very Gaelic in my ways. My husband wants to vacation in Nova Scotia before moving there, but I'd have gone a long time ago myself. He's fine with living there for a while anyway, and that'd give me a chance to get my Gàidhlig in good working order. Slàn an dràsda, ciarili o'brien (married an Irish man!) |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fish & Tin & Copper From: greg stephens Date: 13 Apr 02 - 06:08 PM Clarili..sorry if I sounded stroppy .from this side of the pond, the American tendency to throw a lassoo round a lot of wildly different places and label them "Celtic" can feel a littlefunny. And statements like "Irish names Stephens are derived from Mac Giolla Stiofan" need careful consideration before you make them: I mean, unless you actually know that a person had an ncestor of that name, don't say it, because thesethings have, sometimes and unfortunately, wider implications you may not have thought of.It's a very politicised world we live in. Ever heard of Sean macStiofan, for example, and the history of his name? |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fish & Tin & Copper From: breezy Date: 13 Apr 02 - 02:23 PM Mr . Penna the organist at St Petroc's ,I think, the parish church in Padstow taught his pupils a host of cornish songs when he was at \padstow primary.My daughter taught me one an Tre, Pol and Pen was not it although she did learn it as an 10 year old. Good hunting |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fish & Tin & Copper From: Bat Goddess Date: 13 Apr 02 - 01:35 PM Hi, ciarili -- For some reason I can't seem to PM you -- your name draws a blank when I enter it. Anywho, I'm not a caver (not many caves in my neck of the woods -- New Hampshire) nor a Goth, but I DO have a nursery colony of Little Brown Bats in my ceiling, so I've gotten quite knowledgeable about them and other bats. (And rather fond of them, I must say, although I'd like to suggest they move out to the bat house rather than the ceiling above the guest room. My other houseguests sometimes complain about bats being houseguests.) Please PM me or email me and we can continue the bat conversation without having to quote songs about bats. ;-) Linn |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fish & Tin & Copper From: ciarili Date: 13 Apr 02 - 01:17 PM Wow, didn't mean to offend! And no, I've never taken a Celtic Studies course anywhere at any time. My voice teacher is Cornish, and it's from him that I've learnt most of what I know about Cornwall. Of course through intermarriage names get spread around, and Wales and Cornwall are fairly close geographically. You will find that there are names that sound Brythonic in the Lowlands of Scotland as well, where my mother also has ancestors. Stephens could have come from Wales in the Middle Ages and then been thoroughly "Cornishised," or has Cornwall always had -s names? Did you know that any Irish name with Fitz in it is Norman? So is Fraser in Scotland. My grandmother,though a Scot, bore the maiden name Alverson, a Viking name. The British Isles are a very mixed bag. Some of my ancestors are Witherspoons, and that sure doesn't sound Gàidhlig to me, that sounds Welsh. My gran is a geneologist, by the way, which is another reason that I know a little bit about names. Our lines go back many centuries. My grandfather was a NATO guy and they lived in Belgium, from where they travelled Western Europe tracing our bloodlines. Anyway, sorry you feel my statements are spurious. Here's a tidbit from an Irish site, too. They had a lot of contact with Wales at times. The names Stevens and Stephens in Ireland are derived from the native Gaelic Mac Giolla Stiofain Sept. It was also brought to the country by settlers especially during the sixteenth century. Other descendants may deirve from the Norman Fitzstephen families. This name is now mostly found in Counties Dublin and Mayo. There you have it. A popular name by any means, and found far and wide. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fish & Tin & Copper From: greg stephens Date: 13 Apr 02 - 07:02 AM PS Pol means pool ( Cornish Poldu =blackpool, as breton Le Pouldhu). Generally spelt Pwll in Welsh placenames. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fish & Tin & Copper From: greg stephens Date: 13 Apr 02 - 06:49 AM Clarili, that's a magnificently knowledgable statemnt that Stephens is originally Welsh.Where could you possibly have acquired that information? Do you mean Welsh as in the country, Welsh as a language: are you using the term Welsh to include Cornish, because the languages are closely related? Not been on one of these "Celtic Studies" courses have you? I can trace the male-line back 7 generations in Cornwall; before that who knows? I dont and I'm damn sure you don't. Maybe Wales? well of course, but maybe not. For the benefit of any non-Brit geography experts, let's explain that if you look at a map of England you'll see three big lumps on the left hand side, which are called Cornwall, Wales and Cumberland(Cumbria), running from south to north. These are commonly referred to as being more Celtic than the land to the east, because of linguistic and place name history. Owens and Jones are very common surnames in Wales (they both mean "son of John" basically). A lot of Cornish surnames start with the British(Celtic) elements Tre Pol and Pen.(though these elements are common in Welsh placenames, they dont occur in surnames so much). |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fish & Tin & Copper From: Kernow John Date: 13 Apr 02 - 04:03 AM As Snuffy says the line is Tre Pol and Pen The full chorus being For 'tis fish and tin and copper, boys, Tre Pol and Pen And One and All, we may rejoice That we are Cornishmen. I've lent someone the book that I think it's in. "Songs the Cornish Love to sing" by Mike O'Connor. A link to his place can be found here. http://www.angelfire.com/mo/kernowfolk/latestlinks.html. KJ |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fish & Tin & Copper From: ciarili Date: 12 Apr 02 - 07:34 PM Yeah, but all the personal names ending with s are known in Cornwall from what I've been led to believe. They are originally Welsh, as is Stephens. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fish & Tin & Copper From: Snuffy Date: 12 Apr 02 - 07:10 PM Sorry, Mario, I've never heard it sung. But looking at the words you could sing it to the tune of The Lincolnshire Poacher or just about to Landlord fill the Flowing Bowl or The Song of the Western Men" (And shall Trelawney live, and shall Trelawney die....) and probably many other tunes. Verse and chorus are both 8.6.8.6, so any C.M. (Common Measure) or D.C.M (Double common Measure) hymn tune would also fit (my hymnal lists over 120 - Now Thank We All Our God, O Little Town of Bethlehem, etc, etc). WassaiL! V |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fish & Tin & Copper From: greg stephens Date: 12 Apr 02 - 06:53 PM Don't Owens and Jones tend to be Welsh names,or am I missing a point here? |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fish & Tin & Copper From: ciarili Date: 12 Apr 02 - 06:50 PM Yeah! My mother is an Owens by birth. About a zillion of them and then there's Jones.... |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fish & Tin & Copper From: greg stephens Date: 12 Apr 02 - 06:33 PM Snuffy's quote "By Tre Pol and Pen" is an old proverbial expression. (Though your name doesn't have to start with that, there's a hell of a lotof us Stephens in Cornwall too). |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fish & Tin & Copper From: ciarili Date: 12 Apr 02 - 06:28 PM I think snuffy's right about Tre- and Pol- and Pen-. Tré means village, pen means end, like a peninsula, and pol, well, I've no idea about pol. They are all place name parts, though. That's what I'm going with, unless my Cornish voice teacher tells me differently when I see him next. ciarili btw, I'm a caver with batstickers on my car and a subscription to Bat Conservation Int'l, so your handle has me curious. You a caver too, or just pale and tragic? |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fish & Tin & Copper From: MMario Date: 12 Apr 02 - 09:55 AM Thanks snuffy! You wouldn't happen to have the dots would you? |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fish & Tin & Copper From: Ringer Date: 12 Apr 02 - 09:46 AM I've never heard of the song, but I came across "Fish, Tin & Copper" used as a toast in the book "Deep Down" by RM Ballantyne 40 yars ago. And, oddly enough, it's the only thing I can remember about the book - no memory of story-line or anything else. Fish, tin & copper were the staples of the Cornish economy (was there no agriculture in Cornwall?). RM Ballantyne is better known for his book, "Coral Island" which is itself better known as the book that William Golding wrote "Lord of the Flies" against (does that make sense?). Coral Island: Boy heroes Ralph, Jack and Peterkin get marooned on a desert island and, keeping their upper lips stiff, maintain the British Way of Life until rescued. Lord of the Flies: Boy (anti-)heroes Ralph, Jack & Piggy get marooned on a desert island and revert to savagery before being rescued. I know which I think is a truer description of human nature. Sorry: thread's crept. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fish & Tin & Copper From: Snuffy Date: 12 Apr 02 - 09:38 AM "By Tre- Pol- and Pen- Shall ye know Cornishmen". Many personal and place names in Cornwall begin with one of these (Trelawney, Polperro, Penzance, etc). WassaiL! V |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fish & Tin & Copper From: MMario Date: 12 Apr 02 - 09:32 AM the second line of the chorus seems to be (to my ears) "And tree and pole and pen" which admittedly doesn't make much sense...
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fish & Tin & Copper From: Bat Goddess Date: 12 Apr 02 - 09:28 AM That was fast! I still need the second line of the chorus, but everything else seems to be as my recordings. I had found that RealAudio file as well about a month ago, but I lost the source when my hard drive melted down a couple weeks ago. Thanks! Linn |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fish & Tin & Copper From: MMario Date: 12 Apr 02 - 09:24 AM realaudio file
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Subject: Lyr Add: FISH AND TIN AND COPPER From: MMario Date: 12 Apr 02 - 09:21 AM Here's what I found - accredited as "old traditional"
FISH AND TIN AND COPPER |
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Subject: Fish & Tin & Copper From: Bat Goddess Date: 12 Apr 02 - 09:04 AM Well, I've searched DigiTrad and checked out various Cornish threads in the Forum and spent a couple morning searching Cornish and song lyric websites and I can't seem to find the words to "Fish and Tin and Copper." I have a tape by Sue White and Gareth Hedges, but my ear doesn't seem to be working that well on transcribing it. Anybody got the lyrics somewhere? And more info on the song? Is it trad? And if it isn't, who wrote it? Thanks! Linn |
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