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Authors of Irish Songs

Seamus Kennedy 04 May 02 - 12:15 AM
Joe Offer 04 May 02 - 02:38 AM
GUEST,Hilary, not logged in 04 May 02 - 05:00 AM
Brakn 04 May 02 - 05:07 AM
Big Tim 04 May 02 - 05:22 AM
GUEST,Allan Dennehy 04 May 02 - 07:30 AM
Malcolm Douglas 04 May 02 - 07:54 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 04 May 02 - 09:03 AM
Seamus Kennedy 06 May 02 - 07:18 PM
Seamus Kennedy 07 May 02 - 01:59 AM
Brakn 07 May 02 - 06:43 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 07 May 02 - 07:30 AM
MartinRyan 07 May 02 - 08:37 AM
Ballyholme 07 May 02 - 11:08 AM
Brakn 07 May 02 - 04:56 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 07 May 02 - 05:48 PM
Malcolm Douglas 07 May 02 - 06:09 PM
GUEST,Nick Kelly 07 May 02 - 06:56 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 07 May 02 - 07:19 PM
The Pooka 07 May 02 - 08:38 PM
curmudgeon 07 May 02 - 09:16 PM
Seamus Kennedy 13 May 02 - 02:22 AM
GUEST,firínne 18 May 02 - 07:24 PM
Malcolm Douglas 18 May 02 - 09:04 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 May 02 - 08:02 PM
Malcolm Douglas 19 May 02 - 08:14 PM
Mr Happy 20 May 02 - 08:03 AM
McGrath of Harlow 20 May 02 - 08:56 AM
GUEST,Bill Kennedy 20 May 02 - 10:08 AM
Mr Happy 20 May 02 - 10:25 AM
Malcolm Douglas 20 May 02 - 11:49 AM
GUEST 22 Apr 16 - 12:48 PM
GUEST,Gealt 23 Apr 16 - 10:53 AM
Stilly River Sage 23 Apr 16 - 12:24 PM
GUEST,Gealt 23 Apr 16 - 03:12 PM
MGM·Lion 23 Apr 16 - 07:06 PM
GUEST 23 Apr 16 - 07:47 PM
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Subject: BS: Authors of Irish Songs
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 04 May 02 - 12:15 AM

Hi Catters! I need a little help. I've checked in the DT, and can't find the authors of the following songs, which leads me to believe that they may be "Trad."
The Enniskillen Dragoons
Mary From Dungloe
Kitty Of Coleraine (thread)
She Moved Thro' The Fair (thread)
My Homeland, Donegal
An Old Irish Song
Beautiful Ireland
Noreen Bawn (thread)
Thanks for any and all assistance.

Seamus


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Subject: RE: Authors of Irish Songs
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 May 02 - 02:38 AM

Hi, Seamus - as I was making links of your song list, I found a thread in which Kevin McGrath said "She moved through the fair" was written by Padraic Colum 1881-1972.
That's the only one I found songwriter information on.
Note that we're missing lyrics for a few of the songs on your list. Care to contribute?
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Authors of Irish Songs
From: GUEST,Hilary, not logged in
Date: 04 May 02 - 05:00 AM

Hi Seamus, Soodlum's gives

George Sigerson as the author of 'The Enniskillen Dragoon'

Colm O'Loughlin/O'Louchlainn as the author of Mary From Dungloe. (It's spelt both ways in the same book)

Hilary


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Subject: RE: Authors of Irish Songs
From: Brakn
Date: 04 May 02 - 05:07 AM

Mary From Dungloe - Colm O'Loughlainn

Kitty Of Coleraine - Charles Dawson Shanly or Edward Lysaght
(both claimed it)

Noreen Bawn - J. M. Crofts

"My Homeland, Donegal" is that "This is my homeland, the place I was born in"

"An Old Irish Song" is that the one done by Daniel O'Donnell....."Sing Me An Old Irish Song"


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Subject: RE: Authors of Irish Songs
From: Big Tim
Date: 04 May 02 - 05:22 AM

What's the authority for Colm O'Lochlainn as "Dungloe" composer? I'd always thought he was "just" a collector. (I seem to also recall that he fought in the Easter Rising).

Similiary; authority for Colum as composer of "She Moved Through the Fair"? Just collected it? Did he also write or collect "Star of the County Down"? In their younger years he and Joseph "My Lagan Love, "Gartan Mother's Lullaby" Campbell were good friends in Belfast, Campbell's mother calling him "wee Pat"!


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Subject: RE: Authors of Irish Songs
From: GUEST,Allan Dennehy
Date: 04 May 02 - 07:30 AM

Not sure but I think it was Patrick Kavanagh who wrote "She moved through the fair." Famous Irish Poet, died of drink in the sixties.


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Subject: RE: Authors of Irish Songs
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 04 May 02 - 07:54 AM

Lochlainn did not write Mary from Dungloe, and never claimed to have done so. His notes (Irish Street Ballads)read: "Learned from W. Feenan, fisherman of Ardglass, 1913. He had learned it from a Donegal girl; a variant of the air was sung to another ballad - Donegal's the place for all, 'tis there I'd like to be. I gave this to D.J.O'S who printed it in IFSxviii, 29."

Pádraic Colum adapted She Moved Through the Fair from traditional sources, much as Yeats did with The Sally Garden; it was first published, so far as I know, by Herbert Hughes in 1909. There is much more detail in the various and lengthy past discussions here of that song, though my theory that it was Margaret Barry who introduced my dead love to it was wrong; at present it looks as if it was actually John McCormack who was responsible. There is no connection with Patrick Kavanagh.

The text of Star of the County Down, according to Colm O Lochlainn, was written by Cathal McGarvey (who is also credited with The Devil and Bailiff McGlynn). It seems first to have been published (without attribution) by Herbert Hughes in 1936, and was likely written in the 1920s or a little earlier.


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Subject: RE: Authors of Irish Songs
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 04 May 02 - 09:03 AM

As mentioned in the relevant thread, I am still unaware of any version of "She moves through the fair" that predates the four verses widely attributed to Padraic Colum. I'm still inclined to think it's his song.


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Subject: RE: Authors of Irish Songs
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 06 May 02 - 07:18 PM

Thanks everyone! Joe as soon as I have a moment, I'll add the lyrics. Brakn, thanks for the Kitty and Noreen authors, and yes, that is the correct My Homeland Donegal and Old irish Song; any ideas on the authors there?
I'm pretty sure that Colm O' Lochlainn collected Mary From Dungloe, and did not write it.
And one of my sources said that Padraic Colum collected and adapted She Moved through the Fair.
The Enniskillen Dragoon as blue clickied by Joe is the original by Sigerson, I believe, but the version I'm interested in is somewhat different.
Our ship was made ready at the dawn of the day,
From Lovely Enniskillen they were marching us away,
They put us then on board a ship to cross the ragin' main
To fight in bloody battle in the sunny land of Spain.

Fare thee well, Enniskillen, fare thee well for awhile,
And all around the borders of Erin's Green Isle,
And when the war is over, we'll return in full bloom,
And we'll all welcome home our Enniskillen Dragoons.
I have a sneaky suspicion this version was written/adapted by Tommy Makem.
Thanks again for all the help.

Seamus


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Subject: RE: Authors of Irish Songs
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 07 May 02 - 01:59 AM

The Mudcat is a great place for all sorts of musical information.Thanks again for your help.

Seamus


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Subject: RE: Authors of Irish Songs
From: Brakn
Date: 07 May 02 - 06:43 AM

My Homeland Donegal or Home to Donegal written by P. Kavanagh.

I have "Sing Me An Old Irish Song" on a tape somewhere.....will try and find it.


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Subject: RE: Authors of Irish Songs
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 07 May 02 - 07:30 AM

Seamus, can you recall the source that suggests Colum collected/adapted "She moved through the fair" by any chance?


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Subject: RE: Authors of Irish Songs
From: MartinRyan
Date: 07 May 02 - 08:37 AM

Fionn

See Sam Henry's "Songs of the People" on "Our Wedding Day" and "Out of the Window".

Regards


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Subject: RE: Authors of Irish Songs
From: Ballyholme
Date: 07 May 02 - 11:08 AM

Jackie Boyce posted a beautiful set of words for "The Star of the County Down" which may be the predecessor for the more popular version. I would suggest that all the songs mentioned in this posting are traditional in origin but that the versions we regard as "definitive" are adaptions or arrangements of them.


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Subject: RE: Authors of Irish Songs
From: Brakn
Date: 07 May 02 - 04:56 PM

An Old Irish Song written by B. Graham.


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Subject: RE: Authors of Irish Songs
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 May 02 - 05:48 PM

Contemplator says "She Moves..." was collected in Donegal in 1909. It has alternate titles "Our Wedding Day" and "Out of the Window." Padraic Colum arranged it into its most common form (there are other more recent revisions). As noted in other threads, Ossian reckons that the tune is Medieval.
Apparently Contemplator's data is partly from the long thread: She Moves
This thread has a lot of information, but some of it is the usual empty speculation. See Malcolm Douglas's posts in this thread for a more reliable viewpoint.

The version in the DT makes the usual mistake substituting "kind" for "kine." Kine, meaning cows. In other words, the gal was poor and had little to offer beyond her (we infer) good looks and her enchanting ways.

The DT could do with a couple more versions, including Padraic Colum's adaptation. Colum, by the way, was quite a poet in his own right, writing 2-3 books of poetry after he came to America. He compiled the Anthology of Irish Poetry, published first in 1922 and reproduced in Bartleby. His poetic ability is probably the reason some infer that he was the author of the poem.


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Subject: RE: Authors of Irish Songs
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 07 May 02 - 06:09 PM

Actually, She Moved Through the Fair appeared with kind rather than kine in Hughes' Irish Country Songs (1909); the first appearance of Colum's adaptation in print, I think. "Kind" can also mean goods or property, though it's rarely used in that sense now.


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Subject: RE: Authors of Irish Songs
From: GUEST,Nick Kelly
Date: 07 May 02 - 06:56 PM

Hello Seamus,

You are indeed right about that version of "Enniskillen Dragoons". It was adapated and re-written by Tommy Makem as "Fare thee well, Enniskillen"...for what's its worth.

Nick


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Subject: RE: Authors of Irish Songs
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 May 02 - 07:19 PM

My mistake, Malcolm. Kind it is.


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Subject: RE: Authors of Irish Songs
From: The Pooka
Date: 07 May 02 - 08:38 PM

Seamus & Nick - I think the "Enniskillen Dragoons" version in the DT is, word-for-word or very nearly, the Makemized edition -- with "New Verses by Tommy Makem, Feb. 7, 1963", sayeth his website; for which,
Click here


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Subject: RE: Authors of Irish Songs
From: curmudgeon
Date: 07 May 02 - 09:16 PM

Fare Thee Well Enniskillen is the title of the regimental march of the Enniskillen Dragoons, and is most likely trad. I have an older album of the Marches of the British Army which I cannot lay my hands on in the dark which includes that along with other well known trad tunes such as My Boy Willie (Royal Tank Corps) the Linclonshire Poacher (the Lincolnshire Regiment) and others that have slipped my mind.

-- Tom


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Subject: RE: Authors of Irish Songs
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 13 May 02 - 02:22 AM

Once again, Pooka, Nick, Brakn, Fionn, thanks to all for the input. Fionn, my source for She Moved Through The Fair is Folksongs & Ballads Popular In Ireland collected, arranged and edited by John Loesberg, Ossian Publications, 1980. Ossian Publications, 21 Iona Green Cork, Ireland. The quote by the author says: the song was collected in Donegal by Herbert Hughes and the words were re-written by Padraic Colum.

All the best.

Seamus


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Subject: RE: Authors of Irish Songs
From: GUEST,firínne
Date: 18 May 02 - 07:24 PM

I may be a bit late with this...........but kine is the word. One example is the song 'The Snowy-breasted Pearl'. Quote 'There are maidens would be mine....with wealth in land and kine...'. Kine is another word for cattle, a sign of being well-to-do, not necessarily rich though!


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Subject: RE: Authors of Irish Songs
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 18 May 02 - 09:04 PM

Snowy Breasted Pearl notwithstanding, the word used in She Moved Through the Fair is, as I explained earlier, kind. So far as I know, where the phrase occurs in traditional relatives of the song, it is always kind, except in one example; Our Wedding Day, no. H534 in Sam Henry's Songs of the People (Huntington, 1990). The editors commented: "Henry's is the only version among those cited which substitutes kine (cattle) for Colum's kind (standing or property inherent by birth)."


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Subject: RE: Authors of Irish Songs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 May 02 - 08:02 PM

I'd say "kind" is more likely, since it's a rhyme word for "mind", and the sense of the word as meaning goods is common enough. It even survives in the expression "payment in kind".

That note in the Ossian book reads to me as if whoever wrote it assumed that being in Herbert Hughes book Irish Country Songs in 1909 meant he must have collected it in the wild, whereas it appears likely enough that Hughes would have got it from Padraic Colum in the first place. Maybe if someone's got a copy of the book it might clarify things.

I'm always very doubtful about comments in song books and the back of record covers and that. The people writing them don't necessarily know any more about it than the rest of us.

It strikes me as likely that Padraic Colum wrote it, using traditional material in the process, which I imagine is how most songs in the tradition were created anyway; and it promptly went back into the tradition and got changed again in various ways.


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Subject: RE: Authors of Irish Songs
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 19 May 02 - 08:14 PM

It's kind, as I've already said twice; I wasn't joking. Hughes attributes She Moved Thro' the Fair thus: "Pádraic Colum: adapted from an old ballad. County Donegal."

End of information; end of story.


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Subject: RE: Authors of Irish Songs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 20 May 02 - 08:03 AM

a query about sally gardens.

i'm part of a trio & this is one of the songs we do

we were wondering about this nme & jim suggested it could be from latin; 'salix'- kind of tree, i don't recall the usual name

any ideas?


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Subject: RE: Authors of Irish Songs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 May 02 - 08:56 AM

"Adapted from" still leaves it open as to whether that means that Padraic Colum passed on the words with minimal changes, or whether he used the older ballad as something out of which to make a new song.

After all every sculptor carving a statue is adapting it from a bit of rock. Cutting out the stuff you don't need is an important part of the creative process. As with Yeats' reworking of the song he trimmed down into "Down by the Sally Gardens", or the transformation by Francis McPeake of The Braes of Balquidder into "Will ye go lassie go". Or the way that selective memory and so forth over the years has transformed any number of songs from doggerel into poetry.

Salix is the Latin for willow, and "saileach" is the Irish, so that seems to bear out Happiness's idea. And it gives an additional resonance to the song, since willow trees are supposed to be particularly beloved by water spirits. (And with Yeats being so into magic and the folklore of it, that might well have been what he was thinking about in the rest of it, what with the grass growing on the weirs and all.)


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Subject: RE: Authors of Irish Songs
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 20 May 02 - 10:08 AM

there is no question as to 'Sally Gardens' being the area where people harvested willow branches for basketmaking etc. it does indeed come from the Irish word for willow. NOT a girls name, as many people mistakenly believe on first hearing it.


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Subject: RE: Authors of Irish Songs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 20 May 02 - 10:25 AM

thanks mr mcgrath + billk, the song name makes far more sense now.

also, i was wondering about 2 other songs we do; carrickfergus & the water is wide. they're almost the same story. is c/fergus derived from wiw?


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Subject: RE: Authors of Irish Songs
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 20 May 02 - 11:49 AM

Quite a few European languages share what is essentially the same word for willow; sallow or sally in English, probably derived from Old English salh (Anglian) or sealh, seales (West Saxon); salix in Latin; seileach in Scottish Gaelic; saule in French, and so on. In the context of Yeats' poem, sall[e]y is more likely to be an Anglicisation of the Irish Gaelic word than a borrowing of the English word; but it's a fine distinction.

Relationships between The Water is Wide and Carrickfergus have been discussed at some length in previous threads; the "Digitrad and Forum Search" on the main Forum page will find these for you if you ask it.


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Subject: RE: Authors of Irish Songs - Enniskillen
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Apr 16 - 12:48 PM

I have found three sets of lyrics that appear to be to the "Fare Thee Well Enniskillen" tune (see below). Does anyone know which is the original version and how far back in time it goes. Is it possible any of the date from the Napoleonic period?

1) The Tommy Makem version cited by Sheamus

2) A version with a slightly different chorus and totally different verses, starting:
CHORUS:
Fare ye well, Enniskillen, I must leave you for a while
And all round the borders of Erin's green isle
And when the war is over we'll return in full bloom
And they'll all welcome home their Enniskillen dragoons
VERSE:
A beautiful damsel of fame and renown
A rich merchant's daughter from Monaghan town
As she drove by the barracks this beautiful maid
Stood up in her coach to see Dragoons on parade...

3) Third version, somewhat similar to 2):
CHORUS:
Fare thee well Enniskillen, fare thee well for a while
To all your fair waters and every green isle
Oh, your green isle will flourish your fair waters flow
While I from old Ireland an exile must go.
VERSE:
Her hair is as brown as the young raven's wing
Her eyes are as clear as the blue-bell of spring
And light was her laugh like the sun on the sea
Till the weight of the world came between her and me.


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Subject: RE: Authors of Irish Songs
From: GUEST,Gealt
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 10:53 AM

http://secondhandsongs.com/work/116516/versions

It is interesting to note the span of artists who have recorded 'She Moved Through the Fair' including John McCormack, Odetta, Carolyn Hester, Bert Jansch, Louis Stewart, Rory Gallagher and Davey Graham who called his instrumental piece 'She Moved Thru' the Bizarre'(Padraic Colum, arr Davey Graham)


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Subject: RE: Authors of Irish Songs
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 12:24 PM

Pardon the pedantry, but that should be the "Bazaar" - a fair - not "Bizarre" - meaning strange or unusual.

There are a few search engine hits on hits on "bizarre" in the song title, but that is probably due to autocorrect errors or posters not knowing the difference.


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Subject: RE: Authors of Irish Songs
From: GUEST,Gealt
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 03:12 PM

Pettifog as you wish, Acme. I have 2 cds, Davey Graham-After Hours(1997) & The Roots of Led Zeppelin(MOJO 2004) which have this tune & bizarrely the contentious title on both is 'She Moved Thru' the Bizarre'.
Davey Graham died in 2008.


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Subject: RE: Authors of Irish Songs
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 07:06 PM

Davey surely meant a joke: -- a pun on 'bazaar' = fair, and 'bizarre' epitomising the sort of oddballs he was suggesting might have been expected to attend such an event. ????

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: Authors of Irish Songs
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 07:47 PM

Fair comment! ;>)>


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