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OBIT: Linda Boreman aka Linda Lovelace

SharonA 23 Apr 02 - 12:00 PM
catspaw49 23 Apr 02 - 12:08 PM
SharonA 23 Apr 02 - 12:13 PM
catspaw49 23 Apr 02 - 12:32 PM
Wesley S 23 Apr 02 - 01:08 PM
GUEST 23 Apr 02 - 01:12 PM
GUEST,jonesey 23 Apr 02 - 01:16 PM
Clinton Hammond 23 Apr 02 - 02:01 PM
SharonA 23 Apr 02 - 02:07 PM
catspaw49 23 Apr 02 - 02:27 PM
SharonA 23 Apr 02 - 02:40 PM
catspaw49 23 Apr 02 - 02:52 PM
SharonA 23 Apr 02 - 03:05 PM
catspaw49 23 Apr 02 - 03:12 PM
Irish sergeant 23 Apr 02 - 03:13 PM
Bat Goddess 23 Apr 02 - 03:15 PM
GUEST,jonesey 23 Apr 02 - 03:16 PM
GUEST,greg stephens 23 Apr 02 - 03:28 PM
katlaughing 23 Apr 02 - 03:40 PM
GUEST,jonesey 23 Apr 02 - 03:40 PM
mack/misophist 23 Apr 02 - 03:56 PM
Clinton Hammond 23 Apr 02 - 04:09 PM
SharonA 23 Apr 02 - 04:11 PM
SharonA 23 Apr 02 - 04:21 PM
kendall 23 Apr 02 - 04:35 PM
Ebbie 23 Apr 02 - 05:05 PM
greg stephens 23 Apr 02 - 05:19 PM
SharonA 23 Apr 02 - 05:20 PM
Bill D 23 Apr 02 - 05:27 PM
greg stephens 23 Apr 02 - 05:35 PM
catspaw49 23 Apr 02 - 05:48 PM
SharonA 23 Apr 02 - 06:06 PM
greg stephens 23 Apr 02 - 06:21 PM
GUEST 23 Apr 02 - 06:31 PM
SharonA 23 Apr 02 - 07:18 PM
pict 23 Apr 02 - 07:20 PM
catspaw49 23 Apr 02 - 07:47 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Apr 02 - 07:48 PM
greg stephens 23 Apr 02 - 09:04 PM
Celtic Soul 23 Apr 02 - 09:54 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 23 Apr 02 - 09:55 PM
Terry K 24 Apr 02 - 04:44 AM
Irish sergeant 24 Apr 02 - 12:01 PM
Clinton Hammond 24 Apr 02 - 03:09 PM
SharonA 24 Apr 02 - 08:48 PM
GUEST 25 Apr 02 - 08:39 AM
pict 25 Apr 02 - 03:20 PM
SharonA 25 Apr 02 - 05:41 PM
pict 26 Apr 02 - 02:52 PM
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Subject: Linda Boreman aka Linda Lovelace
From: SharonA
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 12:00 PM

From www.cnn.com: http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/04/23/ obit.lovelace.ap/index.html


Linda Lovelace -- porn star who later fought porn -- dies at 53
April 23, 2002 Posted: 4:02 AM EDT (0802 GMT)

DENVER, Colorado (AP) -- Linda Boreman, who starred as Linda Lovelace in the 1972 pornographic film "Deep Throat" and later became an anti-porn advocate, died Monday of injuries she suffered in a car crash. She was 53.

Boreman was taken to Denver Health Medical Center with massive trauma and internal injuries after the April 3 accident, hospital spokeswoman Sara Spaulding said. She was taken off life support Monday, Spaulding said.

Boreman's ex-husband, Larry Marchiano, said he and their two adult children were at the hospital when she died. "Everyone might know her as something else, but we knew her as mom and as Linda," Marchiano said. "We divorced five years ago, but she was still my best friend." The family moved to Colorado in 1990 and the two divorced in 1996 after 22 years of marriage.

Boreman claimed her first husband forced her into pornography at gunpoint. They divorced in 1973. Their relationship disintegrated into a life of violence, rape, prostitution and pornography, according to her 1980 autobiography, "Ordeal," and her testimony before congressional committees investigating pornography.

Boreman said she was never paid a penny for "Deep Throat" and her husband only was paid $1,250, though the film grossed a reported $600 million.

After leaving the industry, she traveled the lecture circuit on a crusade against pornography, speaking at colleges and with prominent feminists. "I look in the mirror and I look the happiest I've ever looked in my entire life," she said in a 1997 interview. "I'm not ashamed of my past or sad about it. And what people might think of me, well, that's not real. I look in the mirror and I know that I've survived."

Boreman was born January 10, 1949, in the Bronx borough of New York.

Copyright 2002 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.


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Subject: RE: OBIT: Linda Boreman aka Linda Lovelace
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 12:08 PM

Car crash huh? Could have been worse......Can you imagine what the obit would have said if she'd choked to death?

Bye Linda and thanks for the fantasies memories.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: OBIT: Linda Boreman aka Linda Lovelace
From: SharonA
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 12:13 PM

So why did I post Linda Lovelace's obit? Because I never knew of her stand against pornography, and I have newfound respect for her for taking that stand. It takes guts to be a survivor instead of a victim, and it takes a lot of guts to talk publicly about what she went through and to work for change so that others don't have to go through the same ordeal.

A tragic end to a too-short life... but, if she was a fallen woman, she certainly rose above her circumstances. I hope others will pick up her standard and carry on her crusade.


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Subject: RE: OBIT: Linda Boreman aka Linda Lovelace
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 12:32 PM

Yeah well.........Maybe she was a survivor and all of that but uh...................Did you ever see "Deep Throat?" If that was "acting at gunpoint" then she deserves a posthumous Academy Award!

I'm sorry she's dead as I am for anyone leaving a family too soon and I feel for her family. I also tend to feel that the other stuff is revisionist history which helped her through and rationalized decisions she made when young. I don't have a real problem with porn myself as I'd prefer my kids watched people enjoying blowjobs instead of blowing each other up.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: OBIT: Linda Boreman aka Linda Lovelace
From: Wesley S
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 01:08 PM

Spaw - You mean "Make Love - Not War" ?? Catchy slogan.


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Subject: RE: OBIT: Linda Boreman aka Linda Lovelace
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 01:12 PM

...didn't you ever notice the bruises all over her body in "Deep Throat, Pat?" Didn't you wonder about that?


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Subject: RE: OBIT: Linda Boreman aka Linda Lovelace
From: GUEST,jonesey
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 01:16 PM

May she rest in peace and my condolences to her husband and children on the loss of their loved one. That being said I'm inclined to agree with Spaw in that her assertion of being 'forced at gunpoint' seems farfetched. While never having seen the movie and not being a fan of the genre myself I'm still suspicious of a 'reformed sinner' placing blame on someone else. Better to hear her ex-husband's side than to rush to condemnation of him or agreement with her perspective. Can't imagine a film crew, regardless of the level of debauch would allow someone to walk around with a loaded gun on set pointing it at the star. Maybe she 'was' threatened by him, but there are authorities to which one can report a 'terroristic threat' if one chooses. Had she truly moved on in her life there would have been no book or lecture tour(s).


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Subject: RE: OBIT: Linda Boreman aka Linda Lovelace
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 02:01 PM

That sucks...

See ya later, Linda...


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Subject: RE: OBIT: Linda Boreman aka Linda Lovelace
From: SharonA
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 02:07 PM

Jonesey says, "Had she truly moved on in her life there would have been no book or lecture tour(s)." I disagree. Fading into the woodwork only results in the perpetuation of wrongdoing. One doesn't have to be silent about one's past in order to past it.

Jonesey also says, "Maybe she 'was' threatened by him, but there are authorities to which one can report a 'terroristic threat' if one chooses." In 1972??? She would have been laughed out of the police station. Let's not forget that women (and men) have been fighting hard for the last 30 years and more to have domestic violence recognized and prosecuted as criminal behavior.

Wesley invokes the "Make Love - Not War" slogan. Again, I disagree. Pornography has nothing to do with love.

Spaw says, "I don't have a real problem with porn myself as I'd prefer my kids watched people enjoying blowjobs instead of blowing each other up." While the viewing of graphic violence in movies is pretty much assumed to be destructive to young minds, there are many who assert that the viewing of pornography is also destructive. Pornography objectifies people; it promotes the attitude that it's okay to cheat on one's partner and discounts love and commitment as part of a healthy relationship. And it certainly sends the message that it's okay not to use a condom! Are these really the lessons you want kids to learn – your kids or the kids with whom they may someday have relationships?


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Subject: RE: OBIT: Linda Boreman aka Linda Lovelace
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 02:27 PM

Yes Sharon, I'd like my kids to go around screwing everything that moves within an inch of it's life and then blowing them to Kingdom Come with some Gelignite after they force them to eat the barrel of a Colt .357 Python..........geeziz................Give it a break huh?

I have no form of pornography in my home and I don't promote it by any means. I also don't promote violence in any way either and I do check what the kids watch. But even my 9 year old, after being questioned about a particlarly violent appearing flick he was watching, had the intelligence and good sense to say, "Dad...It's just a movie! It's not real."

And I would have a really hard time promoting Linda Lovelace as a role model myself even if she had married Billy Graham!

Spaw


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Subject: RE: OBIT: Linda Boreman aka Linda Lovelace
From: SharonA
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 02:40 PM

Spaw: Give what a break? First you say you don't have 'a real problem with porn' yourself and make a spurious statement about letting your kids watch it, and then you say you 'have no form of pornography in my home and I don't promote it by any means'. Give me a break.


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Subject: RE: OBIT: Linda Boreman aka Linda Lovelace
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 02:52 PM

Everything isn't a cause. There are probably 20 "stories" about what really went on with Linda Lovelace. I think too much is made of the influence of "porn" and violence.......Nothing beats having a relationship with your kids so you can talk through all the things in the world that they will be exposed to and letting them have a mind that can separate the chaff from the grain. So no, I don't have a problem with either one nor do I promote either one.

But just in case I'm wrong, beware of my 9 year old who'll be after you and every other female on the planet soon with both guns cocked...........oy................

Spaw


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Subject: RE: OBIT: Linda Boreman aka Linda Lovelace
From: SharonA
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 03:05 PM

Spaw: EEEEEEEK! I'd better bar the doors now! Hmmm... is there a reason that the term is "cocked"? *G*

I certainly do not know whether Linda Boreman's version of her life as "Linda Lovelace" is the truth or revisionist history. To me, it doesn't matter; I still think that anti-pornography activism is a worthwhile cause. Maybe everything isn't a cause, but I believe that this is.

I believe that porn is a problem. I believe that viewing it does influence people's behavior (remember the recent murder of Danielle Van Dam in California). And I'm certain beyond doubt that the allure of the money to be made from illegal pornography influences people to abuse children in order to film kiddie porn. You'd better believe that I have a problem with that.


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Subject: RE: OBIT: Linda Boreman aka Linda Lovelace
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 03:12 PM

Hmmm.....The mention of "kiddie porn" reminds me that I do have a source of porn here.....this friggin' computer on the net. We've had several cases here lately of child pornography via the net. Yeah, that's an issue....with me too. Acts against kids, whether pornography or sexual molestation or violence of any sort for that matter, fall into a different category completely for me.   

Spaw


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Subject: RE: OBIT: Linda Boreman aka Linda Lovelace
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 03:13 PM

I never saw the movie. Don't know what the truth is. Either way, her family has a loss to deal with and my sympathy goes to them. What the woman was or did no longer matters. Neil


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Subject: RE: OBIT: Linda Boreman aka Linda Lovelace
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 03:15 PM

As someone who escaped an abusive marriage in 1979, I agree -- she would have been laughed out of a police station. Or, what is worse, she would have received NO assistance or protection and even worse advice.

Read her book. It's pretty convincing that the relationship was very, very abusive. And it left her with permanent physical problems from things her husband sexually enjoyed inflicting on her.

Linn


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Subject: RE: OBIT: Linda Boreman aka Linda Lovelace
From: GUEST,jonesey
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 03:16 PM

Sharon, Certainly depends on your perspective and definition of 'wrongdoing'. There are those that would take issue with your assertion pornography is 'any' sort of wrongdoing. But, again that's a matter of opinion. As far as her being 'laughed out of the station' as it was 1972??? I was simply giving her the benefit of the doubt regarding the truth of her accusation. Never have read or seen anything in respose from him. He said, she said. Character is defined by ones actions over a period of time and it's 'my' assertion she was certainly responsible for her own life's decisions leading up to the movie and beyond and was free to 'unload the asshole' at any point. You seem to be operating under the assumption she was telling the truth and I'm merely asserting there's reasonable doubt. Capitalizing on one's celebrity for a cause is nothing new and will be continued in the future, but I, personally am more respectful of those that simply go about the business of leading their restored lives. Seems from the quotes she was more upset at not sharing in 600 million gross than being threatened with murder.


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Subject: RE: OBIT: Linda Boreman aka Linda Lovelace
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 03:28 PM

never seen the movie, so I can't comment, though i deduce it isnt about family values. what strikes me as odd is the phrase "fallen woman" in SharonA's posting. is that still common usage? I thought the phrase, and the concept, went out with Victorian melodramas. It didnt seem to be being used ironically. Wouldn't you need be a good bit naughtier than blowjobs to be a fallen woman nowadays? i mean some of my best friends....


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Subject: RE: OBIT: Linda Boreman aka Linda Lovelace
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 03:40 PM

Her book, Out of Bondage was quite believable and I've seen "Deep Throat." I had a great deal of respect for her, for getting out of an abusive relationship and the industry. Any woman who is in an abusive relationship, or man, for that matter, cannot usually "unload the asshole at any point." There is so much more to it than that simplistic statement; it's about control. The abuser has all of the control.

Spaw, you are spot on about talking with your kids. Mine have all grown up to be pretty decent adults who saw and heard about all kinds of things when they were young, including porn, and did learn those oh-so-important critical thinking skills which led them to make healthy choices.

I am a feminist, but I do not paint porn with a broad swath of condemnation. I don't particularly care for it and don't watch it, anymore, but there are some fine pieces of work being done by women, for women.


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Subject: RE: OBIT: Linda Boreman aka Linda Lovelace
From: GUEST,jonesey
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 03:40 PM

right on, greg! lol


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Subject: RE: OBIT: Linda Boreman aka Linda Lovelace
From: mack/misophist
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 03:56 PM

To me, the interesting thing is that our local paper ran an obituary on her about 10 years ago. Will the real Linda please stand up?

By the way, the Ivory Snow woman, whatever her name was, married the same guy who was married to Lovelace; she said he wasn't violent. And she said that AFTER the divorce.


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Subject: RE: OBIT: Linda Boreman aka Linda Lovelace
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 04:09 PM

Ain't nothing wrong with a good porn flick...

If someone is making it because they're forced, or hooked and needing $$, then there's a problem, but the problem isn't with the porn...

For every negative case where porn might be a factor, there are I'll bet, hundreds of thousands or millions of cases where porn is a factor in a positive...

Child abuse, in any and all it's forms, is NOT to be tolerated!


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Subject: RE: OBIT: Linda Boreman aka Linda Lovelace
From: SharonA
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 04:11 PM

Jonesey: I'm not sure which quotes you're referring to. I was working from the statement in the obit that said, "Boreman claimed her first husband forced her into pornography at gunpoint. They divorced in 1973. Their relationship disintegrated into a life of violence, rape, prostitution and pornography, according to her 1980 autobiography, 'Ordeal,' and her testimony before congressional committees investigating pornography." Violence, rape, prostitution and being forced at gunpoint to do anything fit my definition of "wrongdoing" – and the criminal justice system's definition as well!

I have not read "Ordeal" so I don't know how reasonable or unreasonable it is to doubt her account. I don't know about the physical evidence of abuse about which Linn speaks, or whether it's been documented independently. I'm sure that, as you say, Linda's first husband's account would paint him in a more favorable light than her account did.

But anyone who's ever been in an abusive relationship will tell you that 'unloading the asshole' is not something one can do freely; an abusive person controls others through fear, and the abused needs to act in spite of that fear (including, in some cases, fear for one's life) to break away from the relationship. Even if (s)he manages to do so, revenge by the abuser is a very real possibility, so the abused must be prepared to live in fear for a very long time even if the asshole is 'unloaded'. So "free" depends on the perspective of the abused, not yours or mine.

I agree with you that "character is defined by one's actions over a period of time." Note that, over a period of time, Linda did 'unload' her first husband (according to the obit, the year after "Deep Throat" came out), had a second marriage that lasted 22 years and had two kids by that second husband. Perhaps for some people that would have been enough, but she felt compelled to "capitalize on her celebrity for a cause" and, unlike you, I have no problem with her working for a cause whether she's a celebrity or not. Working for a cause one thinks is beneficial to humanity is not a bad character trait, and I don't think she should be villified for having done so simply because she was not anonymous.

Sharon

P.S. to Spaw – By the way, I do not have any kids. I applaud you, Spaw, for creating the relationship with your kids that you describe. Too few parents talk with their kids about what they'll be exposed to out in the world, nor do those parents pay any mind to what their kids will be exposed to in their own homes.


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Subject: RE: OBIT: Linda Boreman aka Linda Lovelace
From: SharonA
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 04:21 PM

misophist: That was Marilyn Chambers, of "Behind the Green Door" fame. i wasn't aware that she'd married Linda Lovelace's first husband. Wonder why Chambers divorced him.


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Subject: RE: OBIT: Linda Boreman aka Linda Lovelace
From: kendall
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 04:35 PM

Judge not... that phrase, "fallen woman" is interesting; if a woman is doing what men do without being condemned, she is "fallen" what does that say about us?


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Subject: RE: OBIT: Linda Boreman aka Linda Lovelace
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 05:05 PM

Prone, Kendall. :)


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Subject: RE: OBIT: Linda Boreman aka Linda Lovelace
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 05:19 PM

Couldnt agree more kendall. It wasnt me who usedthe phrase to describe her, though. What didyou mean exactly, SharonA?


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Subject: RE: OBIT: Linda Boreman aka Linda Lovelace
From: SharonA
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 05:20 PM

Greg: It's my understanding that the admittedly archaic term "fallen woman" refers to a hooker, and Linda Lovelace contended that her first husband forced her into prostitution (among his other dastardly deeds). I don't suppose that anyone outside the Christian church uses the term as a matter of course anymore. I used it in order to contrast with the "rising above" phrase.

"Help, I'm 'fallen' and I can't get up!"


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Subject: RE: OBIT: Linda Boreman aka Linda Lovelace
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 05:27 PM

there is good reason to believe that Linda was abused, threatened, intimidated..etc....much as many prostitutes are.

Theoretically, a woman should be able to just say 'no' and leave a situation like that, but human nature being what it is, it just don't work like that. I don't suppose Linda was the best example of humanity, but neither was her husband.

As to **porn**...it, like music, comes in MANY forms and with many issues and purveyors with many motivations. I have seen 'beautiful' erotica, and I have seen stupid, ugly crap using approximately the same combination of bodies and people...

you pays yer money, you takes yer choice.....no way to paint it all the same.


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Subject: RE: OBIT: Linda Boreman aka Linda Lovelace
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 05:35 PM

Thanks Sharon, I'll take that. But I do think it's a term you need to be very careful of, as if you use it you sound as if you share the opinions of those who created the term for not very attractive reasons. It didn't just mean "fallen down and needing to get up" you know, it carries some very critical and sexist baggage with it.


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Subject: RE: OBIT: Linda Boreman aka Linda Lovelace
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 05:48 PM

We've managed to incorporate a load of issues here haven't we?

The abusive relationship situation is full of very intricate psychological patterns........But anyone who believes the abused can simply walk away has never worked with or known people in that circumstance. A rather notorious case here resulted not only in the continued abuse of the woman, but also in the death of a 3 year old. Both husband and wife participated in killing the child......she out of fear for her own life.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: OBIT: Linda Boreman aka Linda Lovelace
From: SharonA
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 06:06 PM

Greg: I'm fully aware of the critical and sexist baggage that comes with the term 'fallen woman' (maybe you noticed some of it going by in some of the comments on this thread!), and I used the term very purposefully. At one time Linda Lovelace was a prostitute and a porn star. That sort of existence leaves one open to a great deal of criticism and to sexist remarks.

I was also very purposeful in my use of the term "she rose above her circumstances". She got herself out of an abusive relationship, out of prostitution, out of the porn industry – any of which would require great strength of purpose and great desire to improve one's lot, and put together is IMO a monumental achievement for any person who started out his or her adult life the way Linda Boreman had. She did not die a 'fallen woman'.


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Subject: RE: OBIT: Linda Boreman aka Linda Lovelace
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 06:21 PM

No, and I don't think she lived as one either.Look, de mortuis nil nisi bonum, and all that. Everybody's hung up nowadays on wringing the last drops of interest out of the personal live,political opinions, family connections blahblah blah, of famous people. Let us confine ourselves to saluting their achievements. "LINDA LOVELACE: SHE MADE A SEMINAL MOVIE RIP"


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Subject: RE: OBIT: Linda Boreman aka Linda Lovelace
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 06:31 PM

Greg, your lack of taste never ceases to amaze me. Wait a minute, I am getting sucked into this myself!


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Subject: RE: OBIT: Linda Boreman aka Linda Lovelace
From: SharonA
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 07:18 PM

de mortuis nil nisi bonum? I have no idea what that means. "From the dead, no knee bones"? ...no, that can't be it.

The thing is, I guess we have differing ideas about what Linda Boreman's achievements are. My view is that her post-porn-star life is an achievement, and that's what I choose to salute.


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Subject: RE: OBIT: Linda Boreman aka Linda Lovelace
From: pict
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 07:20 PM

In Denmark where they're very relaxed about porn there are often hardcore porn magazines mixed in with the daily papers but the kids learn to ignore it and a group of youngsters when asked recently on television what they thought of porn,they to a man said that they knew that porn was not real life and that real relationships are much different from porn scenarios.

In some ways I feel that porn stokes the desire for more extreme sex and creates a desire for perversions as an American Indian once said"twisting love to get at the sex of it" or as Ozzy Osbourne said"degradation being eaten by lust".

On the other hand I'm sure that it is also a useful release for a lot of people and many people enjoy it and I'm not really sure if the cons outweigh the pros censorship is a very sharp razor and you have to be careful what and where you cut with it.


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Subject: RE: OBIT: Linda Boreman aka Linda Lovelace
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 07:47 PM

Loreena Bobbitt was careful where she cut with it alright..........

Spaw


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Subject: RE: OBIT: Linda Boreman aka Linda Lovelace
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 07:48 PM

It didn't just mean "fallen down and needing to get up"

Well, in a way that's just what it would have meant - a special case of the use of the term "fallen" in the context of sin generally. Most of which wouldn't have anything to do with sex (Seven Deadly Sins, and only one having to do with sex.)


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Subject: RE: OBIT: Linda Boreman aka Linda Lovelace
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 09:04 PM

mcgrath I think you're being naive . I've seen the phrase "fallen woman" a lot in books(and even once or twice in ordinary speech) and its always been perfectly clear which "sin" ws being talked about, It meant " a woman who'd had sex outside of wedlock" or "woman who'd have sex for money". And it implied condemnation by right-thinking people (unless used ironically). It might have implied pity as well, but condemnation was always there. It didnt have anything to do with Pride or Sloth or Greed or any other sin; and you didn't hear about "fallen men". And nothing to do with "Adam's fall", and absolutely nothing to do with people needing a bit of a hand-up from afriend because they've got a bit low.


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Subject: RE: OBIT: Linda Boreman aka Linda Lovelace
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 09:54 PM

Having seen her in a few interviews over the years, she seemed quite genuine enough. In addition to whatever hells she suffered from having been in that film, I believe I read that she was also at one point battling cancer. Whatever anyone may have thought of her (then or since), she had more than her share of trials and tears.

I think perhaps a simple "Rest in Peace" for this lady is in order.


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Subject: RE: OBIT: Linda Boreman aka Linda Lovelace
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 09:55 PM

"Fallen" may have been applied primarily to prostitutes, but had a wider application, like "scarlet". The term brings to mind Michael Arlen's sensational bestseller, The Green Hat, published circa 1924, reprinted dozens of times in the next few years, and then forgotten. (It became a silent movie, A Woman of Affairs, starring Greta Garbo, but with the story ludicrously bowdlerised.)

In suggesting that a "fallen woman" (based loosely on Nancy Cunard, incidentally) could be noble and heroic, the book was way ahead of its time, in the same way that people who think it's easy to walk away from an abusive relationship are way ahead of their time. (Remember Ike & Tina, and "What's love got to do with it?")

As for Linda, I had no problem going along with everything in that CNN report, including the detail that she was paid nothing for a film that grossed millions.


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Subject: RE: OBIT: Linda Boreman aka Linda Lovelace
From: Terry K
Date: 24 Apr 02 - 04:44 AM

So who will admit to having worn the T-shirt "I choked Linda Lovelace"


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Subject: RE: OBIT: Linda Boreman aka Linda Lovelace
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 24 Apr 02 - 12:01 PM

That tee shirt would have made a great title for a really bad circa 1975 hard rock song. Neil


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Subject: RE: OBIT: Linda Boreman aka Linda Lovelace
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 24 Apr 02 - 03:09 PM

Didn't David Allen Coe write a song, "I made Linda Lovelace Gag" when he was doing time?

;-)


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Subject: RE: OBIT: Linda Boreman aka Linda Lovelace
From: SharonA
Date: 24 Apr 02 - 08:48 PM

Back to the "fallen woman" thing for a moment: I explained this to Greg in a PM but I think I should post it here, too, for our non-American friends who might not have understood my quip, "Help! I'm 'fallen' and I can't get up!" It was meant as a joke (the origins of which I'll explain below) and was not an indication that I thought "fallen woman" had anything to do with "people needing a bit of a hand-up from a friend because they've got a bit low", as Greg puts it.

It's actually a bit of a pun on the phrase "Help! I've fallen and I can't get up" which has been a running joke in the US for several years now. It stems from a poorly-acted TV advertisement for a product that didn't work: a button that one was supposed to wear on one's person. When the button was pushed, the wearer was to speak aloud, and supposedly the message would be heard by an operator who would alert medical personnel to come to the person's rescue. The elderly actress in the commercial, who spoke that line, overplayed her predicament so thoroughly – and the device was so obviously phony – that the commercial was parodied over and over, ad nauseum. Nowadays, "I've fallen and I can't get up" has become a part of our popular culture. So I attempted to make a poor joke by making a pun out of a poor joke. Shameful, I know, but there it is. Usually I'm better-behaved than that!

But I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that the origins of the phrase "fallen woman" did indeed have to do with Adam's (and Eve's) Fall. I'll have to check that out! Again, in my original use of the phrase on 23-Apr-02, 12:13 PM, I was referring to Lovelace's days as a prostitute as well as to the wider definition of "scarlet" that Fionn mentions. And again, I recognize and salute the fact that she got out of the prostitution-and-porn business, got out of the abusive relationship she had been in, changed her behavior and worked to help keep other young women from being forced into the sort of life she'd once lived.

Rest in peace, Linda Boreman.


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Subject: RE: OBIT: Linda Boreman aka Linda Lovelace
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 08:39 AM

The popular entertainment industry chooses to promote violence over sex. Perhaps they would say that they are forced to do so by restrictive measures such as ratings. There are many examples of movies with adult themes in which there may be an obligatory nod to the character's sex life, but the main focus is on the character's violent tendencies ("Dirty Harry" comes to mind).

Yet in a real life situation, which scenario would have the least damaging impact on an impressionable child's psyche: seeing two people trying to murder each other, or seeing two people having sex with each other? One is life threatening, the other life promoting.

So why is depicted violence, even the graphical stuff, given an R rating, but any movie in which genitalia are shown in an aroused state, or detailed acts of sex, is given the box office death penalty of X?

Hmmm....


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Subject: RE: OBIT: Linda Boreman aka Linda Lovelace
From: pict
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 03:20 PM

I just saw a teen program where a young woman was discussing her life as a porn model she said that she was going to use her body for as long as she could to save up enough money so that she would never have to work again and could retire at a very young age I think the morality of the past is well and truly in the past.This woman wasn't some abused,frightened,junky she was a fit,healthy,and attractive young woman using her physical attractiveness to create a comfortable life for herself and she seemed to think that porn was a perfectly legitimate way to make a living.


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Subject: RE: OBIT: Linda Boreman aka Linda Lovelace
From: SharonA
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 05:41 PM

pict: I'm interested to learn what sort of teen program that was. Was it an entertainment show for teens, or was it a documentary or investigative program? Was this young woman portrayed as having "a perfectly legitimate way to make a living", or was she depicted as someone who was naive about what sort of life she would eventually have either before or after her early retirement? In what context was this interview presented?

Now, she may have looked fit and healthy, but that doesn't necessarily mean that she's not being abused with threats of physical violence, nor does it mean that she's not frightened to talk on-camera about the disadvantages of her lifestyle, nor does it mean that she's not addicted to drugs or some other substances (nor does it mean she isn't already HIV-positive!).

I have to wonder what she would say if she were interviewed again in the future, say at age 53 (assuming she lives that long). Certainly, some porn models "use their bodies" and manage their careers well and make it to the top of their profession. But the worrisome thing is that too many young girls who want to emulate them are promised a get-rich-quick lifestyle by unscrupulous people who then lock them into a lifestyle that makes others rich while the girls get little or nothing, and the girls' bodies are used until they're used up and discarded.

Of course, there's nothing new about that scenario, so I'm not sure what you mean by "the morality of the past". Yes, there is less strict censorship on TV and people speak more freely on these issues than they used to, and there are more types of pornography media than there used to be (internet, video, DVD and so forth), but your example is of a young person reciting very old and well-worn rhetoric.


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Subject: RE: OBIT: Linda Boreman aka Linda Lovelace
From: pict
Date: 26 Apr 02 - 02:52 PM

The program is called Boogie it is a teen interest program on at about 4pm-5pm,with live interviews with Boy/Girl bands etc lots of music videos and sms requests,competitions,computergame and dvd reviews with a couple of youngish gregarious presenters it seems to be aimed at 12-16 year olds.

The young porn model was totally relaxed and I really sincerely doubt that she was in any fear she was depicted as a reasonably mature and intelligent female who had made the decision to make a living from her body and wasn't in the slighest bit embarrassed by this,the thing is porn in Denmark is not regarded as being dirty or immoral by the majority of the population so a career in porn will not bring shame to the family of a person involved in it as it would in say Scotland or Ireland(both countries that have a fairly christian and conservative view of morality and sex though that is obviously changing).

Of course this woman might have been hiv positive and on drugs but then again so could the presenters or the popstars,she certainly seemed perfectly lucid whereas most drug users are not.The fact of the matter is that in Denmark they have a far more relaxed attitude towards sex it is seen as a perfectly natural act and there doesn't seem to be much if any shame attached to making money off it.

When I talk about the morality of the past I'm talking about the religious,somewhat puritan,christian idea of morality that was widespread not that long ago over most of Europe or the stiff,proper,Victorian idea of morality which once dominated peoples lives in the British Isles.

I'm not saying I agree with this young woman in fact I don't like the fact that there was no mention of,or questions asked about,possible negative effects of being involved in the porn business.The point really is though that the porn business is gaining a legitimacy that formerly it didn't have.Is that because of a changing view of morality or not?I think it is,and that change has come about because people are making their own minds up about morality where before they relied on the church to be the guide as to what was right and wrong.


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