BS: countries that named themselves

Subject: RE: BS: countries that named themselves
From: gnu
Date: 07 May 02 - 06:32 AM

I am informed that the NF tri-colour is indeed preferred over the new flag by most Newfoundlanders, while I thought the opposite was true. I stand corrected by a actual NF'er. Us fellahs from New Brunswick think we know it all whereas the opposite is true.

Subject: RE: BS: countries that named themselves
From: AKS
Date: 07 May 02 - 09:23 AM

Sorry to be slow, was interrupted more than once ...

To MudGuard: nemec < nemoj, dumb, mute, ie one who can not speak 'our' language.

Finland certainly is a name given by foreigners; the Roman historian Tacitus (1st century) was the first to write on Fenniae (unless he confuses the Fenians here;-) and their strange habits. We ourselves (and the Estonians) call our country Suomi (s-oo-oh-m-ee). It originally has denoted the province around Turku in South West of F. only, but nobody knows for certain whether the name really means (or has meant) anything at all. Etymologically it is often connected to saami 'Lapp', some say it must mean 'land of swamp/bog' (suo = bog, marsh, swamp), but that's not probable. Although it sounds great, Misophist, there's no 'free people' connotation in 'suomi'. In fact it would suit fine, mind you, there's never been feudalism here!

I am quite convinced that if you ask any Russian person about their country's (Rus' / Rossija) or nation's (russkije) name, they'd claim them to be of old Russian origin. But the source lies in Sweden (Svearike); the vikings (varyags) who founded Kievskaja Rus along the Dnepr river (the first Russian state) came mainly from Roslagen, the coastal area north of Stockholm, that in turn had got its name from rodslag, 'a crew of oarsmen'. Funny thing is that the original home of these ancient rowers is remembered only by Finns and Estonians; we call Sverige 'Ruotsi / Rootsi'. The rest of the world seems to know their creation only :-).

A minor correction, guest mr happy: a Hungarian (magyar) who speaks in Hungarian (magyarul) calls his/her country Magyarország ('magyar land', /gy/ is one letter, pronounced soft (palatalized) d, /sz/ stands for s).

Have to run now, got an apple tree to plant (or would 'set' be the correct verb?)!

AKS

Subject: RE: BS: countries that named themselves
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 May 02 - 09:52 AM

For those of you wishing an origin of state names within the the U.S., there is this:


Alabama May come from Choctaw meaning "thicket-clearers" or "vegetation-gatherers"
Alaska Corruption of Aleut word meaning "great land" or "that which the sea breaks against"
Arizona From the Indian "Arizonac," meaning "little spring" or "young spring"
Arkansas From the Quapaw Indians
California From a book, Las Sergas de Esplandián, by Garcia Ordóñez de Montalvo, c. 1500
Colorado From the Spanish, "ruddy" or "red"
Connecticut From an Indian word (Quinnehtukqut) meaning "beside the long tidal river"
Delaware From Delaware River and Bay; named in turn for Sir Thomas West, Baron De La Warr
Florida From the Spanish, meaning "feast of flowers" (Easter)
Georgia In honor of George II of England
Hawaii Uncertain. The islands may have been named by Hawaii Loa, their traditional discoverer. Or they may have been named after Hawaii or Hawaiki, the traditional home of the Polynesians.
Idaho Though popularly believed to be an Indian word, it is an invented name whose meaning is unknown.
Illinois Algonquin for "tribe of superior men"
Indiana Meaning "land of Indians"
Iowa Probably from an Indian word meaning "this is the place" or "the Beautiful Land"
Kansas From a Sioux word meaning "people of the south wind"
Kentucky From an Iroquoian word "Ken-tah-ten" meaning "land of tomorrow"
Louisiana In honor of Louis XIV of France
Maine First used to distinguish the mainland from the offshore islands. It has been considered a compliment to Henrietta Maria, queen of Charles I of England. She was said to have owned the province of Mayne in France.
Maryland In honor of Henrietta Maria (queen of Charles I of England)
Massachusetts From Massachusett tribe of Native Americans, meaning "at or about the great hill"
Michigan From Indian word "Michigana" meaning "great or large lake"
Minnesota From a Dakota Indian word meaning "sky-tinted water"
Mississippi From an Indian word meaning "Father of Waters"
Missouri Named after the Missouri Indian tribe. "Missouri" means "town of the large canoes."
Montana Chosen from Latin dictionary by J. M. Ashley. It is a Latinized Spanish word meaning "mountainous."
Nebraska From an Oto Indian word meaning "flat water"
Nevada Spanish: "snowcapped"
New Hampshire From the English county of Hampshire
New Jersey From the Channel Isle of Jersey
New Mexico From the country of Mexico
New York In honor of the Duke of York
North Carolina In honor of Charles I of England
North Dakota From the Sioux tribe, meaning "allies"
Ohio From an Iroquoian word meaning "great river"
Oklahoma From two Choctaw Indian words meaning "red people"
Oregon Unknown. However, it is generally accepted that the name, first used by Jonathan Carver in 1778, was taken from the writings of Maj. Robert Rogers, an English army officer.
Pennsylvania In honor of Adm. Sir William Penn, father of William Penn. It means "Penn's Woodland."
Rhode Island From the Greek Island of Rhodes
South Carolina In honor of Charles I of England
South Dakota From the Sioux tribe, meaning "allies"
Tennessee Of Cherokee origin; the exact meaning is unknown
Texas From an Indian word meaning "friends"
Utah From the Ute tribe, meaning "people of the mountains"
Vermont From the French "vert mont," meaning "green mountain"
Virginia In honor of Elizabeth "Virgin Queen" of England
Washington In honor of George Washington
West Virginia In honor of Elizabeth, "Virgin Queen" of England
Wisconsin French corruption of an Indian word whose meaning is disputed
Wyoming From the Delaware Indian word, meaning "mountains and valleys alternating"; the same as the Wyoming Valley in Pennsylvania


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: countries that named themselves
From: SharonA
Date: 07 May 02 - 09:58 AM

To our guest Adolfo: Thanks for posting the origin of "Spain"! To correct someone's (?) earlier posting, the Spanish call it España ("ace-SPAHN-nya"). Also, the Spanish word "hermano" meaning brother is pronounced "air-MAH-no" (the "h" is not pronounced, or if so almost imperceptibly).

Subject: RE: BS: countries that named themselves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 May 02 - 01:05 PM

And yes, I read that the name of the Basque countries in Basque means Land of the Speakers of the Basque Language - they are linguistically, rather than politically or geographically defined. Neat.

I also read somewhere that Abidjan, the capital of Côte d'Ivoire, means "what does it look like I'm doing? I'm fishing, you idiot!" or something like that in a now-extinct African language - guess the white man asked What is this place in some European language!

Subject: RE: BS: countries that named themselves
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 07 May 02 - 11:59 PM

G'say all,

A lot of discussion of Scotland back a ways, talking about later uses of words like scot. Of course the country/region names go back to the Roman occupation of the more southerly parts of Britain.

To that pack of opportunists from the Mediterranean regions, the north was untenable: Ireland was Hibernia (essentially, the Land of Winter) and Scotland was Scotia ... which is why we still have Nova Scotia ... Scotia is Greek (spoken widely by educated Romans of those days) for darkness, thus 'Land of Darkness'. In this case, the name passed o the the residents, as the 'Scotii' ... because the Romans needed to have a name ... the locals did not!

I don't believe that any country - or people - is named by its own people. To them, they are simply "Us" ... and where they live is "Here". It's only when someone comes from somewhere else that there is need to make distinctions. We blithely name a "newly discovered" region in our terms, not the residents'.

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: BS: countries that named themselves
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 08 May 02 - 02:57 AM

Objection, Bob. This may be right with jungle tribes, but not with countries civilized since more than 2000 years. My county's name was derived from its central river long ago and given by its inhabitants. In a letter from the pope to St Boniface the latinized form is used, but you clearly can see that the name was in use in its true German form more than 1300 years ago.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: BS: countries that named themselves
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 08 May 02 - 08:15 AM

G'day Wilfied,

I agree that I was using the extreme example - but I believe the principle holds throughout. There is no need for a distinctive name for yourself until you meet up with someone else. The most likely one to seek a label (aka 'name') is the one on unfamiliar ground ... particularly when they come in force. A good example I did not use was the mention way back of Wales.

This is definitely not the preferred country name of those we call Welsh (and they are certainly no 'jungle tribe' ... and were not at the time of the Anglo-Saxon ... Jute &c ... invasion) but they ended up called the Walu (~) - apparently 'Saxon' for "foreigner" in their own country!

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: BS: countries that named themselves
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 08 May 02 - 09:43 AM

Hi, Bob - how right you are! I just looked up "deutsch" in our standard etymologic dictionary. Old thiudisc- is a derivation of Indogermanic teutâ and this means: folk, people.
So all the continental-european German tribes called themselves Deutsch or Dutch, Diets, Dütsch and so on while using their language as opposite to Latin as the language of church and government. In latin texts of Charlemagne's times it appears as theodiscus, but note that the German word is older and given as a name by the people to themselves.
Deutschland (Germany) is a composition of the adjective deutsch and the noun land and appeared first in the 14th century, but not so often; we mostly find deutsches land or in the folksongs of the 16th and 17th century.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: BS: countries that named themselves
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 08 May 02 - 09:45 AM

Insert after or: deutsche nation; bloody machine scratched it out while transmitting.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: BS: countries that named themselves
From: HuwG
Date: 08 May 02 - 02:13 PM

Bob Bolton; this cuts both ways. "Waelisc" (or something like it) = Anglo-Saxon "foreigner"

However, the Welsh (Cymraeg) word, "Saeson", which obviously means "Saxon", has come down the ages as "Sais" which means "English" (person) or "bl***y foreigner".

Other than place-names, or parts of place-names (such as all those rivers named "Avon", after the Welsh "afan", meaning, "river") I can think of very few Welsh words which found their way into English. Those which did aren't usually very complimentary. "Glib" (= shallow, ready, insincere), is one such, from the Welsh "gwlyb", which means "wet", or "slippery". I'll try and think of a few more.

Subject: RE: BS: countries that named themselves
From: HuwG
Date: 08 May 02 - 02:19 PM

Mrrzy - how about the Mexican province (or area) of Yucatan, which means, "What the hell do you want ?" in Maya ?

Subject: RE: BS: countries that named themselves
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 May 02 - 11:21 PM

Interesting discussion. But it is odd that Canada has no vowels in its name. C- eh? N- eh? D- eh?

Just funnin', o country to the east of me.

Subject: RE: BS: countries that named themselves
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 08 May 02 - 11:57 PM

G'day again,

Wilfried: I'm sure the oldest of the German names are (now) German words ... and used by the local people for millenia. But ... I still cleave to the notion that no people has need of a descriptive name until they are confronted by other peoples ... and such descriptions usually come from the people coming in, not the settled ones who have no problem knowing who they are. I also suspect that two or three thousand years allows a lot of space to create endurung "folk myths" about the meaning and derivation.

HuwG: I'm sure you are right about the way the Welsh use Sais ... and it is part of the same process of name-giving (~-calling?) and analogous to similar epithets used by the other Celts of Britain. (Even if the "Saxon" name is somewhat suspicious ... we were all taught that England was taken over, post-Roman Occupation, by "Angles, Jutes and Saxons" - but the linguistic evidence suggests that everyone (well, the Venerable Bede, anyway) forgot to mention the Frisians!

BTW: The risks of accepting (what you think is) the local, native, name are beautifully illustrated by an Australian example. Down in Melbourne, (Victoria, capital of our south-eastern mainland state) they have an annual festival called Moomba: because someone thought that this was the local native language's word for celebration, or something similar.

Lately they have been able to check with source documents and/or native speakers ... and have found the the name of their festival means: Buttocks! Maybe the native enquired of was giving a succinct message to the invader (aka "colonist").

Regard(les)s,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: BS: countries that named themselves
From: mack/misophist
Date: 09 May 02 - 12:24 PM

HuwG: The first book about the Maya I ever read said that Yucatan means "place of deer and turkey". I've seen that elsewhere, since.

Subject: RE: BS: countries that named themselves
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 09 May 02 - 10:08 PM

G'day Misophist,

That sort of description of a place in terms of its resources is another type of naming - and common among first peoples of all nations. Here in Australia, we have the second city of the European settlement: Parramtta - which means place of eels (Hey ... It's all good tucker!) and the Sydney suburb where I was born: Kogarah - place of frogs (also good tucker ... if the French got here a few weeks earlier - those frogs would have been gone in a flash!).

In telling those 'names' the Aboriginal people were not so much 'naming' ... and certainly not 'claiming' ... they were telling others where the food resources could be found and harvested.

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: BS: countries that named themselves
From: CarolC
Date: 10 May 02 - 12:22 AM

Heh. Lost track of this one. My understanding of the preferances of Newfoundlanders with regard to the different flags (from what I was told by one Newfoundlander) is that they usually fly the official Newfoundland and Labrador provincial flag. But a lot of them of them like the tricolor better, although apparently it is seen as a bit separatist. And many Newfoundlanders still have great affection for the British Union Jack.

Subject: RE: BS: countries that named themselves
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 10 May 02 - 08:20 AM

"Coney", as in Coney Island, was pronounced "cunny" in previous centuries. Unfortunately, this also came to be used for a lady's naughty bits (clue: first 3 letters the same in the modern form). In a piece of nursery-speak bowdlerisation reminiscent of Monty Python's "North Minehead by-election", the rabbit-word became "bunny". That must have prevented many an embarrassing mix-up!

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: countries that named themselves
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 10 May 02 - 09:26 AM

G'day Steve,

And keep in mind that a young rabbit is a 'kit' ... indeed a rabbit was often called a 'puss' - althought that was more correct for a hare (Latin = lepus ... misconstrued in French as 'le pus').

Regards,

Bob Bolton