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BS: An Argument for the Pillory?
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Subject: An Argument for the Pillory? From: Lonesome EJ Date: 08 May 02 - 04:01 PM I just saw videotape of Helder, the teenaged mailbox pipe-bomber, being escorted from the police car to headquarters, a big grin on his face as he delights in his newfound fame. Here is someone who felt it necessary to maim and blind innocent people, and justified his actions with a nebulous note regarding the evils of conformity, corporations, and the government. He has admitted the crimes, will be tried and confined to prison, probably for life. I suggest that he could provide a service to all vacuous, homicidally inclined individuals and their potential victims by doing a short penance in the Pillory prior to his imprisonment. You know the Pillory...it's the wooden stocks that allowed criminals to be confined and exhibited in public with only their hands, head, and feet exposed back in "unenlightened" times. It was designed not simply for punishment, but for humiliation. My guess is that nothing would take the blush off of this jackass's fame like a little public humiliation. LEJ (medieval at heart) |
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Subject: RE: BS: An Argument for the Pillory? From: Sorcha Date: 08 May 02 - 04:04 PM I'm that medieval too, LEJ. I really think it would do wonders for some of the "minor stuff" that cops have to deal with, but this kid is probably beyond that. I really don't think he has any idea just how much trouble he is in.............. |
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Subject: RE: BS: An Argument for the Pillory? From: catspaw49 Date: 08 May 02 - 04:21 PM I'd add in a genital opening so folks could walk past and kick his balls too. I think I saw the same clip you did Leej....... Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: An Argument for the Pillory? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 08 May 02 - 04:44 PM The Taliban went in for that kind of stuff. |
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Subject: RE: BS: An Argument for the Pillory? From: GUEST,BS Date: 08 May 02 - 04:50 PM Two little shits approx. 15/16 years old smashed up the phone box next to my house yesterday, why should I worry, I have a phone & two mobiles, I called the police (not Sting's lot) and we toured the village looking for them, to no avail. What if they where caught though? They would probably stand there smirking and threatening to sue the police! Perhaps a few hours in the stocks would change their attitude. However we are too civilised now to behave like this! Yeh, right! |
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Subject: RE: BS: An Argument for the Pillory? From: Lonesome EJ Date: 08 May 02 - 08:35 PM Three years ago, my rural neighborhood went through an epidemic of mailbox smashing. As soon as a homewoner would put up a new box to replace one, it would be smashed with a baseball bat. One older gentleman took a 6-inch-diameter metal pipe, sunk it two feet in the ground, and filled it with concrete. He then cut a six inch circular hole in the bottom of his mailbox and dropped it down on top of the pipe. He figured this would defeat the box-smashers. That night, a car cruised by, a teenager leaned out, swung a bat, and broke his arm at the elbow. The kid's parents sued the homeowner and won a cash settlement. Another argument for the pillory...for the kid AND the Judge. |
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Subject: RE: BS: An Argument for the Pillory? From: katlaughing Date: 08 May 02 - 08:52 PM Less publicity for the miserable little gits would be helpful, too, imo. They don't deserve any of the "limelight" the news crews and general populace now feed on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: An Argument for the Pillory? From: Amos Date: 08 May 02 - 09:16 PM Lej: Your story of the rewarding of criminals by process of law just sends shivers down my spine. The man built a mailbox, and he had to pay someone for trying to destroy his property!! I am incensed when I hear such tales; the grotesque irreposibility is bad enough, but blessing it under American law is enough to turn my stomach sometimes. As to the pillory, I think it would be knocked down as cruel and unusual punishment under the Consittution, or something like that, if anyone tried to float the idea at the State or Federal. 'Course you could argue that making it anact of law thereby establishes it as "usual". Maybe we should go for the Iron Maiden or the Procrustean bed, and then just _settle_ for stocks, A |
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Subject: RE: BS: An Argument for the Pillory? From: pict Date: 08 May 02 - 09:44 PM I knew a guy in Glasgow who had spent a lot of money customising his motorbike the final touch was a fancy paint job.The same night he got the newly painted bike back two 15 year old boys poured a full tin of white gloss paint over it,the man complained to the father of the leader and was told to eff off and he knew the police wouldn't do much about it so he grabbed the main culprit a few days later and tied him up in a sack,put him in his cellar and gave him a severe beating with a baseball bat.There was a minor war over it with several severe injuries dished out,but no police were ever called and I'll bet that that boy thought long and hard about ever doing that sort of thing again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: An Argument for the Pillory? From: Celtic Soul Date: 08 May 02 - 10:31 PM Well said, Kat! Hear, hear! It's sickening when they get what they want...the price being that they had to kill or injur others for their 15 minutes of fame. |
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Subject: RE: BS: An Argument for the Pillory? From: Mountain Dog Date: 08 May 02 - 10:44 PM Hmm, makes me think that a session of "stocks and bonds" (of a distinctly non-fiduciary sort) might do Kenny Lay and some of his cronies in the Enron crowd a world of good, too! |
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Subject: RE: BS: An Argument for the Pillory? From: Banjer Date: 09 May 02 - 05:49 AM Let's face it, the only "rights" left are those of the criminals. Those of us that watch our step so as to obey the letter of the law get shit on. If you want to excercise your rights, go and do something illegal, then you will have all the protection of the law. Before some pompous twit points out to me how I still have the 'freedom of speech and expression' and I have proved it by writing this let me point out if some self serving prosecuter type saw this they COULD charge me with inciting to do wrong by urging others to go out and do someting illegal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: An Argument for the Pillory? From: wysiwyg Date: 09 May 02 - 06:31 AM I don't think the pipe bombs equate to vandalism, though. Haven't seen a vandalism manifesto. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: An Argument for the Pillory? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 May 02 - 06:33 AM Yup, it seems there's a lot of support for the Taliban approach to these things. The paramilitaries in Belfast have similar techniques.
There are rational ways of dealing with these things which don't involve these fantasies about bloody vengeance that in the real world are only too likely to turn from fantasy into reality.
Just before Christmas I left my car parked in a place not overlooked by houses while I was at a song circle, and when I got back its panels had been kicked in so that the insurance company wrote it off as beyond economic repair. What I would have wanted would have been for the people involved to have been caught, and themselves made to pay for the cost in full plus a significant sum for the inconvenience caused. Themselves, not their parents, who would probably have been quite comfortably off, given the area this happened in. Having them knocked about or publicly humiliated wouldn't have done the least bit to satisfy me, and would almost certainly have been made things worse for the future. Violent people are in my experience almost always people who have been treated violently themselves.
Lonesome EJ's story about the old man's mailbox. I was wondering if it was stillany use as a mailbox if it had a six-inch metal post running up the middle. Maybe the court decided that it didn't count as a mailbox anymore, but a trap of some kind, and therefore contravening the laws against setting man traps - which used to be quite a common practice among landowners trying to deal with poachers.
I noticed we don't have Woody Guthrie's Vigilante Man in thge DT (maybe it's been a victim of the copyright police). Anyway, here's a link to the words (and some other good stuff about Woody)And here are a few lines, because that's what we've been talking about:
Well, what is a vigilante man?
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Subject: RE: BS: An Argument for the Pillory? From: Lonesome EJ Date: 09 May 02 - 12:08 PM McGrath, who's talking about bloody vengeance but you? As far as I know, only mild discomfort is involved in a session in the pillory. I'm sure it would be embarrassing as hell. But a padded seat and warm clothing could be provided, as well as frequent bathroom breaks. I think CNN and MS-NBC would also be provided with plenty of photo opportunities. All in all, I think most people would choose that kind of punishment in preference to having a pipe-bomb explode in their faces. I think you are right, McG, about the court's assessment. It was determined that the mailbox design was intended not only to reinforce its strength, but to enable the mailbox-basher to injure himself, thereby dissuading the aforesaid basher from continuing his activity. It was seen that the health of innocent vandals should not be threatened by over-sturdy mailbox design. |
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Subject: RE: BS: An Argument for the Pillory? From: Ebbie Date: 09 May 02 - 12:48 PM LEJ, that mailbox case does sound mightily like an urban myth - or something someone wishes they had done, and someone else pops up with "And they'd probably get you for that." Any more information? |
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Subject: RE: BS: An Argument for the Pillory? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 May 02 - 12:51 PM "Who's talking about bloody vengeance but you?"
How about this: "He knew the police wouldn't do much about it so he grabbed the main culprit a few days later and tied him up in a sack,put him in his cellar and gave him a severe beating with a baseball bat.There was a minor war over it with several severe injuries dished out,but no police were ever called and I'll bet that that boy thought long and hard about ever doing that sort of thing again."
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Subject: RE: BS: An Argument for the Pillory? From: Naemanson Date: 09 May 02 - 01:21 PM Eye for an eye? How long before we are all blind? |
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Subject: RE: BS: An Argument for the Pillory? From: Lonesome EJ Date: 09 May 02 - 01:27 PM Ok, M. You and whoever said that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: An Argument for the Pillory? From: GUEST Date: 09 May 02 - 01:31 PM To be technical (and dispossess the vengeful vigilante types among you of as much of your wind as I possibly can), it is important to note that an *alleged* suspect has been apprehended in the inter-state mailbox bombing case, and indicted. This man is still innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Not that any of that seems to matter to the majority of this lot. McGrath is right. Only the enemies of democracy carry on like the majority of folks in this thread. BTW, I agree on the suggestion of the urban myth regarding Lonesome EJ's mailbox story too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: An Argument for the Pillory? From: GUEST Date: 09 May 02 - 01:56 PM PIPE BOMBER ARRESTED, NATION'S MAILBOXES SAFE FOR BASHING AGAIN High School Football Players Across Midwest Ready to Return to Action Reno, Nev. (SatireWire.com) — The nation's high school football players rejoiced today as the arrest of a suspect in a string of pipe bombings from Illinois to Texas has made America's mailboxes safe for bashing once again. "Whooooo!" said 17-year-old Mike Bedlecki of Dubuque, Iowa, one of thousands of young males who were afraid to take a swing at rural mailboxes during the bomb scare. "Tonight, 10 o'clock, the parking lot behind the Dairy Queen. Meet me there! "And BYOBB (Bring Your Own Beer and Bats)!" he added. The pipe bombs, allegedly placed in mailboxes by 21-year-old Luke J. Helder of Pine Island, Minn., were set to go off if they were moved. As a result, six people were injured, residents across the Midwest were warned not to touch closed mailboxes, and thousands of drunken current and former high school football players who couldn't get laid had nothing else to do. To fill the void, many teenagers turned their bricks and bats on anything next to the road, including street signage, telephone poles, Jersey barriers, opossums, members of the Saint Louis Cycling Club, and, in some desperate cases, shrubbery and decorative plantings courtesy of local Jaycees. However, offenders reported, the effect wasn't the same. "You ever hang off the side of a pickup truck doing 40 miles an hour and take out a row of Orange Emperor tulips with a baseball bat?" asked 18-year-old Josh Handling of North Little Rock, Ark. "It's rather unsatisfying." "You ever hang off the side of a pickup truck doing 40 miles an hour and hit a telephone pole with a baseball bat?" added 18-year-old Kevin Sprott of Kenosha, Wisc. The all-state left tackle for Kenosha Central High School then held up his wrists to display a pair of casts. "I hope they fry that Helder guy," Sprott said. In Kearney, Neb., meanwhile, frustrated twin brothers Calvin and Anthony Richfield, 19, dressed up as mailboxes and took turns bashing each other with a 34-oz. Louisville Slugger. Services are scheduled for Monday. With Helder's arrest, however, juvenile life across the middle of the country should return to normal. "This was going to be my last chance to bash mailboxes before heading off to college," said senior Kent Dandridge of Waco, Texas, who scored 21 points in one quarter in a game last fall and took out 32 mailboxes in one night last month after his girlfriend Cindy broke up with him. "Now that they nailed the guy, it looks like it's going to be a great summer whether that bitch Cindy gets back with me or not." RECOMMEND THIS PAGE Copyright © 2002, SatireWire.
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Subject: RE: BS: An Argument for the Pillory? From: catspaw49 Date: 09 May 02 - 02:02 PM I have no idea about the details of Leej's story, but I can tell you about one that can be documented if you care to....I will not post a name here, but a citizen confronted with the same problem as Leej's, that is teens playing mailbox baseball. It was in June of 1978 in Fairfield County in Ohio. In this case, the teens had been previosuly identified but the Sheriff's department could not prove they had heen the vandals. At this point, Citizen X erected a mailbox with a piece of steel rail welded to the post and the mailbox set on top. He had the welding done at an automotive shop in Reynoldsburg, Ohio where he had his cars repaired and serviced. The vandals attacked his mailbox on SR204 about a week later and the batter received a broken wrist. Charges were filed against the youths involved and no one counter-sued in this case. No urban myth here. I doubt Leej's is a myth either. Spaw....co-owner of French Run Automotive in 1978 |
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Subject: RE: BS: An Argument for the Pillory? From: catspaw49 Date: 09 May 02 - 02:05 PM Gee isn't it nice that the bomber was caught and the Mailbox Baseball season is saved? Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: An Argument for the Pillory? From: Lonesome EJ Date: 09 May 02 - 02:13 PM Who suggested he be punished prior to his conviction? Wasn't me. Some of you need a lesson on the meaning of vigilantism, don't you? Vigilantism is punishment of an accused criminal by self-appointed and unofficial members of the populace, with punishment administered arbitrarily. If the governing body of a state declares a method of punishment legal within that state (whether it be the Pillory or Public Trash Collection), and if an individual is arrested, tried, found guilty, and punished within the framework of existing laws of that state, then there is nothing to indicate vigilantism. Oh, and personally, I don't see punishment in the Pillory as essentially more cruel than imprisonment. The aspect of public humiliation of individuals convicted of crimes that bothers you is what? It will hurt their feelings? It will damage their already fragile self images? It will piss them off so they'll be more likely to do it again? They are the unjust victims of a cruel and repressive system, and since their actions can always be excused by extenuating circumstances, we should just give them the benefit of the doubt and make them promise not to do it again?
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Subject: RE: BS: An Argument for the Pillory? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 May 02 - 02:27 PM Vigilantes are indeed people who take it themselves to deal out punishment, for example lynch-mobs, "punishment beatings" in Northern Ireland, and pict's Glaswegian with a baseball bat.
The pillory historically represented a collaboration between official justice and vigilantism/mob violence. The idea wasn't so much humiliation as keeping the person available for the mob to deal with as they wished, by throwing anything the wanted at them. A sort of cross between temporary crucifixion and public stoning. (That's where the Taliban analogy came in) It wasn't uncommon for people in the pillory to be killed. And being put in the pillory was typically accompanied by cropping the ears, or nailing them to the pillory.
Take away the mob violence and so forth, and I hardly think that it would be seen by many young vandals as much of a humiliation In fact more probably the reverse, it'd be more of a reward. Fifteen minutes of fame. |
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Subject: RE: BS: An Argument for the Pillory? From: catspaw49 Date: 09 May 02 - 02:45 PM Well Mac, that's where the exposed balls part comes in......as a few passing size 13's will wipe the grin off their faces. Actually, I'm very much with Leej on this one. Make it the law and let's try it out. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: An Argument for the Pillory? From: Lonesome EJ Date: 09 May 02 - 02:55 PM I disagree with Spaw on the nut-kicking aspect. I think the pilloried individual should be displayed in a special room that comes as close as possible to a goldfish bowl. Nobody can hit, kick, spit on, or pelt the prisoner with over-ripe produce. Public seating around the periphery should be provided for those with a grievance against the person, or just the curious. His crime should be clearly described on a sign above his head. Signs, shouted comments, etc should be allowed. The press should be allowed only access from the gallery, no interviews, etc. If we all get behind this, guys, this could work! |
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Subject: RE: BS: An Argument for the Pillory? From: DonD Date: 09 May 02 - 02:57 PM Oh. I set out from Wisconsin With my pipe bombs in my car I've 'mailed 'em in Kansas and Iowa And I'm bound for Omaha. Chorus: Oh, my name's Luke Helder and - No ifs, snds or buts - You may think I'm smirking cheekily But the simple truth's I'm nuts! I sent my pa a letter, Said the government are lice And to teach 'em all a lesson Two dozen mailmen are gonna pay the price. Chorus You can put me in a pillory or stocks across the nation, I'll smile and smile my loony smile Don't know the meaning of humiliation. Chorus If I had seen some other kook Held up to ridicule, Would I have really been deterred? I'm nuts, I'd think, "That's cool!" Chorus |
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Subject: RE: BS: An Argument for the Pillory? From: Ebbie Date: 09 May 02 - 03:12 PM The vandals attacked his mailbox on SR204 about a week later and the batter received a broken wrist. Charges were filed against the youths involved and no one counter-sued in this case. Spaw, that is the outcome of events that I would expect from this kind of incident. The urbanely mythical facet is the countersuit and results therefrom.
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Subject: RE: BS: An Argument for the Pillory? From: catspaw49 Date: 09 May 02 - 03:14 PM Oh.......well then that's different................Never mind......... Emily Latella |
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Subject: RE: BS: An Argument for the Pillory? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 09 May 02 - 03:17 PM I assume the stocks stopped being used for some reason - I don't know what it was but it must have been a good argument at the time. While I agree with the sentiment, and lots of other 'short sharp shock' treatments rather than useless incarceration and even more useless 'offender rehabiliation' programmes, I think I would like to see evidence that it did work before I jump on the bandwagon. There is not much point in having yet another device for making the criminals worse! Iron Maiden though - now your talking! And make the worst offenders listen to Slipknot and Marilyn Manson as well...;-) Cheers Dave the Gnome |
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Subject: RE: BS: An Argument for the Pillory? From: Lonesome EJ Date: 09 May 02 - 03:28 PM Yeah, Spaw. You could have really helped me out if you had changed the ending a little bit. Good point that pilooring Helder might not change his mindset, Don. However, I'll bet it would do wonders in removing the glamour from local crack dealers to have them pilloried in front of the little kids on the block. |
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Subject: RE: BS: An Argument for the Pillory? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 May 02 - 03:29 PM Restitution, that's the way to go. |
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Subject: RE: BS: An Argument for the Pillory? From: Lonesome EJ Date: 09 May 02 - 03:47 PM I wouldn't rule that out either, McG. Davegnome, I think the pillory was perceived as cruel and unusual punishment and an unconstitutional form of punishment. I don't know whether it was because of the public humiliation, or the physical cruelty aspects that McGrath talks about. |
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Subject: RE: BS: An Argument for the Pillory? From: catspaw49 Date: 09 May 02 - 04:02 PM Mac, can you explain how restitution works? So here's this kid with no money and he blows my arm off with a pipe bomb. We somehow establish a monetary value for my arm and he's supposed to pay up? How? What does he do? Write a book like "My Life As A Moronic Asshole?" This assumes we can do as the insurance companies do and put a value on my arm. Maybe I'm dead instead.......How much then? And where does it come from? Or is restitution repairing mailboxes for the next 25 years or something? What's the deal? Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: An Argument for the Pillory? From: GUEST Date: 09 May 02 - 07:04 PM I think it is important to keep the actual alleged crimes in perspective. No one was killed. Of those who were injured, I believe 4/5 were treated and released the same day, and 1/2 were hospitalized overnight. There is no evidence at this point that the pipebombs were deadly. None. What we are seeing in this thread is the sort of wild conjecture that rumor mills are made of. Because there is a small bit of video footage of the alleged smiling doesn't mean anything, except that some camera person got lucky and caught a fleeting moment on video which is now being used to try the suspect in the court of public opinion. There is a high level of hysterical post 9/11 anxiety attached to this case, despite the fact it doesn't hold a candle to how many other acts of real, brutal violence have occurred across the US in the past week, in which real people were murdered, maimed for life, robbed of all their money/possessions, etc. Get a grip people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: An Argument for the Pillory? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 May 02 - 07:25 PM Restitution applies for especially for things where there can be restitution - vandalism, theft, white collar crime. Where personal injury comes in, it's not such a relevant concept. Or rather, it can only be part of it.
If you do someone wrong, you owe it to them to make it up insofar as you can, at whatever cost to yourself. And if you won't do it of your own will, the community has a responsibility to make you. There's always talk about people owing a debt to society, but in the first place the debt is to the person harmed by you.
It's largely when the law loses sight of that that the anger builds up and the wish for vengeance. All too often the needs of the victim are completely ignored. |
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Subject: RE: BS: An Argument for the Pillory? From: GUEST Date: 09 May 02 - 07:31 PM BTW, according to FBI statistics, there are an average 2000 criminal bombings per year in the US, averaging around 38 per week. The number of bombings has been decreasing in recent years. I've not got current murder by firearms statistics in front of me, but I'm recalling it is over 12,000/yr in the US, or about 230/week. I think we have much more serious crimes to concern ourselves with. I don't recall, in all my years here, seeing this sort of concern regarding violent crime voiced by the Mudcat reactionaries prior to this, so why is this crime being considered so much more dastardly by some here?
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Subject: RE: BS: An Argument for the Pillory? From: Art Thieme Date: 09 May 02 - 07:54 PM This is a great idea. There's probably several million people who ought to have this done to them. It would be a conservation boon that would definitely halt soil erosion problems----sort of like planting trees. ;-) Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: BS: An Argument for the Pillory? From: GUEST Date: 09 May 02 - 08:13 PM Yes, and I think the list of offenses for which we should pillory people should include being poor, falling behind on the rent, needing any sort of government assistance (unless you are a corporation), being from a country where the Muslim religion is the majority religion, being an African American teenage boy, liking punk music, let's see... Oh yeah! Owning dog/cat/bird breeds I don't like--that's the one I forgot. |
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Subject: RE: BS: An Argument for the Pillory? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 May 02 - 08:18 PM Then there are the musical offences, such as playing a... |
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Subject: RE: BS: An Argument for the Pillory? From: Lonesome EJ Date: 09 May 02 - 08:22 PM Well it would certainly put a crimp in a bodrhan player's technique. |
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Subject: RE: BS: An Argument for the Pillory? From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 09 May 02 - 08:54 PM At the Jailer's Inn Bed and Breakfast here in Bardstown we already have a pillory for anyone to use. Often I see tourists taking pictures of it (and of themselves in it.) As far as the mailbox bashing, I don't think that is an urban legend at all. When we first moved to this town we had a large mailbox (which was also part of our advertising because we couldn't put up a sign in a residential area). It was great sport for the teens to drive by with baseball bats. We used to fantasize about all kinds of booby traps, a la Roadrunner and Wiley Coyote, but Hubby said it just wasn't right to risk hurting someone. He did chase a car one night after hearing the smash, and when he came to a fork in the road, chose the wrong path and surprised a little ole lady that just about wet her pants when he caught up with her. As far as vandalism, my dad had the best solution I ever heard. He had a large pond next to a high hill. At the top of the hill was a large wooden spool (used for cable...many people use the empty ones for picnic tables). Some teenage boys were fishing and decided to roll it down the hill into the pond. Naturally they got caught, scared to death of my dad. Daddy told them that all was OK, wouldn't involve the police or their parents, just put it back on top of the hill where it belonged. One boy breathed a sigh of relief and said he'd go get a tractor, to which Daddy said, "Oh no, you got it down the hill and into the pond without a tractor, put it back without one!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: An Argument for the Pillory? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 May 02 - 09:41 PM That's the kind of thing I mean by restitution, Mary.
That's a great story about chasing the vandal and catching the old lady. But it does gover a hint of one problem that arises with vigilanteism. I mean, if your Hubby had been a vengeful type with a basball bat, and it hadn't been a litle old lady he caught up with but some young man going home late at night who was in fact totally innocent... |