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Lyr Req: Honor Bright (Peter Yeates)

JenBurdoo 21 Apr 02 - 09:53 PM
Malcolm Douglas 21 Apr 02 - 10:07 PM
JenBurdoo 22 Apr 02 - 05:42 AM
Chip2447 23 Apr 02 - 02:42 AM
GUEST,Roger O'K 23 Apr 02 - 06:38 AM
Jim Dixon 25 Apr 02 - 11:55 AM
GUEST,Douglas Johnson 21 Feb 06 - 12:10 AM
Jim Dixon 26 Feb 06 - 07:14 PM
GUEST,Douglas Johnson 27 Feb 06 - 09:25 AM
Jim Dixon 27 Feb 06 - 07:04 PM
Snuffy 28 Feb 06 - 08:09 AM
Big Mick 28 Feb 06 - 09:16 AM
GUEST 04 Mar 06 - 05:05 AM
GUEST,Pete Yeates 04 Mar 06 - 05:15 AM
An Pluiméir Ceolmhar 07 Mar 06 - 05:03 PM
Big Mick 07 Mar 06 - 11:58 PM
GUEST,Guest 05 Jul 06 - 11:26 PM
GUEST,Markao 29 Dec 06 - 06:48 AM
GUEST,Sarah Mc 17 Feb 07 - 07:40 AM
GUEST 19 Jun 08 - 02:27 AM
GUEST,Gary Davis, the Bambino 19 Jun 08 - 11:17 PM
GUEST,Jennifer Burdoo 16 Aug 09 - 05:47 AM
GUEST,Jaiboyblu 18 Aug 09 - 09:15 AM
GUEST 04 May 10 - 01:26 PM
GUEST,Markao 09 Feb 11 - 12:33 PM
GUEST 11 May 11 - 06:45 AM
GUEST,Dub Guest 09 Jun 11 - 12:38 PM
GUEST 11 Jan 12 - 06:22 AM
JohnR 01 Oct 13 - 10:23 AM
GUEST 06 Apr 14 - 12:29 PM
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Subject: Mother Bright?
From: JenBurdoo
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 09:53 PM

Heard this one on a CD called Loose Cannons, along with a variety of sea and Irish songs. Borrowed it from a friend so I don't know the song's name. Can anyone tell me about the song and its lyrics?

It sounds like its about a murder and about the emigration from Dublin, but as usual I can't decipher it. It starts:

In 1925, Dublin was a hive...

Chorus

Who was it did it, and who can tell us why And some days, they said she was no loss Everybody knew it was a doctor and a screw Left her in a ditch near Landoil's Cross


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mother Bright?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 10:07 PM

The CD appears to be a compilation of recordings by The Jolly Rogers, whoever they are. There's a track-listing here: Loose Cannons

The song may perhaps be Honor Bright It sounds like a modern composition.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mother Bright?
From: JenBurdoo
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 05:42 AM

That's it, my friend has both these CDs. The Jolly Rogers are a KS/Missouri group, I believe. You're right about modern, as it mentions 1975 as well. Anyone have the words or history to this?

Oh, and thanks for the link. Now I've got another (albeit far less comprehensive) lyrics site to look at. :)

There wouldn't perhaps be a way to change the thread title, would there?

Jennifer


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mother Bright? - Honor Bright
From: Chip2447
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 02:42 AM

Jen, they are indeed from the Kansas city area, and the song is Honor Bright. Being right in the middle of a move though, I cant help you with the lyrics. In addition to the link above this one might prove helpful, Click here
Their Pirates Gold is an excellent CD also.
I've enjoyed them for years at the Kansas City Renfest.
Chip2447


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mother Bright? - Honor Bright
From: GUEST,Roger O'K
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 06:38 AM

I think that the song probably is modern, in the sense that it postdates the events described.

Honor Bright was a prostitute who was murdered, and her body was found at Ticknock, in the Dublin mountains overlooking the city, near what was then army rifle range. The spot is close to The Lamb Doyle's, a pub called after a previous owner who was a "gentle giant". The crossroads nearby is officially known as Lamb's Cross.

Honor Bright's murder occurred in an era when murders were apparently very rare in Ireland, and it was a talking-point for years, but I don't know anything about the perpetrator.

I first heard the story when I started going to the Ticknock rifle range for FCA (= National Guard/TAVR) training. I subsequently lived near there for more than fifteen years, and it's an area where I have often gone hill-walking. Now it's becoming overrun with rampant urban sprawl. Coincidentally, within the last few days I have been thinking of signing up as a Mudcat member and using "Ticknock" as my nickname because it has such happy memories for me, but now it might seem a little bit kinky. So I reckon you inadvertently spoiled that one for me, Jen!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mother Bright? - Honor Bright
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 11:55 AM

For the record, "Honour bright" is also an expression—something British (and maybe Irish) kids say (or used to say) to "swear" the are telling the truth, or to seal a promise, like the American equivalent, "Cross my heart and hope to die."

The phrase occurs several times in D. H. Lawrence's short story, "Rocking-Horse Winner," which includes a lot of dialogue between a young boy and his uncle. For example:

    "Yes, I am. But it's between you and me, uncle. Honour bright?"
    "Honour bright all right, son! But I must talk to Bassett."

There is an old scout song called "Scout Vespers," repeated in many places on the Web, that contains the lines, "Have I kept my hono(u)r bright? Can I guiltless sleep tonight?"


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mother Bright? - Honor Bright
From: GUEST,Douglas Johnson
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 12:10 AM

Sorry, I know it's terribly bad form to be jumping into a thread so long after it went stale, but I thought you might be interested in this (if any of you are still active here).

I recently acquired the Jolly Rogers' CD "Loose Cannons" and was also intrigued by "Honor Bright". Researching the lyrics led me to this site and, with some additional digging, I uncovered quite a few interesting facts about it.

For one thing, the words and music were written by Peter Yeates, a Dubliner now living in the northwest of the USA. If anyone wants more details, look at the webpage I made about the song: www.geocities.com/johnson487682/honor_bright .


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Subject: Lyr Add: HONOR BRIGHT (Peter Yeates)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 26 Feb 06 - 07:14 PM

No, Douglas, it's not bad form at all to revive an old thread when you have relevant information to add or a relevant question to ask. It's better than starting a new thread. We like to have all the discussion about one song in one thread. I just hope you don't consider it bad form to copy the lyrics here that you so carefully transcribed and annotated.

HONOUR BRIGHT
Peter Yeates

Well, in 1925,
Dublin was a hive
Of activity, 'cause change was a-comin' down.
Frank Duff wasted no time
With his ladies of the L. of M.
They set about to clear out Monto town.

And across the city quays,
A girl from the Liberties
Was doin' all she could just to get by.
Oh, the green that was her beat
And the lads that she loved to meet
All knew her by the name of "Honour Bright".

CHORUS: Who was it did it, and who can tell us why?
And some, they say, said she was no loss.
Everybody knew
It was a doctor and the screw
Left her in a ditch near Lamb Doyle's Cross.

Well, that evening in June,
"Her Honour" was in tune
As she headed for her turf just to meet her star.
When two men in a car did show
Near the top of Merrion Row
And to their delight she stepped inside the car.

Well, they quickly turned the keys,
And this girl from the Liberties
Was never again to see the broad daylight.
For on the Ticknock mountain grounds,
They laid her body down,
And they killed the girl we knew as "Honour Bright". CHORUS

Now, in 1975,
Dublin was a hive
Of activity, 'cause change was a-comin' down.
Oh, the folks, they planned to meet.
They were goin' to clear the streets
From Merrion Square and Mount Street to Lansdowne.

Well, on the same side of the quays,
A ghost of the Liberties
Was doin' all she could just to get by.
Oh, the green that was her beat
And the lads that she used to meet
Are the retrospective view of "Honour Bright". CHORUS TWICE

[As sung by the Jolly Rogers on their album "Loose Cannons;" by Old Triangle (of which Peter Yeates was a member) on "Grande Affaire" (1984); by Full Shilling (of which Peter Yeates is a member) on "Full Shilling" (date unknown—but there's a sound sample at CD Baby), and by Peter Yeates on "Just to Get By" (date unknown) and "Back in the Middle" (1996).]


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mother Bright? - Honor Bright
From: GUEST,Douglas Johnson
Date: 27 Feb 06 - 09:25 AM

You're certainly welcome to post the lyrics wherever you want--I'm just glad you considered my information relevant. And, I noted with a chuckle that you changed each occurrence of "Honor" to "Honour". I don't know how Hono(u)r herself spelled her name, but I used "Honor" because Peter Yeates spelled the song's title "Honor Bright" in the CD track listing on his website.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mother Bright? - Honor Bright
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 27 Feb 06 - 07:04 PM

Ah, yes, the old spelling problem.

Spelling is important at Mudcat mainly because people often use search engines to find lyrics and other information. Information is harder to find, and therefore our web site is less useful, if it contains misspellings. But which spelling is right in this case?

In my opinion, the rule of thumb should be: song lyrics should be spelled according to the practice of the country they come from, or "belong to," if that makes any sense. American song lyrics should be spelled the American way, and so on, regardless of who sings them or who posts them, or even who wrote them.

So then the question becomes: Is this song Irish or American? Either is arguable in this case, but I think the fact that the subject matter is definitely Irish outweighs the fact that the author has lived in America for a long time, and may have adopted American spelling.

The author's preference carries some weight, but is not necessarily decisive. A more important consideration is: when people search for this song, are they more likely to search for "honor" or "honour"? If they think of it as an Irish song, and particularly if they're Irish themselves (or British, Canadian, etc.), I figure they're more likely to search for "honour."

To be honest, I pondered this question before I posted the lyrics, and I'm not 100% sure I'm right. Maybe I think too much.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mother Bright? - Honor Bright
From: Snuffy
Date: 28 Feb 06 - 08:09 AM

In Britain I would probably spell it "Honor" if it were somebody's name, but "honour" if it were the virtue.

But as we've got one spelling in the thread title and the other in the lyric posting, people should be able to find it using either spelling.

So all is truly for the best in the best of all possible cyberworlds.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mother Bright? - Honor Bright
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Feb 06 - 09:16 AM

The author of the song is indeed Peter Yeates. He has recorded it on several albums. One of my favorite versions he did was with the group known as The Full Shilling. You can read more about Peter at HERE

All the best,

Mick


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Honor Bright / Honour Bright
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Mar 06 - 05:05 AM

Hey Guys, This is Pete Yeates. Holy fuck, I can't believe there is a debate going on over a stupid song I wote over twenty years ago!
Thank you Mick Lane for turning me on to this site. Jasus, who would have thunk!
    Okay, The song is a true story about a dead hooker from Dublin. I'm from Sandymount Dublin. I now live outside Portland Oregon.   
    Years and years ago I was on tour with the Old Triangle, when a gig was cancelled in Philadelphia. So I stayed in Des Moines, Iowa with a friend for a week. He was collector of Irish books and one day I picked this little book off the shelf called "The Monto, Dublin's Red light District"...or something like that, I found a two line reference to Honor Bright. I remembered hearing stories and reading an article about her in the Irish papers years before and I wrote the fucking song in about twenty minutes. I, being Anglo-Irish for want of a better term would have spelled it "honour", but the book and maybe because it was re-edited for American consumption, spelled it "honor. I must admit, I did mull over it, but then decided ...when in Rome etc!
   I would love to hear Jolly Rogers version. I like the way I recorded on my CD 'Back In The Middle" the best.
    By the way, I'm still very much alive and out there. I, and two of my former cohorts from thr Full Shilling, one of the first U.S. based celtic/rock bands, and a fabulous bodhran player from Minneapolis have just released a new CD. We are called "New Shilling" The CD is pretty fucking great! I also recorded a new solo CD, it will be out later this year. The New Shilling will be playing at The Portland Irish Festival St Pat's weekend. I am at Kierans Pub in Minneapolis from March 9th-11th. Thanks, Pete.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Honor Bright / Honour Bright
From: GUEST,Pete Yeates
Date: 04 Mar 06 - 05:15 AM

Almost forgot, if anyone needs more info you can get in touch with me at PKYeates@aol.com or peteryeates.com. Cheers!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Honor Bright / Honour Bright
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 05:03 PM

I would tend to agree that "Honor" seems to be the accepted spelling of the proper name. That's certainly how I (aka Guest R O'K above), a card-carrying Dubliner of some antiquity, would spell it in referring to her.


BTW, for those not in the know, the L of M is the Legion of Mary, a Catholic organisation that did what it could to combat prostitution and other social ills, but that did have a rather conservative, sanctimonious, self-righeous image.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Honor Bright / Honour Bright
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 11:58 PM

Great to see you here, Pete. But then again, it is great to see you anywhere. Folks, if you get a chance to hear "New Shilling" I would suggest you do so. Pete is one consumate musician. And doesn't mind the occasional drop o' the pure from time to time. He always surrounds himself with great musicians. I will be looking for the CD.

All the best,

Mick


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Honor Bright / Honour Bright
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 11:26 PM

Thank you so much for the lyrics to this song. I've been looking for them for a couple of years and came across this thread last year. I'm glad I came back to double check it. I even tried to email Pete for them once but it must of been a bad address and I never got a reply. Thank you! Thank you! Thank You!

Per M.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Mother Bright? - Honor Bright
From: GUEST,Markao
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 06:48 AM

For information:
Honor Bright (AKA: Lizzy or Elizabeth O'Neill) left behind a son (Kevin Barry aged 5). The son was not mentioned in the police investigation or the trial. He left Eire aged 19, fought in the war, married a German girl in Wales, had 9 children of whom I'm number 5. Yes, the story in the song is true.
An interesting point is that the Jury at the trial of ex-Superintendent Leopold J. Dillon and his cohort Dr Pk Purcell took only 3 minutes to return a unanimous verdict of not guilty. It's amazing how a jury could come up with such a fast & decisive verdict. After all there was only about 30hrs of evidence for the members to consider and discuss, including the complete reversal of the statements offered by both defendants. You might think the trial was fixed, but I could not possibly comment.
It's also interesting that the evidence documents were only ever held at the police station, evidence was revealed in court that was not allowed to be recorded or heard by anyone other than court officials. Interesting also that the transcript of the trial cannot be seen and after 82 years are still being held in secrecy by the Irish government.
Personnaly I'd love to know what happened and if there really was a link to a senior politician of the day.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Honor Bright (Peter Yeates)
From: GUEST,Sarah Mc
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 07:40 AM

Markao,

I'm an Irish journalist, I work for the Sunday Tribune newspaper. I'm actually also working on a book at the moment about attacks and murders of women in the Dublin/Wicklow mountains.

I'm hoping to dedicate one of the chapters in the book to Honor Bright, and I really would be extremely interested to speak to you about this. All the information in your post is fascinating, and I will be hoping to enquire into what exactly happened in the court case.

Please do email me on smcinerney@tribune.ie.

Hope to hear from you soon! Sarah


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Honor Bright (Peter Yeates)
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 02:27 AM

LOL I have looked for the lyrics to this song forever...it bugs me not knowing the lyrics to the songs I like. (Pretty cool the lyricist stopped by, too...though I wouldn't call the song "stupid" personally. :grin: It's one of my favorites.) Definitely thanks to those who got the lyrics put here!

Al


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Honor Bright (Peter Yeates)
From: GUEST,Gary Davis, the Bambino
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 11:17 PM

I am happy to count myself among Pete Yeates' group of friends. The song Honor Bright has been the source of a long-running controversy between me and another of Pete's friends. He claims Honor Bright is the best song ever, while I hold out for Pete's love song about the neighborhood he grew up in, "Sandymount".

At any rate, if you ever get a chance to see him, do so - he is one hell of a singer and a consummate accoustic guitar player.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Honor Bright (Peter Yeates)
From: GUEST,Jennifer Burdoo
Date: 16 Aug 09 - 05:47 AM

Feth! I can't believe I missed this. I posted it all those years ago, and somehow the songwriter and a relative of the subject found my dinky little request for lyrics. Amazingly small world, I guess.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Honor Bright (Peter Yeates)
From: GUEST,Jaiboyblu
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 09:15 AM

I am researching the tale of Honor (Lily) Bright for a theatrical adaptation, and would appreciate any info I can gather.The tale is very Intriguing, but not terribley well documented.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Honor Bright (Peter Yeates)
From: GUEST
Date: 04 May 10 - 01:26 PM

Paddykraut

I'm researching this story too, but through the Irish police as Honor Bright was my grandmother. She changed her name twice, but her real name was Mary Kate Neal and she was never called Elizabeth - the newspapers invented that. If you are going to write something about her you will need permission from my family - and you'll need to get your facts right too. You can contact me any time. I love the song too.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Honor Bright (Peter Yeates)
From: GUEST,Markao
Date: 09 Feb 11 - 12:33 PM

Well that's two of the latter day "honor bright" clan.
I'm happy to chat to anyone on this subject. Although to be fair I'll be on the lookout for information, as what we actually know is relatively limited. You have rightly said there is surprisingly little about the lady except that she came to a sad end. Most information is in newspaper, court and police records. I'm not sure how much true credence can be placed on them. While the folk tale is interesting, I'm personally more interested in where she came from than what eventually brought about her demise. Mark


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Honor Bright (Peter Yeates)
From: GUEST
Date: 11 May 11 - 06:45 AM

iv'e just come across this story and as my mother was from the liberties and im now liveing in the area that was once known as the monto, i love to hear more..it would be nice for all concerned if the papers relating to the case were released by the authorities but that is the irish gvt for you..probably still trying to protect the garda's family..anyway id hope even today that honors family get the answers they deserve..3 minutes deliberation by a jury in a murder trial is a disgrace..may she r.i.p..


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Honor Bright (Peter Yeates)
From: GUEST,Dub Guest
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 12:38 PM

I think its the anniversary of her (Honor Bright's) death today, 8th/9th of june. For all concerned I live in Ticknock and only recently noticed the Plaque in her honour. I asked my mother about it and she had a small book on the subject, its also about monto. Its a very sad story and Im sure one that is echoed all over the world and still almost exactly the same thing goes on today. Every time I drive by the spot where she lay, I bough my head as a mark of respect. So although I never knew her, she is still remembered today, and I will pass on the story to my kids someday.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Honor Bright (Peter Yeates)
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 06:22 AM

Read the book. I think its called " where no one can here your screams" Based on murders and assaults on the wicklow dublin mountains. It features the story of Honor bright and details of the trial. Carol.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Honor Bright (Peter Yeates)
From: JohnR
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 10:23 AM

Perhaps as Peter Yeates spelled as 'Honor Bright' it is indeed better for search reasons to use that spelling when referring to this song as there is a song 'Honour Bright' by Austin John Marshall written for his threepenny opera 'Anonymous Smudge' and sung by Shirley Collins and Steve Ashley on Shirley's 4CD retrospective 'Within Sound'
John Rawlinson


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Honor Bright (Peter Yeates)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 12:29 PM

With a few errors in the lyrics included, here is the song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jloucBlaAsM


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