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'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3

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The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga (161) (closed)


Noreen 05 Aug 02 - 08:00 AM
GUEST 05 Aug 02 - 08:57 AM
Noreen 05 Aug 02 - 10:35 AM
Harry Basnett 05 Aug 02 - 04:15 PM
RolyH 05 Aug 02 - 04:48 PM
Noreen 06 Aug 02 - 10:01 AM
GUEST 06 Aug 02 - 10:28 AM
Noreen 06 Aug 02 - 10:51 AM
GUEST 06 Aug 02 - 11:04 AM
IanC 06 Aug 02 - 11:21 AM
GUEST,Andy, Port Erin 06 Aug 02 - 11:22 AM
Derby Ram 06 Aug 02 - 11:41 AM
GUEST 06 Aug 02 - 11:58 AM
Derby Ram 06 Aug 02 - 12:21 PM
Noreen 06 Aug 02 - 12:30 PM
Derby Ram 06 Aug 02 - 12:36 PM
GUEST 06 Aug 02 - 12:45 PM
Derby Ram 06 Aug 02 - 12:54 PM
GUEST 06 Aug 02 - 01:09 PM
Derby Ram 06 Aug 02 - 01:36 PM
Derby Ram 06 Aug 02 - 01:44 PM
GUEST 06 Aug 02 - 02:08 PM
Harry Basnett 06 Aug 02 - 03:47 PM
Noreen 06 Aug 02 - 04:25 PM
GUEST 06 Aug 02 - 04:45 PM
Derby Ram 06 Aug 02 - 06:21 PM
GUEST 06 Aug 02 - 06:44 PM
Derby Ram 06 Aug 02 - 07:24 PM
GUEST,Ivan (ivan@kissmurphy.com.au) 06 Aug 02 - 09:13 PM
GUEST 06 Aug 02 - 11:48 PM
GUEST 06 Aug 02 - 11:57 PM
GUEST,Ivan 07 Aug 02 - 01:02 AM
GUEST 07 Aug 02 - 01:24 AM
Derby Ram 07 Aug 02 - 04:56 AM
Derby Ram 07 Aug 02 - 05:06 AM
GUEST,Andy, Port Erin 07 Aug 02 - 05:15 AM
GUEST 07 Aug 02 - 08:46 AM
GUEST,Ivan 07 Aug 02 - 11:22 AM
GUEST 07 Aug 02 - 11:38 AM
graham_t 07 Aug 02 - 11:57 AM
GUEST,Andy, Port Erin, I-O-M 07 Aug 02 - 12:52 PM
GUEST 07 Aug 02 - 01:11 PM
GUEST 07 Aug 02 - 01:22 PM
GUEST 07 Aug 02 - 01:38 PM
Derby Ram 07 Aug 02 - 05:15 PM
GUEST 07 Aug 02 - 07:13 PM
Derby Ram 08 Aug 02 - 03:17 AM
GUEST,Andy, Port Erin 08 Aug 02 - 03:50 AM
GUEST,Andy, Port Erin 08 Aug 02 - 05:22 AM
GUEST,Pat Cooksey. Germany. 08 Aug 02 - 05:48 AM
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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Noreen
Date: 05 Aug 02 - 08:00 AM

I noticed that the CD stall at Warwick Festival had several 'CM' re-releases on sale, including Bright Phoebus and a Mulligan one- sorry, can't find the details I wrote down, just now.

I had a word with the stall holders about the situation, which was all news to them, and I intend to contact the owner who wasn't available at the time.

Noreen


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Aug 02 - 08:57 AM

Ah, so now the Jones camp is going to intimidate vendors who sell Celtic Music product?

Good God, you people are out of control.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Noreen
Date: 05 Aug 02 - 10:35 AM

Hello, Guest, sorry to see you're feeling touchy today. If you're referring to my message, I am not a member of the "Jones camp" if such a thing exists, but take an interest in furthering knowledge. The vendors were very interested to learn that they were selling CDRs as full-priced CDs, without knowing it- this could obviously reflect on them. Perhaps you would like to contact the said vendors and ask whether they would rather be made aware of this or not? I'll let you have the details if so.

The thought of me intimidating the two large lads in charge of the stall strikes me as rather amusing... in fact they were very interested in the situation and questioned me at length on the old record labels and so on.

Good God, you people are out of control. err- who are you suggesting should be in control of 'us people'? You?

Noreen the Intimidator


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Harry Basnett
Date: 05 Aug 02 - 04:15 PM

I think Dave Burland's 'Dalesmans Litany' was re=issued by Celtic Music a couple of years ago - was this on CDR too?

Just been listening to some of my Trailer/Leader stuf on vinyl...Muckram Wakes, Pete and Chris Coe, Tony Rose...it's not just the 'Jones Camp', dear Guest - (whatever the 'Jones Camp' might be..) as I've said before there's a lot of good music and a lot of excellent artists involved!

All the best........Harry Basnett.

P.S. Well done O, Intimidating One!!


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: RolyH
Date: 05 Aug 02 - 04:48 PM

It seems that all the CDs put out by CM are CDRs
I got caught when I bought The Dransfields 'Rout of the Blues'thinking it was the geniune article only to discover it was a CDR.
Spend time now looking for the original stuff on vinyl.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Noreen
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 10:01 AM

Roots Records at Warwick Festival were selling the following CDs, labelled as if still being produced by the original company (Mulligan, Leader etc) with only the smallest of lettering on the back saying:
Distributed by C.M.Distribution, Hookstone Park, Harrogate, North Yorkshire.

Paul Brady - Welcome Here Kind Stranger (Mulligan)
The Kipper Family Album - Since Time Immemorial (Dambuster)
Lal and Mike Waterson - Bright Phoebus (Leader)


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 10:28 AM

uk.music.folk


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Noreen
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 10:51 AM

Thanks, Guest.

(It's a post from Pete Coe about Celtic Music's CDRs being sold as CDs by unwitting retailers.)


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 11:04 AM

Pete Coe being one of the central figures in the Jones Jihad Camp (tm).


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: IanC
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 11:21 AM

Guest (nobody)

I think your sarcasm (?) is falling on deaf ears. Perhaps because Pete Coe's posts are perfectly reasonable ... I followed your links.

Possibly Pete Coe's got some reson to complain about Celtic Music?

:-)
Ian


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 11:22 AM

Noreen if these CDR's are as you describe, surely they are not just bootlegs but counterfeit? Trading Standards and the Police are obliged to investigate if this is the case. Not that Bulmer will care a jot about such trivia!


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Derby Ram
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 11:41 AM

IanC...Guest (Jihad)'s sarcasm has been ignored by most for many months.
Don't worry about it..!
Does Mr B seriously think that people won't notice his dealings?
Ah Well, maybe this is one CDR sale too many and may bring about a visit from the boys in Blue...Fat chance!
Regards Ralphie
Using a mates cookie whilst on his Hols.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 11:58 AM

Well, if Dave Bulmer is such a crook, and the Jones Jihad'ers feel they can "prove" his guilt in public opinion forums such as this, why is it that the man isn't either rotting in the clink, or has been driven out of business by court judgments against him?

At the end of the day, no one has brought a successful case against the man, have they? Please do correct me if I'm wrong. Considering the amount of heat his name generates in English folk circles, isn't it a bit odd that he has not once had a successful court case brought against him? After all, Martin Carthy won his against Paul Simon, so it isn't as if there isn't some legal precedence.

The reason I've been so cantakerous is because the Jones Jihad'ers are such masters of misinformations, and so very good at whipping up this (as far as I can tell) unprecedented level of mass English folk hysteria about this one case. Which is not anything more than a morality tale for musicians--hire a good entertainment solicitor before you sign away the rights to your work.

Hey--it ain't just Nic Jones who has fallen victim to the vagaries of the music business types. Paul McCartney doesn't own the rights to his Beatles' songs either.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Derby Ram
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 12:21 PM

One small correction...As far as I know, there never was a Martin Carthy / Paul Simon court case. I don't think MC ever made a complaint. and the whole thing was settled by "Gentlemans agreement"...A much nicer way to proceed IMHO.
Oh that this could be resolved in a similar fashion...Not much chance of that I suppose.
I fail to see by the way, how the selling of substandard CD-Rs as pukka CDs can be construed as "Misinformation"...I've seen them, and it's a FACT !!!
Yours
Ayatollah Ralphie


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Noreen
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 12:30 PM

Hey, we should get together... Ayatollah Ralphie and the Intimidator :0)

I suppose the "unprecedented level of mass English folk hysteria " is improved by calling this a Jihad, Guest?


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Derby Ram
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 12:36 PM

Noreen...Hi...
"....and the Intimidators" Shurely!
Off subject for a mo....PJD "Flat Earth" is out now...
Definitely a Silver Disc....not Green or Blue!!
Love R xxx


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 12:45 PM

I don't care if it is improved, anymore than you care if you are engaging in a campaign of censorship against a record company and the vendors who sell their products, Noreen. Jones Jihad (tm) is a mellifluous catch phrase, and that is why I use it. It'll catch on, you wait and see.

Ralphie--this week your tactic is the CDR. Last week, it was don't but the Celtic Music reissues, because CM is evil and Nic Jones won't get royalties, which apparently aren't due him because he sold the rights to his music. Before that, it was CM is evil because they won't release the music that we all deserve to hear.

Tactic after tactic of yours to try and get the court of public opinion to do what you can't get a court of law to do, which is shut the CM man down. But Ralphie, even if CM went out of business tomorrow, and Dave Bulmer were thrown in jail for the rest of his days (probably a light sentence in your twisted way of thinking), it wouldn't get the rights back for Nic Jones. It wouldn't get the masters back to Nic Jones.

So really, what is the point beyond your bitterness and begrudgery (not to mention the Jones Jihad'ers nauseating self-righteous indignation)? Answer: there is none.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Derby Ram
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 12:54 PM

GUEST
Tell me who you are and I'll talk sensibly to you...Until you do, I'll try and keep my promise to myself, by not responding to Flamers.
I've offered my address to you many a time....No response.!!
Your Call
Ralphie
As I said before, I'm only temporarily on this name, as I'm away from my normal Machine at the mo....So, don't hold Derby Ram responsible for my postings...Ta


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 01:09 PM

I have not one iota of interest in talking to you personally Ralphie. You have waged a very PUBLIC campaign, and I keep harping at you (not flaming, but criticizing--engaging in perfectly LEGITIMATE criticism of you) because you refuse to answer PUBLICLY what your purpose is for engaging in such a highly visible public smear campaign. Because that is what you and Pete Coe and a number of others are doing.

Answer the charges publicly Ralphie. Come clean. Prove me wrong in the same public forum you are engaging in this smear campaign, and then maybe I'll sit down and have a drink with you.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Derby Ram
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 01:36 PM

Smear campaign..? Interesting concept.
Just stating the facts as I see them...CM own the rights to many many artists work. No Problem.They were brought, as I understand it, fairly and squarely from among others John Zollman of Highway Records along with other companies...see threads passim..No Problem..Releasing said CD's....No problem....Purporting them to be commercial CDs, when they are CD-Rs.(with a possibly short term shelf life)....Problem.
Not Being allied to MCPS, and therefore not fulfilling his requirement to recompense the artists concerned of their cut of the money....although not legally wrong, is IMO morally reprehensible...and is therefore a PROBLEM.!
Public enough for you ???
As for going public, my name is Ralph Jordan, producer of "Unearthed" by Nic Jones.
What's yours ?
Regards Ralphie


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Derby Ram
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 01:44 PM

Bugger...
I let my anger get the better of me....and responded to a troll...Sorry Chaps, Will try not to do it again.
Regards Ralphie


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 02:08 PM

Well Ralphie, I don't rush to judgment quite as quickly as those of you with economic interests tied up with CM. And I guess therein lies the difference.

Producer of Nic Jones CD has an economic interest in squashing the CM releases. Now, I agree that putting out a CDR and claiming it is a CD is wrong. And I'm as much on the artists' side as the next guy when it comes to them being paid fairly for their creative output, as well as being in control of how it gets used, when and by whom. But I don't have as much sympathy for professional musicians in the latter case as I used to. There really is no reason NOT to have legal representation now, or even 30 years ago in the folk music business.

Finally, I do draw the line when it comes to undertaking a public spear campaign to discredit people and drive them out of business when there is no proof of legal wrongdoing, which is what I think the Jones Jihad campaign is trying to do to Celtic Music and Bulmer.

As I said, you and Nic Jones have a financial stake in this discussion. You have a financial incentive, and I think money has been at the top of the agenda for the two of you all along, not morality.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Harry Basnett
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 03:47 PM

Once again...and I feel a strong sense of deja-vu...we are not just talking about Nic Jones regardless of how many times "Guest" wishes to use the phrase 'Jones Jihad'!!

Colin Irwin, in the April 2000 edition of Froots, when reviewing the unexpected re-release of 'Dalesmans Litany' referred tothe "infamous lost generation of folk records gathering dust by a company seemingly for the sole purpose of gazing at their rather primitive sleeves" ( I rather like some of those sleeves but that's by the by ).

"Guest" made the point earlier that we've all been clamouring to get this material re-released and now it is we still aren't happy. We might be if, for once, things seemed to be done properly...not CD-R's slipping surreptitiously onto the market-place but the quality recording and markettong the "lost generation" deserve.

All the best.........Harry Basnett.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Noreen
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 04:25 PM

Hi Ralphie, look forward to hearing "Flat Earth" - you whetted my appetite...!

BTW you can log out and log back in again as you, on someone else's computer- though that may be a little late now... :0)

N
xx
(one each!)


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 04:45 PM

I don't believe for an instant that if Bulmer re-released everything he's got to the prevailing standard, that people would simply let this matter drop. Because that isn't what this is about. It is about money for the people who stand to gain some, and about begrudgery among those who don't.

I'm just fed up with the sickening double standard from the lot of you. Fed up with the self-righteous moralizing. Maybe if the amount of energy poured into the villification campaign had been positive rather than negative, we'd see a high quality series of reissues by now.

As it is, I don't blame Bulmer for holding back at this point, considering the level of vehemence this well orchestrated anti-Celtic Music campaign has engaged in.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Derby Ram
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 06:21 PM

GUEST
Mmmmmm....Stand to gain a lot of money do I??
As Producer of "Unearthed"....I received the princely sum of ten bars of "Kit-Kat" (A UK confectionary) from Julia J.
All the work I undertook for the "Jones Jihad Clan Sect"...Oh Fuck, Whatever you call it, was done out of love for the family.....and my commitment to an old friend who'd fallen on hard times....What have you done?
Regards Ralphie xxxxxx


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 06:44 PM

I've done a lot of things in my life Ralphie, who wants to know?


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Derby Ram
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 07:24 PM

GUEST...
Please tell, I'd love to know.
Regards Ralphie xx


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Ivan (ivan@kissmurphy.com.au)
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 09:13 PM

Hang about! There's some oversight in the arguments you are putting forward, fellow 'Guest'. You keep reiterating that there is 'no proof of legal wrongdoing' by CM/Bulmer, yet you yourself concede, at the least, that it is wrong to market CDRs at full price, as though they were legitimately manufactured (instead of bearing a bright red sticker stating 'WARNING: THESE ARE LOW-COST, LOW-QUALITY CDRs WHICH CUT EXPENSES BY AVOIDING ROYALTY PAYMENTS'). This is surely some sort of fraud, in terms of the Trade Practices Act (or whatever the equivalent is in the UK - I am writing from Australia). Having conceded that this is, in your own words, 'wrong', how do you maintain there is no proof of legal wrongdoing. Even if, in the tortuous terms of the law (which have little to do with ethics), this cannot definitively be proved to be LEGALLY malfeasant, then it is surely a sign of devious and unethical business practice. You also state that you are as much "on the artists' side as the next guy when it comes to them being paid fairly for their creative output, as well as being in control of how it gets used, when and by whom", yet you ultimately dismiss these claims/rights(?) because you say (and I personally don't know any details of the actual contractual/legal history here and so don't know if what you say is correct) that they signed those rights away out of, what is, at worst, a youthful naivety/ignorance. Should they really have to pay all their lives for such a thing? Regardless of the exactitudes of legal arguments, what about the ethics of it? Why is it really that you take the stance you do? Surely it is clear that Bulmer has not acted ethically, either with regard to his customers or the artists whose material he now "owns" (surely, in the larger framework, there is something wrong with a legal system that allows one person to utterly reap the benefits of others' creative labour with no real effort or input from him). He is also showing no regard for the public interest, in that he is utterly placing his self-interest against the larger interests of the public culture, in that he is withholding a very substantial contribution to UK culture from that public, for reasons that are not clear. Hypothetically, how would everyone feel if it were conceivable for a book publising company to buy up the rights to the works of, say, a large portion of the quality literature written in the UK between, say, 1970 and 1990, and then almost entirely withholding it from print. There would be an outcry and such a publisher would be howled down on the grounds of denying the public access to a vital part of its self-defining heritage. Why do you, by implication, side with Bulmer in this argument? Why do you not recognise the basic injustice here, for it is this that upsets people? It is clearly unjust, whatever the legalities? It is hard not to imagine you have some personal axe to grind here. Why do you not declare your identity. You pounced, with alacrity and delight, when you thought (mistakenly) that you had perceived some self-interest on Ralph Jordan's part. Could it be that you have some sort of interest in the Bulmer position and were delighted to think you had found self-interest in others because you perceive it in your own position and are stung by the thought that the vitriol could be turned on you if your interests were declared? Besides, what of the fact that Nic Jones stands to gain here? So he should. HE sat down and taught himself the guitar and attained a state of high accomplishment. HE went through the archives and chose the material. He pondered it long and hard, invented tunes, spent hours exploring the possibilities of melody, rhythm and tuning on his guitar and in his mind. He toured up and down the country to earn a living. HE played the material in the studio. HE sang it. HE created it. He gave a lifetime of hard-won expertise to it. What did Bulmer do? Paid a pittance for a bankrupt company then sells the music on poorly pressed material while so arranging his affairs to dodge his debt to the artists he makes money from, a debt both MORAL and ETHICAL if not legal, and it should be legal, as even under a fully legal regimen most of the profits would be (unjustly) his anyway. How can you defend this?

I would like to know what, if any, legal action HAS been taken against Mr Bulmer, by whom, and how the action fared. Have people made the effort of contacting the police, or a Consumer Complaints body, about the CDRs? Has anyone challenged his refusal to pay royalties?

Ivan


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 11:48 PM

There was one case that I am aware of which supposedly was settled out of court against Bulmer. That case was detailed in article in the Guardian in 1997, which stated:

"...two alleged victims...Gary and Glen Millar of the Durham-based Whiskey Priests, who received no royalties for their albums "Nee Gud-Luck", and "The First Few Drops", after signing up with Celtic Music in the Eighties. In 1993 they took their case to the HIgh Court and, in an out-of-court settlement, obtained costs and the recording and publishing rights to everything they had done."

Whether the awards actually were as stated above or not, I have no idea. Such settlements usually require neither party disclose the terms of the settlement. The same article also claimed:

"At least five cases have been brought against Mr Bulmer's music firms. Some have been defended by Neil Sharpley, his partner and lawyer."

I've never heard about any of these, other than in this article. I can't vouch for the veracity of the claims made therein either. But before people get all up in arms about the awful partners of Mr. Bulmer, they would do well to remember that another of Mr. Bulmer's parters, for 15 years, was Dick Gaughan. Dick Gaughan himself has since admitted that he gave Bulmer advice to buy up the catalogs so either an academic institution wouldn't get them, or an American interest like the Library of Congress plunder the "national treasure" (sic) of the nation's folk traditions. Apparently, what is good for the goose is not good for gander when it comes to plundering other nation's cultural treasures.

Of course, Gaughan himself since claims to have been hung out to dry in the partnership too.

Notice how I'm not defending anyone here. Just pointing out what a convoluted mess this is. Gaughan himself said he doubted that any artist could get a court to overturn the issue of the rights to the music and the masters. And he said that in the very same thread that the Guardian article was posted to, so it isn't as if he wasn't aware of the settlement for the Millars. Yet he, like everyone else, has remained silent on the issue of the other court cases alluded to in Guardian article. I have no reason why.

There is no condoning what Bulmer is doing. But there is also no condoning the ways that the Jones Jihad'ers have reacted to this situation either. An eye for eye leaves two men blind, after all.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 11:57 PM

Oh, and I meant to quote from a post over in uk.music.folk not too long ago, by Michael Ollier. He summed this whole thing up quite brilliantly I thought. Here is just an excerpt of this post:

I...had dealings with many musicians. The name of DB comes up quite often. I will not say who they are, that's for them to discuss (but there are a lot of big names) but they all snarl at the mere mention of the name. One female performer went apoplectic. One guy turned to me and said "Don't mention that fuckers name to me again" and stormed off. He didn't speak to me the rest of the weekend. One of the best was one of DGs fellow members in Clan Alba, who kept me regalled with a tirade for a couple of hours in a Glasgow hotel, nest to the railway station which I'm sure Dick knows very well. He didn't like my bodhran jokes however, may he RIP...I have heard of a couple of people 'sticking up' for him (one prominent folkie magazine in particular and, sad to say, one very funny musician who I rather like... can't get his records though!!))... but after all the stories you've heard you should think of others part in this...We also advised some people not to sign with him, then watched as their music was suppressed. People (especially musicians) never learn: especially Northumbrian Pipers!!

End quote


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Ivan
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 01:02 AM

Thanks to the last contributor for the information. Very interesting and impartial account. Do you know in what way the musicians are said to have 'signed their rights away'. Did their contracts stipulate that they would be paid a one-off sum for the recording with no royalties due or some such thing (once de rigeur in the Jamaican music industry)?

Cheers

Ivan


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 01:24 AM

Ivan, I have no idea what the Celtic Music contracts say, as I've never seen one. However, there are laws which regulate the payment of royalties after the rights have been sold. In other words, once the Leader/Trailer catalogs were sold, the artists' rights went to the new owner, and didn't revert to the artists, as they would in a more perfect music business world in capitalist societies.

I'm also willing to stick my neck out and make a WAG that most of the people shooting off their mouths about this subject have never seen a Celtic Music contract, or have any idea how business law works in this area either. Of course, that hasn't stopped them from spreading lots of moralistic opinions and misinformation as facts.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Derby Ram
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 04:56 AM

Just a little thought...
I wonder what would happen if we all bought a copy of a Celtic Music CDR, copied it for our friends for Christmas, enclosing a note inviting the recipient to make a donation directly to the artist/artists involved in the original recording.
Hopefully the results of this action would be twofold.
Firstly, The music would be back in the public domain, and secondly the artists would recieve some recompense for their work, which they would not otherwise get.
Any comments?
Cheers
Ralphie


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Derby Ram
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 05:06 AM

Definition of "JIHAD" according to Chambers dictionary:
2.A Fervent Crusade.

Not being a Muslim myself, the first does not really apply, and as for the 2nd definition...Guilty as charged!
Regards Ralphie


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 05:15 AM

Could be a great idea Ralphie, but why put ANY money into CM Records coffers? As these titles appear "iff -y", why not simply organise things so just ONE person buys a copy and then copies that bigtime? Leave CM racks full of unsaleable merchandise. As CM appears to be booting/counterfeiting the things anyway,it's a bit difficult to imagine why they could do without blowing the lid on their own practices.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 08:46 AM

Good idea--bootleg the Celtic Music CDRs, advertise it on the internet (making it explicit and clear that you are bootlegging on behalf of Nic Jones, of course) and then see what the MU does to defend Nic. I'm sure they'll agree that since you have the moral high ground, that bootlegging is JUST FINE!


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Ivan
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 11:22 AM

Thanks again Guest for your observations. One question though: when you say that the artists' rights go to the new owner and not the artist, does that mean that all royalties fall to the new owner and that Bulmer is thus under no legal obligation to pay royalties (or any other payment)? If that is the case then it would indeed seem difficult to get anywhere on this front, although surely there is some recourse over the issue of CDRs, or could this also be interpreted as falling within the law? Is the answer (for new artists) to ensure that any contract stipulates that all rights return to them if the catalogue is sold on? Is it possible to exert sufficient sway with a record company to get such a contract drawn up?

Cheers


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 11:38 AM

Ivan, I'm no legal expert, and you should never get legal advice/opinions from lay people in internet chat forums--especially folk music chat forums engaged in the kind of misinformation this issue has generated!

OK, having qualified my statement first, I will simply say it is my understanding that the reason why the alleged aggrieved musicians have not pursued court cases against Bulmer is because the courts are highly unlikely to overturn Bulmer's rights of ownership to both the masters and the rights, which he gained fair and square when he bought the Leader/Trailer catalogs. It is also my understanding of UK law that the masters and the rights go to the new owner of the catalog upon their sale to a third party, unless otherwise stipulated in the original contract. So as I understand it, the musicians who originally signed contracts with Leader/Trailer didn't have stipulations in their contracts for the masters and rights to revert to them, rather than a third party, upon sale of the Leader/Trailer companies.

As I've said repeatedly, it isn't Dave Bulmer's fault that so many folk musicians fail to exercise their legal rights by refusing to consult qualified solicitors to review their contracts and advise them on how to proceed.

Especially, as Michael Ollier pointed out, Northumbrian pipers who WERE forewarned, forearmed, advised by many seasoned professionals, etc etc!


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: graham_t
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 11:57 AM

I wonder if retailers such as HMV, Borders etc (where I have occasionally seen CM CDRs for sale) would sell them if they knew they were CDRs. I've never purchased anything, even on the smallest of labels from any reputable retailer that has turned out to be CDR though there could be other examples I don't know of.

What happens in the case of tracks licensed from CM to other labels as has happened recently. Do the royalties go straight to the artists or back to CM and hence ??


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin, I-O-M
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 12:52 PM

As I understand there now exists the notion/case law of "moral rights". Not being a lawyer I am unsure just what this means, but it sounds as if it leaves a loophole to be tested in law when a record company apparently fails to honour its obligations to artistes. I am also told by a friend who has dealt with Bulmer that now Sharpley has been "defrocked" by his Professional body, Bulmer is using a London solicitor called Nick Kanaar who, strangely in view of the circumstances, claims to work for "oppressed" artistes. I wonder what he would make of all the hostility and (alleged) impropriety of his client? Funny old World.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 01:11 PM

Andy, could you give us some solid information on these legal "moral rights" loopholes of which you speak? I'm damn suspicious about that one. Like citing some case law (you claim there is some) that would be relevant?


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 01:22 PM

Grahamt--royalties always go to the owner of the rights, and often that is not the same person as the composer of the song. That is what I was alluding to when I mentioned Paul McCartney.

The Urban Legends website has an excellent little synopsis of the issues involved in these sorts of circumstances:

http://198.64.129.160/music/artists/jackson.htm


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 01:38 PM

Here are some "straight from the horse's mouth" websites with more information. Musicians: EDUCATE YOURSELVES!

BMI's FAQ:

http://www.bmi.com/licensing/business/generalfaq.asp

UK specific websites:

The Performing Rights Society:

http://www.prs.co.uk/

Mechanical-Copyright Protection Society:

http://www.mcps.co.uk/

British Academy of Composers and Songwriters:

http://www.britishacademy.com/

British Music Rights:

http://www.bmr.org/html/guide2.html

The Guild of International Songwriters and Composers UK:

http://www.songwriters-guild.co.uk/


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Derby Ram
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 05:15 PM

Dear GUEST (0846)
Please read what is written. Far from selling copies, I propose to give them away to anyone who wants one. It would cost me money to produce them admittedly, but at least it would deny income to CM. And, as the artists concerned wouldn't get a penny either way. I don't see that there is a problem. Do you?
Of course, if any artist wished to proceed with another course of action...fine.
Graham T. Are you referring to the various anthologies of revered artists released, recently by another well known UK company perchance?
Andy I.O.M. Funny Old World indeed !
Regards all...Ralphie


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 07:13 PM

Well Ralphie, I think you are asking the wrong person for approval of your scheme to defraud. You do know that they all can be contacted online, and all your fraud schemes you are going on about reported? And that of course would mean an investigation, and all sorts of inconvenient things like that.

Come to think of it, why hasn't Nic Jones availed himself of these services?

How about you ask the question of the MU? Or the Mechanical-Copyright Society? Ring up the UK office of the Guild of International Songwriters, and see what they have to say about your scheme for defrauding a busines person who's practices you don't like?


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Derby Ram
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 03:17 AM

Ah! fine GUEST.
I don't think that floating an idea in an open Web forum for general discussion is a hanging offence just yet!!

BTW, As you are so obviously associated with Celtic Music in some way. I find it surprising that you keep replying to all this, thus keeping the subject alive. I would have thought that the last thing that Mr B would want is for people to be discussing his activities world wide. Looking back through this whole sorry tale, we've contributions from Europe, the US, Australia, NZ. And there are now a lot more people interested.

Pat Cooksey....Any updates to your situation?


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 03:50 AM

Sorry but as I said, I only wrote what I understood. Moral rights do exist. Perhaps the best person to contact about such matters might be Mr Kanaar.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 05:22 AM

Anyone interested might like to check this web page:

www.intellectual-property.gov.uk/std/ faq/copyright/moral_rights.htm


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Pat Cooksey. Germany.
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 05:48 AM

Details of my case are in the hands of a lawyer in London and I intend to proceed.


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