BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 May 02 - 11:42 AM

Amos,

sometimes I wonder if my main problem is with your language. When I read your Prayer is demonstrably effective I sit there and wonder whether you do not know that that is a minority position and whether you just are uninformed about opinions to the contrary or whether you are informed but choose not to tell us.

I have read a lot about that field (from both sides) and have come to a different conclusion so far (see this post for instance) but I never would state bluntly 'Prayer has been shown to be ineffective'. I would say for instance 'has not been demonstrated yet convincingly in controlled experiments' or 'the experiments so far have failed to convince critics' or words to similar effects. And I usually try to inform that there are other opinions.

You read a lot and are a very clever man so you must know the difference between data and interpretation. So you also must know that the data on this field so far can be interpreted by assuming that prayer works but that other interpretations are also possible and have been made by others. I do not mind at all that you come to a different evaluation of the evidence than I do but your very wording makes it clear that you do not present an informed opinion or evaluation. You state what a minority opinion is as if it was a fact beyond doubt. This is not the first time I see this, but it puzzles me every time anew.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 May 02 - 12:27 PM

I maybe should clarify that I feel annoyed if more or less strangers say "I'll pray for you" to me. That's how I understood Dan in the first post, but that understanding might have been too narrow. If close friends say that my feelings are different for I know them much better and can understand how they mean it.

It seems to be very difficult to understand that we look at the same world, the same stars (more or less) and all that and yet come to completely different conclusions about it. But that's how it is and most of us are so old that the basic view of the world won't change by arguments. Therefore any request of the type 'show me", "prove me", "explain me" is completely futile. Let us have more tolerance for those whose world view we do not share. And that includes the knowledge that the own world view could be wrong and that the respective other is not an idiot who closes her mind to obvious and evident truths.

Terry, I have overlooked that possibility. I better should have let that post alone and concentrated on the other posts that are much more tolerant.

Rich, if you have meant among others me with Rationally, you should just ignore it. After all, your emotional response affects only you. I won't let that stand uncommented. You don't know me good enough to be able to say that. How I come to conclusions in my world view and under which circumstances I have which emotions or not is a very private thing I do not like to be taught about by someone who has close to no knowledge of my world view. Would you e.g. like a Non-Christian to tell you in one situation 'now you should turn the other cheek' shouldn't you?

Let's make a deal, Rich: I won't try to teach you how to be a good Christian and you stop telling me when my world view should lead me in your opinion to something else than I post here.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 08 May 02 - 01:20 PM

It doesn't make me uncomfortable. I'm always a little taken aback when I congratulate someone for something he or she achieved, or some positive thing that happened, and they say "Praise Jesus!" But I figure that's my problem not theirs.

Now if I tell a friend I have a problem, and they say "I'll sacrifice a virgin to Neptune for you", that's where I draw the line.

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: sophocleese
Date: 08 May 02 - 03:59 PM

What, Lonesome EJ, you have problems with Neptune?

Wolfgang, I like your posts. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 08 May 02 - 04:03 PM

Well, sophocleese, he's no Zeus.

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 08 May 02 - 04:22 PM

Hi, Wolfgang: Well-measured, thoughtful posts that leave room for diametrically opposed views without belittling anyone. You're my man, Wolfgang... And you are right, of course. It is futile to try to prove God's existence, or lack thereof. That's why they call it faith. If someone could prove that God exists, but you felt nothing in your heart, what would be the point? The sun also rises. For many people who DO believe that God exists, it has very little impact on their life. It's not something they even think about. That's why the polls that say that 78% of Americans believe in God don't really mean much. If it doesn't transform your life in a positive way, then it's just a little fact tucked away in the corner of your mind.

I think that it's very humorous, by the way, that this thread has treatened to spin off into "what is an Atheist." I realize that communication breaks down when a word means different things to different people. The Atheists and Agnostics that I know seem to have a pretty clear idea what the words mean. Friends of mine who are Atheist think that God doesn't exist. Agnostics don't believe that God exists, but they admit the possibility. Some shift back and forth between the two beliefs from time to time. My best friend most of my life has mostly been an Agnostic, occasionally seeming to lean toward Atheism. I have a son who is an Agnostic, who was a strong believer as a kid. I love 'em both, and they are both fine people.

You're also right, Wolfgang. Faith is a very private matter, and no one knows another person's heart. That's why it's best to enjoy people for who they are and how they live, and be thankful that something in them leads them to try to live a good life.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 08 May 02 - 04:30 PM

Amos and Wolfgang discussed the "effectiveness" of prayer.

This comes down (as almost all religious-related discussion does) to definitions.

"Effectiveness" in doing what? If one claims that praying for rain is demonstrated to be effective, I'll have to respectfully disagree. If someone says that praying for patience and the ability to tolerate fools is effective, it may well be true for that speaker.

Now we have to draw the distinction between prayer-as-petition ("God, please have somebody give me a Porsche 911 for my birthday"), or even (more realistically), "God, please let my child get well", and that kind of prayer (and I can't think of a name for it) which focuses on the praying person's own intangible inward being (ability to tolerate fools), and then the praise and glorification prayer, which may serve some of the same this-world purposes as that second type I mentioned.

The clergyman's-wife mother of my boyhood best friend once said that "God answers all your prayers. But 'No' is just as valid an answer as 'yes'."

I'm convinced there is no more way to PROVE the effectiveness of any of these types of prayer than there is to PROVE the existence or non-existence of God (or a god). Believe what you will, but realize that it just can't be proved.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: Deda
Date: 08 May 02 - 04:55 PM

Little Hawk -- I think I've come to a very similar religious understanding of things to yours and I enjoyed reading your explanation.

Sharon A -- I was really sorry to read about the religious abuse that you went through at the hands of your parents. It sounded nasty, and I'm sorry that the stress and pressure has cast such a long shadow in your life. I think any kind of proselytizing or pressuring others to accept one's own version of the "truth" is a sure sign of a bad belief system, one that is trying to cover up its own internal failings and weaknesses. It's a form of bullying, and bullies are always weak, flawed, unhappy, usually scared people, imo.

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: SharonA
Date: 08 May 02 - 06:08 PM

Thanks, Deda. I'm not sure that I should have shared that experience in such detail (even so, I only skimmed the surface!), but the question that opened this thread was compelling. Others have expressed various levels of discomfort at hearing people tell them they're being prayed for, and I wanted to point out that in some cases that discomfort can reach the level of gut-wrenching fear. It's hard when the "bullies" are people you love, people you're supposed to honor and respect.

I'm sorry if anyone on this thread feels that I was belittling them personally. I have a looooooot of anger about this subject, and sometimes I suppress that anger better than at other times! Still, as WVPreacher said, communication is preferable to the "violence of silence", so please understand that I'm trying to make the healthier choice of communicating. If I cross the line into unhealthy communication, let me know, but please try not to smack me back into silence! Thanks.

Sharon

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?
From: SharonA
Date: 08 May 02 - 06:22 PM

This thread has over 100 posts, so it's time for the sequel: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?Part2 (thread ID 47416) CLICK HERE

Please do not post any further comments to this thread (as it is difficult or impossible for some computers to open long threads at all), but post to the "Part2" thread instead. Thanks!