I'm Sick of the Bigotry

Subject: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 02:51 PM

OK, enough is enough. I'm sick and tired of the anti-Semitism of Ro1sin's so-called jokes, and the anti-Catholic bigotry of the person who saw fit to start TWO threads today to alert us to the idiocy of the catholicshopper website.

I guess that it is once again politically correct to be bigoted against Jews and Catholics. Heck, I suppose it's fashionable nowadays to be bigoted against anybody who believes in anything.

Whovever you are, I ask you to stop it. Think of people as individuals, people who have dreams and ideals. Mudcat is not a place for hatred.

And if you think you're not a bigot, please don't support the bigots by responding to them.

So, stop it, already.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 03:03 PM

I'm all with you, Joe! I'm not posting to those threads. I didn't think that the Jesus Sports figures thing was any more than fun, though, and I am a "practicing" Christian. I'm hoping that some day I'll get it right.

Jerry

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Big Tim
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 03:04 PM

Well said Joe - I've been sick of bigotry since the day I was born.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 03:05 PM

Joe I couldnt agree more about Roi1sin's effusions, but I didn't see anything anti-Catholic in showing people those ridiculous statues. Being amused at the kitsch aesthetic doesnt carry any anti-religious bigotry, or not in my head it doesn't anyway. It may promote bigotry in the threads, can't say I've read them, but there's nothing offensive about the original poster who just showed us the pix for a laugh. Or maybe you know a bit more about the person concerned?

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 03:29 PM

Me too.

I don't like the anti-semitism that comes out in Ro1sin's posts, with cracks about pork and so forth, and I'm planning to keeping away from threads like that.

However, I didn't feel the laughter directed at that other site felt like an attack on Catholicism. It's the site itself I see as insultimg, as a Catholic. It hasn't got much to do with the Church I know.

But I'm am wholly in favour of us being more thoughtful about what we post and what we respond to. This is a dangerous road to go down.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 03:32 PM

Interesting, Joe, that you didn't mention anti-Islamic bigotry, which is much more common here than anti-Judaism or anti-Catholicism. :P

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 03:36 PM

What Mcgrath said.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: SharonA
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 03:40 PM

Joe: I too agree with you about RO1SIN's jokes (and let me add that the allusions to sexual perversion in them are quite unfunny). I agree that the GUEST who began one of the CatholicShopper threads (Phil, who posted the "was Jesus a white American?" thread) has some bigotry toward Catholics... and quite possibly toward white Americans of other faiths, too. However, the other CatholicShopper thread seems to have been started innocently enough, perhaps by another GUEST, without references to bigotry.

I agree with Greg that poking fun at the merchandise on the CatholicShopper.com site isn't anti-Catholic, any more than the "Christ's head in a potato" thread series was. As I said to Chip in one of today's threads, I don't think anyone's making fun of the faith of Catholics, just of the discrepancies between that faith and the portrayals of Jesus (and angels) in this merchandise. Obviously some Catholics find these figurines and this t-shirt art inspirational, but I doubt that the message they imply is canonical!

Also, I think that this is just an example of some people doing anything for a buck, and of other people (us) shaking our heads over it incredulously. I don't see the harm. There are businesses like Archie McPhee that sell the same sort of merchandise and poke fun at it at the same time! The difference there is that they poke fun at the kitsch of several major religions – see their Laptop Buddha squeaky-toy and their Totem Pole bank in addition to the boxing-nun puppets and other Christian-based stuff – while they give the same treatment to the rest of their line of merchandise!

You may ask, is nothing sacred? My answer would be, if it's not a thing that's an actual relic or meant to be reverential (like a prayer card), but instead a thing that crosses the line into the territory of exploitation, then that thing shouldn't be above ridicule. IMO, by ridiculing the thing, one is laughing at the impropriety of skewing religion to make a buck, not laughing at the religion itself.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST,skippy
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 03:43 PM

I'm sick of ytrobig, it's a small welsh mining village that I visit every year, I don't know why I keep going back!

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 03:53 PM

Hi, Joe:

Sometimes humor is nothing more than that. Many years ago, I took a bible study class in a Lutheran Church and our Pastor was the one who used to joke that all the biblical figures were blond and Scandinavian. They DID all look suspiciously like Troy Donohue. We just had a good laugh at it. When you get down to it, Jesus certainly wasn't "white" and didn't look like an American. Whatever Americans look like.

I do think that folks who ridicule the admittedly ridiculous aspects of any faith most likely carry some antagonism toward the faith... not just the product. But, a lot of the stuff IS funny. I'm comfortable enough with my faith not to be offended by it, as long as it doesn't get nasty.

I usedta be a Catholic and despite all the obvious problems in the church I still respect the basic tenets of the church. Some of the tenants should be kicked out, though.

Jerry

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Kernow John
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 04:12 PM

Joe
With you all the way.
I tend not to open many non music type threads these days unless they are from catters I respect.
I've never thought much to outright censorship but I'm starting to wonder....
John

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 04:34 PM

RO1SIN is a pain in the ass. The rest is pretty innocuous until we insist on beating each other up over it. Jerry, Mac, Sharon and all said it pretty well.

Spaw

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 04:34 PM

Been away a couple of days but I agree with you Joe and for me that includes anti Islamic bigotry. Neil

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Pseudolus
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 04:35 PM

Anytime someone posts to a thread or starts a thread that has bigotry, hatred, slander, etc., it is most likely started with the intent to get a rise out of the folks reading the post. It is a very difficult thing to just let it go, a tactic that Joe has been a proponent of for as long as I've been hanging around Mudcat. For Joe to respond, albeit in another thread, tells me that this time the combination of threads, remarks, and hate were over his personal threshold for trolls. I feel for ya Joe. As much as we all try to just walk away and ignore the trolls, it's just not always possible. It's nice to know that you're human however...*BG*

Frank

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 04:39 PM

I won't back anti-Semitism of any sort, but I'm pretty damn appalled at the level of support for what the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians right now in Mudcat.

I'll third Lepus Rex--the anti-Arab/anti-Muslim bigotry here is very bad.

I am Catholic, but disagree mightily that there is anti-Catholic bigotry being shown in the threads Joe Offer has mentioned. However, we do see anti-Catholic and anti-Irish bigotry in the Irish political threads all the time. Why no outrage over that bigotry when it is expressed Mudcatters?

Answer: double standards.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 04:45 PM

It's a very fine line sometimes, as to what is bigotry and what it is not...but I also agree that Rio1sin is crossing well over it, and being obnoxious.

There is no point in starting multiple threads on a contentious subject just to goad people.

- LH

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST,Amy
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 04:45 PM

The good news is, bigotry will die with the human race.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: kendall
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 04:47 PM

"It makes a difference whose ox is gored."

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 04:53 PM

I'm fed up too, but with hypocrisy, not bigotry.

It's just ridiculous... what bothers one person one day is someone else's very funny stuff another day..... whether you go along with it, ignore, it, or speak out against, it, it doesn't change a damn thing. This week MY peeve was the "suicide note" thread title, and I was amazed no one said anything about it.

We are all very fond of pointing out what others do that bothers us.... but we ALL do stuff that hurts others and then we don't own up to it. We get to choose not what others do, but what we ourselves do.

So get real, yourself, folks, before you pointy-finger someone else. Mudcat is still nicer than the world tends to be. Why else do you think we spend so much time HERE instead of THERE?

~Susan

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 05:02 PM

I agree with you, Joe. I'm sick of the bigotry too, and I'd like to see less bigotry and hatred toward Jews, Catholics, and Palestinians here in the forum.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Kim C
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 05:11 PM

Maybe I'm naive. I love everybody. Or try to, anyhow. Sometimes it ain't easy.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 05:34 PM

As I see it, bigotry is seeing all "people" of a group as the same, buying into stereotypes, displaying open disdain for an entire race/religion/ethnicity/etc., and taking jabs at anyone who does not share your own POV on the subject.

And, yeah...it's rampant everywhere you look, unfortunately here too.

There's no harm in having another view on a subject so long as you are considering *all* peoples inherent right to basic human dignities. This to include the right to disagree. If the conversation cannot remain civil and respectful, what good are we to anyone?

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 05:41 PM

I try to love everyone, but my mother's dog makes it quite difficult. He is a seditious, treacherous, greedy, and arrogant little monster. He destroys property and steals food. He struts around like Mussolini. He sucks up to you when the food is in your hand, and then treats you with hostility and contempt the moment it's in his mouth. He pees on fur hats and other valuable personal items. He is vile, smelly, lascivious, and totally untrustworthy.

Susan - I was also bugged by the "suicide note" thread, but decided to just ignore it.

- LH

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 06:21 PM

A wave of Jew-bashing in Europe

BOSTON GLOBE

By Jeff Jacoby, 4/28/2002

HE ROCKS have been lifted all over Europe, and the snakes of Jew-hatred are slithering free.

In Belgium, thugs beat up the chief rabbi, kicking him in the face and calling him ''a dirty Jew.'' Two synagogues in Brussels were firebombed; a third, in Charleroi, was sprayed with automatic weapons fire.

In Britain, the cover of the New Statesman, a left-wing magazine, depicted a large Star of David stabbing the Union Jack. Oxford professor Tom Paulin, a noted poet, told an Egyptian interviewer that American Jews who move to the West Bank and Gaza ''should be shot dead.'' A Jewish yeshiva student reading the Psalms was stabbed 27 times on a London bus. Anti-Semitism, wrote a columnist in The Spectator, ''has become respectable ... at London dinner tables.'' She quoted one member of the House of Lords: ''The Jews have been asking for it and now, thank God, we can say what we think at last.''

In Italy, the daily paper La Stampa published a Page 1 cartoon: A tank emblazoned with a Jewish star points its gun at the baby Jesus, who pleads, ''Surely they don't want to kill me again?'' In Corriere Della Sera, another cartoon showed Jesus trapped in his tomb, unable to rise, because Ariel Sharon, with rifle in hand, is sitting on the sepulchre.

In Germany, a rabbinical student was beaten up in downtown Berlin and a grenade was thrown into a Jewish cemetery. Thousands of neo-Nazis held a rally, marching near a synagogue on the Jewish sabbath. Graffiti appeared on a synagogue in the western town of Herford: ''Six million were not enough.''

In Ukraine, skinheads attacked Jewish worshippers and smashed the windows of Kiev's main synagogue. Ukrainian police denied that the attack was anti-Jewish.

In Greece, Jewish graves were desecrated in Ioannina and vandals hurled paint at the Holocaust memorial in Salonica. In Holland, an anti-Israel demonstration featured swastikas, photos of Hitler, and chants of ''Sieg Heil'' and ''Jews into the sea.'' In Slovakia, the Jewish cemetery of Kosice was invaded and 135 tombstones destroyed.

But nowhere have the flames of anti-Semitism burned more furiously than in France.

In Lyon, a car was rammed into a synagogue and set on fire. In Montpellier, the Jewish religious center was firebombed; so were synagogues in Strasbourg and Marseille; so was a Jewish school in Creteil. A Jewish sports club in Toulouse was attacked with Molotov cocktails, and on the statue of Alfred Dreyfus in Paris, the words ''Dirty Jew'' were painted. In Bondy, 15 men beat up members of a Jewish football team with sticks and metal bars. The bus that takes Jewish children to school in Aubervilliers has been attacked three times in the last 14 months. According to the police, metropolitan Paris has seen 10 to 12 anti-Jewish incidents per day since Easter.

Walls in Jewish neighborhoods have been defaced with slogans proclaiming ''Jews to the gas chambers'' and ''Death to the Jews.'' The weekly journal Le Nouvel Observateur published an appalling libel: It said Israeli soldiers rape Palestinian women, so that their relatives will kill them to preserve ''family honor.'' The French ambassador to Great Britain was not sacked - and did not apologize - when it was learned that he had told guests at a London dinner that the world's troubles were the fault of ''that shitty little country, Israel.''

''At the start of the 21st century,'' writes Pierre-Andre Taguieff, a well-known social scientist, in a new book, ''we are discovering that Jews are once again select targets of violence.... Hatred of the Jews has returned to France.''

But of course, it never left. Not France; not Europe. Anti-Semitism, the oldest bigotry known to man, has been a part of European society since time immemorial. In the aftermath of the Holocaust, open Jew-hatred became unfashionable; but fashions change, and Europe is reverting to type.

To be sure, some Europeans are shocked by the re-emergence of Jew-hatred all over their continent. But the more common reaction has been complacency. ''Stop saying that there is anti-Semitism in France,'' President Jacques Chirac told a Jewish editor in January. ''There is no anti-Semitism in France.'' The European media have been vicious in condemning Israel's self-defense against Palestinian terrorism in the West Bank; they have been far less agitated about anti-Jewish terror in their own backyard.

They are making a grievous mistake. For if today the violence and vitriol are aimed at the Jews, tomorrow they will be aimed at the Christians.

A timeless lesson of history is that it rarely ends with the Jews. Militant Islamist extremists were attacking and killing Jews long before they attacked and killed Americans on Sept. 11. The Nazis' first set out to incinerate the Jews; in the end, all of Europe was burned in the fire.

Jews, it is often said, are the canary in the coal mine of civilization. When they become the objects of savagery and hate, it means the air has been poisoned and an explosion is soon to come. If Europeans don't rise up and turn against the Jew-haters, the Jew-haters will rise up and turn against them.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 06:26 PM

GUEST, perhaps you don't know this, but the Joe Offer and the Mudcat delete whole articles that are posted to the forum the way you've done because they feel that it's redundant to post the whole thing. They prefer if you just post a clicky.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Gareth
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 06:42 PM

Tom Lehrer sumed it up

Click Here

Gareth

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Sorcha
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 06:55 PM

So am I, but you don't see me posting to that crapola do you?

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 07:01 PM

Frank, excuse me, but I'm going to agree with you in a rather rude manner. No apology - I've just about had it.

We have threads on Afghanistan, Palestine and Israel, child molesters, hate crimes, politicians doing bad things, etc. - in short, every thing we loathe seems to be a favorite subject on Mudcat. I'm getting very sick of it, and I'm getting very sick of the SAME FUCKING PEOPLE REPLYING IN EACH FUCKING THREAD, OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

Not only that - a troll can post in a music thread, and folks go off on that tangent and completely ignore the original post, because they'd rather play with the trolls than stick to the subject or talk about anything POSITIVE.

This was once a wonderful place where friends talked about things they loved. Now it's become centered around what people are mad about or downright hate. People here may be wonderful humans in real life but those who can't manage to shut the fuck up once in a while have made this place pretty damned negative. It's like walking into a workshop at a folk festival and finding everyone shouting and throwing chairs at one another. You find a couple of people hiding in a corner who are still trying to play some music and find it's nearly impossible to get to them through all the mayhem.

It does no good to ignore the obvious flame threads, because the shit turns up everywhere these days.

I don't find very much here these days that makes my life more enjoyable, and I find a lot more that turns me off. It's not going to change because the people who thrive on the continuous debate and outright flames don't want it to - and that includes a large proportion, of Mudcatters or at least quite a few very prolific ones.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 07:16 PM

There's still an amazing amount of great stuff around. You can find songs you never knew existed, and songs that have only just come into existence, becausde of thye Mudcat; find out what songs you've known all your life are about; exchange all kinds of wrinkles about making music; hear stories about musicians on the road; listen to stories about what is happening in the lives of people you you have learnt to know and appreciate through the Mudcat; plug into information about things coming up on the TV, or concerts or festivals; swap CDs with other Mudcatters... and more.

On the other hand some of us like to talk about things other than music as well, and at times it can get heated, though I think we are collectively getting better at generating light rather than heat. And of course there are some pillocks who mess around trying to get a rise out of the rest of us, and some of them can be a bit unpleasant.

This glass is more than half full, and less than half empty.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 07:51 PM

JERI,

By way of a comforting word to someone I like very much--

The music is still here, and the love of it, and the sharing of it. The threads... are the threads. Threads are not all of Mudcat. For instance, with the help of a few good people, I have been able to amass a huge amount of the music I love, recorded and in text form. I've had help with sources, software, using the software, stuff being sent to me as lovely surprises or good swaps-- and the music pours out of me, there is so much that has been poured IN. My life is richer and so, they tell me, are the lives of those who the music pours out on and through and beyond....

So-- I know the threads have been pretty yucky, I agree about that-- but the place is still the place, and music still runs through it.

~Susan

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: gnu
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 07:56 PM

Bravo Joe and most of the other posters, especially Jeri.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Amergin
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 08:02 PM

jeri, amen. another thing that has been irritating me are the folks who always have to say something....more to see their own words in print than anything else...and it shows up in all sorts of threads...

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 08:05 PM

so your mother's dog is a jew? whats your point

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Amos
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 08:54 PM

Well, let me say something about what I love, and in particular what I love about Jewish people. They love life, and I share that with them; they love teaching, and so do I. They love to dance, as I do, and they love to work hard to make something good happen, which I agree with. They love music that raiseth up the spirit, as I do; and they love to honor the past for what it has given us, as I also. The Jews love the brotherhood they share around the world, so strong that the homes of complete strangers are open to you without question when the need arises; and I honor any community that has such deep commitments. The Jews love the bringing of new children into the world and the celebration of their learning to be in and live in it, which I do with all my heart also.

As it happens, I also feel these things about the kind and honorable Muslims I have known, both here and in their own lands, and likewise the Greeks, Germans and French I have met and befriended.

So I am afraid there is something sad and corkscrewed about anyone so full of fear, and pain, and loss and doubt, that they would even begin to think about people in such broad categories as bad in any way; because it means he or she has lost the ability to see, and is swept away by a river of terror from within their own heart; and that is something to weep for, indeed.

A

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Pseudolus
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 08:58 PM

Jeri,
I'm with ya. I agree with your sentiment for sure, but I do believe that there is much here to love. If there wasn't, it wouldn't bother you (and others) so much that it looks like it could be taken away by the constant trolls and flames. Tolls and flamers will start a fire, and will stoke it for a while but I truly believe that if they are ignored, eventually they will get tired of playing. Our responses are like oxygen to a fire, they can't live without it.

To Susan, it's because of the thread title that I did NOT post to the suicide thread to talk about my feelings. I suspect that a lot of folks ignored it because that is the way they have chosen to go. We're not being hypocritical, in fact, if we responded to the thread, then we would have been exactly that. There are a lot that totally agree and share your pet peeve, if not, I'll buy you a cheesecake...uh...wait a minute, don't I already owe you one? *BG*

So I would like to offer myself up as a sort of Dear Abby, but better. If you're feeling frustrated and need to vent...PM me!! Yell at me, call me names, tell me I have no right to be on the same planet with you. But then tell me you were just venting, that you really love me and we'll all feel better!!!! So whatdaya think????? Now I don't mean to make light of some very real frustrations here, I really don't but hey, some of you might really get some comfort from that kind of thing and if so...I'm here for ya!!!

Frank

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 09:07 PM

That's a nice post, Amos.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 09:10 PM

Not so...my mother's dog is a gentile, and probably an atheist as well, I would guess, unless he thinks that he is god...which is a distinct possibility, judging from his general air of omnipotence.

Amos - That was an inspired post! Thank you for saying what you did, and saying it so eloquently. What you have posted is the plain truth which could and should unite us all. Bravo. We tend to forget the good side of people when we get caught up in these endless political wrangles.

- LH

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 09:19 PM

One catholicshopper thread wouldn't seem to be bigotry, but both came from the same person. TWO threads are an indication of a problem. I will admit that the people who run catholicshopper and the people who patronize the site must be idiots - but every religion has idiots. Now, it you want a better example of anti-Catholic bigotry, look at the message of a few days ago that lists "celibate Catholic priest" as an oxymoron. I have a number of friends who are priests, and most of them have struggled a lifetime to keep a promise of celibacy that they find quite meaningless - but they keep their promise, anyhow. for them, "celibate Catholic priest" is definitely NOT an oxymoron.
The anti-Catholicism here has been mild compared to the anti-Semitism, but it's there. And yes, there has been anti-Islamic bigotry, too - I didn't mention it because it didn't happen today. It's the anti-Semitism that has arisen here that really worries me - but there's all kinds of hatred expressed here, and I don't think it has a place at Mudcat. There is no room for hatred at Mudcat - no matter who the hatred is directed at.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 09:21 PM

Ah I dunno' Joe......I hate myself sometimes........Does that count?

Spaw

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 09:24 PM

I must confess to being guilty...not, certainly, to being a bigot, but to responding to obvious trolls and sometimes to others that are acting in a trollish manner. As a sometimes historian, I often feel that I have to either correct clear errors or to provide balance to a one-sided perspective. However, I do my best, and pledge to try to do better, to get out of a discussion as soon as it becomes obvious that its only purpose is to feed someone's preconceived ideas or their bigotry...even if it is sometimes fun to feed a rotten chunk of something to a troll.

Mudcat is a great place to hang out, and what makes it so are all of the wonderful people that make it the community it is. Like all homes, however, you have to watch out for the termites in the baseboards. We all should remember that a thread dies in 24 hours if nobody responds to it (even if ANON.GUEST refreshes them occasionly if he/she/it needs a charge). Let's all try harder to curb our wit and consign them to the ash can of history.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST,Sick of Jeri
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 09:41 PM

And some of us are long past being fed up with Jeri's ranting and raving --notice that she is nearly always worse than the *many* that she complains about--she seems incapable of commenting without abusive language--and, for some reason, none of the "regulars" stand up to her, though they will jump on a GUEST who fails to tow the straight and narrow in a heartbeat--

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 09:47 PM

Nice one, Spaw... :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 10:07 PM

Dear poster in anonymity: I've been on Mudcat three or four months now. In that time, I keep running across certain people in threads who I find enjoyable getting to know. Even if it's just cyber-know. McGrath has got to be at the top of the list, but there's a whole slug of people who immediately come to mind. People I really enjoy seeing in threads that I follow. Jeri is one of them. Other than the obvious appeal of her name, I find her comments positive and to the point. You could add Cflat, Deckman, Bobert, Katlaughing and many others... not an exhaustive list. The one person I have a lot of trouble with is named Guest. Let's hear it for Jeri!!

Jerry

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Lin in Kansas
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 10:09 PM

And just why the hell are we discussing religion OR politics of any kind on a folk music and blues site?????

Lin

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 10:14 PM

Because we get tired of playing the Kevin Bacon Game.

Spaw---on a Kevin Bacon kick tonite

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 10:19 PM

Spaw, have you seen that credit card commercial where Kevin Bacon hauls in a bunch of people to prove who he is?

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 10:22 PM

Yeah Jeri.....Cracks me up! I like people who can have a laugh at themselves....and in Bacon's case, even make a buck from doing so.

Spaw

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Lin in Kansas
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 10:24 PM

Gee, the things I miss from not watching TV.

Sorry Spaw, I don't know what the Kevin Bacon game is, but it's gotta be more fun than talking about subjects no one is ever going to agree on, don't you think?

Lin

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: DougR
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 10:32 PM

Er, ah, hmmm, McGrath, L.H., Carol ...I think Jeri might be referring to ...us.

DougR

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 10:36 PM

Hi Lin!

The small-world phenomenon formalizes the anecdotal notion that "you are only ever six 'degrees of separation' away from anybody else on the planet." Almost everyone is familiar with the sensation of running into a complete stranger at a party or in some public arena and, after a short conversation, discovering that they know somebody unexpected in common. "Well, it's a small-world!" they exclaim. The small-world phenomenon is a generalized version of this experience, the claim being that even when two people do not have a friend in common, only a short chain of intermediaries separates them.

The Kevin Bacon Game: Kevin Bacon is an actor best known for not being the star of many films. But a few years ago, Brett Tjaden—a computer scientist at the University of Virginia—catapulted Bacon to true international recognition with the claim that he was somehow at the center of the movie universe. This is how the game goes:

Think of an actor or actress.
If they have ever been in a film with Kevin Bacon, then they have a "Bacon Number" of one.
If they have never been in a film with Kevin Bacon but have been in a film with somebody else who has, then they have a Bacon Number of two, and so on.

The claim is that no one who has been in an American film, ever has a Bacon Number of greater than four. Elvis Presley, for example, has a Bacon Number of two. For real enthusiasts, Tjaden created a web site that provides the Bacon Number and shortest path to the great man for the most obscure of choices. In fact, Tjaden later fireproofed his claim by conducting an exhaustive survey of the Internet Movie Database, and determined that the highest finite Bacon Number (for any nationality) is eight. This may seem nothing more than a quirky fact about an already bizarre industry, but in fact it is a particularly clear example of a phenomenon that increasingly pervades our day-to-day existence: something known as the "small-world phenomenon."

Spaw

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Lin in Kansas
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 10:42 PM

Spaw, I do recall a book some time back called "Six Degrees of Separation" which put forth this theory.

I would really be bad at this game. I've watched very few Kevin Bacon movies and am not particularly fond of the ones I have seen.

Just a stick in the mud, I reckon. Thanks for the explanation!

Lin

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 10:42 PM

Bigotry is founded in fear. In the words of Herbert Hoover of F.D.R., whoever is was, "All we have to fear is fear its self." Get over it. Talk with someone you might fear because of differences in race, origin or religious beliefs... today. Within all the major religions there is a common denominator of "caring" for others and for self. Armed with this, bigotry is just a lazy and/or scared man's excuse for not going up to to someone not like him and say, "Hey".

There is a resturant in my town that is owned by Pakistanis and since Sept 11 folks don't go there anymore. I do and I have gotten to know the folks there better than ever. The manager's father, who is still in Pakistan, is into gardening and as a gardener myself I have found a means to get beyond the programed bigotry that the media has attempted to force upon us. And I am that much richer.

Bobert

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Sorcha
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 11:05 PM

I have never ever heard of Kevin Bacon........

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 11:13 PM

No way, DougR! I'm only on about five or six of the currently running threads. She must be talking about you!

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: bflat
Date: 01 May 02 - 12:19 AM

Me too!

Ellen

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST,Sick of Jeri
Date: 01 May 02 - 12:29 AM

You're right, DougR--Jerry Rassmussen, read her post and think about what you are defending--what ever nice qualities she may have, she has posted much more of this sort of thing, and by any measure, it is unacceptable--her language is enough to get here banned from many ISPs, and in a number of states, the language, coupled with the tone, is enough to qualify as "harrassment"--is it OK, because she is your friend?

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: DougR
Date: 01 May 02 - 12:46 AM

Perhaps you're right, Carol. Could be.

DougR

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: CarolC
Date: 01 May 02 - 12:52 AM

Well, I can't speak for you, DougR. I don't really know how many you're in. But I went over the threads that I'm currently in, and although I counted about 8, only three of them are contentious. But since I'm in those three a lot maybe it looks to you like I'm in a lot of threads. And here we are, hijacking this one! (btw. My last post was supposed to have a smiley face at the end.)

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 May 02 - 12:57 AM

And what is so terrible about discussing subjects, like politics and religion, on which people frequently disagree? I will discuss any subject that interests me, and I expect to be disagreed with frequently, but I don't intend to hate, fear, or demonize those who do disagree with me. If I talk to them long enough, it becomes clear that they hold most of the same ideals I do, regardless of the fact that they may disagree with me vehemently about some political issue or another...and our disagreement arises out of our different backgrounds, not out of the fact that one of us is "bad" and the other is "good". This helps me learn not to judge others hastily (if at all), but instead get to know them better.

I think the habit of scrupulously avoiding controversial subjects is one based on laziness, inflexibility and FEAR, the same things bigotry is based on (right on, Bobert!). Just because someone disagrees with you does not ipso facto make him your ENEMY. It could on the contrary make him quite interesting, and enlarge your view of reality a bit. You want a place where everyone agrees? Well then, establish a police state, and just imprison or kill everyone who doesn't agree with your official version of reality. It's been done, folks...all in the name of "order".

As for the oft repeated cry that this is a folk and blues site...well, yes, it is.

I don't know about blues, but folk music has NEVER been afraid of taking on controversial subjects, and has generally been at the forefront of doing so.

If you are so disturbed by threads about politics or religion...then don't read them, for gosh sakes! Read some other thread instead. God knows, there isn't enough time in the day to read all the threads on this forum, is there?

I will add to that, however, that Jeri and Amos both have an excellent point in saying that our energy is better spent on discussing things we love than things we hate. No doubt about that. I think politics comes up because most of us love freedom, peace, and justice...and religion comes up because many of us love God or love Life itself and see it as a spiritual journey.

Plus, we love to talk... :-) That should be obvious by now.

Everything comes back to love. Love expressed or love denied, but it all begins with Love. When a child is born, that's plainly obvious. You can see it in the eyes of the parents. We all strive in the defense of what we love, and that's natural.

- LH

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 02 - 01:19 AM

Sorry, Gargoyle. Message deleted.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Pseudolus
Date: 01 May 02 - 01:26 AM

I agree with you Little Hawk, we shouldn't be afraid to discuss subjects that are controversial. However, I think the anger here (at least for me) are the threads and comments that are intended solely to get under the skin of the folks around here. Using bigotry and hatred, trolls are more often than not successful in getting many of us (I've been guilty as well!) to respond and get into an argument. They don't really have an opinion on the subject, they just want to get things stirred up.

I am more than happy to agree to disagree on subjects that you and I disagree on (this one included), I just think that many of the issues we're discussing in this thread have to do with trolls who don't care nearly as much about the opinions they are stating, as they do about prodding people into reacting to their extreme statements.

Just a thought,
Frank

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: CarolC
Date: 01 May 02 - 01:35 AM

My son probably has some Jewish ancestry. He's a Mudcatter. One of his paternal great grandfathers was from Alsace Loraine and his name was an anglicized form of a Jewish name, with the first name of Ira.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 May 02 - 01:42 AM

My daughters and I have always enjoyed Kevin Bacon, esp. in Footloose, Flatliners, and Diner.

Near as I can tell this is just another of those interminable "rehash" threads which seem to be taking over the Mudcat.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Lin in Kansas
Date: 01 May 02 - 03:36 AM

Right on, katlaughing!

My point exactly about religion and politics threads. They go on and on and on and any "discussion" very soon gets lost, because each person who posts (just as in this thread) has their own firmly held opinion and is very unlikely to alter it in any way because of anything someone else might have to say.

Little Hawk, I don't mind a good debate, or a good argument. Most of these (including this one) are pointless; why waste the energy?

This is my last comment on this or any thread like it. And BTW, I DON'T read many of the religion threads, and I refuse to read ANY of the political threads. I find I'd much rather go read a good book or practice my concertina than participate in a Philosophy and Religion 101 project, thanks. Did enough of that in college, and didn't much care about or for it then.

Lin

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 May 02 - 03:47 AM

Well, Lin, I used to be guilty as charged when it came to those types of threads, even started a few of them myself, but you are right, they became a lesson in futility and left nothing to offer.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: CarolC
Date: 01 May 02 - 03:47 AM

Wow. Now my last post doesn't make any sense at all with Gargoyle's post having been deleted. Oh well. I guess the reason I posted it will just have to be one of life's little mysteries.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 May 02 - 03:55 AM

I'm afraid it has gone beyond "heated discussion" and politics a number of times recently, and there has been some really hateful anti-semitism. As I said, the other stuff is rather mild - but taken as a whole picture, it looks like bigotry to me.

But the anti-semitism is downright ugly, and I ask you all to do your best to put a stop to it by answering it with a profound and unified silence. Do not acknowledge such bigotry publicly - send a personal message to me AND Pene Azul, and we will deal with it. Sometimes, we may delete offensive remarks, and sometimes not. If there are bigoted messages or threads about other ethnic or religious groups, let us know.

It's one thing to disagree with what Sharon is doing in Israel - but it's another thing when you start spouting off about putative Jewish conspiracies to control the media, etc.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: CarolC
Date: 01 May 02 - 04:19 AM

Couldn't agree with you more, Joe. I hope you didn't think I was complaining about Gargoyle's post having been deleted. I just didn't want my post hanging there with no context, so I gave it what little bit of context I could.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 01 May 02 - 05:32 AM

Joe, I'm not really seeing tons of authentic anti-Judaism here. It's pretty obvious that most of it is just trolls trying taint the opposition by associating thair criticism of Israel with anti-Judaism. Same with most of the anti-Islamic comments from the trolls on the "other" side. These comments by anonymous trolls don't bother me. The ones that bother me come from members, and other than some of RO1SIN's more unsavoury comments, I don't think you'll find any anti-Judaic posts by members. (Although you could find dozens of anti-Islamic, anti-Arab, etc. comments by members) And since most people already ignore these trolls, I guess I don't see what the big deal is.

---Lepus Rex (wondering what the Hell gargoyle said...)

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 May 02 - 06:13 AM

There are pubs where in an attempt to avoid disputes that get out of hand they have a rule that nothing in any way controversial is discussed. That means no politics. No religion. No sport...

If you're minded to have an argument you can have an argument about anything. And if you're so inclined you can get under peoples skin and with any luck they'll turn nasty, and the whole argument can turn nasty. And someone will suggest that its best to avoid that subject. And the list gets longer...

It isn't the topics that cause the damage, it's the attitude of mind that sets out to twist the arguments and discussions into quarrels.

In face to face discussion it can be very difficult to avoid that kind of shift from exchanging opinions and facts into just offending each other. That's what is special about this kind of medium we have here - we can hold back and look at what we are writing and change it so that it doesn't just involve striking back. The other side to that is that it is possible for those among us and around us who have other motives to lay out the poison so that it will be picked up.

If we back off from whole tracts of territory because of possible disagreement, what will be left for us? After all, we can quarrel about issues that are strictly to do with song and music after all. Whatever a song is about, there's the potential in it that could lead to disagreement. And any disagreement can lead us into a song, not necessarily in the same thread, but soon enough.

The real problem with the sectarian bigotry that sometimes shows up doesn't live in its offensiveness in itself - it's easy enough to scroll past it. The danger is that the tone of it can be catching, and it can have the effect of tripping us into trying to hurt each other rather than just explore our differences. For example a sectarian or racist post can lead on to an exchange in which someone else gets unjustly accused of being sectarian or racist, and that is taken as fighting talk, and a fight starts.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 02 - 07:46 AM

The group suffering from the worst bigotry here are the guests. Automatic hatred, fear, paranoia, results in constant negative behavior towards people posting as guests, including harrassment, villification, and of course, the perennial favorite of Mudcatters, swearing a blue streak and using the worst language possible, directed at the guests, deserving or not.

Even more appalling, Mudcatters feel entirely justified in showing the absolute worst of themselves and humanity, without a second thought of fear of embarrassment, of being sanctioned or ostracized by the group--there is absolutely no limits to the outrageously bad behavior rewarded here for bashing guests. Who are, after all, human beings too. What we do isn't even as bad as bombing people, taking people hostage, sexually abusing them--nothing of that ilk.

Bigotry is really all about hating strangers--the people who aren't "us" whomever us may be in a given group of humans gathering anywhere on the planet.

Want to know how bad bigotry really is at Mudcat? Look at how all of you post to guests who make you angry or dare say something you disagree with. Jeri is right. Guests aren't the only negative force to be contended with here in Mudcat. The negativity has been feeding on itself for quite some time now, has gotten even worse since 9/11, and doesn't show any sign of ending soon.

I guess this is one of those "you get back what you give out to others" cases. The more people are allowed to continue harrassing others, especially guests, you are going to attract the negative sorts of people who naturally gravitate to that kind of thing as your membership. Like attracts like, as they say.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Pseudolus
Date: 01 May 02 - 08:06 AM

Well Guest, your points are well taken but I think what you see isn't a willingness to bash Guests as much as you see a short fuse because of a lot of the garbage that has gone on around here. Many sites don't allow you to participate until you have "signed-up" and I would vote for that rule but unfortunately, rules "are made to be broken" in some people's eyes and that too would most likely have loopholes somewhere.

Frank

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST,Geordie
Date: 01 May 02 - 08:12 AM

Unfortunately society seems to have arrived at a point where it is all right to be anti-some groups, Jews, Catholics, men, wasps all seem to be acceptable targets. I just wish we could see each other as people not as members of anything but the human race. But it is hard not to respond to some of this junk. Good advice Joe, but not always easy. Thanks for the good thoughts.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 02 - 08:38 AM

Frank,

The reality is there can be no justification for tolerating the negative behavior towards guests, any more than there can be justification for tolerating guests' negative behavior towards others.

Regardless of what has happened in the past, there is simply no justification for tolerating bad behavior here, yet it is done all the time. It is a slippery slope. Once you tolerate members flaming and harrassing guests, you tolerate a lot of negative, bigoted, racist, sexist sorts of behavior in your midst. You ignore it because your friends are doing it. People you admire are doing it. Everyone who means anything to you is doing it, so you do it too, or remain silent about it.

That is how hate happens, and the rhetoric of hate against guests in Mudcat is intolerable. That rhetoric of hate against ANYONE wouldn't be tolerated on any decent moderated forum, to be sure.

So, if people feel justified in their rhetoric of hate against guests, it is easy to justify the rhetoric of hate against Catholics, Jews, Arabs, or Dave Bulmer for that matter.

If you look objectively at the language used about any of the above, you'll see what I mean. I just read the entire 3 part thread on Celic Music/Dave Bulmer. Some people were actually suggesting someone do bodily harm to Bulmer. Others defended it. Most remained silent about it, or attacked the guest(s) who objected to it.

If you tolerate that sort of hatred in your midst, it definitely poisons you as individuals, and as a group.

It is really easy to hate us guests, isn't it? Easy to justify painting every one of us with the same broad brush. It is easy to hate Dave Bulmer--after all, look at all the terrible things he has done. So why not have a few of the lads pay him a visit when he is on his way home from his local one night? And the Palestinians--well, they bloody well deserve what they are getting right now from the Israelis--after all, look at what those suicide bombers did.

Its a slippery slope, accepting and justifying the hate and violence in our midst. Much easier than confronting it and trying to stop it.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 May 02 - 09:25 AM

GUESTS are not a group. A GUEST is someone who is posting but who is not signed in as a member, for a variety of reasons, mostly quite good reasons. There has never been any animus shown to people for doing that as such.

A few individuals when coming in as GUESTs have some hang up about even identifying themselves with a temporary name or number, which would make it more convenient for other people to respond to what they are saying. This is seen by many people as intentional discourtesy, when it is done intentionally. It may well be that sometimes the people who do this are in fact members, but that doesn't make any difference either way.

While there may be some people who do this for some mysterious reason, but without having any hostile intention, there have been many cases where it is clearly done with the intention of sowing discord. This explains why there is a fair amount of antagonism shown to the practice.

Suggesting that people who post without any kind of tag are "a group" subject to unfair discrimination makes as much sense as saying that people who drop litter are a group.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST,Sick of Jeri
Date: 01 May 02 - 09:39 AM

It isn't about GUESTs, it is about the double standard--long time, high profile members can flame, say offensive things, and even let off with bigotted or racist comments, without getting any negative comment from other long time, high profile members--GUESTS, on the other hand, get attacked for simply stating views or presenting facts that are contrary to the prevailing opinions--

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST,1948
Date: 01 May 02 - 09:56 AM

The bigotry that Joe Offer finally found offensive this week is nothing new at Mudcat. Remember the "Jewish jokes" thread. When someone complained that the so-called joke about Jews hanging their toilet paper out to dry was anti-Semitic, they were jumped on as having no sense of humor. Bigotry has existed in this forum for quite some time and is a by-product of the way Joe and Max choose to run Mudcat.

One of the consequences of such an "open" forum is that some of the folk music experts who used to be around Mudcat are no longer here. Or, they come by with much less regularity.

The bigotry here has caused several folk music websites to remove their links to Mudcat.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 02 - 09:58 AM

I would suggest that those Mudcat members who have the most difficulty accepting guests DO see all guests in the same way that anti-Semites see Jews. However, I am in no way equating the result of guest bashing with the result of Jew baiting/bashing.

It is the same mental process--the processing of irrational hate of someone/something strange, different, something "not us" however you want to describe it.

I believe the problem of bigotry and racism rearing their ugly heads in Mudcat with regularity is a direct result of the double standard for behavior, where one group (members) are allowed to spew the most hateful language at another group (guests) with impunity. Has anyone ever seen Joe Offer or Max come into a thread and tell members to stop harrassing and villifying innocent guests? No, you haven't.

As long as this double standard for behavior (ie one for members, one for guests) is promulgated by Max and the Mudcat leadership, it is dangerously naive to think that people won't carry that double standard into their hateful behavior and remarks about other groups of people too.

We have a classic case of "We didn't say anything when they went after the guests...and now they are coming after the Catholics, the Jews, the Muslims, etc"

Don't want a discussion forum filled with hate speech? Easy--do something to stop it among your Mudcat friends, among those Mudcat contributors you admire, and pressure the Mudcat leadership to put an end to it once and for all, by any means necessary. Which I think must include member only log-in. The problem of hate speech here is simply to pervasive and entrenched to deal with it any other way than by limiting the log-in and moderating the forum. It is too far gone to stop it any other way, IMO.

The inability of some of the most respected Mudcat members to control themselves on a daily basis regarding negative comments about guests, or harrassment of guests who choose not to provide an identity in the from line, is proof of what I'm saying. And that isn't even counting the serious attacks by large groups of members against guests who post a controversial or unpopular opinion.

Like I said, take the time to read the Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer threads, and you will see what I mean. Some very, very hateful stuff directed against guests for speaking their obviously unpopular opinion. Tyke and a few other members who tended to agree with the anon. guests were never attacked. Just the anon. guests.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 02 - 10:04 AM

And I note the worst offenders here are now happily floating down the River Denial over in the "Let's Talk Positive..." thread.

As if.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST,Desdemona at work
Date: 01 May 02 - 10:22 AM

I sincerely apologise if I've ever given anyone offense with what I admit is often my very irreverent sense of humour; I can typically find something to laugh at in almost any situation, religion not excepted.

Again, mea culpa for any unintended offense given.

D.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 May 02 - 10:42 AM

Look folks, it is not a tough equation. There are those whose purpose, it seems, it to attack the Mudcat and especially long term Mudcatters. They use typical demogogue tactics in that they pull out examples of where "inner circle" folks blew up, or got themselves into a bad spot. That isn't very hard to do, because we are all plain folks and make mistakes.

GUEST, your "logic" just doesn't stand the test. It isn't hard to find "rants" by any of us, especially those who have a long posting history. We are humans, and we have a long identifiable record of postings. On the other hand you do not. And that is what speaks to your motives. You, and the couple of allies you have, seek to justify your own existence and self worth by showing the rest of us how bad we are. In your poor, tormented mind you can only look good by making the rest of us look bad. Somewhere along the way you didn't get the validation out of this place that you thought you should, so you attack others that you see as getting that validation to feel better. But if you would open up your feeble little mind and check through the threads, you would find two things. One, the folks getting the validation are getting it because their views stand the test of scrutiny by a world wide audience. In the arena of ideas, they have passed. You resent that. Two, most of these folks, if you really cared about truth, have been attacked or cajoled for some of their views, when they went over the top. And we all have. But you really don't care about fairness, only in justifying your pitiful point of view.

What really bugs you is that you aren't a part of the community, yet you are so unsure of yourself that you hide and can't be part of the community. Get some help.

Joe, I don't like the bigotry either. I am a Catholic, and a part of the loyal opposition. I believe that all that is happening now will lead us to a better Catholic Community and make the Church more reflective of its body.

Jeri, I love you and don't you change a thing.

Mick

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: InOBU
Date: 01 May 02 - 10:53 AM

Hi Joe:
I know the world gets you down... there is a lot of really rotten things happening, and sometimes they all seem to happen in the same day. But, let me share a thought sent to me by a friend of Yvette Michelle (the Yvette from my song, Yvette's Song). She and her family are nomatic hunter gatherers in far northern Quebec and Labrador. They were hunting far up into northern Labrador last September and didn't hear about the 11th untill they were returning to their village a month later. She wrote me a wonderful letter about the process of finding out about the terrible events, full of love and even humor. Then she closed with the Innu observation that the hardship and loss we face teaches us to fly.
When hateful comments are made here, it always, always leads to a resounding responce on the part of the huge majority of good folks and folkies here. The hardship of thier hate teaches us to fly.
Remember joy is a gift within untouchable by the external pain and we fly.
holding you in the light
Larry

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 02 - 11:23 AM

Big Mick,

There is no excusing the bigotry in Mudcat. Not even you waxing poetic about the humanity of the bigots here. Or ascribing imaginary motives and intentions to anon guests' choice to post without an identity, like our supposed disaffection with long-term members, or pathetic attempts to paint articulate anon guests as malcontents who have lost the Mudcat popularity contest, and come back to taunt the forum.

Some of us don't need the sort of bigoted "community" you are so stridently defending and excusing under the rubric of how embodying bigotry is really just a fine example of Mudcat's humanity.

Not buying, thanks.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: PeteBoom
Date: 01 May 02 - 11:37 AM

Humanoid! (Attempting to avoid the gender-specific term left over from my upbringing...)

I did not KNOW all this stuff about this forum. I'm glad to learn that it has been removed from links of decent, non-prejudiced sites. What sites, pray tell, are these, that I too, may abandon the bigoted community here and dance in the warm sunshine of those non-bigoted locales?

Of course, I'm also curious. If you detest this place so much, why do you keep coming back?

Rather reminds me of a fellow who used to go to a "celtic" site and got angry when he did not get the answer he wanted to his question... "How do you become a celtic?" Come to think of it, he called that forum racist and bigoted too...

Have a generally acceptable and racist/ethicist and other prejudice-free day.

Pete

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 02 - 11:44 AM

Nice bigoted trolling there Pete! Equating "Celticness" with bigotry. A shining example of what I've been talking about all along in this thread.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 May 02 - 11:49 AM

You know why you reacted, Doc? Because you know it is true. If you didn't need the community, you wouldn't even bother to respond. And your pretending to stay on a higher plane doesn't fool me. I understand what motivates you, and every time you respond, you prove me true. Get help, you need it.

Your post begets the question. If you find this place so objectionable, why do you continue to shower us with your poor justifications for your behaviour? Any person of honor, if they found a site so objectionable would just quit going there. You continue because it feeds your needs. Again, get help, you need it.

Mick

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 May 02 - 11:50 AM

I've got no problem with GUESTS in general, just the occasional specific GUEST who is deliberately obnoxious and out to cause trouble. Matter of fact, we frequently get other GUESTS who, like Mudcat members, complain about those specific GUESTS themselves! Now how do we figure out which GUEST is which, when they are all called "GUEST"???

And which GUEST exactly are we talking about this time?

If you can't see the humour in this, maybe you need to rent a couple of old Charlie Chaplain movies and unwind for awhile.

There's another thing...yes, we tolerate swearing, etc, better when it comes from someone we already know well and have a multi-leveled understanding of...than when it comes out of the blue from a complete stranger.

Well, gosh! Isn't that exactly what happens all the time in REAL LIFE (off the internet, I mean) too??? Think about it. Do you react to complete strangers on the street or in another car the same way you do to old friends you've known and been around for years? Of course you don't! With a friend, you can assume he's probably just kidding around, or maybe he's having a rough day and is under a bit of a strain. With a total stranger, you don't have a clue where he's coming from.

This is just normal life, folks. It's what normally happens anywhere, not just on the Mudcat. Try barging into any place where the people don't know you from Adam and mouthing off aggressively at them, and see what happens...try it in a bar, in somebody's house, in a workplace, in a club, in a party caucus...anywhere...I guarantee you will not be well received. You will be received much worse, in most cases, than on this forum.

- LH

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 May 02 - 11:52 AM

LMAO......oh man....That's a good one Guest!!! I thought the height of half-assed logic had been reached, but I have to admit that once again I am wrong!!! It takes great skill to take something completely innocuous and twist it so as to seem almost sensible.....almost, I said. You are to be commended for your great skill. Thanks for the laugh!

Spaw

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 02 - 11:59 AM

You know what LH? I don't tolerate bigotry in my presence among friends or family. I confront it, on the spot. And my family and friends know I will do it, so they have--amazingly--learned to not make bigoted statements in my presence.

I don't write off bigotry, racism, and sexism in those I care about to "having a bad day", just so I don't have to do the painful work of confronting them. Ever.

As to how do you distinguish between guests LH, the answer is if you can't distinguish between us based upon the content, then you can't distinguish between us. Some of us aren't concerned about it, and find the irony and humor in some people's obsession about it!

Big Mick, I have no idea who Doc is, but I know that won't stop you and many others from projecting your fears, your paranoia, and your mistrust on every post with a blank From: line.

You are free to believe anything you want about my identity, or the identity of any anon poster. It doesn't make your assumptions about us right.

As to why I post here, its pretty simple. For the same reasons everyone else does. As to why I wouldn't leave because of the offensiveness of the forum--I choose to stay and fight to make it a better place. Is that so hard to understand for a person who has been coming here for years, but has never become a member?

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 May 02 - 12:03 PM

Another good laugh!!! Guest says, "I don't tolerate bigotry in my presence among friends or family. I confront it, on the spot."

Like what? With a paper bag over your head?

Spaw

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 May 02 - 12:04 PM

Well..........the Doc was just a generic comment. But your response to it, and the phrasing you use to respond is exactly like the same as when you sent me a PM regarding a current hot topic. In that PM you told me you were leaving The Mudcat. I didn't believe you. You have just confirmed it for me. Get help, you need it. And that is a wrap for me in this thread.

Mick

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 02 - 12:13 PM

Whatever Big Mick!

I think you may have me confused with someone else, but hey--just because you are paranoid doesn't mean you haven't got any enemies.

I see I have triggered Spaw's L'Enfant Provacateur proclivities, as seen here:

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame11.html

Which can only mean one thing. Here come the drones:

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame69.html

I'm outta here.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Amos
Date: 01 May 02 - 12:16 PM

I think in general that Guests are fine, a wonderful addition to the Zoo. As are members. If either members OR Guests start injecting wads of nounless venom, hostile but unspecific perjoratives, angry but unclear clouds of communication which produces more irritation or sadness than understanding, then I conclude I am dealing with one individual -- named or not -- who is temporarily deranged by stress to the point where he has to act it out in posts.

At that point, two factors come in to play -- the individual's own sense of right conduct, and the groups standards of necessary protocols for group continuity. Since temporary dementia has left the first factor out of play, apparently, the drooler gets whatever form of Mudcat justice is around to be deployed -- chastisement, ignoral, Coventry or rant. 'S price you pay for muddying the waters with venom.

The namelessness is only a problem when it is accompanied by destructive intent.

A

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 02 - 12:26 PM

Well said, Amos. Thank you.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 May 02 - 12:36 PM

The flavor of GUEST posting that keeps coming through as unsavory, to me, is the constant theme of controlling others. As above, where it is suggested that s/he has been able to make people stop saying things s/he has decided are bad. Problem is, the behavior may have been temporarily controlled, but the heart has not changed.

The desire to control is rigid, and strategies in that regard are not intelligently accurate because it is a one-trick solution based on making the controller feel better for the moment. There are lots of ways to assist people who want to change, and most people do want to change despite the appearance they give. But hollering "STOP YOU BAD!" is seldom one of the effective ones. Real change happens in the crucible of closeness, and increased closeness is not facilitated by gagging someone as soon as you are close enough to do it!

~Susan

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: IanC
Date: 01 May 02 - 12:44 PM

I've just wasted time reading this thread. Oh my god, what a mess!

Joe don't you think it would have been responsible to open this thread with a BS heading?. It's not a MUSIC thread, is it?

Ian

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Pseudolus
Date: 01 May 02 - 12:50 PM

I remember the first time I read a post by Spaw. I remember thinking how incredibly stupid I thought the post was, getting on someone's case about something. Well, now, after all this time I think back and I realize that the post, well, was probably even stupider than I thought! LOL!!! I really like this place and I log in often. I suspect that there are those who do not and why they come back I can only assume is because they get a kick out of stirring up the pot. If you focus on one aspect of a subject (i.e. negativity in Mudcat) then you will eventually believe that is all there is to it. But if you take a chance and step back to look at the whole picture, you might just like what you see.

The bottom line is countless posts have been made by folks logged in as "GUEST" that have been hurtful. Sometimes they are disguised well by adding things that look like they are interested in a productive discussion. Then we find out, eventually that they are only here to cause trouble. That HAS happened, that is a fact. It is also a fact that not all "GUESTS" are like that. But please understand, we can't know one from the other just on appearance, since by appearance they all look like GUEST. So when we see someone with the name GUEST perhaps we can be forgiven for being a little guarded.....even a little on edge. We're human. but when the guest is here solely for the purpose of getting a rise out of the group, it's frustrating, irritating and sometimes, try as we might to ignore it, we lash out. Again, we're human.

I also agree that just having a Mudcat name doesn't mean you aren't a troll or flamer. It doesn't mean that you aren't a bigot, zealot or idiot....or any other "ot". We have our share of "ot's" but on the whole this is a nice place to hang around.......

Frank

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 May 02 - 01:08 PM

Actually, GUEST, I DO distinguish between various GUESTs based on the content of their posts...exactly as you suggest.

And I have no problem with most of them.

If you have this strong and constant desire to confront and not tolerate bigotry, racism, and sexism wherever they rear their ugly heads, then you are clearly very busy, and no doubt under great strain. You have my sympathy, because you have taken on a tremendous job.

I would suggest that there are far more fruitful fields in which you could toil than this forum when it comes to confronting these rampant evils...like your local bars, for instance, the streets of your town, the schools, the curches, your neighbourhood, the police detachment, the Lion's Club, the sports arena, etc. Someone with your courage needs to march straight into those places and show the bigots, sexists, and racists that they will be TOLERATED NO LONGER!

Yes, the sexism, racism, and bigotry in your town and mine is just seething out of control, and it's time something decisive was done about it! Mudcat is a mere side issue. Stop diddling around here, wasting your valuable time, and grab the bull by the horns where you actually live!

Then come back in a month or two and tell us how it went...our prayers will be with you.

- LH

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: DougR
Date: 01 May 02 - 01:13 PM

I don't think it is reasonable to equate bigotry of "Guests" with bigotry as it applies to a race, creed, or religion.

Is there a prejudice against Guests that come to the Mudcat only to stir the pot? Yep, I think so.

Is there a prejudice against Guests that participate in duscussions as members do, and do not come here to inflame discussions? Nope, I don't think so.

Is it wrong for a member to express dissatisfaction with a Guest who obviously is bent on causing mischief? Nope, I don't think so.

DougR

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 May 02 - 01:15 PM

Frank, not only was that a damn fine description of the situation, but on a personal note I want to thank you for recognizing stupidity when you see it. I have been on a quest to take stupidity to new and uncharted levels and I appreciate your comments regarding my success!

Spaw

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 May 02 - 02:10 PM

You too, eh, Spaw? And a noble quest it is! Saddle up, brother, and we'll meet at the windmills!

- LH

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: PeteBoom
Date: 01 May 02 - 02:22 PM

I said:

"Rather reminds me of a fellow who used to go to a "celtic" site and got angry when he did not get the answer he wanted to his question... "How do you become a celtic?" Come to think of it, he called that forum racist and bigoted too..."

Which generated the response:

"Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry From: GUEST Date: 01-May-02 - 11:44 AM

Nice bigoted trolling there Pete! Equating "Celticness" with bigotry. A shining example of what I've been talking about all along in this thread. "

Which begs the question, dear Guest that posted the above message, What did I say was bigoted? The forum was a general forum on Celtic society, etc. A person came in asking how to become a "celtic". We explained that it wasn't a matter of "becoming" one, but rather a matter of historical record of BEING one or being descended from one. He did not like that and called us racist. At no time did I in my post state, overtly or by implication, that "celticness" in and of itself, was equatable to bigotry. You did that all by your lonesome.

Now, answer the question I asked in my original post - What forums have removed Mudcat from their links because of the bigotry here? Or were YOU trolling? Hmmmmm?

I've had enough of this silliness.

Joe - I hope things improve for you, and for the rest.

Pete

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 May 02 - 04:00 PM

"I think you may have me confused with someone else"

Exactly. But it occurs to me that there just might conceivably be a connection between this kind of confusion and the practice of signing in as plain GUEST...I know it's a wild speculation on my part, but it could just be true.

Somehow it always seems simpler not confusing people with each other when they have names or faces. If someone with a name says something stupid, it's quite easy for others to let them know. As I know from personal experience.

I've got a program on my computer now called MailWasher. It means I can get rid of anything that looks like spam in my email without even opening it. That's one very handy facility to have.

The truth is, I'm prejudiced against spam.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: DonD
Date: 02 May 02 - 12:31 AM

LH What have you got against the Lions Club? Sure, we have our share of 'ots', but a common goal of trying to help others "We Serve".

I'm off to the state convention tomorrow, and I' sure I'll feel smarter/holier/more sophisticated than all the rubes from the boonies, but I'll respect them for the one thing that will have brought us together.

Too many threads end up being completely crept -- and crapped -- by GUEST, who to me is indistinhuishable. Maybe a solution would be to have all of 'us' immediately respond to the first obviously negative GUEST post with -- not a meaningful comment, but a simple "Goodbye, GUEST".

A string of those might get the message across: if you don't like our party, -- leave!

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST,mr happy
Date: 02 May 02 - 07:03 AM

in the digitrad there are some songs which could be considered anti-religion or racist by some people

eg plastic jesus, ceramic moses,etc

i go along with povs expressed here that its ok to ridicule the commercial aspects of religions but not hurt people by attacking the philosophies themselves

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST,mr happy
Date: 02 May 02 - 07:13 AM

as a relative newcomer to the mudcat chat place, i've not been aware of hostility to guests. however my 'cookie' [bicky?] keeps going off so i have to either be mr happy or happiness which is my registered member name

anybody got similar probs? help please

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Amos
Date: 02 May 02 - 07:39 AM

Mister H -- if your browser is set up to accept cookies it shouldn't have to be reset that often. You can reset it by going to 'Reset Cookie' under the Quiklinks, and logging in.

But once it has been set correctly, it should work each time.

Unless you have some kind of prejudice against cookies?

A

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST,WYDSIWYG
Date: 02 May 02 - 08:52 AM

Susan,

I think you might be failing to see how those Mudcatters demanding that anon guests put something in the From: line have a few control issues. And those Mudcatters who insist upon no BS/all BS have a few control issues. And those Mudcatters who insist that anon posting not be allowed have few control issues.

The forum is what it is. To spend the inordinate amount of time bitching about that so many Mudcatters do, is proof positive that they believe they should have control over the forum itself. Again--control issues.

I believe you are seeing the question a bit ass backwards.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 May 02 - 09:03 AM

Happiness, you can check to see if your browser is set to eat or accept cookies. Under Netscape, its under 'edit', then 'preferences', then 'advanced'. Perhaps someone else could provide the route under Explorer.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 May 02 - 09:22 AM

Well, WYD (and I think you might have meant WYDSIWYDG), I was not trying to assess what's wrong with Mudcat.... the first paragraph of my post addressed what I find troublesome about unidentified GUESTS. The second addressed my approach to living with others' "control issues" in the context of personal relationships:

The desire to control is rigid, and strategies in that regard are not intelligently accurate because it is a one-trick solution based on making the controller feel better for the moment. There are lots of ways to assist people who want to change, and most people do want to change despite the appearance they give. But hollering "STOP YOU BAD!" is seldom one of the effective ones. Real change happens in the crucible of closeness, and increased closeness is not facilitated by gagging someone as soon as you are close enough to do it!

(Of course ytou can't have a personal relationship with an anonynous GUEST.)

Another thing I find troublesome is that many of our GUEST posts show such a remarkable ability to take what one has said or not said, and to infer a whole BUNCH of stuff from that which bears no relation to what the person was actually thinking, feeling, or doing. (WYD's post is one of the more civil examples of this.) I don't know if this is because the posters actually think that they can read minds, and know everything there is to know... or because they just like to stir things up (for whatever reason) by miscasting reality on a regular basis. Fortunately the motive doesn't matter too much, because the remedy is the same in either case: it is reassuringly amazing how the truth about things can remain perfectly obvious even when this occurs.

~Susan

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 May 02 - 12:02 PM

And those Mudcatters who insist that anon posting not be allowed have few control issues.

Now the curious thing is that, if had read And those Mudcatters who insist that anon posting not be allowed have a few control issues , it would have implied almost precisely the opposite. The English language is really strange sometimes.

And that's not in any way mocking WYD; typos creep into all our posts from time to time, and mine more than most, and that was the sort that no spellchecker could ever pick up.

However, it does strike me that some posts by generic GUEST do seem to have more than a hint of "control issues".

I found out the other day that, when you click on the GUEST at the head of a post, it treats it like any other name, and sooner or later up pops a screen full of posts from the generic and presumably multi-person GUEST (or from the particular GUEST, if it's a GUEST with a label, such as WYD). I rather feel that a trawl through those - which I haven't carried out - would throw up a lot of examples of control freakery.)

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST,An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 02 May 02 - 12:05 PM

Could I copy in here a message, which I posted in the Drumcree megathread to explain it to a "bewildered" fellow-guest, and which is relevant here?

That thread, which seemed as if it could turn nasty, instead turned into a riot of creativity and wit, and I would recommend it as essential Mudcat reading. What saved it was the fact that one or two people were big enough to apologise when they realised they had gone too far in either giving or taking offence - that and the Irish ability to turn just about anything into a joke.

The fact that an uneasy peace has broken out in Northern Ireland makes room for that sense of humour, and the Middle East is unfortunately some way away from being joked about (except by very sick people). The poisonous people who use that situation as a pretext for their anti-Jewish or anti-Arab variants of antisemitism are best ignored.

And could I also renew a suggestion which I made somewhere else that, if it's technically possible, a separate area in the forum should be established for BS postings? That would reduce the risk of the music getting buried, without ruling out non-musical discussions among Catters and their guest friends?

******

"Poor bewildered, my heart goes out to you.

It's a Northern Ireland running joke which has taken on a life of its own. In fact it could arguably stake a claim to becoming a permathread, because it started off way off topic with someone who needed to get a load off his chest about current political issues by sharing it with fellow-mudcatters, but then mysteriously drifted bang onto topic by giving rise to a good dozen parodies, many of which are in the pure folk tradition of updating old songs to new circumstances.

It's drifted back off for a while, but even when OT it contains numerous musicians' in jokes, many of which would be accessible to folkies who are not Irish - e.g. the obsession with the Corrs which permeates the Chiff & Fipple forums, or the inevitable bodhran abuse theme.

I'm a newbie myself and still learning netiquette, so I'm still signing on as a guest, but Mudcat has been a revelation. At an early stage, when I was still aglow with gratitude for all the help which I'd got from Catters in finding words to a song, I posted a critical comment about someone lowering the tone of the site with some rather sharp political comments. But of course, I was the one who was wrong, because folk song (not least of the US variety) would be a mere shadow of itself if you took out the political content and commentary on current affairs.

On a quiet day at work I went right back to the start of the Drumcree threads and read on from there, which is the only way to make sense of this magnificently surreal phenomenon. The original posting takes ages to download, and someone kindly put it up on a website at

http://members.atozasia.com/munster/Drumcree1.htm

(sorry about the unblue unclickiness) where it's much easier to print and read, if you're interested in Drumcree itself. If you want to know more about the Northern Ireland situation as a whole, another contributor to the thread posted the URL of a trustworthy online archive run by a university at

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/cainbgn/index.html

- otherwise just skim through Brendy's magnum opus at the Drumcree site to get a flavour of the background then move on to where the fun begins at

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=43154

Beware, especially if you suffer from the German/American disease (spot the troll ;-) of literal-mindedness: not everything on this thread is to be taken at face value, and most if not all of the abuse is firmly tongue in cheek. Also, you will probably realise after a while that not all the postings in the name of famous musicians have necessarily been put up by the musicians in question. Likewise, Sean Pol O'Tuathail is Pope John Paul II, and he probably didn't really write the last posting.

But if you can spare the time, it will expand your consciousness in ways you could never have imagined."

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 May 02 - 12:47 PM

DonD - Well, I threw the Lion's Club in for humorous effect... :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 May 02 - 12:59 PM

I call that control-thing the Shoulddadons-- nasty and not very smart dinosaurs left over from a time when the people who were bigger and stronger, who were supposed to take care of us, didn't, and played the blame-shame game instead. When you grow up like that, everything can look a lot like people saying back and forth all the time, "What you SHOULDDA done was...." and then what follows is the "why" of being so awful to someone-- I get to be awful to YOU because YOU should have known better, should have thought first, ought to realize how I'm feeling, etc. Magical thinking.... it says, "You should have been thinking what I thought you should be thinking about, and if I have to TELL you that, that's the problem!" It is a lefotver in present time, of a time when the person so affected could not really do much for him/herself, and really depended on the supposed adults.... because the reality is, in present time, we don't really have to get someone else to do what we want, in order to do what we choose to do. We can choose from among a huge array of options, whatever the circumstance, and yet we so often feel, and act like, someone is standing on our oxygen hose ON PURPOSE and it will be FATAL so GET OFF! GET OFF!!!! DO something! *G* In AA it's called "stinkin' thinkin'".

Life is actually so much nicer than that!

~Susan