BS: Size of a shamrock

Subject: Size of a shamrock
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 09:39 PM

Some help from our Irish 'Catters here?

I know that the shamrock is supposed to be different than the common clover here in the US in as much as it has heartshaped leaves...but, could you all answer a few more questions for me? How big are shamrocks? Do they flower, and if so, what color are the flowers? How green are the leaves?

Thanks!!

Subject: RE: BS: Size of a shamrock
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 09:55 PM

The shamrock is the yellow-flowering clover known in plant nurseries as Trifolium dubium. The plant is small, leaves about one inch, flowers small. It shows up in stores on St. Patrick's Day, but it is temporary here; the climate is too cold (western Canada)to grow it outside. Never tried it in a greenhouse, or tried to grow it in the house, so really don't know what it requires.

Subject: RE: BS: Size of a shamrock
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 09:59 PM

I have some of that exact variety growing in my backyard, but a friend of mine told me that the plant known as the Shamrock in Ireland is much larger than the clover here in the states, and these little yellow flowering plants are much smaller.

My brief websearch turned up a few sites, but the closest I could come to a consensus is that "Shamrock" means one of potentially 3-4 different plants.

What the hey...the ones I have are pretty, no matter what they may be called.

Thanks for the info, Dicho!! :D

Subject: RE: BS: Size of a shamrock
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 11:21 PM

Here is probably more than you wanted to know, from the OED. "The "shamrock" of the legend has been conjecturally identified with many different plants, e. g. the white clover, T. repens; the red clover..., the black medic ... (leaving out sci. names), the wood sorrel..., and the water cress. The name is now most commonly applied to the lesser yellow trefoil, Trifolium minus, which is the plant most frequently worn as an emblem on St. Patrick's Day."
The wood sorrel, Oxalis, is often seen in florists and sold as shamrock- it has larger, often 4-lobed leaves. A yellow species comes from Europe but is not native to the British Isles. It is often a troublesome weed.
I think the T. minus, mentioned in the OED, could be the same as the T. dubium I mentioned earlier. Names change as more data is accumulated on species, and can be confusing unless you know quite a bit about plants.

Subject: RE: BS: Size of a shamrock
From: Mr Red
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 07:35 AM

Trifolium Ripens ?helpmeouthere?
I tried to get a plant once when I got lazy looking for 4 leaf clovers
You guessed it - no luck!
However as it happens I know of several patches of 4 leaf clovers - they are never exclusive and quite elusive. But once you find a cluster you can return year after year and they will be there, though this is not the best time of year. May/June and after a long dry spell followed by a few days rain and a day or two for growth - is the formula.
The sods at Railtrack here in the UK had a fright with subsidence locally and dumped ballast right on the nearest target area but they can't keep 4 leaf clovers down - by their nature they are the hardiest mutants - I found 4 in a miniscule patch at a hit rate of maybe 5% which is very high for 4 leaf clover hunting

I know, I know - call me sad - but potentially a lucky sad individual. Unemployed - but those 4 leaf clovers are gonna work someday!

Subject: RE: BS: Size of a shamrock
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 07:43 AM

I thought a shamrock was a thing that was made of paper mache to look like a rock that you could use til a real rock came along.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Size of a shamrock
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 07:45 AM

I think the shampoo is even better than the real stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Size of a shamrock
From: gnomad
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 08:05 AM

Champagne for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Size of a shamrock
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 08:25 AM

Ok what is the etymology of the word, never mind how big it is?

Subject: RE: BS: Size of a shamrock
From: Snuffy
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 09:08 AM

I believe it's a gaelic word - something like "tseam rog", but I don't know if it means anything (like larkspur, shepherds purse etc).

WassaiL! V

Subject: RE: BS: Size of a shamrock
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 09:17 AM

Greg, are you saying that size doesn't matter?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Size of a shamrock
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 09:25 AM

As long as it's got three bits so as it can be used to illustrate the concept of the Holy Trinity, I don't think size matters. But it's also got to look good attached to your coat on March 17, which might rule out what you have in mind, spaw.

Subject: RE: BS: Size of a shamrock
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 09:47 AM

shamrock grows easily and plentifully indoors in the US, virtually impossible to kill, flowers beautifully a couple of times a year, little flowers, the three leaf clusters approximately 3-4 inches in diameter, MUCH larger than clover, and not as rounded in shape, I could send you a clump,

Subject: RE: BS: Size of a shamrock
From: MMario
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 09:56 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Size of a shamrock
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 10:01 AM

What I call shamrock is an oxalis; look it up with Google images. Size of leaves depends on quality of dirt, amount of light, etc. Leaves can get quite large; flowers are usually small. Can be white, pink, yellow, etc. I also have some red leafed oxalis that is apparently wild outside. It's quite a bit smaller than the inside green version.

Subject: RE: BS: Size of a shamrock
From: allanwill
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 10:28 AM

The botanical name sounds like it comes straight out of an Irish folk song -

Trifolium - olium dubium - i - day!

Allan

Subject: RE: BS: Size of a shamrock
From: Jimmy C
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 11:27 AM

I don't know the latin name for it, but any shamrock I ever saw was very small, nowhere near 1" or ever 3/4". It is a cluster of very small thin stems with 3 little leaves on each stem Each leaf would measure approx 1/8 inch, maybe a few would be nearer to a 1/4 inch. I have never came across any that were larger than this.

Subject: RE: BS: Size of a shamrock
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 11:38 AM

Well I only know Irish shamrocks(and those marketed in England for Paddys day) and they aremuch smaller than clovers( or to be accurate,what we call clovers over here).I thinkwe need info from people who have celebrated in the USA and Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Size of a shamrock
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 11:49 AM

We used to be shipped shamrocks from Co. Limerick from my grandmother when I was a child and they were certainly of the 1/8-inch leaf variety.

Dicho: you said the "the shamrock of legend" ... apart from the St Patrick tale about it representing the Trinity, are there any other legends?

Subject: RE: BS: Size of a shamrock
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 05:48 PM

I think the florists have convinced Americans that the Oxalis (wood sorrel) is the true shamrock because it is larger and showier, South American and South African species especially. The original was probably the white clover, Trifolium repens, but there is no way of proving that.

Shamrock comes from the Irish seamróg (Gaelic seamrig), diminutive of seamar, or CLOVER. These are Anglicized spellings, someone will probably post the Gaelic.

Subject: RE: BS: Size of a shamrock
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 05:55 PM

Clover over here tends to have oval shaped leaves. The only ones I have seen here growing wild with heartshaped leaves are the little ones with yellow flowers.

I was happy to know that they are one of the one that have been dubbed "Shamrock"

One of the sites I looked at also said that Shamrock comes from "Shamroy" (not the Irish spelling, obviously), meaning "clover".

Dunno how true that is, however...

Subject: RE: BS: Size of a shamrock
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 06:04 PM

found this:

"15) What's the difference between clover and shamrock?

Short answer: shamrock is smaller than clover.

Long answer: shamrock and clover are both used to refer to species of trefoil (genus Trifolium, from the Latin meaning "having three leaves"). Clover is used for large species and shamrock for small species. Shamrock, like clover, is common in Europe, not just in Ireland. "

Subject: RE: BS: Size of a shamrock
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 06:10 PM

Well, then we can get into "sweet clover" as opposed to "wild clover".........sweet clover has a trefoil, oval leaf, commonly grows in lawns (is often included in a grass seed mix)and has round white flower heads. Wild clover will grow to 6' tall, is rangy and has tiny yellow flowers.......both are very potent allergens.

Subject: RE: BS: Size of a shamrock
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 06:11 PM

even more definitive:

http://www.arhomeandgarden.org/landscape/HolidayGardening/Shamrocks.asp

Subject: RE: BS: Size of a shamrock
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 06:34 PM

Clover= large and shamrock = small is not botanically valid since they are the same thing- just a difference in language. Shamrock is a clover is a clover is a clover, to paraphrase. There are over 300 species of clovers in a fair range of sizes.
In the foothills from near the Canadian border to California occurs one with 3-9 leaflets on each leaf rather than the usual 3 in most species of Trifolium. Needless to say, you have a good chance of finding a "4-leaf clover" with this species, Trifolium macrocephalum, which also has a large flower head, up to 5 inches long. As well, this one is nice as a cooked green.

Subject: RE: BS: Size of a shamrock
From: pict
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 06:46 PM

Seamrag is the Scots Gaelic word for any clover but particularly the wood sorrel the word derives from seam(which can be traced back to Old Irish)which means mild,seamrag meaning the little mild one.Trifolium repens(Dutch clover) is the type now used as the emblem of Ireland on Paddy's day etc. but originally it was the wood sorrel.

Subject: RE: BS: Size of a shamrock
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 08:28 PM

The books all say that there are lots of different types of clover that get called shamrock. And each sort is the one and only real shanmrock and all the others are strange substitutes made by poor people who can't get hold of the right sort.

And the real stuff for me is the sort that the cousins always used to send us over every March, and it's got very small leaves and is dark green and grows in wet conditions, and no matter how good the roots might be, if you try planting it over in England it dies on you.

Subject: RE: BS: Size of a shamrock
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 08:37 PM

Pict, what is your evidence that the wood sorrel is the original shamrock? If you can answer that, you have put finis to an investigation no one else has ever been able to complete!

Subject: RE: BS: Size of a shamrock
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 08:59 PM

Moist, cool, breezy, consistent. Very hard to duplicate conditions. McGrath, I prefer the small green stuff too. A florist here tries to get it every year, but sometimes it doesn't survive the trip (and the plant inspectors).

Subject: RE: BS: Size of a shamrock
From: pict
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 09:02 PM

Both Scotland and Ireland were heavily wooded and wood sorrel is plentiful in such an environment and if you ask most Scots Gaelic speakers what the shamrock plant is the plant they'd pick is wood sorrel the plant was used for thickening milk to make crowdie.Apart from anything I didn't mean what I wrote to be so definitive as you took it to be there has been and will be debate over the true shamrock for ever but according to Douglas Clyne a noted Gaelic academic and author of "Gaelic names for flowers and plants" the general consensus of most academics in this field is that the shamrock was originally Oxalis acetosella,the wood-sorrel

Subject: RE: BS: Size of a shamrock
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 06:29 AM

"general consensus of most academics in this field"?? it's great what you can get grants for nowadays, isn't it. I know they have schools of Celtic Studies...do they have special Shamrock Departments? Anyway, given that a lot of people think the academic world is all a bit theoretical and removed from real life, it's good to hear they are all out in a field doing their research.

Subject: RE: BS: Size of a shamrock
From: gnu
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 06:39 AM

The only academic on Shamrocks I ever knew was my old man. When I was a lad and he took me up country fishing, he'd say, "Time to plant some Shamrocks." before he'd urinate.

Subject: RE: BS: Size of a shamrock
From: pict
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 09:06 AM

I meant the field of Gaelic etymology.