Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesj

Post to this Thread - Sort Descending - Printer Friendly - Home


BS: 'Planxty' - Meaning / Origins ?

Paddy Plastique 16 Apr 02 - 05:12 AM
Malcolm Douglas 16 Apr 02 - 05:37 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 16 Apr 02 - 06:29 AM
Paddy Plastique 16 Apr 02 - 08:15 AM
greg stephens 16 Apr 02 - 08:41 AM
InOBU 16 Apr 02 - 04:43 PM
GUEST 16 Apr 02 - 06:00 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 16 Apr 02 - 06:13 PM
michaelr 16 Apr 02 - 07:27 PM
Big Mick 16 Apr 02 - 11:04 PM
Amos 17 Apr 02 - 12:08 AM
Guessed 17 Apr 02 - 10:27 AM
greg stephens 17 Apr 02 - 10:59 AM
Big Mick 17 Apr 02 - 11:05 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 17 Apr 02 - 11:55 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 17 Apr 02 - 12:15 PM
greg stephens 17 Apr 02 - 12:18 PM
GUEST 17 Apr 02 - 06:35 PM
michaelr 17 Apr 02 - 10:31 PM
Big Mick 17 Apr 02 - 10:57 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 17 Apr 02 - 11:13 PM
Mark Cohen 18 Apr 02 - 03:33 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 18 Apr 02 - 05:38 AM
GUEST, greg stephens 18 Apr 02 - 07:27 AM
Nigel Parsons 18 Apr 02 - 08:04 AM

Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:





Subject: 'Planxty' - Meaning / Origins ?
From: Paddy Plastique
Date: 16 Apr 02 - 05:12 AM

I've a vague notion that it means a piece composed for a patron - posthumously or not, I'm not sure..
Does anyone have a more precise definition?? Is it an Irish word, and if so, where did they get
the 'x' from ??


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'Planxty' - Meaning / Origins ?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 16 Apr 02 - 05:37 AM

What's a Planxty?

Planxty?

Uh-h-h Planxty?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'Planxty' - Meaning / Origins ?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 16 Apr 02 - 06:29 AM

The term "planxty" these days tends to mean a harp piece which was composed in honour of a patron or as repayment for hospitality, and people often use it as a common noun for any Carolan tune; but this usage is modern. Donal O'Sullivan, the author of the standard biography on him (which is now available again, and for which I've written an appendix concerning new material that's come to light) tells us that this word seems to have originated with Carolan, as it doesn't appear to have been known previously (he lived 1670-1738). Also, it refers exclusively to his works (apart from one exception which may be the result of doubtful editing). In the sources published closest to Carolan's lifetime, "planxty" only occurs four times, and O'Sullivan suggests that it was simply appended to a name when the publishers had no other information about the subject, even gender. Carolan himself used the word only once, and not as a title. It appears within the text of his verse and seems to be connected with merriment and celebration; it might even be an attempt to phonetically reproduce the sound of plucked strings.

In fact it is probably not a native Irish word: it was originally rendered in English (though Carolan spoke and composed his verses in Gaelic), and O'Sullivan doubts that the Irish translation of this word which appears in the published sources (spelled "plancsta") is genuine. He also disputes the authenticity of the term "plearaca" as quoted by Petrie, as well as some of Petrie's other conclusions, but his reasons are too long to go into here.

That's probably more info about this word than you will ever want! I'm not making any money from the sales of this book, so this plug is NOT profit-driven, but: If anyone does want O'Sullivan's book, further info can be had from Ossian Publications in Cork, Ireland on ossian@iol.ie


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'Planxty' - Meaning / Origins ?
From: Paddy Plastique
Date: 16 Apr 02 - 08:15 AM

Thanks Malcolm, and Bonnie. Seems this ground's been gone over before...
Took a look at those threads and now I'm seeing as clearly as O'Carolan himself into this great
mystery. Beginning to think it was his own wee practical joke against his future editors..


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'Planxty' - Meaning / Origins ?
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Apr 02 - 08:41 AM

Spelt Blangtys in one early English source, not that sheds any light on the meaning as far as I can sea.. I think this is one of the many questions to which we will never know the answer (like most Mudcat questions!)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'Planxty' - Meaning / Origins ?
From: InOBU
Date: 16 Apr 02 - 04:43 PM

Sean O'Riada once said something about it being a corruption of Slante, as O'Caroline said something like Plaxty gra so and so, if that is indeed the case, it seems to me it may be more likely a phonetic copy of O'Caroline saying Thanks to thee... hows that sound to folks? Cheers Larry


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'Planxty' - Meaning / Origins ?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Apr 02 - 06:00 PM

The earliest publication to use the word, c 1724-5, gave 'Plangsty' once and 'Planksty' once, but no 'Planxty'.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'Planxty' - Meaning / Origins ?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Apr 02 - 06:13 PM

See no reason not to take the OED definition: "A harp tune of a sportive nd animated character, moving in triplets. It is not intended for or often adaptable to words and is slower in pace than the jig." (Stainer and Barrett). Derivation unknown, app. not native Irish (Petrie, Ancient Music of Ireland, 1855). In print in 1790. Some derive from the Latin plangere, to strike or to beat.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'Planxty' - Meaning / Origins ?
From: michaelr
Date: 16 Apr 02 - 07:27 PM

Anyone to whom Carolan is "O'Caroline" should refrain from making pronouncements on the origins of anything Irish.

;-) Michael


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'Planxty' - Meaning / Origins ?
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 Apr 02 - 11:04 PM

Michaelr, it is gratifying to know that we have someone as knowledgeable as you are to keep the rest of us poor idiots in line. Or maybe not. One of the hallmarks of wisdom is not being judgemental in the way you just were. The gentleman you took a shot at can probably play more of O'Carolan's music from memory, on the Uillean Pipes no less, than you will be able to with a lifetime of study and the scores in front of you. Larry "Lorcan" Otway, otherwise known as InOBU in these precincts, is an Attorney, a human rights activist, and a great musician. If you had any history here, you would know that he is also dyslexic. You can be forgiven for not having that knowledge, as Larry doesn't mention it often. But jumping out with petty little criticism's designed to put yourself in a superior position just demonstrates something about you that isn't admirable.

Larry, thanks for all the knowledge, wisdom, and passion you share with us on a regular basis.

Mick


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'Planxty' - Meaning / Origins ?
From: Amos
Date: 17 Apr 02 - 12:08 AM

A Planxty Zinger, Mick!! Wheeeeooooo!

A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'Planxty' - Meaning / Origins ?
From: Guessed
Date: 17 Apr 02 - 10:27 AM

thick as 2 short planxties?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'Planxty' - Meaning / Origins ?
From: greg stephens
Date: 17 Apr 02 - 10:59 AM

A striking feature of some Mudcatters is their readiness to criticise the spelling mistakes of people they don't know, the height of bad manners I would think.I have my suspicions that there are not a few school-teachers lurking in our ranks. (Michaelr if you are a buddy of InObu and you always take the piss out of each other, I withdraw my criticism). Back to Planxty: people mostly seem to ignore the obvious onomatopeic(oportunity for yu, michaelr)nature of the word. You try to imitate a harp, and I would be surprised if you didnt come up with a plink, plank or plunk (or pluck or plangere or plearaca).And then of course there were the English masons building St pauls after the GreatFire of London, when tea first started becoming popular in England. For their tea breaks they used temporary tables made by laying two or three planks across two blocksof stone, and habitually sung cheerful songs during these welcome periods of relaxation. Their preferred very strong brew with plenty of sugar became commonly known as "plank tea" or "planks tea", and so by extensionthe term became used to describe their tea-breaks, and the songs they sang during them.As commonly happened, a perfectly normal English term was absorbed into Irish and given a dubious Gaelic etymology by later Nationalist scholars.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'Planxty' - Meaning / Origins ?
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Apr 02 - 11:05 AM

I don't know if the "planks tea" is factual or not, but I enjoyed the hell out of the tellin'.................LOL.

But I got to take a little of the bait, Greg. How many perfectly good Latin terms did Empire loving English Scholars incorporate into the English etymology?

All the best,

Mick


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'Planxty' - Meaning / Origins ?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 17 Apr 02 - 11:55 AM

The actual verse is:

"Him, jam! planxty, merriment,
Sing, dance, drink his health about!"

O'Sullivan comments, "The word 'planxty' only occurs once in Carolan's verse, namely in the last half of the second chorus of his song for George Brabazon [first air]… As these lines are in English, it seems likely that Carolan intended it as an English word, not an Irish one, though it is spelt 'plancsta' in the published versions. It has not got a Gaelic ring about it."

Elsewhere he says, "Petrie is wrong in supposing 'plearaca' [sorry, my computer won't do the fada in plain text – bs] it a true synonym for 'planxty'. Its use is not uncommon in Connacht poetry, signifying reckless merriment or an uproarious piece of verse… Carolan uses it three times in his verse, but always in this sense and never in the sense of a piece of music…" (O'Sullivan contradicts Petrie on other points too, convincingly to my mind.)

Personally, I like Greg's theory. I note that the second word of the verse is "jam". What ELSE would you have with tea?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'Planxty' - Meaning / Origins ?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 17 Apr 02 - 12:15 PM

(Sorry for posting again but didn't think to mention this above):

Guest, the publication you refer to (Neale) has since proved to be later than the 1720s; watermarks in the paper have subsequently shown that it did not appear during Carolan's lifetime as was previously believed, but in 1742. O'Sullivan did not live to see this discovery and so reported the earlier date, but this is an error.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'Planxty' - Meaning / Origins ?
From: greg stephens
Date: 17 Apr 02 - 12:18 PM

Bonnie Shaljean, how dare you call that a "theory"..it's an established fact.As you point out, the evidence of the jam is the clincher. Big Mick, i don't knw why you expect me to answer for the English. I imagine they borrowed Latin words as all they managed to think up on their own were a few mono-syllabic grunts associated with body parts and concomitant activities.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'Planxty' - Meaning / Origins ?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Apr 02 - 06:35 PM

Bonnie, I know, but that's not the one I was refering to. I should have said the Neals' 'A Collection of Celebrated Irish Tunes', Dublin [1724 ?]. A different work: O'Sullivan misdated a fragmentary collection of Carolan's tunes as 1721 instead of c 1742 as Bonnie has noted. Sorry about 'plangsty', which I took from an index where it is spelled wrong. There are 2 'planksty' in the Neals' c 1724 book. Also in it is "Plea Rarkeh (na Rourkough)", the 'plearaca' that Bonnie noted in her first post.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'Planxty' - Meaning / Origins ?
From: michaelr
Date: 17 Apr 02 - 10:31 PM

Ooh, put me in my place, didn't you, Mick?
Another striking feature of some Mudcatters is their constant readiness to jump down someone's throat at the slightest perceived provocation. I don't know the first thing about InOBU except what I read here. If that typo was due to dyslexia, I apologize (you there, Larry?).
As for "petty little criticisms designed to put myself in a superior position", perhaps you missed the little ;-) winking face, which, I thought, denotes that the preceding comment is meant humorously, not maliciously. Or am I wrong about that, too?

Michael


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'Planxty' - Meaning / Origins ?
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Apr 02 - 10:57 PM

Yeah, pretty much, IMHO, Michael. We call that "kidding on the square" where I come from. But if you are sincere in your apology to Larry, that is good enough for me. Your comment, no matter the emoticon was pretty clear.

As to "some Mudcatters", I will assume you are speaking of me. One of my faults/strong points (depending on who you are) is that I try to speak plainly. Most folks here, yourself included, I wouldn't know on the street. So it is nothing personal, just my view of what your post appeared to be. Feel free to correct me. At any rate, if you hadn't brought it up again, it would be a dead issue already.

Now, back to the discussion of Planxty. I still love the "Planks Tea" story.

Mick


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'Planxty' - Meaning / Origins ?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Apr 02 - 11:13 PM

Messages should avoid the supposedly funny (or otherwise) little hentracks. If you can't summon the language to say what you mean, don't bother.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'Planxty' - Meaning / Origins ?
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 18 Apr 02 - 03:33 AM

Dicho, that would be reasonable if we could convey vocal tone and body language with our keyboards, because they are an integral part of communication. But we can't. And not everyone has sufficient verbal facility to convey nuances of meaning by means of precisely chosen words. Especially when there may be limited time available. So, given the imperfect nature of this medium, I'm afraid those ugly little "hentracks" will remain useful, as much as I dislike using them. I understood michaelr's "cyberwink" perfectly well, as it's a convention that has been well-established here and elsewhere online. For me, at least, it very effectively conveyed the message that his intent was to be jocular and teasing, rather than huffy and insulting. Unfortunately, not everybody notices or understands the code. But we all got over it. Well, almost all of us, anyway. (Nuance note: that last sentence was intended to convey a wryly humorous but nonetheless serious objection to the phrase "don't bother", which I personally felt to be unnecessarily unfriendly, even though I understand the sentiment. But others may have a different opinion.)

Aloha,
Mark


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'Planxty' - Meaning / Origins ?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 18 Apr 02 - 05:38 AM

Uhhh... if we're all done with "planxty" could we perhaps adjourn?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'Planxty' - Meaning / Origins ?
From: GUEST, greg stephens
Date: 18 Apr 02 - 07:27 AM

(sorry, cookie problems). Agreed, Bonnie. Michaelr's posting resulted in an informative friendly chat on a subject of mutual interest being totally derailed by someone choosing to sneer at a posting ....just because of a footling spelling mistake.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: 'Planxty' - Meaning / Origins ?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Apr 02 - 08:04 AM

Bonnie: putting a 'Fada' in plain text; just 'Inter fada' here! *GD&R*


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate


 


This Thread Is Closed.


Mudcat time: 16 December 7:54 AM EST

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.