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BS: Great British Pubs
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Subject: Great British Pubs From: Lonesome EJ Date: 05 May 02 - 03:27 PM I posted the following to the "Town Names" thread, and I thought the subject of unique and distinctive British pubs might be an interesting topic. "I enjoyed the ancient pub The Trip to Jerusalem at Nottingham. For those who don't know it, it is a small, low-ceilinged cluster of rooms built more or less into the hill that is crowned with Nottingham Castle. The story says its the oldest pub in England (of course, there are at least a hundred claiming that distinction), and that it was a popular gathering spot for those ready to depart on a Crusade. It certainly has a bit of a creepy and claustrophobic feel to it, and one might not be surprised to see the shadowy figure of a hooded knight in a dark corner." I find the pubs in Great Britain fascinating. Sure, you Brits have your share of Chain-style Pubs, but there are still a myriad of peculiar and fascinating locals. You are lucky to have them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Great British Pubs From: jimlad Date: 05 May 02 - 03:52 PM You are right there mate we do have some great pubs in england, In my town Bolton in Lancashire we have "The Olde Man and Scythe".This pub claims to be the 4th oldest pub in England having been in business since at least AD1236 when it was re-built,one of it's claim to fame is that the 5th Earl of Derby spent his last hours therin prior to his execution outside of the pub in AD1651.He was executed for leading 3 attacks on our fair town during our "revolution".I think he deserved everything he got for in my opinion being on the wrong side.We are still a Republican town. Incidentally the Man and Scthe has a interesting website at www.manandsycthe.com. We also have a pub called the "Sweet Green" wich dates back to the late 1700s.It' a bit rough at times,once I attempted to complain about the beer being "cloudy",only tobe told it was'nt cloudy but the glass being filthy,it's that kind of pub!. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Great British Pubs From: Morticia Date: 05 May 02 - 04:02 PM We used to have a pub called The Royal Exchange and reputedly it was at this spot that Henry V111 met with Anne Boleyns family to exchange dowry and bride.Despite this interesting bit of local history they were still allowed to rename the pub to something totally modern and uninteresting . I find it irksome to say the least. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Great British Pubs From: Nigel Parsons Date: 05 May 02 - 04:17 PM It is interesting to see pubs described (Like the Old Man and Scythe) as the 4th oldest in England. This parochial attitude is always taken by the aggressors (the English), The quoted history for The Old Man... says it dates back to "at least 1236" Wales' oldest inn, "The Skirrid" is recorded back to 1110. Fifty years after the Norman conquest, two men stood trial before a court assembled in the main room of a new alehouse on a dusty road below the Skirrid mountain. The alehouse was then called 'Millbrook'. One of the men (brothers) was hanged from a beam of the inn for sheep stealing. Claims for "The Trip To Jerusalem" date it to 1070 The Fighting Cocks at St Albans is said to be 11th century, on an 8th century site. The Bingley Arms, at Bardsey (near Leeds) is said to be the inn recorded as the 'Priests Inn' (AD 905) And "Ye Olde Ferry Boat Inn" at Holywell, Cambridgeshire has a claim dating back to the 6th century. I would be very interested in further details on these and others! Nigel
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Subject: RE: BS: Great British Pubs From: wysiwyg Date: 05 May 02 - 04:19 PM Pubs WITH sessions preferred! ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Great British Pubs From: Nigel Parsons Date: 05 May 02 - 04:23 PM WYSIWYG: all the pubs I use have sessions! Oh you means music sessions! Apart from the"Drinking sessions" that I mean, the Skirrid Inn held "Sessions" from 1100 to 1485; Manorial courts, Church courts, Assize courts, & Skenfrith Petty Sessions! Nigel |
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Subject: RE: BS: Great British Pubs From: Terry K Date: 05 May 02 - 04:32 PM Nigel, the Fighting Cocks at St Albans naturally claims to be the oldest pub in England (!) and has remained popular. I haven't been in for years as it still has the reputation of being full of kids learning how to smoke and drink. Cheers, Terry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Great British Pubs From: bradfordian Date: 05 May 02 - 04:34 PM I work right beside "Ye Olde Trip To Jerusalem". If anyone is dropping by that way, send me a PM & if you hang around long enough I could probably find a music session for you to sample. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Great British Pubs From: Peg Date: 05 May 02 - 06:34 PM The Haunch of Venison in Salisbury!
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Subject: RE: BS: Great British Pubs From: Gareth Date: 05 May 02 - 06:40 PM Ohhh ! So many Pubs, and so little time. But try the "Ship Aground" at Hollow Shore Nr Faversham. Or the Gate Inn, at Marshside in the wilds between Canterbury and the Isle of Thanet. Gaeth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Great British Pubs From: GUEST,Skipjack K8 Date: 05 May 02 - 08:05 PM I agree about Hollowshore, Gareth. The Jolly Sailor in Canterbury, when dear old Mrs Pope had it in the early 80's was a time capsule, accidentally unchanged since before Hitler's war. The tap room in the Queens in D'Arcy takes some beating. Skipjack |
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Subject: RE: BS: Great British Pubs From: Lonesome EJ Date: 05 May 02 - 08:30 PM There's a small town near York called Rical, and we visited a small pub there. Unfortunately, I cannot remember the name. But it was of an age preceding Thomas Cromwell, because the legend says, after Henry VIII exiled Cromwell to a position as the Archbishop of York, the King's bad feelings continued to the point where he ordered CRomwell arrest. The Archbishop escaped before the King's men could arrive, and he sought shelter at this pub. Henry's men found him out and arrested him in one of the rooms of what was then a roadside Inn. Several visitors have reported the sudden apparition of a man in a hooded cloak and vestments of the Church, passing by in solemn procession with his captors. It's a great place with good food and several tiny rooms linked at a central point, each with a small fireplace. They've got an interesting display of items that fell behind a mantlepiece over the last 500 years, including keys, coins, jewelry etc. Anyone know it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Great British Pubs From: The Shambles Date: 05 May 02 - 09:50 PM LEJ When are you and yours going to visit again? Let us know and rather than me telling you (and the whole world) about these places, I can show you instead.
Hopefully we may be also able to sing and play in a few of them too.
The Cove House Inn (as recommended in the House of Commons, now has its own resident bottlenose, who allows you to swim with him and tickle his belly. The Little Bear in Evergreen, has its charms too. I saw a few apparitions there too.....Plus all the Harleys outside, tied up to the sidewalk like horses..... LOL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Great British Pubs From: Steve Latimer Date: 05 May 02 - 10:23 PM I toured England & Scotland about 20 years ago with a Canadian (Ice) Hockey team. Officially, we were there to play exhibition games against British Teams, unofficially to tour Pubs. I was in Ye Olde Trip To Jerusalem and found it a pretty neat spot. Another one that I really enjoyed was The Nag's Head, I can't remember the name of the town, but it was pretty close to Billingham. I had one of the the finest steaks I've ever had in my life and a wonderful Onion Soup. It wasn't like the brown French Onion Soup that we are used to here. Interestingly, the owner told us he got the recipe on a trip to Montreal. I wish I could remember the names of some of the others that we were in, but I really enjoyed many. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Great British Pubs From: Jim Dixon Date: 06 May 02 - 12:46 AM Here are some that I've enjoyed. They may not be "great" but I had great times there: The Still and West in Portsmouth. A great view of the harbor. Also the Friary Mews, and the Red, White, and Blue. The Orange Tree in Kirkby Lonsdale. Also the Smutty Fox. The Portland in Hove. The Fountain in Gloucester, near the cathedral. It's an old inn with a central courtyard. The Fiddler's Arms in Edinburgh. The Twa Dogs in ... some town in the Lake District. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Great British Pubs From: GUEST,Crazy Eddie Date: 06 May 02 - 02:55 AM Well, there's this Wetherspoons in Croydon that serves really fizzy lager, and..... I'll get me coat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Great British Pubs From: The Shambles Date: 06 May 02 - 03:35 AM HICK! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Great British Pubs From: Peter Kasin Date: 06 May 02 - 03:43 AM "Dr. Brown's" in Stockton, Yorkshire. Nice Sunday night drinking session set to folk music! chanteyranger |
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Subject: RE: BS: Great British Pubs From: C-flat Date: 06 May 02 - 04:13 AM Chanteyranger, you must mean Dr. Browns in MIddlesbrough, I know there isn't a pub of that name in Stockton but as Middlesbrough and Stockton now merge into one-another you wouldn't know if you'd changed towns! I was booked to play at Dr. Browns last Saturday night, it's a great music venue but Sunday night folk is now off the menu! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Great British Pubs From: jimlad Date: 06 May 02 - 05:07 AM With the reference to the English as the "aggressors" I surmise that Nigel is one of that inferior race,the Welsh. Ane Robinson was right!. The Welsh by the way "pray on their knees and on their neighbours" On a more sensible note we have a penchant for giving pubs nicknames:-
The Black Swan = The Dirty Duck. Is there any more out there?. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Great British Pubs From: Bullfrog Jones Date: 06 May 02 - 06:45 AM We've got two world-famous pubs here in Stony Stratford --The Cock and The Bull. In the nursery rhyme Ride a Cock horse to Banbury Cross, the reference is to a horse hired from The Cock Hotel which was a famous coaching house, and Stony the last stop before London (or the first stop out of London).The horses were changed or rested and the passengers would stay overnight at The Cock or the hotel next door, The Bull, where they would pass the time telling stories. Over the course of a drunken night the stories would become more and more embellished and pass backwards and forwards between the two establishments, creating a new genre in storytelling --- the Cock and Bull story! Both pubs are still here today, The Cock being home to the Songloft Folk Club on alternate Fridays and The Bull hosting an excellent Sunday lunchtime session in The Vaults Bar, where you will often find me and The One And Only Dai (or Dai Trying as we know him) continuing the fine traditions of the hostelries (i.e.getting drunk and talking bull). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Great British Pubs From: Nigel Parsons Date: 06 May 02 - 07:18 AM jimlad: nice short quote about the Welsh. Shame you stopped there. The Scots pray on their knees on Sunday and on their neighbours the rest of the week. The Welsh keep the sabbath and anything else they can get their hands on. The Irish don't know what they believe in but will fight to the death for it. The English claim to be self made men which relieves the Almighty of a horrid responsibility. As you will see, the full quote says little in favour of the English either. The other, oft quoted, line about the Welsh is also better seen in full! "Taffy was a Welshman, Taffy was a thief, Taffy came to my house, and stole a lump of beef! I went to Taffy's house, Taffy was in bed, So I picked up a chopper, and chopped off his head!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Great British Pubs From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 06 May 02 - 08:04 AM The White Horse in Hertford stands just outside the moat of the castle. A genuinely ancient building, all low beams. 2 bars downstairs and 3 upstairs rooms full of sofas and armchairs and rickety old tables.Real ales with interesting guest beers. best of all , 2 separate folk sessions, every Monday eve and every 3rd Sun afternoon. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Great British Pubs From: GUEST,aldus Date: 06 May 02 - 08:52 AM The Square and Compass in Dorset, near Corfe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Great British Pubs From: Lonesome EJ Date: 06 May 02 - 01:48 PM aldus, is that the pub that has a beer garden in back with a view up to the castle? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Great British Pubs From: GUEST,aldus Date: 06 May 02 - 02:29 PM The very same..I believe it is actually in Worth..it is spectacualr on a night with a full moon when you can see the out line of Corfe Castle. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Great British Pubs From: selby Date: 06 May 02 - 02:49 PM Although I havn't been near the pup in riccall for years I think it must be the Hare & Hounds. Keith |
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Subject: RE: BS: Great British Pubs From: DougR Date: 06 May 02 - 07:44 PM Interesting thread! I've really enjoyed reading it, and hope someday to visit some of these places. Thread creep: what are examples of typical pub food served in these establishments? DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Great British Pubs From: Lonesome EJ Date: 06 May 02 - 08:32 PM Doug, despite all the bad things you hear about English Cuisine, pub food is great. The Ploughman's Lunch is always good. It is usually composed of a chunk of Cheddar, a fresh apple, bread, some liver pate or other meat, pickled onions, and something the Brits call "pickle", which is like a tart fruit chutney. Usually fish and chips is on the menu, and after several hundred years of practice, the English have gotten it down to a science. It's almost always good. Yorkshire Pudding is another favorite of mine. It's like a big beef pot pie with a light, flaky crust. But here's a warning : Avoid the sandwiches. A "Gammon Sandwich" (ham sandwich) is usually composed of two slices of white bread(always buttered) and a slice of ham so thin you can see through it. No able-bodied American could possibly eat one of these and feel in the least satisfied. Instead, go for the pasties. The closer to Cornwall you get, the bigger and better are the pasties. They are like a big, crusty meat pie with potatoes and other good stuff. Sausage Rolls are also great, sort of like "pigs in a blanket", but using the very tasty English Sausage instead. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Great British Pubs From: Sarah the flute Date: 07 May 02 - 03:40 AM Hmmm Why have I been to most of the pubs that have been mentioned Hic! Hic! Used to go to one near Nottingham years ago - The priest house? it was near a lake in the middle of nowhere - does that still exist? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Great British Pubs From: AliUK Date: 07 May 02 - 10:06 AM The Chesire Cheese in Fleet Street is an excellent pub and maze of rooms with low slung ceilings in the original ( after it was rebuilt in the sixteenth century) wood. Lovely atmosphere and on eof the cheapest pints in London ( 1.40 when I was there last year). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Great British Pubs From: Jon Freeman Date: 07 May 02 - 10:40 AM here's an article on the ploughmans lunch. For food, I'm quite happy with my local in Norfolk. The landlord is Irish and the landlady from Thailand. You can get a good roast dinner (usually pork, beef, lamb and chicken on offer) with lots of locally produced vegatables, or other "traditional English" meals or venture into the oriental stuff... If I was to name my favourite pub, it would probably be the Cross Keys, Penhrynside, Wales. Nothing special about it - just a straight locals pub in a village. Why my favourite? Just a great crowd of locals (who are all 1/2 mad ;-)) and the previous and current landlords were excellent. It's been the sort of pub where I have popped in once in a while with the banjo and we've had a sing song, a pub where after late night, I agreed to have my hair cut by a "non-hairdresser" for charity (and I had to pay to get it cut after...), a pub where the tv is used sparingly, e.g. for a football match but a pub where rival supporters make fun of each other in a freindly manner (and when you support Norwich, just about everyone makes fun of you), etc. Who needs stereotyed "English pubs"? Give me a pub with character that can only come from the people and landlord anyday... Jon |
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Subject: RE: BS: Great British Pubs From: Wilfried Schaum Date: 07 May 02 - 11:42 AM URL for Ye Olde Man and Scythe is: http://www.manandscythe.co.uk/ Worth to be visited. Wilfried |
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Subject: RE: BS: Great British Pubs From: Grab Date: 07 May 02 - 12:08 PM Check out the Three Stags Heads in the Peak District, about half an hour from Sheffield. Usually a good session in there on Saturday night, plus some superb beer. A "no-pretensions" pub - by the end of the night, you want a pint, you pour it yourself and put the money in the till! Very small, but superb atmosphere, especially on a good evening. And _very_ good food and beer. It's a popular pub with walkers and climbers, and is something of a second home for the Loughborough climbing club (where I found out about it) and often other climbing clubs as well (Sheffield are often there). There's a basic campsite behind the pub, or there's the infamous "pig-loft" (a small straw-filled barn which accomodates about a dozen dead-drunk cheapskate students :-) or there's also a B&B nearby.
One reference... Graham.
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Subject: RE: BS: Great British Pubs From: Jon Freeman Date: 07 May 02 - 12:21 PM Three Stags Head in Wardlow... not been there in a while. We sometimes used to stop there for a pint when travelling between N Wales and Sheffield. I did once try it on a music night but we couldn't get into the room with the music - too full - and ended up going elsewhere. I believe the music is good though... Jon |
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Subject: RE: BS: Great British Pubs From: Jim Dixon Date: 07 May 02 - 12:40 PM Despite the fact that the "ploughman's lunch" isn't really very old, I have frequently enjoyed them, along with lots of other "pub grub." Eating in a pub is nearly always much cheaper than eating in anything called a "restaurant" in England. Other alternatives, if you don't need beer, are a fish and chips shop or a "cafe" (pronounced "caff"). In summer, many pubs have lovely "gardens" (patios), often with lots of hanging baskets of flowers. What's annoying are the so-called "family rooms" which you're forced to use if you have kids with you and the garden isn't open due to bad weather. (The good news is, the law is seldom enforced outside London and some other cities, and may be growing more lax everywhere. Country pubs usually allow you to bring your kids into the room where the bar is.) Often a "family room" is just a dingy little room with no decoration and no windows, if they have one at all. There is one quaint tradition that is dying out, and that is having pubs split into two rooms: the "public bar" in front, which used to be for men only, where men could wear their work clothes, where the room was plainly furnished and the beer was a little cheaper—and the "saloon" or "lounge bar" in the rear, with a separate entrance, where the decoration was a little fancier (like a Victorian parlor), the seats were upholstered, women were allowed, men were expected to dress up a bit, and the drinks were a bit more expensive. The modern trend is to knock down the wall between the rooms, or if that is impractical for structural reasons, to treat the two rooms alike. For social reasons, I approve of the change, but for historical reasons, it's fun to see the old ones anyway. But they're getting hard to find. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Great British Pubs From: Ringer Date: 07 May 02 - 01:04 PM Could your "priest house" near Nottingham, Sarah the Flute, be The Priory? Somewhere near the University, as I recall? My take on pubs: |
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Subject: RE: BS: Great British Pubs From: DougR Date: 07 May 02 - 01:14 PM LEJ, Jon, thanks. Lee, I'll steer clear of the sandwiches and go for the pasties. No jukeboxes? I wish that practice would sweep across the Atlantic. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Great British Pubs From: brid widder Date: 07 May 02 - 01:30 PM The White Horse in Beverley...popularly and just about exclusively known as 'Nellies'gas lights...or candles...coal fires, lots of tiny rooms & nooks and crannies flagstone floors and Sam Smith's Beer....bitter at £1.24 a pint. a folk club and jazz club meet there weekly and on the first sunday in the month there's a super afternoon session...well it starts in the afternoon!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Great British Pubs From: Lonesome EJ Date: 07 May 02 - 02:42 PM One of the worst experiences I had in a pub was in Ayre, Scotland. It looked like a fine old pub from the outside, built right by the seashore, but when you opened the door you were immediately slammed by blaring sound from a jukebox turned up to maximum. The place was so thick with cigarette smoke you couldn't see across the room. Although the clientele was predominantly teenagers and young adults engaged in shouted conversation or banging on electronic game machines, there was a contingent of families and elderly folks sitting at the tables eating and drinking, and seemingly ignoring the noxious madness around them. Goes to show that Pubs can be every bit as bad as the worst American Dive. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Great British Pubs From: GUEST,Desdemona at work Date: 07 May 02 - 02:46 PM Oh, my---you're singing my song! Ye Olde Trip to Jerusalem, obviously, and The Haunch of Venison in Salisbury, the fabulous Lamb & Flag near Covent Garden, The George on Bankside, The Queen's Head in Sheep Street, Stratford upon Avon, The Wagon & Horses in Knowle......oh, so many. I feel a powerful thirst coming upon me now, in fact! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Great British Pubs From: Mountain Dog Date: 07 May 02 - 03:02 PM If in Cornwall, stop in for a pint at the Pandora Inn in Restronguet (our local when we lived there). No sessions, but a lovely waterside pub dating to the 15th Century (alledgedly) and properly thatched on top. Closer to Truro on the road to Playing Place is "The Punchbowl and Ladle" which had sessions when we lived nearby some years ago. Worth looking into if you're in the neighborhood. And by the way, Shambles, were the apparitions you referred to at the Little Bear in Evergreen (Colorado) those depending from the ceiling, multi-hued and ranging in size from 32AA to 48DD? Casts a whole new meaning on "being in one's cups", doesn't it? We've seen many a fine concert there (though folk and trad music are less common than blues and R&R) And as for the prodigious line of Harleys parked out front, have you ever seen a drunk stagger out and inadvertently start a game of "Harley dominoes"? Guaranteed to clear the bar! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Great British Pubs From: Jon Freeman Date: 07 May 02 - 03:04 PM Jim, it is a shame about the walls getting knocked down in pubs but the trend continues... One drawback as far as I'm concerned is for folk clubs and sessions (and perhaps other events). I believe it's much better to have these events in a separate room and allow people the choice of whether to enjoy the music or to enjoy a pint and a chat in the other bar than to try to run one in one big room where the chances are, a number of the locals will have no interest in the music. The landlord of one pub in Llandudno hit on an interesting idea when he decided to open his pub out. He built a partition wall on rails. During the daytime, he operated the pub with a family room. He also used 2 rooms for the folk club and perhaps for other functions. On other nights, he tended to have singers in and the pub used to get quite packed - on those nights he ran the pub as one big room. Jon |
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Subject: RE: BS: Great British Pubs From: DonD Date: 07 May 02 - 03:21 PM On a motoring trip through the West (Devon and Cornwall) back in the 50's as a newlywed, my wife and I were urged not to miss stopping at The Ship in Porlock and/or The Bell in Hurley, but we never found either one of them. Trying to rendezvous with a couple we'd met on the boat coming over to Plymouth, we asked a gent in -- I've drawn a blank on the name of the town -- where a tourist would be likely to be having lunch. Without hesitation he said, "Otsencrusses!" or so we heard it. After several repetitions with as little communication and a growing sense of irritation on his part at our stupidity, we feigned comprehension, thanked him profusely, and drove a little further to see the pub with the sign of what we would call a Tic-Tac-Toe game. Aha! The Aughts and Crosses! No, our friends weeren't there, and I have no recollection of the food or drink. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Great British Pubs From: Jim Dixon Date: 07 May 02 - 04:35 PM Dialect question: I've heard the term "Naughts (or maybe Noughts) and Crosses" but not "Aughts and Crosses." Do naught and aught mean exactly the same thing? Is it a regional dialect thing? Where does it come from? My dad, who grew up on a farm in Kentucky, used the word "aught" (or it might have been "naught"—it's hard to tell the difference between "a naught" and "an aught") where people today would normally say "zero." I've often wondered whether his dialect could be traced to a certain region of England. Any dialect experts out there? If I described his dialect in detail, could you identify it? Calling 'Enry 'Iggins! There's lots of other stuff I could list, like using "chimley" for "chimney" and so on. I assume my ancestry is mostly English, because nearly all my known ancestors had English-sounding names, but no one has ever actually traced them back that far. Please excuse the thread creep. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Great British Pubs From: Lonesome EJ Date: 07 May 02 - 04:51 PM Jim, my Grandfather spoke the same way..."there's seven-aught crows a-sitting on yon Chestnut tree!" He was of Scotch-Irish stock from the Appalachian and PIedmont areas of KY, VA and SC, and it's said that many of the settlers who came there in the 16 and 1700s brought the speech of that era in Britain, and that it is still close to its origins. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Great British Pubs From: 8_Pints Date: 07 May 02 - 06:26 PM An interesting little pub in Helston is the Blue Anchor. I think it is old, but can't remember how old. It serves a splendid variety of 'Spingo' ales of differing strengths - superb! Bob vG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Great British Pubs From: 8_Pints Date: 07 May 02 - 06:27 PM Duplicate post caused by ODBC 40001 failure so retransmitted. Sorry! Please remove. Bob vG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Great British Pubs From: Jim Dixon Date: 07 May 02 - 07:01 PM Several years ago, I saw a documentary on the Discovery Channel (a cable channel in the US) about the Blue Anchor in Helston! They're apparently one of the oldest brew pubs still in existence. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Great British Pubs From: GUEST,Paul Date: 07 May 02 - 07:17 PM My favourite pub in the entire world is the Mason's Arms , in the Lake District. Its a lovely pub in a gorgeous location, it brews its own (very tasty) beer, has various guest ales and stocks 150! different bottled beers from around the world. The food is great too (if a little expensive) The major drawback is that it's in the middle of nowhere, and can only be accessed by car. Guess who has to drive :-( Paul |