Origins: Dives and Lazarus-or vice versa(Child 56)

Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 10 May 02 - 12:32 PM

F.J. Child had this to say on the subject:

"The subject could not escape the popular muse: e.g. Socard, Nöels et Cantiques imprimés à Troyes, Histoire de Lazare et du Mauvais Riche, p. 118 ff; 'El mal rico', Milá, Romancerillo, p. 16, No. 16, A-F; 'Lazarus', Des Dülkener Fiedlers Liederbuch, p. 53, No. 63; 'Lazare a bohatec,' Sušil, Moravské Národní Písne;, p. 19, No. 18, Wenzig, Bibliothek Slavischer Poesien, p. 114; Bezsonof, Kalyeki Perekhozhie, I, 43-47, Nos. 19-27.

There is a very beautiful ballad, in which the Madonna takes the place of Lazarus, in Roadside Songs of Tuscany, Francesca Alexander and John Ruskin, 'La Madonna e il Riccone,' p. 82."

These are not relatives, as such, of our Dives and Lazarus, but different songs on the same subject.

Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 10 May 02 - 12:53 PM

Scabby Doug, another song from the Apocrypha is The Cherry Tree Carol, from I believe False Mark.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 05:19 AM

Does anybody have the chords to the above song as song by Martin Simpson? Be great if we could all play it.
guest, palmer

Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: GUEST,CC
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 08:30 PM

As an Oxford educated Anglo-catholic priest I always rather thought the convention was 'dee-wes' but I guess we'll never know entirely.

Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: Gweltas
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 08:42 PM

In my 5 years of Latin study in a convent school in Ireland we were taught to pronounce Dives as "DEE-ves"

Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: GUEST,MtheGM
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 11:22 PM

Surprised that none of all you classically educated has pointed out that the reason Latin V was taken in "Reformed Pronunciation" to be pronounced like our W is that it was just a conventional way of writing our U: so that "Claudius" on an inscription would appear as "Clavdivs"; so before a vowel it would be pronounced as W. Hence some people's theory that "Dee-wayz" would have been correct for "Dives". But that theory is of early 20C origin — A P Herbert had some sarcastic things to say about it in the 1930s; so is unlikely to have appealed to source singers of 18-19C.

Subject: ADD Version: Dives and Lazarus
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 02:15 AM

I was looking for a version of Dives and Lazarus with a chorus, and couldn't find one at Mudcat. I DID find a pretty good one at http://www.anglocatholicsocialism.org/singing.html, but I'm still looking for others. The tune, of course, is Kingsfold (Star of the County Down).
Any other versions with choruses?
-Joe-

Here's the version from anglocatholicsocialism.org (love that URL):

Dives and Lazarus

       As it fell out upon one day,
       Rich Diverus he made a feast;
       And he invited all his friends,
       And Gentry of the best.
       And it fell out upon one day,
       Poor Lazarus he was so poor,
       He came and laid him down and down,
       Ev'n down at Diverus door.

                And it fell out upon one day,
                Poor Lazarus he was so poor,
                He came and laid him down and down,
                Ev'n down at Diverus door.

         Then Lazarus laid him down and down,
         Ev'n down at Diverus gate,
         Some meat, some drink, brother Diverus,
         For Jesu Christ his sake.
         Thou are none of my brother Lazarus,
         Lying begging at my gate,
         No meat, no drink, will I give thee,
         For Jesu Christ his sake.

                And it fell out upon one day,
                Poor Lazarus he was so poor,
                He came and laid him down and down,
                Ev'n down at Diverus door.

         Then Diverus sent his merry men all,
         To whip poor Lazarus away.
         They had no power to whip one whip,
         But threw their whips away.
         Then Diverus sent out his hungry dogs,
         To bite poor Lazarus away;
         They had not power to bite one bite,
         But licked his sores away.

                And it fell out upon one day,
                Poor Lazarus he was so poor,
                He came and laid him down and down,
                Ev'n down at Diverus door.

         And it fell out upon one day,
         Poor Lazarus sickened and died.
         There came two angels out of Heav'n,
         His soul thereto to guide.
         Rise up, rise up, brother Lazarus,
         And come along with me.
         There is a place prepared in Heav'n,
         For to sit upon an angel's knee.

                And it fell out upon one day,
                Poor Lazarus he was so poor,
                He came and laid him down and down,
                Ev'n down at Diverus door.

         And it fell out upon one day,
         Rich Diverus he sickened and died.
         There came two serpents out of hell,
         His soul thereto to guide.
         Rise up, rise up, brother Diverus,
         And come along with me.
         There is a place prepared in hell,
         For to sit upon a serpent's knee.

                And it fell out upon one day,
                Poor Lazarus he was so poor,
                He came and laid him down and down,
                Ev'n down at Diverus door.

Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: GUEST,Bedinog
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 12:38 PM

he voice of Ralph Vaughan Williams is heard on the Tony Parker film documentary about his life, and RVW specifically days 'Die-vees' when referring to his music. I think the composer knows what he's calling his own music irrespective of the scholarly views, and he did attend an 'Oxbridge' college- Trinity College, Cambridge.

Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: Gurney
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 01:23 PM

So, the conclusion is,
everyone has an opinion,
opinions are all different,
it doesn't matter,
no-one knows,
various authorities are also out-of-date,
and we have to be guided by some-one dead who pronounced 'Ralph' as 'Rafe.' (In the English manner.)

Very edifying! :-)

I'll go go on singing it my own way, rhyming with 'hives.'

Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 01:54 PM

Oh, the dives he visited-

Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: GUEST,Meg
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 01:07 PM

can anyone tell me why Michael Raven left out the last verse of this Ballad in his "Songs from Ross workhouse? I would like to be able to introduce itwith a little history history at a concert next week but have not been able to explain why he leaves it out (He doesn't include the chorus either.)

Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: Jim McLean
Date: 13 Jun 11 - 06:07 AM

It has been mentioned that the melody used for Dives and Lazarus, LAZARUS from English Country Songs by Lucy Broadwood and Maitland, 1893, is also The Star of the County Down. I did some research on the tune family Lazarus, which has already been pointed out, includes the very old Gilderoy. The oldest variants of the tune I found were a Gregorian chant, En Gaudeat, 12th Century, a Latin Carol called Congaudeat, 1582 which takes us to Gilderoy then Lucy Broadwood's Lazarus and finally The Star of the County Down.
This is of course a quick summary .

Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: Will Fly
Date: 13 Jun 11 - 06:14 AM

Thanks for that info, Jim. I did a recording of "Lazarus" from the score in Broadwood and Maitland, and it's interesting to hear the differences in the melodies and harmonic backgrounds between that and the "Star of the County Down".

"Lazarus" is actually quite a melancholy and thoughtful tune, while the "Star" is usually taken at a rollicking pace - two different slants to the same basic melody.

Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Jun 11 - 06:38 AM

Pedantically ~~ the Broadwood & Fuller Maitland book is actually English County [not 'Country] Songs.

Of course it's the Star Of County Down tune ~~ surely Cathal Garvey will have been well aware of that when he wrote his famous song so memorably covered by the great Count John McCormack.

~M~

Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: GUEST,Scabby Douglas
Date: 13 Jun 11 - 07:54 AM

This thread popped up, and I was interested in it... then I was surprised to see that it had been me who originally created it.

Thanks again to all who contributed ...

Really intriguing and useful.

Just what Mudcat does best


Regards



Steven

Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 05:25 PM

In fact similarity of this tune to Star of County Down has oft been noted. Following e.g. from OP of an old thread~~

···Subject: Star of the County Down
From: Paul Stamler - PM
Date: 18 Feb 98 - 02:41 AM
Hey, folks: How many songs do you know that use the tune "Star of the County Down", aka "Dives and Lazarus"?···

There are also frequent refs which can be found by googling the two titles together in the Roud Index e.g. ~~

···Dives and Lazarus (Roud 477; Child 56)
24 Feb 2011 ... The tune is related to the Irish air of Star of the County Down···

and in sleevenotes by Bert Lloyd.

~M~

shall refresh that old thread to show how many other songs share this air.

Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: Darowyn
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 03:49 AM

Although there seem to be plenty of people who know that Dives means 'rich', nobody yet has picked up that Lazarus is also an adjective prior to being taken as a personal name.
"Dives atque lazarus' could be translated as "The Rich Man and the Leper"
I don't know enough Hebrew to know if the same is true of Eleazer, though it would not surprise me, since there is a trace of the same word root there.
Cheers
Dave

Subject: DT Correction: Dives & Lazarus
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Mar 15 - 02:58 PM

I don't think your perception is quite correct, Darowyn. It's my understanding that "Lazarus" (Greek "Lazaros") is a Latinization of the Hebrew "Eleazar," which means "God is my help." The beggar Lazarus, who was covered with sores and was quite possibly a leper, later came to be regarded as the patron saint of lepers. The association with leprosy comes from this story, but does not pre-date this story.

Note that the beggar Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31) is a character in a parable. Lazarus of Bethany (Gospel of John, Chapter 11), brother of Martha and Mary, was the one who was raised from the dead.

-Joe-

---

I'm working on the lyrics of "Dives and Lazarus," and the lyrics I was given to start with were the ones from the Digital Tradition. To my mind, the DT's coupling of couplets into four-line verses is unfortunate. The usual tune is identified in hymnals as "Kingsfold" (I Heard the Voice of Jesus Say). On most recordings I've listened to, the "B" part of the melody is used on the "answer" verses ("Thou art none of my brothers" and "Rise up, rise up.") The other verses generally get the "A" part of the melody.


DIVERS AND LAZARUS (DT Version)

As it fell out upon one day rich Divers made a feast
And he invited all his friends and gentry of the best
The Lazarus laid him down and down and down at Divers door
"Some meat, some drink, brother Divers, to bestow upon the poor"

"Thou are non of my brothers, Lazarus, that lies begging at my door
No meat nor drink will I give thee, nor bestow upon the poor."
Then Lazarus laid him down and down and down at Divers' gate
"Some meat, some drink, brother Divers, for Jesus Christ's sake"

"Thou art none of my brothers, Lazarus, that lies begging at my gate
No meat nor drink will I give thee for Jesus Christ's sake"
The Divers sent out out two merry men to whip poor Lazarus away
They had no power to strike at all but threw their whips away

"Thou art none of my brothers, Lazarus, That lies begging at my wall
No meat nor drink will I give thee, but with hunger, starve you shall"
Then Divers sent out two hungry dogs to bite him as he lay
They had no power to bite at all, but licked his sores away

As it fell our upon one day, poor Lazarus sickened and died
There came two angels out of Heaven, his soul therein to guide
"Rise up, rise up, brother Lazarus, and come along with me
For there's a place prepared in Heaven to sit on an angel's knee"

As it fell out upon one day, rich Divers sickened and died
There came two serpents out of hell, his soul therein to guide
"Rise up, rise up, brother Divers, and come along with me
For there's a place prepared in Hell, from which thou canst not flee"

Then Divers looked up with his eyes and saw poor Lazarus blessed
"Give me one drop of water," he said, "To quench my flaming thirst
Had I as many years to live, as there are blades of grass
Then I would find some peace secure, and the devil would have no part."

Child #56
@religion
filename[ DIVRSLAZ
TUNE FILE: DIVRSLAZ
CLICK TO PLAY
TUNE FILE: STARDOWN
CLICK TO PLAY
recorded by Roberts and Barrand on Nowell Sing We Clear
SOF


This is what I've come up with for submission to Rise Again. What think ye?

Dives & Lazarus

[AAB] As it fell out upon one day, rich Divers made a feast
And he invited all his friends & gentry of the best
Lazarus laid him down & down, & down at Divers’ door
“Some meat, some drink, Bro. Diverus, do bestow upon the poor”
“Thou art none of my brothers, Lazarus, that lies begging at my door
No meat nor drink will I give thee, nor bestow upon the poor”

[AB] Then Lazarus laid him down & down, & down at Divers’ gate
“Some meat, some drink, Bro. Diverus, for Jesus Christ, his sake”
“Thou’rt none of my brothers, Lazarus, that lies begging at my gate
No meat nor drink will I give thee for Jesus Christ, his sake”

[AA] Then Divers sent out his merry men to whip poor Lazarus away
They’d not the power to strike one stroke, but flung their whips away
Then Divers sent out his hungry dogs to bite him as he lay
They had no power to bite at all, but licked his sores away

[AB] As it fell out upon one day, poor Lazarus sickened & died
There came 2 angels out of Heaven, his soul therein to guide
“Rise up, rise up, Bro. Lazarus & come along with me
For there's a place prepared in Heaven to sit on an angel's knee”

[AB] As it fell out upon one day, rich Divers sickened & died
There came 2 serpents out of hell, his soul therein to guide
“Rise up, rise up, Bro. Diverus & come with us to see
A dismal place prepared in Hell, from which thou canst not flee”

[AB] Then Divers looked up with his eyes & saw poor Lazarus blessed
“Give me one drop of water, Bro. Lazarus, to quench my flaming thirst
O, was I now but alive again the space of one half hour!
O, that I had my peace again, then the devil should have no power.”

trad. (English, Child ballad #56)
Tune is the same as “Star of the County Down”.
In Oxford Bk of Carols

Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: Tradsinger
Date: 27 Mar 15 - 05:17 AM

If you want to hear a version from a source singer, here is Emily Bishop of Bromsberrow Heath.

http://sounds.bl.uk/World-and-traditional-music/Peter-Kennedy-Collection/025M-C0604X0098XX-0001V0

She sings the song at about 47min 20 sec into this recording. And she pronounces it "Divers" - just to add to the debate!

Tradsinger.

Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 27 Mar 15 - 09:59 AM

Kingsfold, which is Vaughan Williams' arrangement of this tune (not Holst's as someone above seemed to be saying) is used as a tune for at least 53 hymns, the two most popular being "O sing a song of Bethlehem" and "I heard the voice of Jesus say". Its use as a hymn tune goes back to 1906, so probably predates "Star of the County Down" (but definitely not Gilderoy, and probably not Maria Marten). Vaughan Williams got it from Broadwood and Maitland, as others have said, but knowing his conventions he would probably have done so after first hearing it sung in a pub in the village of Kingsfold, Sussex. His "Five Variants..." were composed much later.

http://www.hymnary.org/tune/kingsfold_english

Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: GUEST,JS
Date: 21 Apr 15 - 07:12 AM

I like and would recommend the improved A & B settings as suggested above (26 Mar). It has tripped me up a time or two in the past and this makes the intent of the lyrics much clearer.