honkingduck silenced

Subject: honkingduck silenced
From: Nathan in Texas
Date: 14 Apr 02 - 09:48 AM

Was distressed to discover that www.honkingduck.com which had hundreds of recordings of oldtime 78s is no long listenable. Note from site owner, JGReidy, says:

"You may be wondering why you can't listen to these recordings anymore. When I first built this site I believed that these recordings were in the public domain. Now I've learned that although federal copyright law does NOT cover "Sound recordings fixed before February 15, 1972" (according to the U.S. Copyright Office in Copyright Information Circular Number 56), there could be State copyright laws covering some of these 78s. How do you find out where and when 700+ recordings were made? Is it the location of the recording session, or of the manufacturer that matters? How do you find out what State copyright laws were in effect in a given year? These questions are not impossible to answer, but who's got the time?"

If anyone has info that can indicating that it's okay to make these songs available, please send it to him and encourage him to bring the songs back. They were a great resource!

Subject: RE: honkingduck silenced
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Apr 02 - 10:14 AM

What a complete bummer! I check in there usually about once a week and that site has been a source of great enjoyment for an awful lot of us. I really wonder who it was that told him it was illegal.

Ya' know...........I know artists and whomever are entitled to their royalties, but I'd bet that the big companies made far more than any of the people who recorded the 78's at Honking Duck........And at this point there are so few that want to listen that virtually no one makes any effort to reissue the stuff. The few who do lose money because of the small audience/market. So who the hell is getting hurt here....and who's still trying to score a buck?

Sad.

Spaw

Subject: RE: honkingduck silenced
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Apr 02 - 10:26 AM

There is a gospel site just as stuffed with gems in black, southern, and mountain gospel, and I am saving madly so that if it goes away I'll still have all the resources, because I depend on this kind of material for our church service, and it's not available otherwise.

I have been wondering if our Mudcat fellowship can organize conservation parties, groups making sure the content of particular sites are preserved... stewards of the bounty who can at least send out RA or MP3 files via e-mail when asked.... I'm saving a text copy of each page so I have a reference for the label, recording date, etc. But I think there is so much there that I should have recruited a partner to split the job, and I bet we could easily have organized a saving party here for Honkingduck.

The thing is, if you autosave a batch at a site, you are stuck with the filenaming conventions each and every site dreamed up, and it gets hard to find things on your system later. After trying a few other approaches, my filenames now are the songtitle and either artist and source site, or, if available, label name and the label's number for the item. (Makes for funny filenames: "Jesus Recorded At Hollywood" ... Who knew??? *G*) That means hand-saving each song, but it pays off later when I want to see multiple versions of one title, and I can resort by title.

Anyway I am throwing the suggestion out there-- can we work together to conserve stuff? How would YOU go about it?

And is there a volunteer to help me on the southern gospel while I finish the black gospel? It's the OLD stuff, the early quartets.

~Susan

Subject: RE: honkingduck silenced
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Apr 02 - 10:12 PM

I didn't realize Honking Duck was in danger, or I'd have used my "saver" trick ...I did get most of "Rose, the Record Lady" when it was first thought she was going under...(and she still may, as she is needing contributions)... I can 'try' to get some things and put them on CDs, but I am not reading and following quite as much as I used to, so we'll just have to work on a plan....

Subject: RE: honkingduck silenced
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Apr 02 - 10:34 PM

See parallel thread 46500: copyright law
OK, an individual(s) "preserves" the material. Dissemination to others must remain very limited and undercover or the same problem will be faced. The first step is to find out the content and extent of the state laws.

Subject: RE: honkingduck silenced
From: Jeep man
Date: 14 Apr 02 - 10:44 PM

Susan, will you give us the name of the gospel site? Luv. Jeep

Subject: RE: honkingduck silenced
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Apr 02 - 11:16 PM

Jeep, the one I am in now is Dovesong, which Masato found, bless him!!!!

All the gospel sites I have been plumbing of late are listed and linked in the Max Hunter thread.... I am just finishing copying over a gig of Winamp black gospel files to 2 CDs for backup or I'd go find the URL and build a clicky.

Bill, it is my understanding someone did save a copy of Honkingduck. Can you mass-grab the southern gospel for me at Dovesong? It's the OLD stuff, so cool....

~Susan

Subject: RE: honkingduck silenced
From: Les B
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 01:11 AM

Ahh fooey! Just when you find a decent site, it goes south. Seems to me Mudcat went through that once as well.

Honkingduck, to me, seemed to prove that cyberspace was still a vast untamed frontier, but the law, maw and apple pie are coming over the horizon!!

Subject: RE: honkingduck silenced
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 05:16 AM

My immediate lay-person's response was that the concept of "State Copyright" is pretty preposterous, given the Federal law(s) on the subject.

Of course, attempting to search for a specific "legal concept" is pretty much useless. Lawyers get the big bucks by doing (sending their legal aides to do) the searches, and then can only quote odds on whether you might get caught at something that was missed.

I did find one thread, at gigalaw that presents a way that state laws might actually be a problem. The site offers/assumes the opinion that Federal copyright law preempts state law for the determination of "who owns" something; but that state law covering contracts and agreements (if I correctly interprete their legalspeak) could control the "use" of a copyrighted property within a given state - in ways not regulated by the Federal law.

I guess I'd have to concede that, given how the law seems to work, it is possible that there is a real "threat" here. Hopefully, someone will come forward with something more reassuring.

Given that the historians say that 99.44% of Supreme Court decisions over the first 200 years dealt (almost) exclusively with "property issues," one must wonder why "intellectual property" is such a problem. (Anyone want to insert the "obvious" guess?)

John

Subject: RE: honkingduck silenced
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 07:13 AM

Remember the USA is just one smnall patch of the planet. At this stage there must still be some places on the planet outside the grasp of the US copyright authoirities, and which aren't in themselves repressive in what they allow people to put up on servers which can be accessed from everywhere else.

Has anyone got some information on that? (So far as Honking Duck is concerned, I gather at least one Mudcatter has downloaded everything on it - but isn't in a position to be able to put it up on the net.)

Subject: RE: honkingduck silenced
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 11:33 AM

"mass-grab the southern gospel for me at Dovesong? It's the OLD stuff, so cool....".....working on it..will see how it goes..

Subject: RE: honkingduck silenced
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 12:18 PM

Is it appropriate to bless an atheist? *G*

I have everything else from Dovesong.

~Susan

Subject: RE: honkingduck silenced
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 16 Apr 02 - 08:46 AM

I managed to download a lot of Honking Duck content for my own personal interest. I am not yet certain how much I have actually got, as the old site layout had many tracks catalogued under each and every name on the label of a record e.g. Uncle Dave Macon and his Fruit Jar Drinkers with Sam McGee might have appeared under U for uncle; D for Dave; M for Macon and also McGee etc. etc..... The same file downloaded each time.
I was in the process of converting the file codes to actual song names and renaming the files I had downloaded when I discovered that the site had been sabotaged. Because of the complications above, I don't yet know what, if anything, I have missed.
The newer layout of the site, with a better search facility for songs, displayed details about the recordings more understandably than the earlier Flat File layout, but is more cumbersome to navigate, so instead of just loading a page for the letter A, you have to load each song separately before you can read the recording details.
If I can save anything worth saving, I will do so, but that doesn't solve the problem that an incredibly useful source for musical research has been crippled by petty bureaucracy, presumable by people who actually couldn't care less about any of it.
Do any of you know - is this patricular Copyright Law one specific only to a particular US State, or is it something which would prevent somebody in the England or other non-USA parts of the world from opening a Mirror Site with the same basic content?
Geoff the Duck
Still Quacking, but not Honking.

Subject: RE: honkingduck silenced
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Apr 02 - 03:05 PM

As I figured--there is no complaint of any sort--Dicho, you are way over your head in trying to interpret US copyright laws---I am not going to give legal advice because I am not a lawyer, but I suggest that until someone requests that you cease and desist who can show that they control the rights to the music that you are using, and until they can quote you the laws and provide you with a legal argument as to why you should follow their request, it isn't necessary to pull anything off the web--

Mr Reidy is not aware of any laws that he is in violation of, but he is afraid that there might be some that he doesn not know about--that is silly, to my way of seeing things--even still, all it would take is a phone call to one of the big copyright attorneys in order to set his mind at ease--I would bet that, since there is no complaint pending, the attorney wouldn't even charge him a fee, but if he won't make the call, that is his own business--

Subject: RE: honkingduck silenced
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Apr 02 - 03:19 PM

All I have done is quote the California Code that seems to be applicable. I stated that the first step is to find out the "content and extent of the state laws." I have given my personal opinion of the CA Code in that thread, which I am free to do.

Subject: RE: honkingduck silenced
From: Louie Roy
Date: 17 Apr 02 - 10:10 AM

Thanks Dicho,for all the info you provided on copyright law and I also want to thanks all the others who have contributed valuable info on this subject.My opinion State copyright is a bunch of B.S.and they are using scare tactics to keep someone from excercising their God given rights.Louie Roy

Subject: RE: honkingduck silenced
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Apr 02 - 10:23 AM

"I would bet that, since there is no complaint pending, the attorney wouldn't even charge him a fee." (M.Ted)

That might be a bet worth taking up...

Subject: RE: honkingduck silenced
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Apr 02 - 11:56 AM

"Is it appropriate to bless an atheist? *G*"

appropriate?..who knows?...maybe 'useful' is the question..*G* anyway, I'll take that as a compliment and hope it gains me credits if I ever need them..

(If I ever DO wake up and discover I'm being called to final judgement, I'm gonna have some comments about the system before I head down with the lawyers and banjo players...Pascal's Wager is not for me...)

Subject: RE: honkingduck silenced
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Apr 02 - 12:09 PM

Bill? If or when you wake up there, if I am not there to greet you personally, tell them to set you down near the door so you can watch for me. If they try to bounce you, tell them you are my guest and must wait for me! *G*

~Susan

Subject: RE: honkingduck silenced
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Apr 02 - 12:56 PM

"Here is your harp, welcome to heaven -
Here's your accordion - welcome to hell" as John Kirkpatrick sings.

Subject: RE: honkingduck silenced
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Apr 02 - 04:04 PM

didn't know residents could invite guests!..Well, I'll just mention your name, Susan.("aww..St Peter, you know Susan...the one with the portable MP3 player and 6 bags of disks!)

Subject: RE: honkingduck silenced
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Apr 02 - 04:16 PM

McGrath, what do they do with the guy with the bodhran?
Louie Roy, it bothers me too, that recordings from the 1920s-1930s can't join in that Great Public Domain because of this situation. Of course, the threats and claims may not be sustained in the US Supreme Court, but that could be years and dollars away.
In another thread, the sad case of "Waltzing Matilda" was discussed. The Australians at the Salt Lake Olympics paid royalties so that they could play the song (copyright holds, at least in the USA, for the version they sing) although the original was written about 1895.

Subject: RE: honkingduck silenced
From: Sorcha
Date: 17 Apr 02 - 04:25 PM

So much stupidity and greed, so little common sense.

Subject: RE: honkingduck silenced
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Apr 02 - 05:04 PM

If you play the bodhran they put you on the staff in Purgatory... (Leaving aside my mate Colin, who's about teh only one I know who ever gets asked to play a bit louder.)

Now that doesn't sound very Australian to me. What gets into people that turns them into the kind of wimps who consent to go along with that kind of crap?

Subject: RE: honkingduck silenced
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Apr 02 - 06:11 PM

McGrath, since the recordings and/or musicians were American, not much the Australians could do.

Subject: RE: honkingduck silenced
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Apr 02 - 06:13 PM

Bring their own band and show em how it should be played?

Subject: RE: honkingduck silenced
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Apr 02 - 06:15 PM

Bill, let's cowrite a gospel/nongospel song, called Guest, Just Mention My Name.

~S~

Subject: RE: honkingduck silenced
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Apr 02 - 07:30 PM

*big grin*...might sell!...it we do right, we can peddle it to both sides!

Subject: RE: honkingduck silenced
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Apr 02 - 08:11 PM

You and me, Bill. If we can make it work, anyone can! Rank opportunism, always the best glue for common effort!

I'll make you a Safe Passage Through Christendom certificate....

~Susan