Help: Different Chords playing same key

Subject: Different Chords playing same key
From: DonMeixner
Date: 19 Apr 02 - 07:18 PM

Actually I'm hoping to get back to music and away from the world of politics for awhile.

When arranging songs for a group with a couple of guitars and a banjo and a fiddle I try to have the two guitars play in the same key but one guitar capoed elswhere.

"G" in the usual place and a capo at 7 playing "C" shapes for intsance. It gives a nice dynamic and a fuller sounding chord when both are strummed together.

Do others do this with their arrangements? I assume so bu you never know. The reviled as much as loved Kingston Trio used to have the tenor guitar capoed way up to get different sounds in the instrument mix.

Has anyones group ever tried playing three instruments, one playing a "C" chord, one an "E" chord, and the other a "G" chord with the whole sound created being a massive "C" chord. Probably not.

Sorry for the ramble

Don

Subject: RE: Help: Different Chords playing same key
From: Amos
Date: 19 Apr 02 - 07:21 PM

I typically do a second, acompanying track when recording, using a capo and alternate chord structure as you describe it. It makes an entriely separate, complimentary voice, especially doing sliding thirds or fifth interval pairs, foor example. I also have a much smaller guitar which I sometimes use for a tenor voice.

Sometimes I have a bad time getting the two tracks in synch though -- my sense of rhythm is so idiosyncratic I sometimes lose the beat of the first track while trying to lay down the second one!!

A

Subject: RE: Help: Different Chords playing same key
From: Willie-O
Date: 19 Apr 02 - 08:02 PM

Good rule of thumb there Don. One thing I hate to see (and hear) is two (or three) acoustic guitars playing the exact same rhythm part, same chord inversions and everything. I mean, what's the point?

Capoes are a nuisance though. If you have a guitarist who knows a bit about mandolin, but don't happen to have a mandolin in the group, its easy to fake a mandolin chop, tremolo etc on the upper ranges of the guitar.

Willie-O

Subject: RE: Help: Different Chords playing same key
From: DonMeixner
Date: 19 Apr 02 - 08:08 PM

Amos,

After I cut my fingers I became a firm believer in the Less is More principle of many things. Especially guitar accompaniment. A good solid rhythym and a simple but tasteful melody line or counter rhythym is almost unbeatable. Like a single guitar playing rhythym to two voices singing in harmony. lately it seems that the further up the neck the better for me chord wise. The closer frets make it possible for me to play long span chords that are too dificult for me to play on an open guitar. Hence the questions for this thread. Idiosyncratic is my middle name, just as my Sweetie Pie.

Don

Subject: RE: Help: Different Chords playing same key
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Apr 02 - 08:26 PM

If I'm playing along with another guitar I will make a point of playing different inversions, normally by capoing up. as Willie-O says, what's the point of both playing the same thing. All right, maybe if you're playing different ways - but even so you're much more likely to get in each other's way if you're using the same shapes.

When it comes down to it, surely that the main reason for having capoes?

Subject: RE: Help: Different Chords playing same key
From: Gary T
Date: 20 Apr 02 - 12:09 AM

In jams I've been part of, it's not uncommon to have some guitars capoed while others are not. Occasionally there will be three different "keys" being played, e.g. open, capoed 2, capoed 4.

Subject: RE: Help: Different Chords playing same key
From: Big Mick
Date: 20 Apr 02 - 09:14 AM

Yep, that is what we normally do. If I am playing open, then the other guitar capoes. And I typically try to vary the type of strum a bit to fill out the sound.

Mick

Subject: RE: Help: Different Chords playing same key
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Apr 02 - 09:31 AM

Sometimes, a a particular capoed chord just sounds better. I figured out one Mudcatter's song with the "wrong" chords. I wound up with an Em song played with Am chords capoed up to the 7th fret. When he told me what chords he was using, I still wound up liking the Am chords better because the chord played as a G shape in the song sound better to me than the D without the capo. Also, the higher chords sound better to me on this particular guitar than they do with the capoless chords.

Don, I'm playing mostly using only 3 fingers, so I also find playing up the neck a LOT easier.

Subject: RE: Help: Different Chords playing same key
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Apr 02 - 10:37 AM

I have written arrangements for as many as five guitars--overlaying different voicings--it isn't necessary to use capos, either--one of the best things about guitars is that there are always a bunch of alternate voicings--each with it's own special feature (drones, easy bass drops, closed position melodies) and they always fit together(well, not always, but you know what I mean)--

Subject: RE: Help: Different Chords playing same key
From: GUEST,Bullfrog Jones (on the road)
Date: 20 Apr 02 - 10:58 AM

As the acoustic guitarist in a (mostly) electric band I do this a lot. As Willie-O mentioned earlier you can get the tonal effect of a mandolin -- and I know a lot more chords on the guitar than I do on the mandolin. It's good to do in sessions as well, for the variety, and it keeps you on your toes too, doing instant transpositions in your head. Makes you think that maybe you COULD cut it with those Nashville guys and their numbering system (if only!)

Subject: RE: Help: Different Chords playing same key
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 20 Apr 02 - 11:16 AM

To add another complication, having one guitar in an alternate tuning while the second one is in standard, gives some nice sound textures.

Subject: RE: Help: Different Chords playing same key
From: 53
Date: 20 Apr 02 - 11:18 AM

I think that 2 guitars caped at different positions sounds great.

Subject: RE: Help: Different Chords playing same key
From: allanwill
Date: 20 Apr 02 - 11:49 AM

My little group also employs this practice and, as Wille-O says, you can get quite a nice mandolin sound when one guitar (especially a 12 string) is capoed way up.

Allan

Subject: RE: Help: Different Chords playing same key
From: Bud Savoie
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 08:04 AM

Capo up a 12-string? And lose all that resonant bass? Ugh!

Subject: RE: Help: Different Chords playing same key
From: allanwill
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 10:34 AM

Bud Savoie

With the second guitar being a Martin we find there is plenty of bass.

Allan

Subject: RE: Help: Different Chords playing same key
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 11:15 AM

Don - What a "refreshing idea!"

A safe haven away from the world of ills, scandals and politics where one can discuss music among musicians. A place far from the maddening crowd.

RE:Has anyones group ever tried playing three instruments, one playing a "C" chord, one an "E" chord, and the other a "G" chord with the whole sound created being a massive "C" chord. Probably not.

A choral group or barber shop quartet creates this effect by each singer taking a different note and sometimes creating overtones that inspire awe. With guitars it would work if the combined fingering on each guitar gave a solid C only, E only, G only. Chording using CEGEGBGBD would create a C9dim and a Andrew Loyld Webber type sound.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Help: Different Chords playing same key
From: C-flat
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 01:14 PM

I use this technique a lot to add texture to the guitar sounds when playing with the band although I've never used three guitars! Varying chord shapes have such different characteristics and options that, as a band, we do this routinely. I have also got a reasonable mandolin sound out of a capo'd guitar when needed, with a bit of tweeking on the P.A.,although if possible I'd prefer to use the real thing. Sometimes, if the song has a strong, strummed ryhthm, I like to use different sounding guitars as well as different tunings. Maybe to include a classical guitar alongside a steel stringer or twelve string.

Subject: RE: Help: Different Chords playing same key
From: Lynn
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 03:08 PM

Don - Before my partner got a mando he used to capo his 12-string and play up high. Yes, Bud, you lose the 12-string bass, but my husky Guild more than made up for it on the low end! I bought it primarily for its punchy bass.

Subject: RE: Help: Different Chords playing same key
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 03:11 PM

The early rock'n'roll recording artists, particularly on the King label, such as the Delmore Bros, discovered the punch that comes from recording multiple guitars--

Subject: RE: Help: Different Chords playing same key
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 09:24 PM

Nice point C/b

The "chord shapes" as you call them (different fingerings same notes) or the "voicings" as I call them ..... add a texture, a nuance, that can become distinctive a particular player or group.

You're out of luck DonnyM - the world is dancing with hob-nailed boots on your freshly waxed 1912 Gibson

Subject: RE: Help: Different Chords playing same key
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 09:29 PM

Another peculiarity about the guitar is that you can get a different sound quality by playing the same note on a different string--

Subject: RE: Help: Different Chords playing same key
From: DonMeixner
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 11:41 PM

My question about guitars playing chords to create an overtone chord was more academic than practical. I just wondered if it was do-able or anyone had bothered even to try. I failed to find a practcal use for the experiment myself. and I do know that that is how a barbershop quartet develops its harmonic structure.

Now if the Guest would please explain the hobnail boots on my Gibson guitar thing. I'd appreciate it. And why am I out of luck. I think the thread served its purpose. We thought about music for an hour or so and avoided the real world for just a bit. At least one person got some jollies by throwing ridicule in my direction for awhile

All in all it weren't so bad a day.

Don

Subject: RE: Help: Different Chords playing same key
From: Rolfyboy6
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 12:32 AM

Never mind Gargle, the voices in his head make him do this stuff.

Since I started learning to play up the neck and started to know the fingerboard this question has turned itself around naturally-you have to use all different positions and inversions. The trick becomes to find ways to play the tune's signature riff in the new positions. At the same time it allows you to drop down and play two bars in unison for emphasis and thundering dynamics before going back up the neck. To learn to do this you have to lose your capo for a while and force yourself to learn the higher positions.

Subject: RE: Help: Different Chords playing same key
From: GUEST,Weebo
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 12:47 PM

An interesting thread. I was recently asked into an existing band where one fella's on the way out...but not out yet. Makes for some interesting practice sessions politically. I had to find parts to complement, and not duplicate existing lines and I've been doing exactly what you're taling about here. Generally it works quite well. I find you still need to be careful though. I tend to hang back a bit and toss in bits here and there.

Subject: RE: Help: Different Chords playing same key
From: Cap't Bob
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 06:33 PM

When I had my old Yamaha 12 string guitar it was necessary to tune it low to keep the neck from bending. Preferring the lower sounds of the 12 string I would just forget the capo, play in a different keys, and add all those great sounding bass notes. While the others would be playing in "D" I would be playing in "E" etc. Anyone using a capo on their tender 12 string might want to give this a try.

Cap't Bob