Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?

Subject: Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: Jim Krause
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 01:46 PM

Ispired by my previous thread about the rut old-time music may or may not be in, I am beginning this one. A little background may be necessary.

I play music with and jam with many talented old-time musicians. The guitarists seem to be willing to play jigs. The banjo players however are a different matter altogether. They seem positively alergic to jigs. This seems rather strange to me for two reasons:

1. Jigs are among the oldest tunes in the Anglo-Celtic tradition.
2. The midwest has a great traditional repertoire of jigs. I submit in support of my contention two collections fo fiddle tunes. One by R.P. Christesson, and the other by Marian Thede.

Now why on earth would clawhammer banjo players be alergic to jigs? The minstrels in the 19^th century, who after all helped acquaint audiences with the stroke style of banjo playing played everything including jigs, polkas, schottisches, hornpipes, and reels, as well as some very interesting song accompaniments.

But listen to the new crop of southern old-time fiddlers, and there's hardly a jig to be found. They seem to leave the jig repertoire up to the New England, Nova Scotia, and Irish fiddlers. I solicit comments and speculations especially from the clawhammer style banjo fraternity, and old-time music enthusiasts generally.
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: Sorcha
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 02:42 PM

I do. Play quite a few of them. Banjo players don't object. Maybe I have them on the run........

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: Jim Krause
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 02:51 PM

Maybe you do. I have tried playing jigs clawhammer style, and it does work. True confessions though: I think it is easier to play jigs on the fiddle than the banjo. But then, I'm a little out of practice on the banjo, too.
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: kendall
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 03:28 PM

I often hang out with country and bluegrass pickers, and, it seems to me that 6/8 time is not easy with a pick. Naturally, they wont stoop to finger picking!

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: GUEST,Arkie
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 04:21 PM

In the Arkansas Ozarks the fiddlers play jigs all the time. The dancers refer to their individual step dances as jigs and themselves as jig dancers. This will no doubt be confusing to folk from outside the area since the jigs are actually conventional hoedowns played with a 2/4 or 4/4 rhythm. I have been in this area about 30 years and spent a lot of time listening to fiddlers. I have seen only one play what most folks would call a jig and the tune he played was Irish Washerwoman. Something he would do on a rare occasion.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 05:43 PM

I play old time banjo, clawhammer/frailing (I use the terms interchangeably). I am an average player, nothing special.

There are lots of variations but the basic clawhammer styles seems to presuppose 2 or 4 beat units.

Jigs and other tunes based upon 3 beat units are doable. The problem is that modifying a 2 beat style to deal with 3 beat units is not no-brainer for someone like me. Whenever I try it, I don't like the way the banjo sounds. And it doesn't feel "right" either.

Thus, I am never tempted to call for a jig. The fiddlers I jam with don't play many jigs so I don't have much incentive to develop a clawhammer style for jigs.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 06:51 PM

Jim, and Russ - I agree with both of you. It's easier to play jigs on fiddle than banjo. For guitar and mandolin it seems to be no big deal.

But they don't come easy (for me) even on fiddle. I don't know why. I have noticed that one of the better old timey fiddlers around here doesn't do all that many jigs either, and seems a bit uncomfortable with them, even though he is great at 2/4 & 4/4 tunes. I suspect it has to do with bowing rhythm ?? Plus, there aren't many people around here who actually dance jigs, so they're played as more of a novelty, or Celtic homage, like Irish Washerwoman.

I don't even try to do jigs clawhammer style on a banjo. They are do-able, however, in 3-finger style as a sort of roll.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 07:10 PM

Les, I guess that may be the case with the 5 string styles of playing. As with the mandolin, 6/8 is easy on the tenor banjo. Is the tenor ever used in old-time playing?

I don't know much about old time playing but I'd imagine it often involves fiddles and 5 string banjos playing together. If 6/8 is hard for the banjo players and the music is essentailly social music for alll to play along to, it could have an effect of limiting the repertoire for all involved.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: Charcloth
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 07:44 PM

I am a Clawhammer banjo player & I LOVE to play jigs. Although I play guitar & bouzouki I much rather play them on 5 string clawhammer banjo. Give a listen to Ken Perlman & he does some nice jigs clawhammer style.
I don't know why some folks avoid jigs. I think it is mostly because there is little out there that leads a beginning banjo player to give it a go. Perlman's "Basic Clawhammer Banjo" book & tape is about the only one that I know of & doesn't really explain it to folks who have trouble comprhending 6/8 time. His set also is not geared for beginners.
I learned my first jig from Russ Barenburg's guitar tutoring material on Homespun tapes. He didn't really explain it in depth but it did help me get a grasp on the concepts of jigs. From there it sorta flowed over to my banjo.
I do know that Tony Sullivan says that if you want to play jigs you should use a tenor banjo & not the 5 string ( He says this in his book "the five string or G banjo") He mentions tuning changes & such, but that is common for me anyway. That's why I use two 5 strings. I keep them tuned differently. Makes my shows flow better
Charcloth

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: GUEST,Al
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 08:17 PM

I am an old time fiddler. I have been for about 30 years. I only know two jigs, and just learned them recently. I find them difficult. My bow just doesn't want to move that way. Left hand doesn't seem to be a problem. Also, jigs are very linear, one note right after another, and I don't fiddle that way. This is an interesting question you pose. I find that those fiddlers who do play jigs easily tend to be the former classical violinits-turned-fiddlers, who normally think very linearly. I am just starting to get the idea that if I slur notes between strings (don't change bow directions when changing strings) the bowing gets a lot easier. I do like them, and hope to be able to get it eventually. Al

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: Les B
Date: 26 Apr 02 - 12:45 AM

Jon - generally American old-time country string bands use 5-string banjos. The Tenor(or is it plectrum?) seems to be used in jazz & ragtime bands.

The 5-strings were played in a variety of clawhammer/frailing styles until Earl Scruggs came along and introduced 3-finger picking. That's not to say that there weren't some tenor players in country, just not very common.

Charcloth - what tuning/s do you use for 6/8 clawhammer, and what are some of the jigs you play? I want to experiment.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 26 Apr 02 - 01:19 AM

There was plenty of 2- and 3-finger picking of 5-string banjos before Earl Scruggs! (Though not "Scruggs-style", of course.) People played 5-strings in any way that came to them. (Aside from the whole parlor classical scene.) It seems that playing styles went through a bit of a bottleneck during the revival, but things are becoming somewhat more varied nowadays, in search of both old and new ways of playing, c.f. the interest in jigs... ;-)

There's also the theory that southern old-time playing is more based in the Scottish than the Irish tradition, thus reels rather than jigs... I'm personally no scholar in that line.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 26 Apr 02 - 09:29 AM

Charcloth,
If I could play like Ken Perlman I'd love jigs and think they were easy.
Unfortunately for an average clawhammer banjo player like me, emulating Ken would require that I relearn the banjo.
I've watched him play up close and doing what he does is not just a matter of taking what I can already do on the banjo and making a few minor modifications on an as needed basis.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 26 Apr 02 - 09:45 AM

Thanks Les. The tenor banjo has very much found itself a nice little niche in Irish and other dance music. I have on the rare occasion tried sitting in with old time players and I think the tenor can fit (whether the othe players would agree is a differnt matter), although obviously quite differecnt to the 5 string styles. I was just curious to know if any old time groups ever used one.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: GUEST,Chip A.
Date: 26 Apr 02 - 10:24 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: Sorcha
Date: 26 Apr 02 - 10:26 AM

Our group is so weird.....we have both a 5 string and a tenor, although sometimes the tenor player also brings a 5 string. Neither do clawhammer style. I have heard that there are "jiggy" fiddlers and "hornpipy" fiddlers....might be true, because I seem to be able to "hornpipe" almost anything. Al's comment about "classicists turned fiddleers" may be somewhat true. I am one of those.....but I don't know about the "linear thinking" bit! (GRIN)

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: Kim C
Date: 26 Apr 02 - 10:29 AM

They do around here. :-) I guess it just depends on who's playing.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: GUEST,Chip A.
Date: 26 Apr 02 - 10:48 AM

Jigs are difficult for a calwhammer or 2 finger banjo picker. The basic patterns are not suited to 6/8 time at all. Clawhammer pickers get the downbeat with the finger, not the thumb. ONE two three, FOUR five six requires that you get every other downbeat with your thumb! You can skip notes or get some with hammers, pulls, slides etc. to keep yourself on a finger lead but this can be kinda hard on the melody. Ken Perlman (and Charcloth too, I'll bet)is proof that it can be done very well indeed. But it ain't easy and requires tricks that aren't really part of the basic clawhammer/two finger kit. The other problem with most jigs is that they are very "notey" and a faithful playing of the melody requires a linear, melodic style of playing. Hardly the traditional sound most associated with early banjo.

I'm not a fiddler but I suspect the bowings needed for jigs present some of the same problems.

I was very fortunate to get to play in a couple of jams with Mr Perlman 2 weeks ago when he was at John Campbell Folk School. He is a master at melodic playing and jig time seemed effortless for him. I do hope to master 6/8 time one day.

Chip A.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: Leeder
Date: 26 Apr 02 - 11:27 AM

I asume we're talking *American* old-time fiddle here. Nobody seems to have thought to specify.

As others have said, it is possible to play 6/8 tunes in clawhammer banjo style, but it isn't done much, because it means re-educating the right hand to modify the stroke. Also, some tunes work better than others, and it's possible to start with a difficult tune, get discouraged and not pursue it. Also, am I right in assuming that jig tunes aren't really in the traditional Appalachian repertoire, so old-time players aren't much motivated to learn them?

Some other traditions don't play 6/8 time either -- I'm told this is true of mainstream Quebec outsid- of Gaspé. This is second hand information -- can anyone corroborate it?

I seem to recall a previous thread on this topic; can someone who knows how find it and blue-click it?

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 26 Apr 02 - 12:47 PM

Desert Dancer - you're absolutely right, there were plenty of 2 & 3 finger styles before Scruggs, and I meant to add that to the clawhammer comment but let my brain get ahead of my fingers.

For some reason banjos are hard to hear on the old timey records - the fiddle and guitar (and once in a while harmonica) seem to get placed in the foreground. And it's hard to figure out what they're doing. Only once in a while can you hear Charlie Poole's banjo out front, and he was considered one of the better pickers of his era. When you do hear him, its almost like he was playing with a flat pick (sometimes), who knows ???

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: Charcloth
Date: 26 Apr 02 - 01:54 PM

A few simple jigs I do are "Haste to the Wedding" (pretty much Perlman's version in his Basic Clawhammer book I do this one in the key of D on a double C tuned banjo (capo 2) "Road to Lisdoonvarna" also in Perlman's book. done on the banjo tuned to G & "Kesh Jig" also done on a G tuned banjo.
I think you have to re-educate but not relearn the right hand. You must use alot of pull offs & slides & such. But I still maintain that the primary reason jigs aren't done on a five string is because they just are not introduced at all to beginner banjo players.
I consider myself only a fair clawhammer player, not even close to Perlman's level. So saying that jigs are too difficult is a cop out (in my opinion.) Check out any banjo tutuoring book (or even any flat pick-guitar book) And you will not find jigs untill well into the intermediate level. Most people who play around don't ever progress that far in their learning material. The Russ Barenburg guitar material that I learned my first jig from is at Homespun's Level 3. So unless your education has been intirely Irish you just are introduced to jigs later than I think is proper.
Just my opinion Charcloth

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: Charcloth
Date: 27 Apr 02 - 10:56 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 28 Apr 02 - 04:01 AM

It's not just old-time fiddlers. Go to any Irish session and see how reels pre-dominate. I played for a St Andrew's night ceilidh once and had Sean Casey in my band. He admitted to not having played jigs for years and was surprised at how may we used. Not that he couldn't play them -it's just that he didn't think to play them.

Think of pop and rock as well - most music there is in double time rather than triple.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 28 Apr 02 - 10:23 AM

Charcloth,

It sounds as if we come from two really different worlds.

"Check out any banjo tutoring book...And you will not find jigs until well into the intermediate level. So unless your education has been intirely Irish you just are introduced to jigs later than I think is proper."

This does not come close to describing the experience of the average American old time banjo player (like me). None of us approached banjo systematically in that way.

For one thing, it wasn't possible.

Admittedly, many boomers (myself included) started with a book, often Pete Seeger's.

But our goal was NOT to master the banjo in all its aspects. We just wanted to play like Pete (or Mike, or Peggy, etc.)

We just wanted to learn enough to be able to play for square dances and jam with other old time musicians. Once we got to the point where we didn't make fools of ourselves in a campground jam we stopped, as far as technique was concerned.

Even if the book covered different styles and traditions, and even if we worked our way more or less faithfully through the entire book, we tended to focus on whatever and however everyone else was playing. And in those days (and today) it wasn't jigs.

A fortunate few boomers learned sitting knee to knee with some of the deities of the old time banjo pantheon--Kyle Creed, Wade Ward, etc. They had even more of an incentive to focus. And their role models didn't play jigs either.

NOTE: I am aware of all the exceptions to the following generalizations but I am going to make them anyway.

The real reason American old time banjo players do what they do is that in American old time music the banjo is a backup instrument, not a lead instrument. Banjo players don't lead tunes, they don't start tunes, and they rarely even call for tunes in a jam. The banjo players are slaves to the fiddlers and their repertoire. Which is OK with us. So, if American old time banjo players don't play jigs, it is basically because American old time fiddlers don't (and didn't) play jigs.

We banjo players are happy with that situation because jigs are hard for us to play. It also means we have very little incentive to learn to play jigs. If I took the time and energy to learn some of Ken's jigs what could I do with them?

Which leads to the another point. Ordinarily, for an old time banjo player, playing means playing in an ensemble of other old time players, whether in a jam at Clifftop, or in a little amateur band at home, or a pickup band for a local square dance.

Unless I am in a band and the fiddler likes jigs or I like jigs and can talk the fiddler into learning some, the only thing I can do with my hard earned jigs is play them solo in the privacy of my living room. Or in a jam with Ken at the next Maryland Banjo Academy.

Not much incentive there.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 28 Apr 02 - 05:09 PM

This whole thread is really fascinating. I'd never given any thought to the possibility of playing a jig clawhammer style. Standard clawhammer rhythm goes bump-diddy or if you're double thumbing, bump-a-diddy, most often in 2/4 time. Jig time goes da-da-da da-da-da and, while I've not spent much time studying clawhammer banjo, it's not immediately apparant to me how one might approach 6/8 time playing clawhammer style.

Won't one of you please start a tutorial thread—or add to one of the existing tutorial threads—instructing us how we might play jigs clawhammer style. Give some right hand techniques and exercises and maybe a short tab or two to help us sort it out.

Thanks,

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: Charcloth
Date: 28 Apr 02 - 09:59 PM

Guest Russ, I agree with all that you have said which renforces what I believe, jigs just aren't taught in most banjo tutorals. I learned form Eric Muller & Barbara Koehler's book "Frailing the Five String Banjo" there is not a single jig there. But in the old days (minstrel banjo days) Jigs were quite common. Check out "Ryan's Mammoth Collection 1050 reels & Jigs" (fiddle tunes) printed originaly about 1880 & it is chock full of jigs.
Muller & Koehler's book does have a few numbers with triplets & these are the foundation for doing double jigs. to get the 6/8 time I count as follows
"One", "&", "a", "Two", "&", "a", "One", "&", "a", "Two", "&", "a", etc. I emphasize the "one", "two" beats with the downward plucking of my index finger. On the "&" I get these either by drop thumb, pull off slide, or hammer-on. The "a" beat is done with the plucking of my index finger also, but not as strong as the "one" or "two" beats.
So what you have here is two index finger pluckings next to each other.
put another way Count "One" (index finger); count "&" ( drop thumb); count "a" (index finger); Count "two" (index finger); count "&" (drop thumb); count "a" (index finger) repeat
I set my metronome for about 100 BPM at my playing speed. This is a little slower than the likes of Altan. But I think is more of a danceable speed for the common folks.
I do hope this helps, Charcloth

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: greg stephens
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 08:55 AM

I agree with GUEST Russ that the bajo-playing problems are a bit of a side issue.The thing that needs explaining is why did the fiddlers stop playing jigs. All fiddlers (English scottish irish or welsh) going to america pre 1900 will have been carrying loads of jigs, American dance bands in the same period were playing jigs, yet by the time we get to the recording heyday of old time folkmusic the jig does seem to have largely vanished from mainstream american folk music. But everybody still knew old English favourites like Soldiers Joy. Where did the jigs go? It cant just be the lack of dancers, loads of people play jigs for pleaure on this (east) side of the atlantic, whether they ever play for dancing or not.I can't think of a reason, it's abit of a mystery.One element I can think of: as a guitarist, I know its more difficult to develop a driving accompaniment in jigtime. Perhaps the fiddlers did find they werent getting the support they would like from the banjo and guitarplayers who were becming important in the bands.at the time. It's notable,also, that in english and irish circles nowadays its easier towhip up a storm in reel/polka time. Jigs and hornpipes are more reflective. If you want to make an instant impression on a drunken pub fullof people, or a roving record company researcher, you'll go for the reel, everytime.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: GUEST,Chip A.
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 09:52 AM

The question was why do fiddlers not play jigs. I hope those with a more complete knowledge of our musical history than I have will jump in here and provide enlightenment. I'd like to know more. Meanwhile, I can add only that in my area of the Ga. mountains I never heard an old timer play in 6/8 time. They did play waltzes. The banjo pickers were usually hard pressed in 3/4 time but they tried because people wanted to play and hear and dance waltzes. So with jigs, which was missing? The dancers or the fiddlers?

Charcloth, How on earth do you get two licks in a row with the same finger at 100 b.p.m.? I would think it'd be easier to do a sort of (index), (slide, pull, hammer or whatever), (Thumb) and repeat. Two short beats in a row with the same finger (or the thumb) is hard to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 10:00 AM

Greg Stephens,

I too am a little mystified with the dearth of jigs in the American old time music scene of the 20th century (AOTMSOTTC).

I respectfully disagree that "it can't be for the lack of dancers" at least as far as the AOTMSOTTC is concerned.

For as long as I can remember (a few decades), dancing in the AOTMSOTTC has meant square dancing and contradancing. When nonprofessional old time musicians are doing something other than jamming, they are playing for square or contadances. I've never run into a tune or a dance other than a waltz based on units of three at either type of dance. The only people I've ever seen dancing to non-waltz music based on 3 are Irish (Arsh in Appalachia) dancers and it is always in a performance setting. I know very little about dancing outside the southern mountains of the US. For example, do a bunch of Irish dancers ever get together in an informal, nonperforming setting with a pickup band and dance as a group for fun? If so, would they dance jigs?

Also, in the AOTMSOTTC the music is/has become/has usually been (there's been a some debate about this in places like Fiddle-L)very highly syncopated. As was mentioned in this thread and as I've noticed myself jigs seem to require a pretty straightforward rhythm. If once is used to syncopation this makes jigs a little less fun/interesting/exciting to play. Not to mention more difficult.

To be blunt, if people in the AOTMSOTTC aren't playing jigs, it's because there's no market for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 10:04 AM

Charcloth,

I just reread your last post and was struck by the penultimate sentece. Do you actually play jigs for live dancers? With a banjo? Sober?

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 10:13 AM

dancing in england (well, country dancing) is done to jigs all the time> And musicians in the british isles can all play naturally in 6/8 time(though classically trained fiddlers can have difficulties getting a good rhythm using the traditional jig bowing). kids always skip round the playground with their feet going naturally in 6/8. It's very exhilarating dancing to jigs. It's also very exhilarating watching people dancing to jigs, as any barn dance musician will tell you. to put the matter delicately, the skip step people do to jigs induces a certain unique bounce in the female anatomy. Maybe it was American puritans who stopped the fiddlers playing jigs??

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: GUEST,Chip A.
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 10:35 AM

Okay, what's a AOTMSOTTC?

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 11:27 AM

I've been wondering, too. I've got as far as Any Old Tune, Mate, So One Two Three, Crash!! Might be wrong, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 11:47 AM

Greg & Chip,

AOTMSOTTC is my "clever" attempt at a homemade acronym for "American old time music scene of the 20th century."

It's in the second line of my post dated Date: 29-Apr-02 - 10:00 AM.

Oh well, I thought it was cute.

Greg,

Well there you have it. There is obviously a significant demand for jigs in England that is not found in the states. Are there English frailing/clawhammering banjo players who help provide live music to accompany the country dancers when they jig?

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 12:01 PM

I occasionally dep with Steamhead, whose banjo player Malcolm Webster plays 5-string banjo, and. unusually, sometimes flat picks it. And now I come to think of it he often fingerpicks 4/4 tunes, but always uses the flatpick on jigs. I've never thought about this till I read this thread. That certainly supports the theory that finger picking banjo doesnt suit jigs. i must ask Malcolm when I see him.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: Sorcha
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 12:18 PM

Don't know if it will help banjo players, but it helps me to think 1/2/3--1/2/3 instead of 1/2/3/4/5/6/.....sorta like a very fast waltz with the emphasis on the 1 beat every time.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 12:45 PM

In most of the contra dances I've played for there is almost no call for jigs of any type, simply because the rhythm does lend itself to a line type of dance. However, in jams, etc. most of the local fidders lay the wood to them and our local banjoists have no problem in joining in. I play a long neck, using a pre-Scruggs three finger style that works well for jigs, reels and waltzes, but I have noticed that the bluegrass types have a problem with anything other than straight ahead 4/4.

Tenor or Irish banjos are often played by fiddlers and mandolin players, and are always welcome at any contra dance, but that does not seems to be true for bluegrass sessions (most folks revert to fiddle or mando in those situations).

I suspect the lack of jigs is also a bit regionally oriented, since they tend to be very popular in West Virginia, with its large Irish immigrant population, and less so in the "Deep South". The Appalachian history of this area lends itself to the retention of English, Irish, and Scots music that may not retain all of the ornamentation or rhythmic complexity of the original pieces, but often the process has added new or regional interpretations of those pieces. I also suspect that the retained ability to dance to a jig, even in the "sean nos" style, may contribute to their popularity and retention.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 01:25 PM

can someone explain what goes on at an American contradace evening? I'd always sort of imagined it would be like English country/barn/ceilidh dancing, but jigs are used all the time for this sort of thing, the parallel lines and square dances. what's the difference with American contra dances, if jigs arent suitable your side of the pond now? Old American dance and tune books seem to be full of jigs, just like in England. This thread gets more and more interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 01:33 PM

Greg,

If Malcolm flatpicks when he does jigs then my guess is that what he's doing is functionally (and sonically) equivalent to what I've seen Irish tenor banjo players do. That style is about as far from frailing/clawhammer as you can get. Which is not a bad thing.

Sorcha,

It's not that it cannot be done. Ken Perlman and Howie Bursen are astounding proof that it can be. It's not that I don't know how it could be done. I just don't see much point in trying to do it.

Claymore,

You assertion about the popularity of jigs in WV makes me very curious. I've done a fair amount of jamming with WV musicians and cannot remember the last time someone called for a jig.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: Kim C
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 01:44 PM

Personally, I love jigs. I only know about three, at this point, but dang, I love to play 'em. For some odd reason, I really, really like the 6/8 and 3/4 tempos.

I have only been to one contradance, and had a great time once I understood what was going on! That switching places at the end really discombobulated me. But it seems like those dances are all in even tempos, so, No Jigs.

Somebody enlighten me on the dance, though. Isn't a jig traditionally a solo dance, rather than a group one?

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 01:55 PM

there are solo jigs, and dances done by a setof people: the way the word has been used for 300 years in England(and Ireland and Scotland) is generally to describe tunes in 6/8 or 9/8 time. All sorts of dances are done to them, and loads of songs are sung to them (a bit slower than you would dance,generally!).

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 02:05 PM

Would be very grateful if any further postings are made to Part II which I am about to start: I cant read threads more than 42 messages long. Cheers Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 03:21 PM

Russ, Come to Shepherdstown, up the Potomac from Harpers Ferry. Ask for O'Hurley's General Store on a Thursday night. We do jigs, reels, and waltzes in equal measure, with a strathspey or hambo thrown in to keep the crowd off balance. .The big hint is the Irish Republic flag and the Northern Irish flag separated by the Antietim Irish American battle flag, hanging high in the rafters. The number at O'H is [phone] and they've been doing this for over 20 years.

Also there's a jam in Fredrick, MD at the Market Grill on Tuesdays, with the music alternating between old-time and Irish every other week.

You can't play out unless you Play Out.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: Margo
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 03:23 PM

Because it makes their heads reel... Nuyk nyuk nyuk!

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: Jim Krause
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 02:43 PM

I would have diagrammed out the basic Minstrel or Stroke style of banjo playing, but for some unfathomable reason, I got this message saying that my table tags were not permitted. What gives?
Jim