Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?Obit1-09

Subject: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Peter T.
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 07:14 PM

From The Telegraph, 1991. 2002?

The true story of William Zantzinger

The sorry tale of William Zantzinger and poor Hattie Carroll has been told in detail once before, not in the pages of The Telegraph, but in a piece that was specially written for the anthology, All Across The Telegraph. It was only a few months ago, however, that, 28 years after the crime that was commemorated in Bob Dylan's great song, The Lonesome Death Of Hattie Carroll, William Zantzinger was again in trouble with the law. A profile of Zantzinger was published in the Washington Post magazine on August 4, 1991, written by Peter Carlson. What follows is a revised version of the original AATT article, with borrowings from Peter Carlson's work to bring the story up to date.

William Devereux Zantzinger, 24, killed poor Hattie Carroll at 1.40am on February 8, 1963, at the Spinsters' Ball - an annual charity event sponsored by post-debutantes - at the Emerson Hotel in Baltimore. That year's event was to benefit the Baltimore League for Crippled Children and Adults.

Zantzinger attended the function with his 24-year-old wife, the former Jane Elson Duvall. The couple had met at school - Sidwell Friends School, Washington DC - and William Zantzinger had gone on to the University of Maryland. His father, Richard C. Zantzinger, was prominent in the Washington real estate business and a Maryland socialite; he'd also served a term in the Maryland legislature and been a former member of the state Planning Commission.

The Spinsters' Ball had begun at about 10 o'clock on the Friday night and was due to run until about 2am on the Saturday. Two hundred people had invitations to attend. The Zantzingers drove there from West Hatton, the 630-acre family farm at Mount Victoria in Charles County, which produced tobacco, corn and grain. When Billy Zantzinger, a high spirited young man who loved partying and, especially, horse-riding and fox-hunting with the Wimoco Hunt Club, turned up at the Ball, he was pretty drunk. "I just flew in from Texas! Gimme a drink!" a laughing Billy shouted, by way of announcing his arrival. At well over six feet tall, in white tie and tails, a carnation in his lapel and a top hat on his head, he cut a striking figure. He carried a cheap wooden cane with which he pretended to be Fred Astaire; when he wanted a drink, he used the cane to tap smartly on the silver punch bowl; when a pretty woman whom he knew waltzed by, he'd tap her playfully, all in fun, no offence, of course.

By about 1.30am Billy had had more than enough to drink; his initial high spirits had darkened and his behaviour, particularly towards the hotel staff, began to degenerate. Ethel Hill, a 30-year-old black waitress of Belkthune Avenue, Baltimore, was clearing a table near the Zantzingers when she was approached by Zantzinger himself. He asked her something about a firemen's fund, then, as the police reported it later, she was struck across the buttocks "with a cane of the carnival prize kind". She tried to move away, but Zantzinger followed her, striking her several times across the arm, thighs and buttocks. Mrs Hill wasn't seriously hurt, but her arm hurt, and she ran, in tears, back to the kitchen. In the next few minutes, the cane would be used again, first against a bellhop, then to yank the chain around the wine waiter's neck; as Billy's wife, Jane, tried to calm him down, he collapsed on top of her in the middle of the dancefloor and began hitting her over the head with his shoe; when another guest tried to pull him off, Zantzinger thumped him. Then, apparently retrieving some of his dignity, he dusted himself down, and decided he needed a drink.

Working behind the bar was Hattie Carroll, a 51-year-old black woman who had worked at the Emerson Hotel for six years as an extra employee for special functions and "ballroom events". She was a member of the Gillis Memorial Church and was active with both the church and in local social work. The mother of 11 children, Hattie Carroll lived with two of her daughters, a 14-year-old and an 18-year-old, her other nine children all being older and married. She suffered from an enlarged heart and had a history of hypertension.

Zantzinger went up to the bar at just before a quarter to two and ordered a bourbon and ginger ale. Hattie Carroll was busy when he barked out his order. "Just a minute, sir," she said. As she did come to serve him, she fumbled with the glass, and Zantzinger shouted at her, "When I order a drink, I want it now, you black bitch!" Hattie said she was hurrying as best she could, but Zantzinger struck her across the head and shoulders with his cane. She shouted for help and slumped against the bar, looking dazed. "That man has upset me so," she told a fellow worker who came to help her. "I feel deathly ill." Her speech was slurred and she collapsed. A hotel official called for an ambulance, and for the police. When the wooden cane was found later, it was broken in three places.

The ambulance took the unconscious Hattie Carroll to the Baltimore Mercy Hospital. The police arrested Zantzinger and charged him with assault. As they escorted him out through the hotel lobby, the policemen were attacked by Zantzinger and by his wife. Patrolman Warren Todd received multiple bruises on his legs; Zantzinger received a black eye.

Zantzinger and his wife were taken to the Pine Street police station, where Jane Elson Duvall Zantzinger was charged with disorderly conduct and her husband with the same offence, plus two charges of assault "by striking with a wooden cane" Ethel Hill and Hattie Carroll. Mrs Zantzinger was released on providing a $28 collateral.

William Zantzinger was held overnight in police custody. He appeared in the Central Municipal Court the following morning, still wearing tails and a carnation, though without his white bow-tie. He pleaded not guilty to the charges. Judge Albert H. Blum had left instructions that he was to be notified if Hattie Carroll's condition worsened, but at 9.15 that same morning, while the hearing was in progress, Hattie died, never having regained consciousness. The suspected cause of death was a brain haemorrhage caused by a blow to the head. News of her death didn't reach the court, however, and in the meantime, Zantzinger had been released on $600 bail. When the police were told of Hattie Carroll's death, a warrant for his re-arrest was issued, this time on charges of homicide. When the police from Charles County went to the Mount Victoria farm, some 70 miles south of Baltimore, neither of the Zantzingers was at home. The police therefore put out an APB, and Zantzinger was soon apprehended and charged with first and second degree homicide. It was the first time in the history of the state of Maryland that a white man had been accused of murdering a black woman. Charles County in Maryland was first settled in the 1600s and the white landowners set about making fortunes for themselves by setting up huge tobacco plantations and working them with black slaves. Despite emancipation, conditions changed little over the next 350 years: "In Southern Maryland," it was written in the Maryland Writers Project guide to the state, published in 1940, "the Negro lives under much the same conditions his ancestors knew . . . " Segregation was strictly enforced well into the 1960s - indeed the schools weren't fully integrated until 1967. At the time of Hattie Carroll's murder, which Bob Dylan read about on his way home from the Martin Luther King March On Washington, feelings of righteousness and indignation were running high. On trial in Maryland was 350 years' worth of history, tradition, no matter how bloody or obscene. It was a case of white against black, rich against poor, master against servant. Zantzinger's defence requested that the trial should not take place in Baltimore, where anti-segregationists had been active for some time, but in the more "neutral" territory of Hagerstown. And so it was. Zantzinger's defence was a simple one - he was drunk at the time, so drunk that he didn't even remember hitting anyone, his wife, a policeman, let alone a black barmaid. Furthermore, the defence contended, Hattie Carroll was, after all, a large woman, an overweight woman, who had a history of high blood pressure. She could have suffered a fatal stroke at any time. The fact that she did so after being beaten about the head by William Zantzinger's cane was just one of those unfortunate coincidences. He was just a victim of circumstances.

The three judges weren't impressed. Zantzinger was guilty, they concluded, but not of first-degree, nor indeed, second-degree murder; they found him guilty of manslaughter and deferred sentence until August, when Zantzinger was sent to prison with a six-month sentence. With time off for good behaviour, he was home in time for Christmas, and though the sentence outraged the black activists in the area, and moved Bob Dylan to write his song, most of Zantzinger's friends in Charles County thought that the whole thing had been blown out of all proportion, that Billy had got a bum rap. He didn't have any difficulty at all settling back into Charles County society.

He ran the tobacco farm for awhile, then went into real estate. He moved up-county, to Waldorf, then to a two-acre property in Port Tobacco where he lives today. He had three children, divorced his first wife and married a second time. For a while he ran a nightclub in La Plata; he also opened a small weekends-only antiques shop and, as W & Z Realty of White Plains, Maryland, set himself up as a valuer and auctioneer. He was active with the Chamber of Commerce and in 1983 was elected Chairman of the board of trustees of the Realtors Political Action Committee of Maryland. Billy Zantzinger was a popular local personality - everybody liked him, liked his open sociability. When reporter Peter Carlson asked after him in Charles County, he found that Zantzinger still had a whole bunch of friends:

"He's a very likable person; Billy is Billy . . . he's a free spirit type of person," said Senator Jim Simpson, a friend for 15 years. "He'd give you the shirt off his back. He's always smiling," said Mike Sprague, who told Carlson that he thought the Hattie Carroll case had been distorted by the media, and by Bob Dylan's song: "They made it sound like he was Rhett Butler, riding around on a white horse with a whip. He was just an unfortunate victim of his times, because in the '60s, with integration going on, that played well." One other thing caused Sprague to laugh - the fact that Carlson pointed out to him that William Zantzinger's name was frequently to be found in the local newspapers, in the lists of local residents who didn't pay their property taxes. "Billy has been toasted for delinquent property taxes just about every year," Sprague told Carlson, "but there are five pages of people who do that - Billy just happens to be one of them."

However, on April 24, 1991, a front-page story in the Maryland Independent written by reporter Kristi Hempel, revealed that though Zantzinger had been regularly collecting rents on some beat-up old wooden shacks in Patuxent Woods which were homes to several negro families, he hadn't actually owned them since 1986, when the county had foreclosed on him because of his failure to pay his property taxes. Indeed, not only had Zantzinger continued to collect rents for the next five years, he'd actually raised the rents to $200 per month, despite the fact that the hovels had no running water, no toilets and no heating; Zantzinger had even, in the Spring of 1991, taken one tenant, John Savoy, a 61-year-old negro who lived on welfare, to court for non-payment of his rents. And Zantzinger had won the case, the court ordering the hapless Savoy to pay his supposed landlord $240. But Kristi Hempel's story stirred things up for Zantzinger, and re-opened a lot of old wounds.

The dreadful living conditions of the tenants in Patuxent Woods were widely held to be shameful, not only to Zantzinger, but to all of Maryland; Zantzinger was denounced as an exploitative villain, who should be called to account at the earliest possible opportunity; but there were those who knew the way things worked who predicted that Billy, who still had plenty of friends and high office relations in the politics of Maryland, was likely to go unpunished. One person, however, who was determined that Zantzinger wouldn't get away with it, was 40-year-old Connie Dunbar, who'd worked with a church-based group called SMASH, Southern Maryland Area Self-Help, set up to try to help improve housing conditions for the under-privileged. When weeks went by with no apparent action against William Zantzinger, Connie Dunbar organised a protest demonstration to demand immediate action. "If Zantzinger gets away with this," she said, "we may as well pack up and move out, because that means that everybody else will get away with it."

Some time later, when Zantzinger still hadn't been arrested despite continuing protests from Connie Dunbar and SMASH, Washington Post reporter Peter Carlson went to see Mac Middleton, president of the county commissioners. "There's this eagerness to bring this man to justice," Middleton told Carlson, "and I can understand it. To the people in the housing advocates community, the guy is like a mass murderer walking around loose . . . They see him as somebody who abused people even before he lost the units in Patuxent Woods. He created that slum situation out there and then he lost it, and he continued to profit from it. They see him as someone who has lived off poor people, particularly poor black people . . ." Is that perception accurate? Carlson asked. "I think it's accurate," Mac Middleton replied.

On June 5, 1991, Zantzinger was finally served with a summons, charging him with "deceptive trade practice" - one count of making a "false and misleading oral and written statement", a misdemeanour rap which carried a maximum penalty of a year in jail and a $1,000 fine. The trial had been set for September 20, though the case didn't actually come to court until November 18, by which time Zantzinger was facing 50 misdemeanor counts of unfair and deceptive trade practises. He pleaded guilty, and in return the prosecutors agreed to drop one misdemeanor count and two counts of felony theft. As is the custom with American courts, sentencing was deferred. Under state sentencing guidelines, Zantzinger was facing a possible jail sentence of 25 to 50 years for the offences. On January 3, 1992, William Zantzinger was sentenced to 18 months in the county jail and fined $50,000. The fine was no problem, of course, and Circuit Court Judge Steven I. Platt recommended that corrections officials allow Zantzinger to serve his sentence in a work-release programme, working outside during the day, but spending his nights in jail. Platt also sentenced Zantzinger to 2,400 hours of community service, spread over 300 days during the five years following his release (probably in nine months' time) for local groups that advocate low-cost housing.

"I never intended to hurt anyone, ever, ever," Zantzinger said, pleading for leniency; "it's not my nature."

"Mr Zantzinger, I wish you the best of luck," said the judge, as Zantzinger was led away in handcuffs.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Dead Horse
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 08:43 PM

Now's the time for your tears.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: ddw
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 08:48 PM

Same shit, different day.

This is the kind of thing that makes me feel like 30 years of journalism has been such a terrible waste of time and effort.

david

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 09:33 PM

What a tale of privilege and depravity...

Money serves money. That was the truth then, and it is the truth now. No wonder Dylan sang with such outrage.

- LH

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Terry K
Date: 01 May 02 - 05:21 AM

Thanks Peter. I hated this guy as soon as I heard Dylan sing about him and this is such good background material to help our understanding. There must be something similar about Reuben Carter's case?

Cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Fossil
Date: 01 May 02 - 06:56 AM

A seriously interesting post - no wonder I keep having to check out the Mudcat!

Thanks for the information. It seems that Bob Dylan was right on. While I'm not usually a vindictive man, I really hope the bastard Zantzinger gets his comeuppance, one day.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,Frogmore
Date: 01 May 02 - 07:22 AM

Quite a story. Unreported - and under-reported - stuff happens all the time, and everywhere. Here's my contribution: In 1976 I lived in Washington D.C. and was doing a duo folk/country act with a wonderful woman named Arlene (name changed for this story). Somehow, an agent set us up with a one-night gig in La Plata, Md. Used to playing small and jolly rooms in D.C. and Virginia where we were somewhat popular, we found ourselves setting up in a lounge with only a few people drinking, watching T.V., and hardly noticing us. We just assumed that it would be a good night to "rehearse with P.A." After a couple of sets, we had become friendly with the cocktail waitress who was bringing us a beer now and then. Not having much to do that night, she sat down with us and offered, "Do you know who owns this place?" We didn't, but she told us the owner was the notorious William Zantzinger. Well, since I was the driver that night, I didn't mind Arlene suddenly wanting a drink of hard liquor. And another... For our last (again practically unnoticed) set, we sang mostly Bob Dylan songs, even ones we hardly knew. We did not attempt "The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carrol." Arlene threw up in the parking lot as I loaded the speakers.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Ballyholme
Date: 01 May 02 - 08:28 AM

Amazing stuff. I've always thought "Hattie Carroll" was a great song but Martin Carthy's version renewed my interest several years ago.

I now live in Fairfax, VA and have a friend who has a weekend home in the La Plata area and I've spent quite a few weekends down there, mixing with the locals. I didn't know that Zantzinger came from the area and I've now wondering - have I been in his bar/restaurant; have I unknowingly met the guy? Scarey.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 May 02 - 11:09 AM

Did Hattie Carroll's family succeed in Civil Court? Or did any of his other victims sue? Just sent my dues to Southern Poverty. Mary

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Peter T.
Date: 01 May 02 - 11:39 AM

I started the thread hoping someone might be able to give us an update since 1991. A search/scan didn't reveal anything immediately. yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Ballyholme
Date: 01 May 02 - 11:47 AM

A William Zantzinger is listed on a state of Maryland website as a tax delinquent (http://www.comp.state.md.us/initiatives/morinitiatives/delinquent.asp). I assume this list is current.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Ballyholme
Date: 01 May 02 - 11:53 AM

Another searce of Maryland auctioneers turned this up: William D. Zantzinger Route 301 P.O. Box 185 White Plains, MD 20695 PH 301-843-6300 301-645-2300 FAX [phone] E-mail: [e-mail]

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Peter T.
Date: 01 May 02 - 02:50 PM

Gotta love the web. yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 May 02 - 04:27 PM

Didn't La Plata just get flattened by a tornado? Rats - MISSED AGAIN!

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,Frogmore
Date: 01 May 02 - 04:31 PM

The tornado was looking for him, but maybe his family is so influential they can even control the weather. I recall La Plata and Port Tobacco as having some of the drunkest humans I've ever seen. And I've seen em.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 02 - 08:40 PM

And here's a map.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 01 May 02 - 09:44 PM

In '64 (or whatever) some friends of mine were intent on trying a halucinogenic preparation we'd heard about in an article by Timothy Leary. These guys and gals ground up several packages of Pearly Gates and Heavenly Blue morning glory flower seeds (bought over the counter at Amling's Flowerland in Chicago) just as instructed to by Mr. Leary's article. They drank this stuff mixed in orange juice while Bob Dylan sang "The Lonesome Death Of Hattie Carroll" at full volume. As the concoction took effect, these folks were transported into the action of that fine song. To this day, I can "VIVIDLY" recall how pissed off we were as Geetz Romo (not his real name) danced around the room yelling at the top of his lungs, "I'm gonna kill that cane-happy son-of-a-bitch !! I'm gonna kill that cane-happy son-of-a-bitch !!"

Ah, nostalgia !!! Were those days really as good as we remember 'em?

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 May 02 - 11:39 PM

Pearly Gates and Heavenly Blue? I just bid on these on Ebay. A 4Her is selling them. HMMMM.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: rich-joy
Date: 02 May 02 - 06:38 AM

can this be the SAME "morning glory" plant (purpley-blue flower) that is DEVASTATING huge areas of our native vegetation in SE Queensland (Australia) by choking?????? (Ipomoea indica, family Convolvulacae)

I can STILL be moved by Judy Collins' version of Hattie Carroll (the only one I ever heard ...)
R-J

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 02 May 02 - 10:49 PM

Hey, folks,----don't do anything like that now. That was 40 years back. We were nuts in the 60s. Since then additives have been added to those seeds that make one quite ill if they are ingested.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,Frogmore
Date: 02 May 02 - 11:54 PM

Isn't it interesting that this thing can go from a homicide reporte to my generation by the young Bob Dylan - to a health warning about mind-expanding temptations for folks in 2002? And what I mostly saw in Zantzinger's Zalloon in La Plata was bourbon whisky and bored old country boys. I've often said I didn't really get into folk music for the money - it's the stories! Gawd!

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Ballyholme
Date: 03 May 02 - 01:58 PM

OK, I'm dying to know. Was there a juke box in Zantzinger's Zalloon in La Plata? Did it have any Dylan?

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 03 May 02 - 02:20 PM

Art,

There was a long time morning radio guy here in the Toronto area who went by Geets Romo. Started as engineer, but ended up on air. Could it be the same guy?

The first time I heard "The Lonesome Death..." I was hoping it was something that Bob made up (I was three when it happened), but quickly figured out it wasn't. I wonder if Zantzinger would have got off so lightly today.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,Frogmore
Date: 03 May 02 - 03:40 PM

Response to Ballyholme: Now you're asking a lot from a brain that's possibly damaged from the Florida Sun, too many 4 AM picking sessions, and the passing of time in general. Jukebox? I can't remember. I'll ask my old singing partner who now lives in North Georgia. If there was a box it was likely filled with ol George Jones, Merle, and the crappiest pop songs of the day. I doubt that W.Z. was much of a "Bob-Head." I happen to own a 1958 Seeburg that I rent out for private parties and I can stock the sucker with anything you want - Howling Wolf, Louis Armstrong, Bill Monroe, or Madonna. The irony is that the box makes more for an evening's work than I do as a musician. Ha!

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Ballyholme
Date: 03 May 02 - 04:11 PM

Well, that's machines for you. Success goes to their heads. It's like when I go to a bar and see a solo performer who uses a drum machine. I'm never quite sure if I'm applauding the performer or the machine.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Amos
Date: 03 May 02 - 09:32 PM

Hell, they made ya ill if you ingested them even in the 60's!! But it was fine if you managed to suppress the heaves long enough for the trip to start!! (This is an "I didn' t inhale" report, second-hand, of course....).

A

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Melani
Date: 03 May 02 - 11:46 PM

Many seeds meant for gardening have mercury added as a preservative. Don't eat 'em.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,Frogmore
Date: 04 May 02 - 01:31 AM

I feel responsible for bringing this thread back to where it started. Certain priveleged people get away with...........murder. Sometimes. Zantzinger did as far as I know. They did when I was young, before I was born, and even now. You know of things in your town and I know of things in mine. People consider me a jolly guy - they see me and my pals singing and picking in their pubs. But we need to keep on doing whatever it takes to maintain our Constitutional and human rights. Voting, registering new voters, getting scoundrels out of office, and.....writing songs such as Dylan's "The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carrol." Go back to Woody Guthrie, John Steinback, and others. I hope I sense a new activism going on. I enjoy amusing people with my stories and songs but I am seriously angry about things locally - and nationally - and internationally. Since I was a teenager, Bob Dylan has been an important example to me. The power of the pen, the urgent strum of the guitar, the impassioned voice. I hope many will take this long-ago Zantzinger atrocity to heart and be inspired to take any kind of action against arrogance and bigotry in your town or city. This is the most "preachy" I've been on the mudcat, but that's the mood I'm in tonight. I love the old blues song "You see me laughin' - laughin' just to keep from cryin'." Ballyholm, you sound like a funny guy (or bloke?). Let me know if you come to Florida. I ain't got no drum machine.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 04 May 02 - 12:12 PM

Steve,

GEETS ROMO was the name of a character in a comedy LP from the 1960s called How To Speak Hip. The record was done by DEL CLOSE (of Chicago's Second City improv comedy fame) and JOHN BRENT. It was done as a parody of the "learn to speak" various languages records from that era. One guy portrayed a real "beatnik" and the other was the "square" who was trying to sound hip even though he was an un-savable nurd. It was a hilarious record I thought. Wish I still had it.

If your guy took that name, he had good taste. It just popped into my head right at this moment, after all this time, so I used it in my post.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 04 May 02 - 12:16 PM

Art,

Thanks, he was around for years as part of a very popular morning show team "Pete & Geets". He did some bad accents and created McTavish McRomo, Beans Rontash and a few others. Retired a few years ago.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 04 May 02 - 12:26 PM

Yes, Amos, there were (I've been told) other less than pleasant side effects. But when the entire room I was in---all four walls and the ceiling and floor----became a padded cell with at least 10,000 female breasts----well, it was worth it. Let's just say that it was fun to be so out of it I was bouncing off the walls.

Love,

Art

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 04 May 02 - 12:34 PM

And Bobby was singin' about Zantzinger all the way through it.

There was more, but this is enough...

Art

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: voyager
Date: 04 May 02 - 01:40 PM

Washington Post Magazine article August 4, 1991 by
Peter Carlson has been summarized by the Internet
Dylan 'zine - TELEGRAPH here -->

Zanzinger link

voyager
"bravely trying to insert blue-clicky thing"

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Peter T.
Date: 05 May 02 - 12:39 PM

No, really, voyager? yours, Peter T.

Subject: william zant zinger
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 02 - 01:19 AM

Help!! I know I read an item about William Zan Zinger on Mudcat in the last month or so, but everyting I've tried can't retreive it now. Anyone lend a hand on this one?

---

Messages from multiple threads combined.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: william zant zinger
From: Big Tim
Date: 30 May 02 - 01:47 AM

Try under; Zantzinger

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 05:24 PM

Night Hawk HE IS A
LIVE AND GETTING FAT IN CHAPATICO MD SAINT MARYS COUNTY MARYLAND

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 29 Nov 02 - 10:57 AM

The Zim spake true, folks:

"Money doesn't talk, it swears"

Wassail!

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:08 PM

I've kind of lost track of Dylan's stuff over the years, but heard this song for the first time on the rcently released 1964 live concert CDs. Is Dylan still writing about this kind of thing? What does he write about Bush, Iraq and so on?

He's playing in Stormont next month...might go and hear him...maybe... or is he just another rich pop star now? Would it be worthwhile?

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,Ballyholme
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:59 PM

I've always regarded myself as a Dylan fan, JTT but if I'm honest I have to say I've never enjoyed his live performances. I've seen him three times (including Slane and Dundonald Ice Bowl) and he's been very disappointing. On both those occasions, Van the Man saved his ass by joining him for a few songs and I wouldn't be surprised if he turns up again at Stormont. Having said that, I still love most of Dylan's old stuff.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 12 May 04 - 04:22 PM

Hmm. I went to hear him in the Savoy in Dublin in nineteen sixty ummm, with my auntie; he'd just gone electric and I was outraged and deafened, but my auntie, a quiet civil servant, enjoyed it a lot. Well, I don't really have the money to be going off to Stormont watching concerts right now anyway.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,DylanFan Visalia California
Date: 05 Jun 04 - 04:18 AM

One thing about Bob Dylan's music is that it is written in such a way as to be always timeless. What he wrote about 40 years ago still pertains to today as it also did 2,000 years ago. Basically, as another hero of mine Tom Waits wrote in a song, "you can put all the goodness of mankind in a thimble and still have room for you and me".

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 05:33 PM

Billy Zantzinger is a slumlord and continues to bully poor people.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,Cinnabar
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 01:16 PM

Oh well the times are not changing. Maybe we will see him in the next world and hopefully he won"t be late.

Thanks

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: DADGBE
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 02:20 PM

Check out Mother Jones magazine Nov./Dec 2004, Page 42 - "Legacy of a Lonesome Death" by Ian Frazier for more on the subject.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 04:43 PM

The more things change...

The original(?) line that I recall was:

You can take all the sincerity in show biz, stuff it into a flea's navel, and still have enough room left over for 3 carroway seeds and an agent's heart!

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 05:04 PM

Thanks for the reference to Mother Jones mag. Is it on the Net? (It's kind of hard to get in the north of Germany, and I'd really like to see the article.)

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: artbrooks
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 05:24 PM

Article here.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 07:20 PM

Thanks, Art and DADGBE!

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 07:58 PM

http://www.stmarystoday.com/february_2005_news_stories.htm

Seems poor old William Z is still alive and well and had his triple-garage burn down, shame that.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 02:49 AM

Fascinating, never knew it was a true story.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 01:44 PM

There is a link there to an article that appeared in Time when it happened. The sentence still sickens me today. Nice that they gave him time to get his tobacco crop in.

Time Magazine

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,Stitt
Date: 30 Jan 06 - 06:08 PM

Art: The album of which you speak, How to Speak Hip, is online at
http://www.howtospeakhip.com/
Dig it baby!

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 30 Jan 06 - 08:23 PM

Thanks for the HOW TO SPEAK HIP site, but it plays the old record so haltingly and with so many gaps that it is impossible to listen to.

Art

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 08:14 PM

It seems that Mr. Z is still exploiting those who can least defend themselves, not paying his taxes and in general being an ***hole. I wonder if God gets even with pricks.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Peace
Date: 11 Feb 06 - 12:52 AM

Here . . . .

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 12:55 PM

He is truly a peace of work. Do you know how they say that God gets even in the end????????? There are those who are counting on it.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,mo'd
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 05:27 PM

My parents were at that party in 1963. Zantzinger hit my mother (who was young, white & pregnant with me - might explain a few things!) After he saw Z. hit Mrs. Carroll, my father took the cane away from Zantzinger, broke it and hid it under the table. Dad was all set to testify against Zantzinger, but he pled out. This story has always intriqued me and made me proud of my father.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 05:33 PM

Good for your dad. I know him more current and above all the evil he has and in some ways still does, I get the impression that he thinks he is the victim. Did your dad say whether he believes that hit is what really killed her as some believe or a lesser hit but the stress caused everything to go downhill???? My understanding second hand is that he tells people it was a tap. There are many articles that are more current about the crap he does. Go to the Washington Post and do a search. There are even some articles in the Baltimore Sun. How happy can this man be to be such a S**t to people.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,vag
Date: 02 Mar 06 - 02:25 PM

you guys should do some research and get some real facts.


http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/slant/2004/11/10_200.html


If that's not enough, speak to someone who was there. Even the servers.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 02 Mar 06 - 03:57 PM

I have read that article and it is what I believe happened. However, there are those ( not me) who think he got a bad rap. That is crap. I mean how bad is it to kill someone, go to jail for 6 months and carry on life as before. AS I said I have heard that he has said he only tapped her. What real facts are you speaking of???? I would love to have more to read but from all the searches I have done they all say about the same thing. I am familiar with this man and I dont have anything positive to say but there are those who think he is wonderful. I know he has a history of not paying taxes, losing the property and not informing his tenants thus getting every dime from them before they are left without a place to stay.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 11:39 PM

i live in washington county. the prosecutors son in this case seems to be very proud of his fathers role in it. david pool. he wears it as a badge of honor, even mentionig it in the scmucks obituary. can anyone shed any facts on the collusion that went on to only give zan. a 6 month sentence. obviosly the racist.fix was in.corruption runs in this mans family, anyone else have anything on bruce pool. the prosecutors son, jokerman can you hear me at all?

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 21 Mar 06 - 05:30 PM

It looks like Zantzinger is up to his old habits. He just hasnt gotten caught yet. I do not understand what it is that the worst of people continue to get away with everything and the bastards live forever.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,Mr. Brightside
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 04:46 PM

Rich white guys getting away with killing people needlessly? In America? NOOOO WAY! I don't believe it....except for the rich white guy in the Whitehouse...

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Big Tim
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 03:20 AM

Just seen (on DVD) Christy Moore's version of the song. Not too impressed. He puts a lot of feeling into it but why on earth does he mess about with the already perfect lyrics?

eg 'cops' become 'police', etc !

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 10:28 PM

My understanding is that he has houses that are in foreclosure but are still rented. Hmmmmmm do we think he mentioned to his tenents that the sheriff could post eviction notices and they would be homeless??????? Doubt it. I wonder if when he meets his maker he gets the boot to hell.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,Tomeboy
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 06:50 PM

Oct. 2006 . . . I live in County Chuck (Charles County) I still see Billy around once in a while. I've been a Dylan fan since back when "smokin' and spacin' was a full time enjoyment and I was here when all of the Hattie Carroll problems went down. I guess I have offered the tape of the "Hattie Carroll incident" song to as many people locally as would listen. I've not spoken to Bill about the incident, but you can be sure that I think about it any time I've seen him. He is an over-weight, over-moneyed, hard-drinkin' guy that has gotten away with more than the average person and now he banks on the continued success of "not having to pay for it" whatever it may be! It WILL CATCH-UP WITH HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: bobad
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 07:28 PM

Just discovered this at Wikipedia "The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll and thought it pretty cool:

External links

    * The lyrics of The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll at bobdylan.com
    * slightly extended version of the story and updates on the progress of William Zantzinger
    * Zantzinger's mother limits terms of his inheritance

The second link is this thread.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,ginger williams
Date: 07 Nov 06 - 02:29 PM

I was in my 20's when Zantzinger MURDERED Hattie Carroll. A product of the '40s, '50s and '60s, it was all I could do to keep from throwing up.Thank God I never have any reason to go to LaPlata or Charles County.I work for a local black history museum and this information on Carroll/Zantzinger is going to be part of our black history archives...both as a history and a lesson.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 08:22 PM

I know a woman who is working for him right now! He still hasn't changed. She complains that he yells and bitches at her for no reason! It all comes back in the end! Make no mistake that God will be the judge, and time has not seemed to change him!

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 12:36 PM

Charles County is and always will be the good ole boys kind of place. He gets away with everything because of fear. Fear of what reprocussions will occur if he is crossed. From what I hear he has money, power and a lawyer on retainer. He treats people like dirt with no remorse. He doesnt pay his taxes on his rentals and they get sold at a tax sale. Does he tell his tenants that they should look for another place?????? No. He rents them knowing the sheriff will show up one day and evict those who can least afford to move. You can see what he does by the tax records.

I wonder how many will show up for his funeral???? I wonder how many will jump for joy that the old bastard finally got what was coming to him????

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 12:44 PM

I really couldn't give a shit about him or his kind.

And I'm a Christian too (born again)

Tom

I try and show him love and forgiveness but then no I just hope he turn out to be an old bitter man and very much alone.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,PMO
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 06:09 PM

This is all supposition and hearsay learned in bits and pieces from my mother who later told me to stop dredging up old tales about the family. Her tone of voice and accompanying facial expressions lead me to believe all the gossip I overheard from the whispering in my family (an old Baltimore Society family that took part in events like the Emerson Hotel tragedy). It seems that my most cherished and beloved uncle,a lawyer and thoroughbred horse breeder out in Howard County,in his early thirties when Zantzinger was 24, took Zantzinger out to his farm to "protect" him from all the hubub caused by the "bogus" charges and in reality obstructed the search for him by hiding him for several days in hopes it would blow over. Not that any of these society people had anything to worry about once the fix was in at the courthouse. I also noticed that WZ's middle name was Devereux. I wasn't stupid.....I had cousins whose last name was Devereux...."must be a coincidence" Ma said with her eyes focusing on the far away nowhere.

I think it was at that moment I decided to change heroes...thanks Bob.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: bobad
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 06:54 PM

Thank you for sharing that PMO, seeking the truth often takes courage.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 03:53 AM

I read the piece suggested by vag, http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/slant/2004/11/10_200.html


but honestly, all those people saying "he's such a nice man" and "he gives people a place to live when no one else will" and "he isn't prejudiced, he drinks with black folks" sound exactly like anyone describing any exploiter.

Renting substandard housing that you don't own for high rents to desperate people, and doing no maintenance, is not a charitable act.

Having a pleasant, easy manner doesn't make one a nice man.

And drinking with people doesn't make you their friend.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: balladeer
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 12:09 PM

I was a young folksinger in the sixties, a time when being a girl with a guitar was enough to get you some pretty goood gigs. In those days Bob Dylan and Len Chandler were my heroes (duh!) and when Bob put out an album I would grab it and learn songs in the morning that I presented on stage the same night. Hattie Carroll was one of half a dozen Bob songs that stayed in my repertoire for thirty years, including the two I spent singing all over Britain - 1964 and 65. (Martin Carthy and I were friends then, but I don't remember him singing any Dylan songs. Mind you, maybe I wouldn't have noticed. For me Martin's magic was in the way he discovered/invented/interpreted elaborate versions of the bloodiest Child ballads.) I still sing Hattie Carroll because it still speaks to me of the continuing North American caste system. True, we don't bow down to lords and ladies, but we have our subtle ways of letting people know they are not worthy to sit at our tables. Without a snobbery based culture to support him, Billy Zantzinger could not thrive. I fell in love with The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll. It epitomized everything I hoped to become as a songwriter. I once wrote a whole essay on the line, "William Zantzinger killed poor Hattie Carroll with a cane that he twirled round his diamond finger." I thought it was a miracle of succinct descriptiveness, that it told us everything we needed to know about William, that it was the best single sentence I had read anywhere outside William Shakespeare, my first love. I'm grateful to have come upon this thread because it has reminded me of why I write.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,La Plata Lady
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 10:18 AM

I can tell you all about him, he is still a mean and nasty man, and what black man, or woman that works for him, is going to say anything bad about him, if it means his or her job? Most likely the only one they can get. He has black men and women working for him, and talks to them like dogs, and they take it, because they are all unable to get a job anywhere else. He screams, rants and raves all the time.
His most famous saying, while walking up to you, in a threating way, right in your face is:
"I don't GET ulcers, I GIVE them."
Then has the nerve to look at his "slaves" and says "right?"
and of course, they agree.

Today he has his office in Bel Alton Md called Action Properties, off 301 on Chapel Point Road, first house on the right.

The real story is, the man is, in my opinion, STILL DANGEROUS.
He is a BULLY, a Brute, and is as bad as they come.

He has threatened me, scared me, and made my life miserable.

But rest asured, he is about to find out, that there are some that will not let him continue with his threats, and constant harassment and brutality of innocent human beings.

I am a forgiving person, and would never be vindictive in any way, however, you sometimes have to stop a Bully from hurting others, and that is EXACTLY what is about to happen!

I will post again, AFTER THE COURT DATE.

Pray that God will finally put a stop to this mans insane activity, even if it's only because he IS insane.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 08:10 AM

Martin Carthy still includes the song in his live set.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: balladeer
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 08:50 AM

This morning I took the time to read this thread from top to bottom, and once again I'm stunned at the power of the internet. Here are people who experienced first hand the climate in which this horrible story played out, speaking with people like me, who felt the power of the events only through the force of Bob Dylan's writing. Thank you all for coming forward with your memories of that terrible time and your first-hand accounts of life after the lonesome death of Hattie Carroll.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 11:10 AM

Google photos and a more current (but non-related) news story (garage fire, story near the bottom of the left column). Google article search.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,BigDaddy
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 10:06 PM

I first heard this song in junior high school here in Michigan in the mid sixties. My wonderful enlightened social studies teacher, Dick Westhoven, brought the Dylan album in and played selections, along with other irreverent choices like Tom Lehrer. I have never been the same. However, I mistakenly thought the song described an event that must have happened around the turn of the century. I only recently heard a story on public radio about it. My mind is blown to think that this creep is still alive. Let's keep track of his fate and piss on his grave when he's gone. A fitting memorial, I think. Better yet if he knows about it before he shuffles off the mortal coil.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 01:11 PM

My best to you LaPlata lady. I hope all goes well for you. My court date is in a few months with this asshole and you would think for what it costs to keep a lawyer on retainer he would just do the right thing and pay those that he knows is right.

BUT, he has changed our date so dont be too shocked if he gets yours changed. All I hope for now is that he doesnt die before I get what is owed to me.


Good Luck

Subject: My Landlord
From: GUEST,Me
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 05:54 PM

He is a Landord Still - 2007 - He is my current lanlord. Still Shady

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,PMO
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 06:02 PM

Please see my thread above about my uncle hiding WZ from the authorities after the murder at the Emerson. I have been wondering if during those few days, my uncle helped WZ figure out his legal strategy since he was obviously called by WZ's family to "help out".

I also wonder if he was WZ's lawyer during the trial or hearing. Does anyone out there know who represented WZ in 1963?

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 11:12 AM

If he is still your landlord, you might want to check to see if he paid his property taxes and if not check to see if the property was bought at a tax sale. There are a 3 0r 4 that I recall that he is renting but lost in a tax sale. This means these people can get notice to vacate or they will just be evicted. All of this is public record or you can call the courthouse and they will tell you if it was sold. He is famous for not paying property taxes. He loses the house in a tax sale. Still collects rent. But never mentions any of this to his tenants so they might make housing arrangements. Hell, there is an article throught the Post that he didnt own some land in Charles County (the county bought it at a tax sale) and yet he collected rent from very poor tenants for a couple of years when he didnt even own the property! He even sued a tenant for non payment and won!!!!!!!!!! He DIDNT own the property!!!!!!!!! This was in the 80s I think. A zebra doesnt change his stripes in my opinion.

And yet these people will live forever. Go figure.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 11:28 AM

I think I linked to that article about his collecting rents he's not entitled to.

You'd be surprised what turns up in a Google search. Most likely since his name is in the thread title this discussion will come up. If you're in litigation be sure you keep your identity OUT of this thread. If we can use Google so can his lawyers.

SRS

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,Dylan head
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 12:37 PM

Bob Dylan recorded this song on "The times they are a changing" album, with just himself which came out in 1964. The live version on the "Live 1975" Rolling Thunder Review tour album is a better version in my opinion. On the live 1975 version he uses not only words, but also music and many instruments in a very heart felt gut wrenching way to get the message across. I recommend this Live 1975 album.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,Me in Brussels
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 10:43 AM

I hope the guy gets a lot of hate mail, does anyone have an adress for him? I'll send a letter every few months, just to make sure he's knows there are a lot of us who hate his kind!!

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,AnonYmous
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 10:49 AM

I have a question? How is this guy getting away with all this. My roommate and I are getting screwed royally. I am amazed at reading this site as too how many people he is actually screwing over.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: bobad
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 10:55 AM

The Old Boy's network may have something to do with it.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 03:53 PM

He has a lawyer and lots of money to not give a crap. Also, he doesnt pay his tax bills, loses the property and still collects money til the residents are booted. We were in one of his POS rentals. We are gone and thank god for that. He could care less about his properties or repairs or tenents and if you dont pay it is no skin off his back to take you to court knowing that the laws are such that you will owe him in the end. Finish your lease as soon as possible and get hte hell out.

If there is a god he will eventually pay upon his lonely passing where noone will mourn him.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,Smiggie
Date: 05 May 07 - 04:41 PM

William "Billy" Zantzinger is currently the Commodore of the Cobb Island Yacht Club in Cobb Island, MD. CIYC is a member of the Potomac River Yacht Club Association, making him "Important?". If you would like to meet him attend, the Cobb Island Days Festival June 16th and 17th on Cobb Island in Southern Maryland off Hwy 301. Or hang out at Shymansky's Bar at Shymansky's Marina on the land side of the island where he keeps his boat.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,Bloggzy
Date: 08 May 07 - 07:05 PM

Unfortunately i'm from england so i won't be able attend this Cobb Island Days Festival. But if i could attend it, i would be taking a wooden cane.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,peto
Date: 28 May 07 - 05:00 PM

lighten up guys, the poor lady in question died not from her injuries (no marks of the toy cane were found on her body) but from the verbals and the stress, she was a heart attack waiting to happen. He has paid his dues, many-fold since Dylan's song highlighted the case

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 30 May 07 - 11:19 AM

I dont think it is just his past that has people pissed. It is the fact that he is still a horrid man that continues to be a bully to those he feels are beneath him. His own employees are given ulcers (metaphor) by him as stated by a previous post. How would you feel if the law came to your house with an eviction notice becasue he didnt pay his taxes and the house was sold at a tax sale and were never told????? This is how he works. He has a million dollar house but treats those who help pay for it like dirt. My opinion wont change and no he got nothing for his part. She left children behind and he went on to the social scene.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 02:11 PM

If you go to http://casesearch.courts.state.md.us, you can find out all you need to know about his past, present, and future. Just follow the instructions, and make sure to type his name in properly. It even gives you his address: Name: ZANTZINGER, WILLIAM D
Address: 9260 CHAPEL POINT ROAD City: BEL ALTON State:MD Zip Code:20611

This guy was scum back in 1963 and he's scum now. Hattie Carroll died of a brain haemorrhage caused by a blow to the head. Yeah she had health problems, but instead of dying in 1968, she was MURDERED in 1963. Instead of putting out a press release (which his wealthy parents and lawyers could have done) apologizing to the woman's family or the city of Baltimore, he just let it go like it was no big deal. To this day, he is breaking the law with deliquent taxes, renting out properties he doesn't even own anymore, renting out POS properties that don't even pass inspection, and still people try to support him. He's a scumbag, a rich stuck-up shit, and most of all, a murderer.

I don't ever plan to meet him, because I'll make a scene and speak my mind, to the point where the old guy gets so pissed he has a heart attack. However, please, if anyone does have the displeasure of meeting him, take a wooden cane with you for me!

---

Please note that anonymous posting is no longer allowed at Mudcat. Use a consistent name [in the 'from' box] when you post, or your messages risk being deleted.
Thanks.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 02:18 PM

Theres a fellow from Brighton,England,by the name of Van h..........
who sounds similiar.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,Paul186
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 02:45 AM

Com'on. Zant-Pants isn't the villian. It's a racist
America and a class discriminating bunch who allows
injustice to happen.What's with the Maryland courts?

The Massie case in Hawaii was even more vile.

"Progress" has been racism and socio-economic bias
going underground and outwardly less visible,
but all that crap is still there.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 02:48 PM

Well I am going to carry on singing 'Hattie Carroll' regardless .

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 02:49 PM

AND clocking the odd 100th

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 10:42 PM

Take a ride down 301 South past La Plata. When you get down where there is a hotel on the right just before the boat trailer place on the right. If you make a right just before that hotel, he has a property managment place there evicting poor helpless old women and pregnant mothers. Think he still hasn't lear'nt anythin'.

Good Luck in Purgatory!

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,poodlesandwich
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 06:33 PM

I think Dylan's song makes the case seem too fair, it says that he got booked in for first degree murder, thats what should have happened maby!

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,Crazytrucker
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 12:47 PM

I was 12 when I first heard this song. I was just a boy with my head up my arse living in the rural UK with barely a political thought in my head. The reason I have stumbled into here is that I am at the moment transferring all my old vynyl into digital MP3's and one of those albums is 'The Times They Are-A-Changing'. Now in my late 50's, listening to those songs I hadn't heard in years once again conjured up my own awakening to the injustices that take place in all societies, beit the Civil Rights Movement, Atomic Bombs, Communism, even unrequited love. Having read a fair bit about Dylan I know he can be a bit of a shit, likable, but still a shit nevertheless, stealing songs and passing them off as his own, fabricating a past life that never existed, if not fabricating then at least embellishing it.
You could say that it was this early Dylan that had a great influence on me and my later life: as a rebel against the established order, a righter of wrongs, a lifetime of socialism with a capital S, and a lifetime in the Trades Union movement. 'One Too Many Mornings' helped me pass several English exams as did the sleeve notes which my best friend and I unashamedly ripped off as 'all our own work'! I remember for the first time actually listening to the lyrics of Dylan's songs, something I rarely do these days, listen to the mindless pap of some spotty youth, or so called 'girl bands' LOL prancing about half naked pretending to be R&B singers. R&B my arse! The sense of injustice and futility that someone like Hattie Carrol could killed by such scum as Zantzinger with such a paltry sentence and that he today still lives!
Dylan lead me into stuff like Steve Biko/Nelson Mandella in Sth Africa, Cry Freedom, Mississippi Burning territory. Being a kid in the UK it was extremely difficult to find out about this stuff, certainly in schools, where at least one headmaster had me pegged as a 'left-wing subversive with anti-social tendencies', at 12!!!!
Now of course its so much easier to discover the truth behind these 'stories'. And of course more latterly some of the perpatrators of these horrific racial crimes are at last obtaining justice albeit 40 odd years too late. Jailing old men doesn't seem right, after all they lived their lives unlike those that they cut short, but I'll take justice anyway I can.
For me, Dylan hasn't done a thing since 'The Hurricane', and I have never forgiven him for going 'electric', but songs like 'The Lonsome Death Of Hattie Carrol', 'Master's Of War', 'One Too Many Mornings', 'Chimes Of Freedom' et al will for me now live on, digitally!
'Crazytrucker

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 01:21 PM

"In 2001, Zantzinger told Howard Sounes, in Down the Highway, the Life of Bob Dylan, "It's actually had no effect upon my life," but expressed scorn for Dylan, saying, "He's a no-account son of a bitch," and "He's just like a scum of a scum bag [sic] of the earth, I should have sued him and put him in jail." Zantzinger claims the song is unfounded, though it closely reflects the facts which led to his 1963 conviction. He has not attempted to prevent Dylan from performing it."

-sourced from the Wikipedia entry about The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll

The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,A Maryland Lawyer
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 06:06 PM

The Wikipedia entry on him has expanded quite a bit since most of these messages were left. Basically, the 1963 court sentenced Zantzinger to six months in county jail, but Bob Dylan sentenced him to life in infamy. International infamy.

Wikipedia about Zantzinger

Unfortunately, since most of the information here at Mudcat Cafe is anonymous, it cannot be added into the Wiki article. Even the fascinating first-person info, for instance the post above dated 23 Feb 06 about the poster's father taking the cane away and breaking it, can't be used because Wikipedia forbids original research. The only sources Wiki can use are verifiable PUBLISHED works, like news articles and books. For instance, if the poster's father gave an interview to a local paper, Wikipedia could quote that. But generally not quotes from blogs... go to Wiki and type WP:NOR in the search blank to see what's allowed, and WP:Verify.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,Gone away from there
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 07:18 PM

I had just recently move to Md. when this all happened. I often saw Billy and his wife in restaurants and fox hunting. He had a bad reputation for buying "killer horses" and riding them to death. The man was a walking time bomb. After their breakup his wife spent time hiding from him. He thought the Hattie Carrol thing was a joke and he would never be convicted. The slum landlord thing was another thing that he thought would never catch up with him. Actually, I know a few too many Southern Md. boys that are just like him.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 02:16 AM

Of all of the threads at Mudcat, odd that this one should attract so many outsiders. Or Mudcatters with odd guest noms-de-plume, but I don't think so.

Sorry if Mudcat isn't good enough for Wikipedia (isn't that a hoot!) but Mudcat was around first, and it's doing its own thing. And if you do a search at Mudcat on "Wikipedia," you'll find a helluva lot of folks on many threads telling reminding others that Wikipedia isn't a source to be relied upon, it's just a starting point. Too many cooks stirring that pot.

SRS

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,Mark Gjonaj
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 04:38 PM

wow such bullshit william Zantzinger is a criminal and a piece of shit

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,Tom Cooper
Date: 23 May 08 - 12:40 AM

Thanks to today's posting on the great "all things Bob Dylan"site, Expecting Rain.
Refers to quote from Zantzinger calling Bob a so and so SOB. So I googled said Zantzinger and here we have this amazing saga from people who where actually there in'63, those that have met and see him around, people still abused by him and fighting for justice in court.
Thanks to Expecting Rain many will be able to catch up with this amazing true life story. I don't know where I began to think that Dylan had embellished this story.And slurred a good man. There was no good man involved.Just power and corruptible seed.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: balladeer
Date: 24 May 08 - 09:09 AM

Bobby Dylan has certainly made sure the name Zantzinger lives on in infamy. I feel sorry for all those who are still sharing their lives, willingly or unwillingly, with the man who killed Hattie Carroll fifty-odd years ago.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:01 AM

I have to say, I did not hear the Dylan version first. Blasphemy, I know, but I heard it first by Phranc off her wonderful debut album Folksinger, which hardly gets a mention in music circles these days as does Phranc. Doesn't take anything away from the original version, it lead me to it. But she also Nagouchi, the Pope, able people who park in handicapped parking spaces (seriously) and classist insensitivity and depravity in general. Phranc displays in her version a worn sensitivity as powerful as the anger in Dylan's original version. I'm shocked that Zantzigers profile can't even be found on Wikipedia where you can find endless amounts of info on the likes of Anna Nicole Smith and Crazy Frog.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 07:59 PM

Just found an interesting article from a 2004 issue of Mother Jones which has updated info on this creep. click here. Thought some would find it of interest.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,the canadian
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 11:27 PM

I ALWAYS THOUGHT THE EVENT HAPPENED AT LEAST 60 YEARS AGO. FRIGHTENING. ONE CAN ONLY HOPE ZANTZINGER SOME FINE EVENING MEETS A LARGE, MUSCULAR GREAT-GREAT GRANDSON OF HATTIE CARROLL IN AN SECLUDED PLACE WHO HAPPENS TO BE CARRYING A LARGE CANE.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,Guest, NAV
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 11:53 AM

Just read this whole ordeal today. I've been a fan of Dylan's for a while now, but only really closely listened to the lyrics of "Hattie" in the movie "I'm Not There". This tempted me to do some research on the subject, which naturally lead to a lot of research. It was needed, as the 60s were a loooooong time before mine.
From the song I assumed this happened decades before the song was written. It was just the sort of feeling I received from it. That's obviously not the case at all, and wasn't even aware segregation was still a "big deal" in the early 60s.

It's very impressive this thread has been going on for more than 6 years as well.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,Daniel Waller
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 11:15 AM

Hattie Caroll was my Great Aunt.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 11:59 AM

Daniel...did you know her? It would be nice to know more about her.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 12:29 PM

I learned something interesting about "Lonesome Death of Hattie Caroll" only recently, probably from some bit of DVD "commentary" or "special features" accompanying one of the several recent Dylan films.

The song was written very shortly after the infamous Birmingham church bombing. When every other topical-songwriting folkie was trying to compose something about that particular event and the little girls who were killed, Bob chose instead to write about an entirely different instance of death-by-racial-injustice, in another locality, but (of course) at just about the same time.

One commentator's theory is that this approach may have served to indicate the universality of the problem, that the currently-infamous bombing was not an isolated incident.

Racial violence was not ancient history at the time of the civil rights revolution is the early-to-mid sizxties. The diehard segregationists were not willing to concede defeat willingly or easily, and perpetrated as much mayhem as they could before they inevitably faded into obsolesence.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:34 AM

William Zantzinger died Jan. 3, 2009.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,Bootlebarth
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 09:46 AM

'The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll' has always affected me emotionally, ever since 1964, so I don't listen to it often. Yesterday, Jan 3, I watched a very old Dylan video on youtube singing 'Hattie Carroll' on black and white television. I burst into tears and couldn't explain my reaction. Now we're told that Zantzinger died on that day.

For what it's worth, murder involves an intent to kill, or doing something that a reasonable person might expect could have a fatal outcome. My reading of events in 1963 is that Zantzinger - drunken, violent, racist bully that he was - had no intent to kill or even seriously hurt Hattie Carroll. His verbal and physical assaults on her were disgraceful and indefensible, and her death very probably resulted from them, but manslaughter was the correct charge. Whether the sentence should have been harsher is another matter.

No small culpability rests with other guests at the 'society gathering'. It seems that nobody intervened to stop a series of assaults by the drunken Zantzinger. Never forget that the best way to ensure that evil thrives is for other people to stand by and do nothing.

The only consolation from that tragic evening in 1963 would have been signs of remorse from Zantzinger and a mending of his ways. There's ample evidence in this thread and elsewhere that he didn't change. Bob Dylan's extraordinary song is the only good thing to have come from Hattie Carroll's death. I hope we can all agree here that we'd have been happier if Hattie had lived a full ration of days and the song had never been written.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,Folkways
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 09:53 AM

Billie Zantzinger died a few days ago (January 2009)

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 10:10 AM

I don't find an online mention or obituary. You'd think that would spark a little discussion. Post a link if you have one, please.

Thanks,

SRS

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 10:13 AM

There's a mention of it here

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 10:14 AM

A brief death notice at baynet.com.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 10:50 AM

Bootlebarth ~ Amen!

When I saw this venerable old thread title, my first thought was, "That thread will never die ~ or at least not until Zantzinger dies!" So I opened it up, and lo and behold . . . he is finally dead.

Good fucking riddance.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 01:33 PM

One of the few Bob Dylans songs I STILL sing ! I cant say that I would regret the passing of Mr Zantzinger !

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 09:52 PM

Have a heart and some compassion, he is someone's father, husband and brother. Rest in Peace Billy.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Effsee
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 11:07 PM

Guest, it's difficult to have any compassion for such a piece of shit that was Zantzinger! His family would probably agree! They are well rid of of him, as is the rest of us.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 03:16 AM

REST IN PEACE !!! he should be burning in hell FFS.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: The Vulgar Boatman
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 06:44 PM

Lost for words, I dredged the memory - there is an apt arabic saying, once quoted by T E Lawrence:
"May Allah greet you with shit on your face"
That does it for me.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Padre
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 09:44 PM

I hope that the moderator will finally close this thread - with the death of WZ there seems to be no need for continued vituperation, except for those who wish to show their 'superiority'

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 03:05 AM

A man who showed complete and utter contempt for his fellow human beings deserves no sympathy, and he never thought he'd done anything wrong anyway.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,Phil D, London
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 10:21 AM

Anyone know date and place of birth of Zantzinger?

Phil D

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST,KevBoyd
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 12:01 PM

I just found this

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 12:09 PM

And this

... and this

which doesn't always work so here's the URL:
http://www.rollingstone.com/rockdaily/index.php/2009/01/08/man-bob-dylan-made-infamous-with-the-lonesome-death-of-hattie-carroll-dies/

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 12:54 PM

His death is noted today in the New York Times.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 03:46 PM

Don't close this thread, please.

Now that Mr. Z is so recently dead, there are sure to be more contributions by more folks, and as always, some of them should prove to be enlightening. I know that many of the messages I've read here over the years have made me stop and think, and to develop an ever-more-nuanced overall picture of what really happened at that Baltimore hotel society gathering so many years ago, and about what's happened since then, too.

Has there ever been a Mudcat thread with more GUEST postings, or a higher percentage of them? Many "strangers" have Googled (or otherwise "sserached") for Zantzinger, or for Hattie Carroll, or for Dylan, been directed here, and then been moved to write something to us. There have been many different viewpoints, some more intelligent and interesting than others, and the whole spectrum has really been something to consider. Let's allow the process to continue for as long as people have anything to say about injustice ~ incuding those who feel that "Mr Billy" was himself victimized in some sense.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 08:23 PM

Interesting that the 'Rolling Stone' link was to the Mudcat Thread !

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 08:30 PM

Not on my computer, LF.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 09:10 PM

Let me start by saying I am very sorry for what the carrol family has had to go through,there is nothing i can say to lessen the pain. I have gone through death of family members and friends and it is not easy, only time can help heal the pain.

I also am a friend of William Zantzingers son and just went to Mr Zantzingers viewing. In know way am i defending his actions but i do believe his actions were exagerated for bob dylan to sell records. Hattie carroll died yes, but everything i read said from health issues, stress and I am sure as a church going woman, never being spoken to or treated like that before, but there were never any marks found on her from being struck. that is in my opinion the reason the charges were lessened to manslaughter.

Bob Dylan was on the way home from a political movement involving Mr Kings we have a dream speach when he heard the story, and how better to sell records than to write a song about what could be front page news. It is obvious he wrote it in minutes because half the song is proven to be false.

That being said does not mean Mr Z was a saint,but i do know even though he was called a slumlord in charles county, he provided housing for people that would have been living on the streets, granted conditions not much better than, but still better. I actually put carpet and cabinets in many of his rentals.

all i would ask is that you would research the whole story before jumping on the lynching bandwagon, I would guess most of the people on her have family members that have people in their familes that could be crusified if they believed everything the media said to sell papers, and im not on there blogs spitting on their grave sites.

rest in peace MR Z

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?
From: Matt_R
Date: 10 Jan 09 - 04:33 PM

I'll stand over your grave 'til I'm sure that you're dead.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?Obit1-09
From: GUEST,AAW
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 03:47 PM

Mr. Z and his family are old friends with my family. He graduated from Sidwell Friends H.S. with my mother. I went to Charlotte Hall Military Academy with his kids, and spent many weekends with them in the mid 70's. I have only the fondest thoughts & memories of him and his family, and for me, it's impossible to match the Mr. Z I knew with the skeletons that were in his closet.
Many who read this may be disappointed to learn that every time I saw him (a couple times per year,.. last time in June 2008) he always appeared to be the happiest man alive. He worked hard and played hard, and was the most down to earth, least pretentious person imaginable.
Everyone will believe what they want to belief....but all should always remember that we never know more than just a small fraction of any story.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?Obit1-09
From: open mike
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 07:08 PM

cross-link to other Zantzinger thread

curious how "Mr. Z" could mean Zantzinger or Zimmerman...

sometimes we all have as many similarities as differences....

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?Obit1-09
From: GUEST,random
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 05:29 PM

he died ten days before the 45th anniversairy of the day the album with "the Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll" was released

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?Obit1-
From: GUEST,Harvey
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 12:09 PM

Not to defend Zantzinger, who clearly had some problems, but the song isn't really about him. It's about injustice and corrupt government.

"The time for your tears" is not when you hear about the attack and arrest, and not when you hear background information on the attacker or the victim, but when you learn how the justice system handled a murder when the killer was white, wealthy, and well-connected and the victim was black.

The recent HBO TV series "The Wire" is about present-day corruption in Baltimore. Apparently it's racially integrated now, but at least as bad as it was when Hattie Carroll was killed.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?Obit1-09
From: Skivee
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 01:52 PM

Harvey, it would be a huge mistake to confuse The Wire with reality. The author has done two other shows about life on the streets
in Baltimore. Some of the show is based on his experiences as a crime reporter for the Baltimore Sunpapers. I enjoy his work a lot...as entertainment.
On the other hand, I have a political reporter friend who lives in Federal Hill. He is apoplectic over the portrayal of his much-improved and much-maligned hometown.
Baltimore has been very much improved over the last 40 years. I remeber when the most well known feature of the city was "the Block"; the seedy strip-club, dive bar, bordello section of town.
Now, most folks know it for The Inner Harbor and Fells Point. It's an upscale restaurant, business and residential area stretching over a couple of miles. The quay is completely packed with families and groups of every stripe on any summer day.
Baltimore has become a beautiful city through a lot of hard work by its citizens and public officials. Is there corruption in Charm City? Sure, but at a MUCH lower level than in the past.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?Obit1-
From: GUEST,Harvey
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 02:00 PM

Skivee, The Wire never denied that the rich in Baltimore are getting richer and that sections of the city have been gentrified as a backdrop for their lifestyle. There were many scenes in the series showing the redeveloped harbor area, and showing people involved in the ongoing development projects in that area and others. The gangsters in the series often laundered their drug profits through those projects.

I was happy to hear that corruption is on the decline. News stories posted on the internet appear to confirm that strong measures are being taken against corrupt officials, but unfortunately the picture they paint is that at the time the series started it was much closer to the reality of the city than I thought. One wonders whether the TV show may have been helpful in calling attention to a problem and helping to generate support for a solution.

A January 9, 2009 story reports that the current mayor of Baltimore, who bears some resemblance to Mayor Nerese Campbell in the series was indicted on 12 counts of theft, perjury, fraud and misconduct in office. Her statement in the video that she will be acquitted recalls what happened to state senator Clay in the last season of the series.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?Obit1-
From: GUEST,Harvey
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 02:01 PM

Another January 9, 2009 story reports that a Baltimore city councilwoman was indicted on bribery, perjury, malfeasance in office and nonfeasance in office.

And there was a very interesting June 22, 2004 report that the 2000-2002 Baltimore police commissioner who went on to head the state police (like acting commissioner Rawls in the series), was sentenced to six months in federal prison after pleading guilty to misuse of Baltimore police department funds. The fact that he played a police detective in the series, apparently both before and after his prison term, suggests that not everyone agrees with you that the show is a misrepresentation.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?Obit1-
From: GUEST,Harvey
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 02:33 PM

I just read the Wikipedia article on the 1999-2006 Irish-American mayor of Baltimore, who became governor in 2007 (as did Carcetti, the Italian-American mayor in the series, played by an Irish actor who couldn't completely conceal his accent). Like Carcetti, he was a young reformer who tried to improve the police department and reduce the crime rate. The article gives some crime statistics that appear to confirm the level of violence portrayed in The Wire. The city was fifth most dangerous in 2005 and twelfth most dangerous in 2006. The overall rate of violent crimes dropped by 14% from 2000 to 2003 (The Wire first aired in June of 2002), but the murder rate increased slightly, peaking at 276 in 2004, and still five times as high per capita as New York City in 2005.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?Obit1-09
From: PoppaGator
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 02:43 PM

This week's New Yorker features an interview with Zantzinger, conducted not long before his recent death. Amos provides a link in that "other" current Zantzinger Obit thread.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?Obit1-
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 05:21 PM

The New Yorker article says Dylan misrepresented Zantzinger, making him more of a villain and less of a wealthy and influential man than he was, to make the lightness of the sentence seem like something it wasn't. But no sources are cited, so we only have his word for it.

It was written by a David Simon, who says he was a newspaper reporter in 1988 when he tried to interview Zantzinger. The Wire's creator is also named David Simon, and he was a Baltimore Sun reporter from 1983 to 1995. The online version of the Zantzinger article says nothing about the author, but clicking on his name shows it's the only one he's written for the New Yorker.

I was mistaken earlier when I said that the murder rate peaked at 276 in 2004.
A January 4, 2009 article reported 282 murders in Baltimore in 2007, and a record 352 in 1993. It also suggested that nearly all the murders in Baltimore involve drug gangs, as in the TV series.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?Obit1-
From: GUEST,Harvey
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 10:09 AM

relevant excerpt from the New Yorker article:

A Lonesome Death
by David Simon January 26, 2009

In February of 1963, twenty-four-year-old William Zantzinger, armed with a toy carnival cane and wrecked on whiskey, made a spectacle of himself at the Spinsters' Ball at the Emerson Hotel in Baltimore. He was a drunken country mouse in the big city, at a time when the notion of racial equality had barely shown itself in the neighborhood of his father's tobacco farm. When the hotel's black waitstaff was slow to serve Zantzinger another drink, he yelled racial epithets at Hattie Carroll, a barmaid and a fifty-one-year-old mother of eleven, and he rapped her on the shoulder with his cane. She became upset, then collapsed and died of a stroke.

Bob Dylan read about the case in the newspaper. He wrote the magnificent "Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll" with the paper splayed on the table of a Seventh Avenue luncheonette. Zantzinger was then and forever after a master villain.

...... But even a dispassionate reading of the facts of the case leads one to conclude that Dylan took great liberties. Hattie Carroll was not "slain by a cane" that was "doomed and determined to destroy all the gentle," as Dylan wrote. No physical injury was done to her, nor was there any evidence to suggest lethal intent. The medical examiner's report—citing Carroll's enlarged heart and severe hypertension—attributed her death as much to Zantzinger's verbal abuse as to the tap of his cane. Nor did Zantzinger have "high office relations in the politics of Maryland" to influence the case, as Dylan implied.
.......

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?Obit1-09
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:22 PM

Here's the full article.

A LONESOME DEATH
by David Simon January 26, 2009
In February of 1963, twenty-four-year-old William Zantzinger, armed with a toy carnival cane and wrecked on whiskey, made a spectacle of himself at the Spinsters' Ball at the Emerson Hotel in Baltimore. He was a drunken country mouse in the big city, at a time when the notion of racial equality had barely shown itself in the neighborhood of his father's tobacco farm. When the hotel's black waitstaff was slow to serve Zantzinger another drink, he yelled racial epithets at Hattie Carroll, a barmaid and a fifty-one-year-old mother of eleven, and he rapped her on the shoulder with his cane. She became upset, then collapsed and died of a stroke.
Bob Dylan read about the case in the newspaper. He wrote the magnificent "Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll" with the paper splayed on the table of a Seventh Avenue luncheonette. Zantzinger was then and forever after a master villain.
Twenty-five years later, I tried to interview him for a newspaper story. He was working in a real-estate office (there was an equal-housing sticker on the door), and I found Zantzinger a disappointing lump of a man, with small dark eyes and black hair thinning from behind. The eyes followed me angrily as I offered up my two-sides-to-every-story patter, trying to get him to talk.
"There was a girl come down here from Baltimore five years ago," he said. "I didn't talk to her. And one before that. I got nothing to say."
I tried trashing Dylan: "That son of a bitch libelled you. You could've sued his ass for what he did." Zantzinger smiled. "We were gonna sue him big time. Scared that boy good!" he said. "The song was a lie. Just a damned lie."
He enjoyed talking about how his lawyer had fired shots across Dylan's bow. Columbia Records was on the receiving end as well, Zantzinger said, adding that he dropped the idea of a lawsuit because, after being convicted of manslaughter and assault, he'd seen enough of courtrooms and controversy.
By then, too, there was little left of Zantzinger's reputation. But even a dispassionate reading of the facts of the case leads one to conclude that Dylan took great liberties. Hattie Carroll was not "slain by a cane" that was "doomed and determined to destroy all the gentle," as Dylan wrote. No physical injury was done to her, nor was there any evidence to suggest lethal intent. The medical examiner's report—citing Carroll's enlarged heart and severe hypertension—attributed her death as much to Zantzinger's verbal abuse as to the tap of his cane. Nor did Zantzinger have "high office relations in the politics of Maryland" to influence the case, as Dylan implied.
Zantzinger ran through all of this. He knew the song and its equivocations. He knew precisely the historical role to which it had consigned him.
"He did some good stuff, I guess," he said of Dylan. "The blowing-with-the-wind song, that one? But I'm probably not gonna be the best judge. I mean, for me, he's not much of a singer."
I told Zantzinger about a note I had found in the old homicide file: "Attached is correspondence from . . . a folksinger in New York who seeks information about the aforementioned case, which was investigated by your agency." But Dylan's letter wasn't attached—snatched, perhaps, as a souvenir, from the police files. But the cover sheet, dated months after the release of "Hattie Carroll," was telling. Dylan was apparently writing too late to improve his song's accuracy; his letter was the reaction of a worried young man.
Zantzinger enjoyed that immensely. I told him that the Carroll children would not talk. He acknowledged that he had paid them money in an out-of-court settlement.
"I know that I caused that woman's death," he said. "I'm responsible. Me talking does nothing for that woman or her family. Just put this in your article: I admire and respect the Carroll family for their decision not to talk publicly. Like them, I think the best thing to do is let it rest." When I got up to go, he extended his hand, and I took it. He stayed in his chair, and I saw myself out.
Picasso said that art is the lie that shows us the truth, and that's how Dylan and his ballad should probably be judged. But to hold that standard to William Zantzinger, the man, who died earlier this month, at the age of sixty-nine, seems too crude a measure. In 1963, he was sentenced to six months in jail for Hattie Carroll's death, on the same day as the March on Washington.
Zantzinger lived long enough to see Martin Luther King, Jr., honored with a national holiday and to know that this week Barack Obama would be inaugurated as President. We can imagine him galled at this outcome, a small-minded racist rightly defined by his ugliest moment. Perhaps that's him, or perhaps he was more than that. At any rate, he knew his part and he played it to the end. ♦

The New Yorker – February 6, 2009

Roger in Baltimore

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?Obit1-09
From: Effsee
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 11:04 PM

..."Zantzinger lived long enough to see Martin Luther King, Jr., honored with a national holiday and to know that this week Barack Obama would be inaugurated as President"...

that's probably what killed him!

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?Obit1-09
From: GUEST,Student
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 01:09 AM

I notice these latest articles fail to mention the racial epiphets Zanzinger used and the force he maintained whilst 'rapping' as they lightly called it, an elderly black woman with a cane.
He assaulted another black maid at the same event calling her a 'ni**er' and striking her across the buttocks multiple times. It seems the most descriptive and non-PC articles, understandibly, are those written in 1963, on the day Hattie, the elderly black woman, was murdered.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?Obit1-09
From: GUEST,Jim P
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 04:00 AM

Any other people here with a little gray in their beards and/or hair that want to take issue with calling a 51 year old woman "elderly"? On the other hand, if I had 11 kids instead of the three I do have, I'd probably feel "elderly" too.

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?Obit1-09
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 08:05 PM

Was poking through a list of Notable deaths this year and Zantzinger is in it. Don't know how durable these links are.

SRS

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?Obit1-09
From: GUEST,TALYA CARROLL
Date: 21 May 09 - 12:21 PM

I READ YOUR COMMENTS AND WOULD LIKE FOR YOU ALL TO KNOW THAT THE CARROLL FAMILY DID NOT GET THE JUSTICE WE DESERVED IN THAT TRIAL. I AM THE GREAT GRANDDAUGHTER OF HATTIE CARROLL, AND I WITNESS FALL OUT BETWEEN MEMBERS OF OUR FAMILY AND ALSO HER CHILDREN ARE DYING BY THE YEARS.. DURING THAT TIME MANY OF HER 13 CHILDREN MOVED OUT OF THE BALTIMORE AREA AND HAVE NOT BEEN IN CONTACT WITH THE OTHERS LEAVING OUR FAMILY BROKEN. I WOULD HONESTLY LOVE TO MEET WILLIAM ZANZINGER GRANTED THAT HE'S STILL ALIVE IF NOT I WOULD LIKE TO SPIT ON HIS GRAVE AND HOPE HE DOESNT GET ETERNAL PEACE!!

Subject: RE: Whatever Happened to William Zantzinger?Obit1-09
From: PoppaGator
Date: 21 May 09 - 02:34 PM

Talya ~ read just above and you'll see that WZ has been dead since January. I'm sorry to hear that your family is still suffering from his depraved indifference.