I'm Sick of the Bigotry

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 May 02 - 12:59 PM

I call that control-thing the Shoulddadons-- nasty and not very smart dinosaurs left over from a time when the people who were bigger and stronger, who were supposed to take care of us, didn't, and played the blame-shame game instead. When you grow up like that, everything can look a lot like people saying back and forth all the time, "What you SHOULDDA done was...." and then what follows is the "why" of being so awful to someone-- I get to be awful to YOU because YOU should have known better, should have thought first, ought to realize how I'm feeling, etc. Magical thinking.... it says, "You should have been thinking what I thought you should be thinking about, and if I have to TELL you that, that's the problem!" It is a lefotver in present time, of a time when the person so affected could not really do much for him/herself, and really depended on the supposed adults.... because the reality is, in present time, we don't really have to get someone else to do what we want, in order to do what we choose to do. We can choose from among a huge array of options, whatever the circumstance, and yet we so often feel, and act like, someone is standing on our oxygen hose ON PURPOSE and it will be FATAL so GET OFF! GET OFF!!!! DO something! *G* In AA it's called "stinkin' thinkin'".

Life is actually so much nicer than that!

~Susan

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 May 02 - 12:47 PM

DonD - Well, I threw the Lion's Club in for humorous effect... :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST,An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 02 May 02 - 12:05 PM

Could I copy in here a message, which I posted in the Drumcree megathread to explain it to a "bewildered" fellow-guest, and which is relevant here?

That thread, which seemed as if it could turn nasty, instead turned into a riot of creativity and wit, and I would recommend it as essential Mudcat reading. What saved it was the fact that one or two people were big enough to apologise when they realised they had gone too far in either giving or taking offence - that and the Irish ability to turn just about anything into a joke.

The fact that an uneasy peace has broken out in Northern Ireland makes room for that sense of humour, and the Middle East is unfortunately some way away from being joked about (except by very sick people). The poisonous people who use that situation as a pretext for their anti-Jewish or anti-Arab variants of antisemitism are best ignored.

And could I also renew a suggestion which I made somewhere else that, if it's technically possible, a separate area in the forum should be established for BS postings? That would reduce the risk of the music getting buried, without ruling out non-musical discussions among Catters and their guest friends?

******

"Poor bewildered, my heart goes out to you.

It's a Northern Ireland running joke which has taken on a life of its own. In fact it could arguably stake a claim to becoming a permathread, because it started off way off topic with someone who needed to get a load off his chest about current political issues by sharing it with fellow-mudcatters, but then mysteriously drifted bang onto topic by giving rise to a good dozen parodies, many of which are in the pure folk tradition of updating old songs to new circumstances.

It's drifted back off for a while, but even when OT it contains numerous musicians' in jokes, many of which would be accessible to folkies who are not Irish - e.g. the obsession with the Corrs which permeates the Chiff & Fipple forums, or the inevitable bodhran abuse theme.

I'm a newbie myself and still learning netiquette, so I'm still signing on as a guest, but Mudcat has been a revelation. At an early stage, when I was still aglow with gratitude for all the help which I'd got from Catters in finding words to a song, I posted a critical comment about someone lowering the tone of the site with some rather sharp political comments. But of course, I was the one who was wrong, because folk song (not least of the US variety) would be a mere shadow of itself if you took out the political content and commentary on current affairs.

On a quiet day at work I went right back to the start of the Drumcree threads and read on from there, which is the only way to make sense of this magnificently surreal phenomenon. The original posting takes ages to download, and someone kindly put it up on a website at

http://members.atozasia.com/munster/Drumcree1.htm

(sorry about the unblue unclickiness) where it's much easier to print and read, if you're interested in Drumcree itself. If you want to know more about the Northern Ireland situation as a whole, another contributor to the thread posted the URL of a trustworthy online archive run by a university at

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/cainbgn/index.html

- otherwise just skim through Brendy's magnum opus at the Drumcree site to get a flavour of the background then move on to where the fun begins at

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=43154

Beware, especially if you suffer from the German/American disease (spot the troll ;-) of literal-mindedness: not everything on this thread is to be taken at face value, and most if not all of the abuse is firmly tongue in cheek. Also, you will probably realise after a while that not all the postings in the name of famous musicians have necessarily been put up by the musicians in question. Likewise, Sean Pol O'Tuathail is Pope John Paul II, and he probably didn't really write the last posting.

But if you can spare the time, it will expand your consciousness in ways you could never have imagined."

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 May 02 - 12:02 PM

And those Mudcatters who insist that anon posting not be allowed have few control issues.

Now the curious thing is that, if had read And those Mudcatters who insist that anon posting not be allowed have a few control issues , it would have implied almost precisely the opposite. The English language is really strange sometimes.

And that's not in any way mocking WYD; typos creep into all our posts from time to time, and mine more than most, and that was the sort that no spellchecker could ever pick up.

However, it does strike me that some posts by generic GUEST do seem to have more than a hint of "control issues".

I found out the other day that, when you click on the GUEST at the head of a post, it treats it like any other name, and sooner or later up pops a screen full of posts from the generic and presumably multi-person GUEST (or from the particular GUEST, if it's a GUEST with a label, such as WYD). I rather feel that a trawl through those - which I haven't carried out - would throw up a lot of examples of control freakery.)

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 May 02 - 09:22 AM

Well, WYD (and I think you might have meant WYDSIWYDG), I was not trying to assess what's wrong with Mudcat.... the first paragraph of my post addressed what I find troublesome about unidentified GUESTS. The second addressed my approach to living with others' "control issues" in the context of personal relationships:

The desire to control is rigid, and strategies in that regard are not intelligently accurate because it is a one-trick solution based on making the controller feel better for the moment. There are lots of ways to assist people who want to change, and most people do want to change despite the appearance they give. But hollering "STOP YOU BAD!" is seldom one of the effective ones. Real change happens in the crucible of closeness, and increased closeness is not facilitated by gagging someone as soon as you are close enough to do it!

(Of course ytou can't have a personal relationship with an anonynous GUEST.)

Another thing I find troublesome is that many of our GUEST posts show such a remarkable ability to take what one has said or not said, and to infer a whole BUNCH of stuff from that which bears no relation to what the person was actually thinking, feeling, or doing. (WYD's post is one of the more civil examples of this.) I don't know if this is because the posters actually think that they can read minds, and know everything there is to know... or because they just like to stir things up (for whatever reason) by miscasting reality on a regular basis. Fortunately the motive doesn't matter too much, because the remedy is the same in either case: it is reassuringly amazing how the truth about things can remain perfectly obvious even when this occurs.

~Susan

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 May 02 - 09:03 AM

Happiness, you can check to see if your browser is set to eat or accept cookies. Under Netscape, its under 'edit', then 'preferences', then 'advanced'. Perhaps someone else could provide the route under Explorer.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST,WYDSIWYG
Date: 02 May 02 - 08:52 AM

Susan,

I think you might be failing to see how those Mudcatters demanding that anon guests put something in the From: line have a few control issues. And those Mudcatters who insist upon no BS/all BS have a few control issues. And those Mudcatters who insist that anon posting not be allowed have few control issues.

The forum is what it is. To spend the inordinate amount of time bitching about that so many Mudcatters do, is proof positive that they believe they should have control over the forum itself. Again--control issues.

I believe you are seeing the question a bit ass backwards.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Amos
Date: 02 May 02 - 07:39 AM

Mister H -- if your browser is set up to accept cookies it shouldn't have to be reset that often. You can reset it by going to 'Reset Cookie' under the Quiklinks, and logging in.

But once it has been set correctly, it should work each time.

Unless you have some kind of prejudice against cookies?

A

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST,mr happy
Date: 02 May 02 - 07:13 AM

as a relative newcomer to the mudcat chat place, i've not been aware of hostility to guests. however my 'cookie' [bicky?] keeps going off so i have to either be mr happy or happiness which is my registered member name

anybody got similar probs? help please

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST,mr happy
Date: 02 May 02 - 07:03 AM

in the digitrad there are some songs which could be considered anti-religion or racist by some people

eg plastic jesus, ceramic moses,etc

i go along with povs expressed here that its ok to ridicule the commercial aspects of religions but not hurt people by attacking the philosophies themselves

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: DonD
Date: 02 May 02 - 12:31 AM

LH What have you got against the Lions Club? Sure, we have our share of 'ots', but a common goal of trying to help others "We Serve".

I'm off to the state convention tomorrow, and I' sure I'll feel smarter/holier/more sophisticated than all the rubes from the boonies, but I'll respect them for the one thing that will have brought us together.

Too many threads end up being completely crept -- and crapped -- by GUEST, who to me is indistinhuishable. Maybe a solution would be to have all of 'us' immediately respond to the first obviously negative GUEST post with -- not a meaningful comment, but a simple "Goodbye, GUEST".

A string of those might get the message across: if you don't like our party, -- leave!

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 May 02 - 04:00 PM

"I think you may have me confused with someone else"

Exactly. But it occurs to me that there just might conceivably be a connection between this kind of confusion and the practice of signing in as plain GUEST...I know it's a wild speculation on my part, but it could just be true.

Somehow it always seems simpler not confusing people with each other when they have names or faces. If someone with a name says something stupid, it's quite easy for others to let them know. As I know from personal experience.

I've got a program on my computer now called MailWasher. It means I can get rid of anything that looks like spam in my email without even opening it. That's one very handy facility to have.

The truth is, I'm prejudiced against spam.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: PeteBoom
Date: 01 May 02 - 02:22 PM

I said:

"Rather reminds me of a fellow who used to go to a "celtic" site and got angry when he did not get the answer he wanted to his question... "How do you become a celtic?" Come to think of it, he called that forum racist and bigoted too..."

Which generated the response:

"Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry From: GUEST Date: 01-May-02 - 11:44 AM

Nice bigoted trolling there Pete! Equating "Celticness" with bigotry. A shining example of what I've been talking about all along in this thread. "

Which begs the question, dear Guest that posted the above message, What did I say was bigoted? The forum was a general forum on Celtic society, etc. A person came in asking how to become a "celtic". We explained that it wasn't a matter of "becoming" one, but rather a matter of historical record of BEING one or being descended from one. He did not like that and called us racist. At no time did I in my post state, overtly or by implication, that "celticness" in and of itself, was equatable to bigotry. You did that all by your lonesome.

Now, answer the question I asked in my original post - What forums have removed Mudcat from their links because of the bigotry here? Or were YOU trolling? Hmmmmm?

I've had enough of this silliness.

Joe - I hope things improve for you, and for the rest.

Pete

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 May 02 - 02:10 PM

You too, eh, Spaw? And a noble quest it is! Saddle up, brother, and we'll meet at the windmills!

- LH

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 May 02 - 01:15 PM

Frank, not only was that a damn fine description of the situation, but on a personal note I want to thank you for recognizing stupidity when you see it. I have been on a quest to take stupidity to new and uncharted levels and I appreciate your comments regarding my success!

Spaw

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: DougR
Date: 01 May 02 - 01:13 PM

I don't think it is reasonable to equate bigotry of "Guests" with bigotry as it applies to a race, creed, or religion.

Is there a prejudice against Guests that come to the Mudcat only to stir the pot? Yep, I think so.

Is there a prejudice against Guests that participate in duscussions as members do, and do not come here to inflame discussions? Nope, I don't think so.

Is it wrong for a member to express dissatisfaction with a Guest who obviously is bent on causing mischief? Nope, I don't think so.

DougR

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 May 02 - 01:08 PM

Actually, GUEST, I DO distinguish between various GUESTs based on the content of their posts...exactly as you suggest.

And I have no problem with most of them.

If you have this strong and constant desire to confront and not tolerate bigotry, racism, and sexism wherever they rear their ugly heads, then you are clearly very busy, and no doubt under great strain. You have my sympathy, because you have taken on a tremendous job.

I would suggest that there are far more fruitful fields in which you could toil than this forum when it comes to confronting these rampant evils...like your local bars, for instance, the streets of your town, the schools, the curches, your neighbourhood, the police detachment, the Lion's Club, the sports arena, etc. Someone with your courage needs to march straight into those places and show the bigots, sexists, and racists that they will be TOLERATED NO LONGER!

Yes, the sexism, racism, and bigotry in your town and mine is just seething out of control, and it's time something decisive was done about it! Mudcat is a mere side issue. Stop diddling around here, wasting your valuable time, and grab the bull by the horns where you actually live!

Then come back in a month or two and tell us how it went...our prayers will be with you.

- LH

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Pseudolus
Date: 01 May 02 - 12:50 PM

I remember the first time I read a post by Spaw. I remember thinking how incredibly stupid I thought the post was, getting on someone's case about something. Well, now, after all this time I think back and I realize that the post, well, was probably even stupider than I thought! LOL!!! I really like this place and I log in often. I suspect that there are those who do not and why they come back I can only assume is because they get a kick out of stirring up the pot. If you focus on one aspect of a subject (i.e. negativity in Mudcat) then you will eventually believe that is all there is to it. But if you take a chance and step back to look at the whole picture, you might just like what you see.

The bottom line is countless posts have been made by folks logged in as "GUEST" that have been hurtful. Sometimes they are disguised well by adding things that look like they are interested in a productive discussion. Then we find out, eventually that they are only here to cause trouble. That HAS happened, that is a fact. It is also a fact that not all "GUESTS" are like that. But please understand, we can't know one from the other just on appearance, since by appearance they all look like GUEST. So when we see someone with the name GUEST perhaps we can be forgiven for being a little guarded.....even a little on edge. We're human. but when the guest is here solely for the purpose of getting a rise out of the group, it's frustrating, irritating and sometimes, try as we might to ignore it, we lash out. Again, we're human.

I also agree that just having a Mudcat name doesn't mean you aren't a troll or flamer. It doesn't mean that you aren't a bigot, zealot or idiot....or any other "ot". We have our share of "ot's" but on the whole this is a nice place to hang around.......

Frank

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: IanC
Date: 01 May 02 - 12:44 PM

I've just wasted time reading this thread. Oh my god, what a mess!

Joe don't you think it would have been responsible to open this thread with a BS heading?. It's not a MUSIC thread, is it?

Ian

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 May 02 - 12:36 PM

The flavor of GUEST posting that keeps coming through as unsavory, to me, is the constant theme of controlling others. As above, where it is suggested that s/he has been able to make people stop saying things s/he has decided are bad. Problem is, the behavior may have been temporarily controlled, but the heart has not changed.

The desire to control is rigid, and strategies in that regard are not intelligently accurate because it is a one-trick solution based on making the controller feel better for the moment. There are lots of ways to assist people who want to change, and most people do want to change despite the appearance they give. But hollering "STOP YOU BAD!" is seldom one of the effective ones. Real change happens in the crucible of closeness, and increased closeness is not facilitated by gagging someone as soon as you are close enough to do it!

~Susan

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 02 - 12:26 PM

Well said, Amos. Thank you.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Amos
Date: 01 May 02 - 12:16 PM

I think in general that Guests are fine, a wonderful addition to the Zoo. As are members. If either members OR Guests start injecting wads of nounless venom, hostile but unspecific perjoratives, angry but unclear clouds of communication which produces more irritation or sadness than understanding, then I conclude I am dealing with one individual -- named or not -- who is temporarily deranged by stress to the point where he has to act it out in posts.

At that point, two factors come in to play -- the individual's own sense of right conduct, and the groups standards of necessary protocols for group continuity. Since temporary dementia has left the first factor out of play, apparently, the drooler gets whatever form of Mudcat justice is around to be deployed -- chastisement, ignoral, Coventry or rant. 'S price you pay for muddying the waters with venom.

The namelessness is only a problem when it is accompanied by destructive intent.

A

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 02 - 12:13 PM

Whatever Big Mick!

I think you may have me confused with someone else, but hey--just because you are paranoid doesn't mean you haven't got any enemies.

I see I have triggered Spaw's L'Enfant Provacateur proclivities, as seen here:

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame11.html

Which can only mean one thing. Here come the drones:

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame69.html

I'm outta here.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 May 02 - 12:04 PM

Well..........the Doc was just a generic comment. But your response to it, and the phrasing you use to respond is exactly like the same as when you sent me a PM regarding a current hot topic. In that PM you told me you were leaving The Mudcat. I didn't believe you. You have just confirmed it for me. Get help, you need it. And that is a wrap for me in this thread.

Mick

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 May 02 - 12:03 PM

Another good laugh!!! Guest says, "I don't tolerate bigotry in my presence among friends or family. I confront it, on the spot."

Like what? With a paper bag over your head?

Spaw

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 02 - 11:59 AM

You know what LH? I don't tolerate bigotry in my presence among friends or family. I confront it, on the spot. And my family and friends know I will do it, so they have--amazingly--learned to not make bigoted statements in my presence.

I don't write off bigotry, racism, and sexism in those I care about to "having a bad day", just so I don't have to do the painful work of confronting them. Ever.

As to how do you distinguish between guests LH, the answer is if you can't distinguish between us based upon the content, then you can't distinguish between us. Some of us aren't concerned about it, and find the irony and humor in some people's obsession about it!

Big Mick, I have no idea who Doc is, but I know that won't stop you and many others from projecting your fears, your paranoia, and your mistrust on every post with a blank From: line.

You are free to believe anything you want about my identity, or the identity of any anon poster. It doesn't make your assumptions about us right.

As to why I post here, its pretty simple. For the same reasons everyone else does. As to why I wouldn't leave because of the offensiveness of the forum--I choose to stay and fight to make it a better place. Is that so hard to understand for a person who has been coming here for years, but has never become a member?

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 May 02 - 11:52 AM

LMAO......oh man....That's a good one Guest!!! I thought the height of half-assed logic had been reached, but I have to admit that once again I am wrong!!! It takes great skill to take something completely innocuous and twist it so as to seem almost sensible.....almost, I said. You are to be commended for your great skill. Thanks for the laugh!

Spaw

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 May 02 - 11:50 AM

I've got no problem with GUESTS in general, just the occasional specific GUEST who is deliberately obnoxious and out to cause trouble. Matter of fact, we frequently get other GUESTS who, like Mudcat members, complain about those specific GUESTS themselves! Now how do we figure out which GUEST is which, when they are all called "GUEST"???

And which GUEST exactly are we talking about this time?

If you can't see the humour in this, maybe you need to rent a couple of old Charlie Chaplain movies and unwind for awhile.

There's another thing...yes, we tolerate swearing, etc, better when it comes from someone we already know well and have a multi-leveled understanding of...than when it comes out of the blue from a complete stranger.

Well, gosh! Isn't that exactly what happens all the time in REAL LIFE (off the internet, I mean) too??? Think about it. Do you react to complete strangers on the street or in another car the same way you do to old friends you've known and been around for years? Of course you don't! With a friend, you can assume he's probably just kidding around, or maybe he's having a rough day and is under a bit of a strain. With a total stranger, you don't have a clue where he's coming from.

This is just normal life, folks. It's what normally happens anywhere, not just on the Mudcat. Try barging into any place where the people don't know you from Adam and mouthing off aggressively at them, and see what happens...try it in a bar, in somebody's house, in a workplace, in a club, in a party caucus...anywhere...I guarantee you will not be well received. You will be received much worse, in most cases, than on this forum.

- LH

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 May 02 - 11:49 AM

You know why you reacted, Doc? Because you know it is true. If you didn't need the community, you wouldn't even bother to respond. And your pretending to stay on a higher plane doesn't fool me. I understand what motivates you, and every time you respond, you prove me true. Get help, you need it.

Your post begets the question. If you find this place so objectionable, why do you continue to shower us with your poor justifications for your behaviour? Any person of honor, if they found a site so objectionable would just quit going there. You continue because it feeds your needs. Again, get help, you need it.

Mick

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 02 - 11:44 AM

Nice bigoted trolling there Pete! Equating "Celticness" with bigotry. A shining example of what I've been talking about all along in this thread.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: PeteBoom
Date: 01 May 02 - 11:37 AM

Humanoid! (Attempting to avoid the gender-specific term left over from my upbringing...)

I did not KNOW all this stuff about this forum. I'm glad to learn that it has been removed from links of decent, non-prejudiced sites. What sites, pray tell, are these, that I too, may abandon the bigoted community here and dance in the warm sunshine of those non-bigoted locales?

Of course, I'm also curious. If you detest this place so much, why do you keep coming back?

Rather reminds me of a fellow who used to go to a "celtic" site and got angry when he did not get the answer he wanted to his question... "How do you become a celtic?" Come to think of it, he called that forum racist and bigoted too...

Have a generally acceptable and racist/ethicist and other prejudice-free day.

Pete

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 02 - 11:23 AM

Big Mick,

There is no excusing the bigotry in Mudcat. Not even you waxing poetic about the humanity of the bigots here. Or ascribing imaginary motives and intentions to anon guests' choice to post without an identity, like our supposed disaffection with long-term members, or pathetic attempts to paint articulate anon guests as malcontents who have lost the Mudcat popularity contest, and come back to taunt the forum.

Some of us don't need the sort of bigoted "community" you are so stridently defending and excusing under the rubric of how embodying bigotry is really just a fine example of Mudcat's humanity.

Not buying, thanks.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: InOBU
Date: 01 May 02 - 10:53 AM

Hi Joe:
I know the world gets you down... there is a lot of really rotten things happening, and sometimes they all seem to happen in the same day. But, let me share a thought sent to me by a friend of Yvette Michelle (the Yvette from my song, Yvette's Song). She and her family are nomatic hunter gatherers in far northern Quebec and Labrador. They were hunting far up into northern Labrador last September and didn't hear about the 11th untill they were returning to their village a month later. She wrote me a wonderful letter about the process of finding out about the terrible events, full of love and even humor. Then she closed with the Innu observation that the hardship and loss we face teaches us to fly.
When hateful comments are made here, it always, always leads to a resounding responce on the part of the huge majority of good folks and folkies here. The hardship of thier hate teaches us to fly.
Remember joy is a gift within untouchable by the external pain and we fly.
holding you in the light
Larry

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 May 02 - 10:42 AM

Look folks, it is not a tough equation. There are those whose purpose, it seems, it to attack the Mudcat and especially long term Mudcatters. They use typical demogogue tactics in that they pull out examples of where "inner circle" folks blew up, or got themselves into a bad spot. That isn't very hard to do, because we are all plain folks and make mistakes.

GUEST, your "logic" just doesn't stand the test. It isn't hard to find "rants" by any of us, especially those who have a long posting history. We are humans, and we have a long identifiable record of postings. On the other hand you do not. And that is what speaks to your motives. You, and the couple of allies you have, seek to justify your own existence and self worth by showing the rest of us how bad we are. In your poor, tormented mind you can only look good by making the rest of us look bad. Somewhere along the way you didn't get the validation out of this place that you thought you should, so you attack others that you see as getting that validation to feel better. But if you would open up your feeble little mind and check through the threads, you would find two things. One, the folks getting the validation are getting it because their views stand the test of scrutiny by a world wide audience. In the arena of ideas, they have passed. You resent that. Two, most of these folks, if you really cared about truth, have been attacked or cajoled for some of their views, when they went over the top. And we all have. But you really don't care about fairness, only in justifying your pitiful point of view.

What really bugs you is that you aren't a part of the community, yet you are so unsure of yourself that you hide and can't be part of the community. Get some help.

Joe, I don't like the bigotry either. I am a Catholic, and a part of the loyal opposition. I believe that all that is happening now will lead us to a better Catholic Community and make the Church more reflective of its body.

Jeri, I love you and don't you change a thing.

Mick

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST,Desdemona at work
Date: 01 May 02 - 10:22 AM

I sincerely apologise if I've ever given anyone offense with what I admit is often my very irreverent sense of humour; I can typically find something to laugh at in almost any situation, religion not excepted.

Again, mea culpa for any unintended offense given.

D.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 02 - 10:04 AM

And I note the worst offenders here are now happily floating down the River Denial over in the "Let's Talk Positive..." thread.

As if.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 02 - 09:58 AM

I would suggest that those Mudcat members who have the most difficulty accepting guests DO see all guests in the same way that anti-Semites see Jews. However, I am in no way equating the result of guest bashing with the result of Jew baiting/bashing.

It is the same mental process--the processing of irrational hate of someone/something strange, different, something "not us" however you want to describe it.

I believe the problem of bigotry and racism rearing their ugly heads in Mudcat with regularity is a direct result of the double standard for behavior, where one group (members) are allowed to spew the most hateful language at another group (guests) with impunity. Has anyone ever seen Joe Offer or Max come into a thread and tell members to stop harrassing and villifying innocent guests? No, you haven't.

As long as this double standard for behavior (ie one for members, one for guests) is promulgated by Max and the Mudcat leadership, it is dangerously naive to think that people won't carry that double standard into their hateful behavior and remarks about other groups of people too.

We have a classic case of "We didn't say anything when they went after the guests...and now they are coming after the Catholics, the Jews, the Muslims, etc"

Don't want a discussion forum filled with hate speech? Easy--do something to stop it among your Mudcat friends, among those Mudcat contributors you admire, and pressure the Mudcat leadership to put an end to it once and for all, by any means necessary. Which I think must include member only log-in. The problem of hate speech here is simply to pervasive and entrenched to deal with it any other way than by limiting the log-in and moderating the forum. It is too far gone to stop it any other way, IMO.

The inability of some of the most respected Mudcat members to control themselves on a daily basis regarding negative comments about guests, or harrassment of guests who choose not to provide an identity in the from line, is proof of what I'm saying. And that isn't even counting the serious attacks by large groups of members against guests who post a controversial or unpopular opinion.

Like I said, take the time to read the Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer threads, and you will see what I mean. Some very, very hateful stuff directed against guests for speaking their obviously unpopular opinion. Tyke and a few other members who tended to agree with the anon. guests were never attacked. Just the anon. guests.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST,1948
Date: 01 May 02 - 09:56 AM

The bigotry that Joe Offer finally found offensive this week is nothing new at Mudcat. Remember the "Jewish jokes" thread. When someone complained that the so-called joke about Jews hanging their toilet paper out to dry was anti-Semitic, they were jumped on as having no sense of humor. Bigotry has existed in this forum for quite some time and is a by-product of the way Joe and Max choose to run Mudcat.

One of the consequences of such an "open" forum is that some of the folk music experts who used to be around Mudcat are no longer here. Or, they come by with much less regularity.

The bigotry here has caused several folk music websites to remove their links to Mudcat.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST,Sick of Jeri
Date: 01 May 02 - 09:39 AM

It isn't about GUESTs, it is about the double standard--long time, high profile members can flame, say offensive things, and even let off with bigotted or racist comments, without getting any negative comment from other long time, high profile members--GUESTS, on the other hand, get attacked for simply stating views or presenting facts that are contrary to the prevailing opinions--

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 May 02 - 09:25 AM

GUESTS are not a group. A GUEST is someone who is posting but who is not signed in as a member, for a variety of reasons, mostly quite good reasons. There has never been any animus shown to people for doing that as such.

A few individuals when coming in as GUESTs have some hang up about even identifying themselves with a temporary name or number, which would make it more convenient for other people to respond to what they are saying. This is seen by many people as intentional discourtesy, when it is done intentionally. It may well be that sometimes the people who do this are in fact members, but that doesn't make any difference either way.

While there may be some people who do this for some mysterious reason, but without having any hostile intention, there have been many cases where it is clearly done with the intention of sowing discord. This explains why there is a fair amount of antagonism shown to the practice.

Suggesting that people who post without any kind of tag are "a group" subject to unfair discrimination makes as much sense as saying that people who drop litter are a group.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 02 - 08:38 AM

Frank,

The reality is there can be no justification for tolerating the negative behavior towards guests, any more than there can be justification for tolerating guests' negative behavior towards others.

Regardless of what has happened in the past, there is simply no justification for tolerating bad behavior here, yet it is done all the time. It is a slippery slope. Once you tolerate members flaming and harrassing guests, you tolerate a lot of negative, bigoted, racist, sexist sorts of behavior in your midst. You ignore it because your friends are doing it. People you admire are doing it. Everyone who means anything to you is doing it, so you do it too, or remain silent about it.

That is how hate happens, and the rhetoric of hate against guests in Mudcat is intolerable. That rhetoric of hate against ANYONE wouldn't be tolerated on any decent moderated forum, to be sure.

So, if people feel justified in their rhetoric of hate against guests, it is easy to justify the rhetoric of hate against Catholics, Jews, Arabs, or Dave Bulmer for that matter.

If you look objectively at the language used about any of the above, you'll see what I mean. I just read the entire 3 part thread on Celic Music/Dave Bulmer. Some people were actually suggesting someone do bodily harm to Bulmer. Others defended it. Most remained silent about it, or attacked the guest(s) who objected to it.

If you tolerate that sort of hatred in your midst, it definitely poisons you as individuals, and as a group.

It is really easy to hate us guests, isn't it? Easy to justify painting every one of us with the same broad brush. It is easy to hate Dave Bulmer--after all, look at all the terrible things he has done. So why not have a few of the lads pay him a visit when he is on his way home from his local one night? And the Palestinians--well, they bloody well deserve what they are getting right now from the Israelis--after all, look at what those suicide bombers did.

Its a slippery slope, accepting and justifying the hate and violence in our midst. Much easier than confronting it and trying to stop it.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST,Geordie
Date: 01 May 02 - 08:12 AM

Unfortunately society seems to have arrived at a point where it is all right to be anti-some groups, Jews, Catholics, men, wasps all seem to be acceptable targets. I just wish we could see each other as people not as members of anything but the human race. But it is hard not to respond to some of this junk. Good advice Joe, but not always easy. Thanks for the good thoughts.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Pseudolus
Date: 01 May 02 - 08:06 AM

Well Guest, your points are well taken but I think what you see isn't a willingness to bash Guests as much as you see a short fuse because of a lot of the garbage that has gone on around here. Many sites don't allow you to participate until you have "signed-up" and I would vote for that rule but unfortunately, rules "are made to be broken" in some people's eyes and that too would most likely have loopholes somewhere.

Frank

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 02 - 07:46 AM

The group suffering from the worst bigotry here are the guests. Automatic hatred, fear, paranoia, results in constant negative behavior towards people posting as guests, including harrassment, villification, and of course, the perennial favorite of Mudcatters, swearing a blue streak and using the worst language possible, directed at the guests, deserving or not.

Even more appalling, Mudcatters feel entirely justified in showing the absolute worst of themselves and humanity, without a second thought of fear of embarrassment, of being sanctioned or ostracized by the group--there is absolutely no limits to the outrageously bad behavior rewarded here for bashing guests. Who are, after all, human beings too. What we do isn't even as bad as bombing people, taking people hostage, sexually abusing them--nothing of that ilk.

Bigotry is really all about hating strangers--the people who aren't "us" whomever us may be in a given group of humans gathering anywhere on the planet.

Want to know how bad bigotry really is at Mudcat? Look at how all of you post to guests who make you angry or dare say something you disagree with. Jeri is right. Guests aren't the only negative force to be contended with here in Mudcat. The negativity has been feeding on itself for quite some time now, has gotten even worse since 9/11, and doesn't show any sign of ending soon.

I guess this is one of those "you get back what you give out to others" cases. The more people are allowed to continue harrassing others, especially guests, you are going to attract the negative sorts of people who naturally gravitate to that kind of thing as your membership. Like attracts like, as they say.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 May 02 - 06:13 AM

There are pubs where in an attempt to avoid disputes that get out of hand they have a rule that nothing in any way controversial is discussed. That means no politics. No religion. No sport...

If you're minded to have an argument you can have an argument about anything. And if you're so inclined you can get under peoples skin and with any luck they'll turn nasty, and the whole argument can turn nasty. And someone will suggest that its best to avoid that subject. And the list gets longer...

It isn't the topics that cause the damage, it's the attitude of mind that sets out to twist the arguments and discussions into quarrels.

In face to face discussion it can be very difficult to avoid that kind of shift from exchanging opinions and facts into just offending each other. That's what is special about this kind of medium we have here - we can hold back and look at what we are writing and change it so that it doesn't just involve striking back. The other side to that is that it is possible for those among us and around us who have other motives to lay out the poison so that it will be picked up.

If we back off from whole tracts of territory because of possible disagreement, what will be left for us? After all, we can quarrel about issues that are strictly to do with song and music after all. Whatever a song is about, there's the potential in it that could lead to disagreement. And any disagreement can lead us into a song, not necessarily in the same thread, but soon enough.

The real problem with the sectarian bigotry that sometimes shows up doesn't live in its offensiveness in itself - it's easy enough to scroll past it. The danger is that the tone of it can be catching, and it can have the effect of tripping us into trying to hurt each other rather than just explore our differences. For example a sectarian or racist post can lead on to an exchange in which someone else gets unjustly accused of being sectarian or racist, and that is taken as fighting talk, and a fight starts.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 01 May 02 - 05:32 AM

Joe, I'm not really seeing tons of authentic anti-Judaism here. It's pretty obvious that most of it is just trolls trying taint the opposition by associating thair criticism of Israel with anti-Judaism. Same with most of the anti-Islamic comments from the trolls on the "other" side. These comments by anonymous trolls don't bother me. The ones that bother me come from members, and other than some of RO1SIN's more unsavoury comments, I don't think you'll find any anti-Judaic posts by members. (Although you could find dozens of anti-Islamic, anti-Arab, etc. comments by members) And since most people already ignore these trolls, I guess I don't see what the big deal is.

---Lepus Rex (wondering what the Hell gargoyle said...)

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: CarolC
Date: 01 May 02 - 04:19 AM

Couldn't agree with you more, Joe. I hope you didn't think I was complaining about Gargoyle's post having been deleted. I just didn't want my post hanging there with no context, so I gave it what little bit of context I could.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 May 02 - 03:55 AM

I'm afraid it has gone beyond "heated discussion" and politics a number of times recently, and there has been some really hateful anti-semitism. As I said, the other stuff is rather mild - but taken as a whole picture, it looks like bigotry to me.

But the anti-semitism is downright ugly, and I ask you all to do your best to put a stop to it by answering it with a profound and unified silence. Do not acknowledge such bigotry publicly - send a personal message to me AND Pene Azul, and we will deal with it. Sometimes, we may delete offensive remarks, and sometimes not. If there are bigoted messages or threads about other ethnic or religious groups, let us know.

It's one thing to disagree with what Sharon is doing in Israel - but it's another thing when you start spouting off about putative Jewish conspiracies to control the media, etc.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: CarolC
Date: 01 May 02 - 03:47 AM

Wow. Now my last post doesn't make any sense at all with Gargoyle's post having been deleted. Oh well. I guess the reason I posted it will just have to be one of life's little mysteries.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 May 02 - 03:47 AM

Well, Lin, I used to be guilty as charged when it came to those types of threads, even started a few of them myself, but you are right, they became a lesson in futility and left nothing to offer.