BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 May 02 - 02:14 AM

Well, blessings on you, wvpreacher. I agree...God is for all people (and indeed, all of creation)...not against them, regardless of their beliefs. It's people who are inclined to be against other people, due to their fear and their misunderstanding of the central purposes of life. We are constantly sustained, constantly given what we truly need, given life, consciousness, and existence, whether or not we recognize it, and given free will to do with it what we will. What generosity. If people loved themselves as much as God loves them, and loved all other beings that way too...

It would utterly transform the world.

And if someone out there doesn't believe that...it's okay with me. You've got a perfect right to believe whatever makes sense to you from where you're standing, and to try it out and see if it works for you. You will find through direct experience the answers you seek...maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but you will find them eventually.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 May 02 - 01:03 AM

wvpreacher, "BS" just means we are going to shoot the breeze about something that isn't music. That's all. It's just a way for people who strongly prefer music threads to sort out the huge long list of threads around here, and believe me, it can get pretty confusing without that BS prefix. You can get stuck here all day just seeing what the topics are about, opening each thread just to look. Then you don't have the time or energy PLAY any music!

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: GUEST,wvpreacher
Date: 06 May 02 - 12:53 AM

The most mind blowing thing that ever happened to me was when I finally realized that God was for me not against me. That God wanted me to be happy so much that God would shake history to make me happy. It does not matter how angry we are at God, at our parents, at those who victimize us and make us feel powerless, God is still for us. God is so for us that within Godself God is praying for us. I mean to sound like a Christian here Jesus Christ stands before his and our heavenly Father always interceding for us, for our wholeness, for our healing, for our peace of mind. The Holy Spirit lives in us and prays for us we we cannot. When we don't know what to pray and more so when we have been so devastated that we cannot and even will not pray to a God who seems so unconcerned for us, God is within Godself praying for us. It doesn't matter if we want God praying for us or not, God is praying for us. I doesn't matter if we don't acknowledge the existence of God. God stills prays "for" us because that's the way God "is". Yes, God wants us to be saved but that doesn't mean be baptized or be beheaded or see everything God's way or go to hell. It just means that God is constantly working, constantly shaking history so that each of us will come to be "at home", come to feel loved enough that we will love others, come to be able to have enough insight into our lives to see past our own shit and to work at getting beyond it, come to accept our own worth, and maybe even come to be aware that God is everywhere and in everything and every event "for us."

So why do people feel uncomfortable with "I'm praying for you?" I know that when people have said this to me regardless of who they were it confronts me with the awareness that my life is not in my control and makes me feel powerless. I have an aversion to that feeling. There are events in my life about whihc I have had to step back and ask where was God and how could God have a will that includes this painful mess. But it eventually all works out to my good if I let it. I think that many people don't want to hear someone "I'll pray for you" because they don't want and even cannot at this moment accept that God is "for us." Yes indeedy (Ned Flanders quote), it is proper etiquite (spell checks don't work in the mudcat) not to say those words (even under the best intentions) unless invited to do so or you know the person really well because the words can make another feel victimized and worthless. Saying "I'll pray for you" often little more than self-comfort and part of our own issues. It is a greater expression of love to exercise good listening skills and keep the prayers silent. Afterall, this is what God does.

P.S. Why do so many of the "religious threads begin with BS: ?

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: Bill D
Date: 06 May 02 - 12:17 AM

Jerry R posted..

".... What's all the confusion about what an Atheist is? By definition it means someone who does not believe in the existence of God."

gee, I suppose so technically, but it has always seems a LOT more complicated than that to me. I do not 'believe' in a surpreme being, but I can't prove there is not one, so according to Pascal, I am taking a VERY big chance. But with so many religions offering different interpretations of the setup & rules, it seems to me ANYONE who picks one is taking a chance...ask a Jehovah's Witness or a Mormon what is required to get to Heaven..(or ask a Muslim)....it is also possible that those who do 'believe' are wasting their time....

But, that is their privilege, and I will defend it!...as long as **I** am allowed to NOT belong....The USA was founded to allow freedom, not to coerce or endorse some particular brand of religion. But now the Pledge of Allegance asks us to say 'under God' and our money states that "we" trust in God...and I see SO many references to the US being a 'Christian nation', when all it is supposed to be is a nation that ALLOWS free belief......

...now, with all that pressure, (especially in areas that encourage open prayer at public events), it is VERY difficult to be openly and calmly NON-religious. (Tryrunning for a serious public office and refusing to identify yourself with a 'standard' sect!) I do appreciate those Christians who do NOT push & proselytize, but YOU ARE OUTNUMBERED by those who do!!! So when I get messages that I am being "prayed for", I am assuming that someone is afraid my poor immortal 'soul' is in danger, and they need to intercede on my behalf...and it is quite uncomfortable to keep quiet, and even MORE awkward to TELL well-meaning Christians that "I am NOT in danger, thankyouverymuch".

Kendall said "It can't hurt", and prayers I never know about don't make much difference, but it CAN hurt to openly confront someone with socio-religious pressure that they are not comfortable with, so I do NOT go knocking on doors of Christians trying to get them to stop going to church...now why can't they give me the same privilege?

I do understand that VERY basic tenets in some denominations include the idea that knowing the 'truth' obligates one to try to spread the truth, and that 'witnessing' and converting and being missionaries is central and unavoidable....but we all have seen recent instances of what that can lead to (like in Afghanistan).....

...so, I, like Jerry R., have friends in almost all camps on the issue, and I will honor and defend ALL those folks rights to believe what they will, (and will debate it IF ASKED), but please, my friends....if you MUST include me in your prayers, pray silently for me...not at me....*smile*

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: catspaw49
Date: 06 May 02 - 12:04 AM

I think there is so much that we don't understand, that is impossible to document or prove, that sometimes we spend more time justifying a belief than we do enjoying life.

I'm an agnostic......I don't know the answers and I ain't real sure of the questions either. I have absolutely no idea about the hows or whys and I have long since ceased to care. But there are a few things I am sure of...........

If you have a belief that makes you feel good, makes your life better somehow, makes it easier to love people and open your heart and mind to theirs, and doesn't walk on or judge another's belief, then whatever you got is a good thing even if you believe in Hector the Frog Prince of Gobbaloopada. And when you offer your best in prayers or chants or thoughts or whatever on behalf of yourself and Hector for me because I am having a hard time, feel free to do it and I'll love you for it. I have been prayed over by folks of every persuasion and I know that whatever it was they gave to me when I needed it, it made a difference. You say, "But Spaw, that's all in your head," and though it may be, it's a damn good place for it because the mind has a tremendous control over the body....and that can be proven. Anyone needing a reminder of this one, feel free to go back to exactly this time three years ago and find some threads like, "Catspaw; Read This" and the subsequent 500 posts that followed.

Sister Connie has a strong and abiding faith in God, her Church, and her beliefs. Before the "valve job" a friend of hers, Jim, stopped in at the hospital the night before surgery and this guy was just one of those completely wired-up Christians. He was also an interesting human being and we talked for a half hour or so. He had made the visit because he knew and liked Connie and had gone well out of his way to see me that night. I didn't believe what he believed, but he was happy in it and I knew that he was bringing me what his best was. I knew too that his visit made Connie feel better. So when he asked if we could pray, I said I'd be happy to. He said his prayer and left after a few more words of conversation. Connie was happy to hear about it. Jim was happy because he felt he had helped some other human beings. I was happy because he was a decent guy and we'd had a nice talk and it's boring as hell the night before a surgery. Plus, I felt good because I knew Jim did and Connie would too..........and what the hell did it hurt to allow Jim his beliefs and his prayer? Maybe I should have argued? Maybe a debate huh?

If it works for you and it feels good and it's not harming others.....go for it. If it's directed at you or for you by one of those folks, enjopy it. And let's all try to put our energy into enjoying our lives and not worrying too much about kicking the ass of Hector or his mates.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 05 May 02 - 11:13 PM

I figure when someone crosses our mind and we think about them, that is some sort of form of prayer. It is subtle and natural. Within that moment something significantly important is going on.

Hi Guys!!!!!!!
Little Neo

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 May 02 - 10:47 PM

Deda - Well said.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 05 May 02 - 10:14 PM

Hi, you old Misophist, you: You've identified the two extremes of this issue, without acknowledging all the ground inbetween. I don't pray for people because I think that I'm better than them. I have several wonderful, loving, mutually supportive friendships. Some of my friends are deeply committed Christians, some are Muslims, some are Agnostics and some are Atheists. Some might even be misophists. Fine people, trying to live an honorable, loving life. I've known people who are selfish, dishonest and mean-spirited, too. Some are Christians, some are jews some are Agnostics and some are Atheists. Nobody's got a corner on idiots. I am also not hurt if someone is offended that I told them that I prayed for them. I would apologize for offending them, and never mention it to them again. But, as I said, I have many Agnostic and Atheist friends who have expressed their appreciation for my prayers. Some have asked me to pray for them. But, if it's offensive, I would certainly never mention it again.

Praying for someone is not condescending or an expression of superiority (although certainly there are people who pray with that attitude.) I've also never run across anyone whose prayers were a threat or an insult. I don't deny that you've experienced that, and I'm sorry you have. Prayers come in all shapes and sizes, but if you're going to generalize, I think that most prayers are for the well-being of others.

Ya know, Misophist, we're all just trying to make it through these days, trying to make some sense out of our lives. You, me, Tracy K, Clinton, Bobert, Kendall... and all the rest of us. As Leadbelly sang, "we're in the same boat, brother." Life is hard. We can make it a little easier if we're trying to help each other, each in our own way. Your way is different than mine, as is Tracy K's and Kendall's. I don't pray that anyone else will be as good as me. I pray that I can be as good as I have the potential to be.

By the way, what is a Misophist? You're not in my dictionary.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: bbc
Date: 05 May 02 - 09:55 PM

As a Christian, I have somewhat mixed feelings about saying I will pray for someone. I say it gladly to those who know me & share my beliefs. People at work will come to me to share their concerns & ask me to pray &, again, I do so, gladly. I pray for more people than I inform that I am doing so. When I *do* let them know, it's intended as a show of love & support, not as a rejection of where they are, spiritually, or as a form of coercion. I, as a believer, don't respond well to hard-sell Christianity, so I try to not put others in that position, either. At the same time, if I don't let people know that being a Christian is at the heart of much of what I am, I deprive them of the opportunity to share what I have. Each of us must find our own way & choose how we will go, but, sometimes, others can help us along.

best to all,

bbc

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: Bobert
Date: 05 May 02 - 08:56 PM

I'm gonna agree with DougR. Yep, he needs all the prayers he can get. Jus' funnin with ya, Buddy. Really. Hey, the act of praying for someone is a way that those of Faith convey their caring ot love for that person. What the heck is wrong with that. Like Jerry, I pray for a lot of folks who don't have a clue I'm praying for them. I have a prayer each day where I have a list of folks I have been thinking of get special attention. So in this world were folks seem so insensitive to others they don't know (and others who they do know) having one pray for you is a blessing...

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: kendall
Date: 05 May 02 - 08:13 PM

Thanks Doug; I'm sure that with my prayers you will see the light and become a democrat! LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: DougR
Date: 05 May 02 - 07:39 PM

I'm going to side with kendall on this one. I need all the help I can get.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 05 May 02 - 07:02 PM

There are two different sides here that aren't listening to each other. One side is saying "I offer my prayers because I'm a good person and I'm hurt that you take offense at it." The other side, of which I am a member, is saying "People who have approached me in the past with comments like that have run the gamut from insulting to threatening and I don't like it". I have been there. I have experienced 'offers for prayer' that were just short of threats against my life. There may be others like me here. While I grant that you are probably all fine people, please try not to push any of my buttons as I try not to push yours.

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: Amos
Date: 05 May 02 - 07:02 PM

I don't think exerting the power of prayer is a muscular exertion of the "individual" spirit. When you're in them waters, there is no way to tell where your piece of water ends and the rest of the lake begins; and if the whole is not in harmony with the urgent pleadings of the self, then it may be time for the self to take down its divisions, like an ice cube that melts in clear sunlit lake water. 'Course, this can upset some ice cubes more than others:>).

Well, that's just "my" opinion, o' course. I'll jest pray for you who don't see it "my" way!! LOL! The idea of identities arguing about the Infinite cracks me up, to tell you the truth!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: kendall
Date: 05 May 02 - 06:41 PM

Instead of getting your quills up, ask yourself, "What harm can it do"?

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: Deda
Date: 05 May 02 - 06:18 PM

First, the prefix a-, as in atheist or amoral, is called "privative a" and it's Greek in origin, not Latin, as far as I know.

Second, I always welcome anyone else's prayers for me. Even if it's someone whose beliefs are unlike mine, I think the basic action of someone praying for me can only be good--although Larry Dossey, whom Amos cited, does discuss the practice of "black prayer", praying for vengeance or praying for harm.

Amos suggests, I think, that the effectiveness of prayer is just the power of one's own spiritual/psychic energy working over long distances, like secret muscles that we never suspected we had, and that we barely have any clue how to use. I think that prayer is a petition (or a "thank you", or praise) to a higher power, who has a separate will from mine, and whom people have termed God and have (rather irrationally) assigned a masculine gender. I think I'm very strongly connected to this power, but I am not it (except in the best part of me, and then only as a reflection through a prism "is" the sun) and it is not me. It is capable of saying No to my most urgent pleas. It is capable of surprising me with un-asked for and unexpected gifts. It is beyond language, so any terms that we try to use about it are subject to terrible misinterpretation, even to the point of violent, self-righteous aggression--which is about as far removed from what this power is about as one can get, imho. When someone says "I'll pray for you", whether that someone is an orthodox Jew or a Bhuddist (yes, I know, unlikely) or a Jehovah's witness or a Holy Roller or a Presbyterian or a Muslim, I accept that gratefully, because I take that to mean, "I'll try to draw the Higher Power's attention to you more closely". Thanks, yes, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 May 02 - 05:55 PM

Terry K - No, I think insincere prayer...or the prayers of bigoted religious fanatics are comparable to "smooth talking". I can see that we actually have a fair bit to discuss...possibly...but I'm pressed for time now. I'll be back in a while.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: pict
Date: 05 May 02 - 05:50 PM

Personally speaking I just wish that religious people would keep their religion to themselves.I try not to inflict my beliefs on other people the same can not generally be said of religion followers and the statement"I'll pray for you" in my experience is a toe in the water to test for how receptive a person is to accepting a load of religious dogma,so I like to nip it firmly in the bud by declaring my complete and utter lack of interest in following any religious doctrine.

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 May 02 - 05:14 PM

As others have said, it is not a fear thing. I do not want people who do not know me to pray for me, unless I have requested it. I do not pray, but I do "gratitudes" always visualising and giving thanks "for this or something better for the highest good of all concerned" and only when it is requested. I consider that the highest form of respect for all spiritual beliefs.

Some First Nations' beliefs are of "thanks giving" rather than pleading. This has come to be the best way for me to communicate in a meaningful way in matters of a spiritual nature. Too often prayer to me represents a helpless, victimhood state with which I do not wish to be associated.

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 05 May 02 - 05:04 PM

Ooops!... I meant, "and respect them too." My spell checker thought it was right... :-)

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 05 May 02 - 05:02 PM

Believing that there is no God is still a belief. Just like I don't believe there are aliens scoping out earth. What's all the confusion about what an Atheist is? By definition it means someone who does not believe in the existence of God. As Terry K states. And yes, that is 180 degrees from where I am. I think we're getting caught up in an excercise wheel, here. I can respect anyone's belief that there is no God. And respect them to.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 May 02 - 04:55 PM

Whatta ya mean-"you forgive me?" I didn't ask for your forgiveness! Grrrrrrr

:)

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: greg stephens
Date: 05 May 02 - 04:50 PM

Some of you Mudcatters have disagreed with me in the past, particularly on topics like the "meaning of folk". I want you all to know that I pray for you to become enlightened, and for the scales to fall from your eyes that ye may see the light. I hope you dont find this patronising in any way, it's for your own good. And I forgive you all.

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: Bill D
Date: 05 May 02 - 04:31 PM

I assume that I sometimes get mentioned in 'prayers' by others, but telling me that it is happening, if you KNOW I am not of that persuasion is pretty presumptuous....and if you don't know me, you should ask what I DO think of it all.

On the other had, knowing that someone really cares feels good! We can trade good wishes and supportive thoughts without dueling belief systems..

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: Terry K
Date: 05 May 02 - 04:21 PM

LH, talk to Jerry Rasmussen, he'll agree with you, as in "...atheism is a belief system too..." - er, hello, is anyone home?

The word "a" (it's Latin) added to the word "theism" gets us the complete absence of theism, therefore the complete absence of a belief in a deity system, therefore just about 180 degrees from where Jerry thinks he is.

People can be atheist because they are entirely ignorant of the existence of theism, as in new born babies before being got at by the brainwashing of the theists. People can be atheists by thinking beyond the theist brainwashing and letting the matter rest right there.

Those atheists who become anti-theist are those who oppose the theist movement and perhaps blame religious differences for most of the world's ills. Get it?

As for the attempt to belittle my point about the external effect of prayer by comparing it with inter-personal influence exerted by, inter alia, life assurance salesmen - er, do you really understand what is meant by prayer - do you really think it's comparable to smooth talking?

TK

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: Jeanie
Date: 05 May 02 - 04:19 PM

Jesus gives this advice about prayer:

"When you pray, go away by yourself, shut the door behind you, and pray to your Father secretly. Then your Father, who knows all secrets, will reward you." (Matthew 6:6)

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: irishajo
Date: 05 May 02 - 03:52 PM

I think many atheists/agnostics would say that prayer offends them as opposed to scares them. Not the act of prayer in and of itself, but rather assuming that the atheist in question would want to be prayed for and would appreciate the gesture.

Personally, it depends on who's doing the praying and why. I think prayer is more about unloading your inner angst onto god/the divine/the universe rather than trying to change circumstances. If someone 'feels my pain' and wants to communicate that to what they consider the divine, then I am more likely to be grateful than offended. If however they are praying for me to see the light and accept the omniscience of a particular god, of course that's not going to go over well.

I looked at the blurb on amazon about the book Amos mentioned - it brings up the point that if prayer really does provide beneficial effects, can we ethically pray for someone without their consent? (We can't treat someone for a disease without their consent.)

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: Amos
Date: 05 May 02 - 03:37 PM

It ain't the mumbo jumbo that does it -- it's the jimbo-jambo. Anyone knows that!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 May 02 - 01:38 PM

Well, of course she thought that, Soph! Everyone knows witches all wear broad brimmed hats and green capes...it's a dead giveaway! :-)

Terry K - "Anti-theism" is an expression you use, Terry, not me, so you define it. I would also be fascinated to hear your definition of atheism, so please...enlighten us.

Keep in mind that a given word means only what you think it means...to you...and probably means something a bit different to someone else. Thus the word "God" may mean a mythical concept to one person, an omnipotent wrathful heavenly deity with a long white beard to another, and an impersonal force of nature to a third...etc...unto an infinite number of possible interpretations.

As for: "I just find it pathetic that otherwise intelligent people can believe that their particular brand of mumbo jumbo can have any effect on another person. Yeah, that's what I think too, when I hear priests, politicians, scientists who are enamoured of some arcane pet theory of their own (like Desmond Morris, fore example), life insurance salesmen, and psychiatrists spouting their favourite jargon...it's certainly pathetic all right! They DO manage to affect some people though...but they don't affect clever and highly intelligent people like you and me, now...do they? (*sarcasm)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: sophocleese
Date: 05 May 02 - 12:53 PM

I am not scared of people saying they will pray for me. If its a friend who is religious I know its meant in friendship to help and show support. If its a complete stranger I am amused, wondering what there is in my behaviour or clothing that makes them think I need praying for. As a teenager I was barred from the house of one friend because his mother thought that as I was wearing a broad brimmed hat and a green cape I was a witch. It wasn't a house where most of us wanted to gather anyway so it was no loss and when I did show up next summer in a bathing suit she didn't recognize me. On those occasions when I do get offended its because the underlying message isn't helpful its either evangelical or patronizing.

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: kendall
Date: 05 May 02 - 11:45 AM

No sweat CH.

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: Jeri
Date: 05 May 02 - 11:03 AM

I think Jerry nailed it. If the statement "I'll pray for you" is interpreted as coming from a friend and is meant as "I love you/I care about you," it's good. Others can say the same thing, and it can mean something quite diffeerent. It CAN - I think perhaps there are a lot of motives attributed to people based on not knowing them - prejudice. I haven't met that many people who have that "holier than thou" agenda, but I have met some. (Although it's possible a statement of "I'll be thinking of you" is insincere, it's quite difficult to interpret it as "holier than thou.") Sometimes, all it takes is one bad experience to sensitize a person to the statement, without regard to what the person saying it means.

"Fear" isn't what it is; prayer doesn't "scare" people. If people interpret the stated intention to pray as an opportunity to say "I'm better than you," I think what it causes is irritation or anger. The degree depends on how sensitized the person doing the reacting is - how much of a hair trigger they have.

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 May 02 - 10:46 AM

hesperis, what Gargoyle meant to say is that 'pagens' are those beepers that some people carry. He can't stand them. *G*

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: CapriUni
Date: 05 May 02 - 10:38 AM

After reading through this thread again, I want to ammend my comments above.

It's not prayer that scares me, but sometimes, it's the person offering the prayer that worries me.

When some people say "I'll pray for you" it really means "I'll pray against you" (Or "I'll pray that you become just like me.")

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: Amos
Date: 05 May 02 - 10:27 AM

I don't think Christianity has anything to do with it.

Exerting intention across distance, as a sorta spirychiooal power, is an observable phenomena, despite the large amoutn of variation. Why drag icons into it?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 May 02 - 10:18 AM

Some people are scared of prayer because there is a lot of fear in their spirituality. They are fearful about lots of stuff.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 05 May 02 - 08:31 AM

Kendal...

I never met Yin, but I dated Yang's sister for a while... He and the members of his Triad threatened to give me holes I didn't need, so I let it slide...

Don't be offended... Especially when it comes to something as ephemeral as spirituality, I call ALL beliefs 'clap-trap'...

But if it gets ya through the day eh...

It's all a matter of what clap trap ya wanna buy into...

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 05 May 02 - 08:22 AM

I'm reminded of the phrase "You just don't get it!"

When I say that to my husband, it's an expression of my frustration...what I'm feeling.

What he hears is, "You're stupid!"

Too often people interpret another's words as an assault on them; they are being defensive, when actually it's just a way of expressing feelings from a different perspective.

I don't say, "You just don't get it," anymore...but I feel that communication is lost.

When I read words on Mudcat, or even have them directed to me here, I consider the source. I've learned a lot about people and appreciate the free and honest exchange of ideas. At this point I could insert certain "troll" words...but won't. They will probably appear anyway. We all communicate with songs better than words...may there is one here.

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: kendall
Date: 05 May 02 - 08:10 AM

CH, you are a piece of work! you probably don't believe in Yin and Yang either? When someone calls my belief system "clap trap" I either smile or get irritated, depending on whether or not I respect their opinion. *BG*

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 05 May 02 - 08:09 AM

I've sometimes had the reverse situation... people who say they are Atheists who have asked me to pray for them. Prayer takes every form from the childish, "Dear Lord, please give me a bicycle for Christmas," to mature petitioning out of love or honest concern. There are people I pray for who I never tell because I think they would be uncomfortable about it. There are people who I know are Atheists or Agnostics who I know well enough to sense that they will appreciate that I am praying for them, not because they necessarily have some small uncertainty in their minds about whether or not God exists but because they know that I care about them and am concerned for them. I think the worst thing is when someone who you know by their actions is not a loving, thoughtful, giving person says that they're going to pray for you. Then it's just words, and you find their insincerity offensive. And want to get away from them before they draw you further into conversation. Not everyone who offers to lift up prayers has an honest spiritual life. As in everything else, you have to weigh people's words by the way they live their life. Hypocrisy isn't limited to Christians. People who say, "I'll be thinking about you," or "I really wish you well," may be no more sincere than some people who say they will pray for you who don't have a close personal relationship with God.

I guess part of what all of this boils down to is, if I don't find the fact that some of my closest friends are Atheists, why should people be bothered if I'm a Christian? I'm not trying to impose my beliefs on others. Atheism is a belief system, too. The closest friend I've had in my life is an Atheist, and we've both been very open about our beliefs. If something as important as faith is off-limits in a friendship, it can't be worth all that much.

I don't see Mudcat becoming a Christian community. I don't desire it to become a Christian community. I think that "pagens" should be welcome here, too. And respected as long as they aren't attacking others. Judge people by how they live.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 05 May 02 - 07:49 AM

Ya... I kinda see prayer as a waste of time and energy, so RichM is right... "it's irrelevant"... Kinda like this 'positive energy' clap-trap... it's all just wishing... and as my grandfather used to say, "You can wish in one hand and crap in the other and see which one piles up first."

If I ask for help and you wanna do something to help me, then DO something to help me...

Was it George Carlin who said in one of his more recent shows, that he no longer worships 'God'... he worships the sun... but he prays to Joe Pesci...

And his prayers are being favourably answered in about the same ratio as when he prayed to 'God'...

And it's easy to believe in the existance of Joe Pesci...

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: RichM
Date: 05 May 02 - 05:59 AM

Some illustrative examples here of why prayer "scares" people.

Relax.
It won't hurt you. Translate that as "it's irrelevant", if you prefer.

Rich McCarthy

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: Hrothgar
Date: 05 May 02 - 05:53 AM

Let's pray for a spellchecker.

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: Lanfranc
Date: 05 May 02 - 04:19 AM

Poor old Gargoyle, you can do almost anything with HTML, but a spellcheck is beyond you!

Isle prey four ewe

Alan

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: Terry K
Date: 05 May 02 - 03:19 AM

I just find it pathetic that otherwise intelligent people can believe that their particular brand of mumbo jumbo can have any effect on another person. On oneself, yes - the power of positive thought etc etc. And yes, I know, many people will have examples that prove conclusively that prayer works blah blah blah. But if any medicine man, witch doctor, priest, "good Christian" wanted to practise their mumbo jumbo on my behalf, I'd probably be mildly amused even, if I did find it somewhat intrusive.

And Little Hawk, please first try to distinguish between atheism and anti-theism if you want to make any sense at all.

Cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: Les B
Date: 05 May 02 - 01:40 AM

To me it is mildly offensive because it implies there's something wrong with me. (Depending on who says it, of course)

It would be like hearing "I'll get you legal help," or "I can get you finanicial aid," or "I'll get you psychiatric counseling".

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: Lyrical Lady
Date: 05 May 02 - 12:54 AM

Prayer does not scare me ... in fact... Rangeroger prays for me and you know what!!!?...it works and it makes me feel good that there is someone out there who believes in a greater power and also believes in me!

Thanks rr!

LL

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: Amos
Date: 05 May 02 - 12:46 AM

Some people flinch at the notion of non-local reach, which is inherent in any cosmology which admits prayer no matter what icons it uses.

Prayer is demonstrably effective (Dossey, "Healing Words", 1995) and is demonstrably non-local (Ibid; cf Pribam) , but to confront that requires that one consider the strange notion there is a scope to every inddividual which extends far, far beyond the safe, comfortable retreat of the body's edges and the brain's warm electronics.

This contemplation can be extremely unsettling to those who have retreated within those boundaries for the sake of predictable, safe and reliable concealment. For one thing it means returning to face the considerable forces and confusions which led to retreat in the first place; for another it means "showing" oneself in non-physical ways of being, which is intolerable to those habituated to solid forms of existence for their credibility.

Regards,

A.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: hesperis
Date: 05 May 02 - 12:35 AM

Who are the "PAGENS"? *Puzzled look*

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 04 May 02 - 11:59 PM

I have been praying

...............................for the past four years I have been praying.........

For a revival within the MUDCAT

AND YOU KNOW WHAT???You Know What ???YOU KNOW WHAT ???YOU KNOW WHAT???

The PAGENS have left

but the "infested varment critters have remained!!!

So...you know what? You Know What? ,,,You KNOW WHAT???????

I continue to pray for the continued purging of the MudCat and its return to its former glory.....

And You Know What?????? With enough prayer and contributions to DICK GREENHOUSE IT WILL BE DONE!!!

Sincerely
Gargoyle