Tech: Does anyone use Microsoft Frontpage?

Subject: RE: tech: Does anyone use Microsoft Frontpage?
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 05:46 PM

Thanks, SRS. FP can be so frustrating!

Anyway, I found out why I couldn't get the sub-folders to work. A little matter of case sensitivity. The name was right but one teensy little letter of the folder was capitalized where it shouldn't have been... (I should know better).

Subject: RE: tech: Does anyone use Microsoft Frontpage?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 10:18 AM

You might want to save the document as a web page in Word (it's an option under "Save") and compare that (look at the code) to the code that results from just dropping it into Front Page. It's bound to be full of that MSO shit. (I just did it with one of mine then opened the source code to look at it--geez, but more than half of the web edit view is now an elaborate style sheet to reproduce the Word look and it didn't get it right because the original has columns and this doesn't (it didn't put in tables which is how I would do columns)--this page wouldn't be viewed by many search engines because the content is so far down the page). Saving to web doesn't appear to be a good option.

You could do a program in Publisher and also save it to the web. It might have a little better chance of making it out of the original program and look like you wanted, but it would still be huge.

I'm using more PDFs these days, and I found a nifty free program (I think BillD told me about it) that is called PDF995. You can find several small programs to download to enhance the functionality, and the free version is sponsored so you have to look at an ad for a minute before it goes away.

The program works will with Microsoft products, so for example, you have Word document you want to use in the web. You download and install PDF995 and or some of it's editing and distilling programs to work with Word or FrontPage or whatever (if you ask it to do something it doesn't have the right program for it will tell you which program to download. I think I downloaded five or six little programs to do everything I can do now). Once PDF995 is installed, if you open a Word document you want to save, go to the "File" dropdown menu and click on "Print" and then use the drop down menu where your printer is listed and at the bottom you'll find a printer symbol and "PDF995." Select that, tell it OK, and it will save a copy of the PDF to your desktop (it won't actually print that one). They're very tidy.

I am using Front Page still for work--they're trying to build in more of the functionality that is in Dreamweaver, that I still have and still don't use very well. Front Page has improved, but now it tries to put in tags in sets and it messes you up if you write your own code part of the time. You have to keep taking out the extra tags it automatically drops in every time you type one.

SRS

Subject: RE: tech: Does anyone use Microsoft Frontpage?
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 09:28 AM

Never mind about my first question, above. Duh, just drag the document file onto the page. What I still haven't found yet is the WORD icon, which I'd like to use instead of text.

Subject: RE: tech: Does anyone use Microsoft Frontpage?
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 08:56 AM

Can anyone tell me how to drop a WORD document component into Front Page? I want to put an icon on the web page which will open up a WORD document when double-clicked.

Another FP question: I can't seem to get sub-folders to work when uploaded to the server. They work fine on my desktop and the web looks OK, but then the page cannot be accessed if more than 2 levels down when uploaded.

Subject: RE: tech: Does anyone use Microsoft Frontpage?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 13 May 02 - 07:31 PM

Opps OK, I failed to read again. Ed's experience seems to suggest the clear fields button is more likely to be clicked in error, deleting the would be posters efforts. Anyone got any practical experience on that one?

Jon

Subject: RE: tech: Does anyone use Microsoft Frontpage?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 13 May 02 - 07:19 PM

OK Ed, can't promise anything but I will try to take the preview on board. I will remain reluctant to remove the probably redundunt clear fields button though - I can't see what harm it's presence has even if few use it.

Jon

Subject: RE: tech: Does anyone use Microsoft Frontpage?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 13 May 02 - 05:56 PM

Jon,

I didn't mean to start an 'anti Mudcat rant' and apologies if that's how it appeared. I have contributed money too.

I do however think that a number of contributors here massively over-estimate how much Mudcat should cost, and how innovative and wonderful it is. I remember one post suggesting that Max would easily be able to sell the concept for $1million...

I also have problems with relatively simple beta testing that takes 9 months (and counting) longer than announced, but that's for another thread.

Back to your question:

By "Preview with HTML and all" I meant what I assume Mudcat posters to mean; having a 'preview' window that shows your message as it will actually appear, so that you can check if you've made any html mistakes.

So that when you want to highlight a single word in BOLD, the entire message isn't emboldend because you forgot a slash

Hope that makes sense?

As I said, I have no idea as to how difficult that would be to implement.

I do however think that getting rid of the 'Clear Fields' button would be both simple and a great improvement. It seems to have become a standard ever since 'forms' appeared in html, and I'll admit to having written pages that incorporate it a few times myself, but when I think about it, it's a totally useless function.

The only people who use it are those who click it by mistake and lose thier messages.

Ed

Subject: RE: tech: Does anyone use Microsoft Frontpage?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 13 May 02 - 04:03 PM

Ed, I shouldn't got started. I just took exception to McGrath's comments particularly as I always try to invite suggestions, and to date have managed to implement changes promptly.

There is a common misconception about money and web sites. You can pretty good functionality for very little outlay and as we are both aware, some of the best software is free - although that can of course mean re-programming, people learning new skills, etc. not a task that is always easy or indeed practical to undertake.

Some problems will never go away. Mudcat does get a huge ammount of trafic (would love to know what the bandwith usage is) and also runs on it's own servers - I think an excellent option considering the control it gives. These things do cost money (and Mudcat is pretty powerful I think...) and I certainly do not begrudge trying to contribute a little myself on the odd occasions when I can.

"Preview with HTML and all", explain a little more - you mean sort of like a "veiw source"? I think I could do it simply by using a "Text Area" box on a form but I doubt if many would use it.

Jon

Subject: RE: tech: Does anyone use Microsoft Frontpage?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 13 May 02 - 03:13 PM

Jon

I'd agree, I think the Annexeis a lot better than Mudcat in pretty much every respect. (Especially the Search facilities and the FAQ, and... dont get me started...)

And you manage to do it all on a shoestring, no $50 000 upgrades that Bert mentioned. But we're not allowed to say that, are we?

If you want to improve it, I'd suggest a couple of things that have been mentioned as possible Mudcat improvements.

Lose the 'Clear Fields' or in Mudcat's case 'Clear Entries' button. Who ever uses that?

Secondly, the ability to preview messages, html and all would be good, but I'd imagine that's quite a lot of coding.

All the best

Ed

Subject: RE: tech: Does anyone use Microsoft Frontpage?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 13 May 02 - 01:04 PM

Mostly notepad for me these days although I could do with something that gives me line numbers and syntax higlighting prefrably in HTML, ASP and PHP - any reccomendations?

I don't know what the higher end products are like. The only thing I have tried is Interdev (I think). That one fails to allow preview mode with some of my ASP so I really only used it for syntax highlighting.

Re McGraths comments on discussion forums, I would argue that the Annexe is easier (and is more flexible in many ways) but that is my design and I am of course biased.

If anyone has any suggestions as to how I can improve the site further, please let me know and I will give it my best shot

Jon

Subject: RE: tech: Does anyone use Microsoft Frontpage?
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 13 May 02 - 11:23 AM

Maybe its because I'm old enough to have used a mark up language on a mainframe but generally I find hand coding the html is far easier.

Subject: RE: tech: Does anyone use Microsoft Frontpage?
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 13 May 02 - 09:25 AM

Ed, you're absolutely right that screens have to be checked for viewing on lower resolutions as well as on various browsers. This was emphasized at the FP class I attended. McGrath, I agree that ease of use and navigation are critical to good web design. It's also important (to me) for the graphics to load quickly, or I lose interest and back out of the site.

On my own family site, however, the family is stuck with whatever I get around to putting up, so tools like FrontPage made it easier for me to put up more, faster. The interest is there but not the time, so I'm happy to leave the sophisticated (and amazingly good) web design to my son the graphic designer.

Subject: RE: tech: Does anyone use Microsoft Frontpage?
From: Dead Horse
Date: 13 May 02 - 02:55 AM

Visited the site for Saltburn Fest. and was interested as I have just purchased Serif PP8 myself. One criticism tho, you don't seem to have used the spillshecker !!!
That is one of the *new* features of PP8, and a *must have* for such a bad spiller like miself. One day I shall set myself up for public humiliation by going on the web. (been saying that for years................)

Subject: RE: tech: Does anyone use Microsoft Frontpage?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 12 May 02 - 11:51 AM

Barbara,

You said I don't really care what's in the background as long as my screens look like I intend them to look.

I'm not criticizing you, as I've never seen any of your pages, but I've found that that attitude is one of the biggest problems in bad web design.

Very often pages are designed on computers with a high screen resolution. The designer thinks they are fine because they look great to him/her.

However, because they've accepted the default table attributes offered by FrontPage (and Dreamweaver, to be fair) readers using older monitors with a smaller display resolution(640x480 say) have to scroll horizontally to read the page, which is incredibly annoying.

It's very easy to change this, but you'll probably need to go into the html code to do it.

If nothing else, as well as checking your pages in IE and Netscape (versions 3 and 4 if possible) change your screen resolution to 640x480 and see what they look like then

Ed

Subject: RE: tech: Does anyone use Microsoft Frontpage?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 May 02 - 11:22 AM

What impresses me about sites isn't when they look flashy, it's their ease of use and navigation. Which is one reason the Mudcat is so great, compared with any other discussion forum site I have ever seen.

Subject: RE: tech: Does anyone use Microsoft Frontpage?
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 11 May 02 - 10:32 PM

FrontPage 2000 (which I have) lets you preview in either Explorer or Netscape. As for generating extra html, I don't really care. Now that I don't have to write html anymore, I don't really care what's in the background as long as my screens look like I intend them to look. But FrontPage does have some procedural idiosyncracies that are awkward and confusing, so I'm not exactly championing it. Also, the sites that are really impressive to me lately seem to use scripts and flash and other things that I have not tried yet.

Subject: RE: tech: Does anyone use Microsoft Frontpage?
From: Robin2
Date: 11 May 02 - 09:52 PM

I think for me the biggest drawback mentioned about Frontpage is that pages may not display properly in deferent browsers. Has the 2002 version fixed that very basic problem?

Gargoyle, thanks for the coffeecup link. I'm going to be trying out different editors over the weekend if I can.

Robin

Robin

Subject: RE: tech: Does anyone use Microsoft Frontpage?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 May 02 - 05:15 PM

lycos gives me lots more room, Ed - 10Mb doesn't go too far if you are putting a few RealAudio song files up, ; and it's virtually ad free.

Since I can't see the excess HTML everyone says Front Page (and Front Page Express) gives, unless I specially want to see it, it doesn't worry me that it's there. I tried a version of Dreamweaver once, but I found it less convenient for some reason - I can't even remember what that was either.

But if I ever switch to anything else, it'll have to be WYSIWYG. Messing around with HTML is not for me, I'm too lazy and I know I'd keep on getting it wrong. Why, even the HTML involved in blue clickies, I keep getting it wrong.

Subject: RE: tech: Does anyone use Microsoft Frontpage?
From: Gareth
Date: 11 May 02 - 04:17 PM

For What it's worth I use the frebie version of "Hot Metal" not perfect but its simple and has a WYSIWYG, or near enuf.

Gareth

Subject: RE: tech: Does anyone use Microsoft Frontpage?
From: hesperis
Date: 11 May 02 - 02:43 PM

HTML-Kit is really nice if you still want to write your own code, and it's free. It took me a while to get used to it after having used arachnophilia for years, but now I prefer it.

I use dreamweaver ultradev for more advanced stuff, with the phakt plugin for php server behaviours.

I have used FP, coffeecup, notepad, treepad (frames only export), and several others, but I would recommend arachnophilia, html-kit, or dreamweaver. I haven't tried adobe's stuff yet.

Subject: RE: tech: Does anyone use Microsoft Frontpage?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 11 May 02 - 01:33 AM

Easier, cleaner, crisp and friendly....

What you use is what you love....After a year with coffecup I have forgotten and lost my notepad "crib-sheets."

Give them a try ... only the upgrade has a price-tag and even that is cheap...

http://coffeecup.com/software/ You WILL like the HTML package.

Sincerely
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: tech: Does anyone use Microsoft Frontpage?
From: mooman
Date: 10 May 02 - 12:53 PM

I absolutely hate it! It adds so much unnecessary HTML to a page.

I have settled now with the excellent and inexpensive Coolpage plus a bit of handwritten HTML where necessary.

Best regards,

mooman

Subject: RE: tech: Does anyone use Microsoft Frontpage?
From: Robin2
Date: 10 May 02 - 12:14 PM

So much good advice, and it sounds like almost everyone has other programs they like better than FP.

I have been using Arachnophilia 5, but just so I can preview my pages. I don't really use the features at all.

Microsoft offers a trial CD that I sent for, and I certainly will try it. But it sounds like I'm going to be pretty cautious about laying down the bucks.

Dreamweaver sounds interesting, and I'm going to look at it. But I may just keep slogging along, and writing my own html!

Robin

Subject: RE: tech: Does anyone use Microsoft Frontpage?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 May 02 - 12:02 PM

I use FrontPage at work and I hate it. I spend most of my time in the html view fixing things that FrontPage puts into pages that Netscape and other browsers don't display properly.

If you're taking any Word documents and putting the text onto FrontPage do yourself a favor and drop it into Notepad first to clear out all of the Word trash that accompanies text into FrontPage.

I have Dreamweaver, just haven't had time to learn it. I do a lot of my own html in Notepad and paste it into FrontPage. I use cascading style sheets, and I have a template of the proper wording that goes at the top of good web pages that FrontPage totally ignores putting in place.

When you finish your pages, you might want to run them through a validator, which will produce a printout of the errors or ambiguous spots on your pages. If you fix these, the pages should display properly.

I use http://www.htmlhelp.org/tools/validator/.

SRS

Subject: RE: tech: Does anyone use Microsoft Frontpage?
From: Rich_and_Dee
Date: 10 May 02 - 11:48 AM

Hi,

I started out writing HTML in Wordpad, then downloaded Arachnophilia and really enjoyed it, although I wasn't thrilled with the way Arachnophilia handled previewing code in a browser.

I like Frontpage, although it does stick a lot of junk in the code.

I find Frontpage most effective for myself if I do a lot of HTML coding in the source screen, then use the Frontpage previewer to check the results.

Although Arachnophilia has the same capability, you have to refresh the screen after each edit. Frontpage simplifies at least that much.

I can't quite believe I'm defending Microsoft. Oh well, render unto Caesar...

You have good and solid recommendations in this thread. It'll come down to personal preference.

Rich

Subject: RE: tech: Does anyone use Microsoft Frontpage?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 10 May 02 - 11:47 AM

Cheaper versions of the big boxed programs are sometimes available at college bookstores in an educational/academic version. That means no support, etc. I got Photoshop 5.5 for us$100, for example. You may have to actually enroll, however.

Subject: RE: tech: Does anyone use Microsoft Frontpage?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 May 02 - 08:50 AM

Use Arachnophilia....but if you MUST have Front Page, I'll sell you an unopened box cheap....got it from a friend who has contacts in Redmond

Subject: RE: tech: Does anyone use Microsoft Frontpage?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 10 May 02 - 08:34 AM

*Apologies for thread drift*

McGrath, I believe that you use NTLworld as your ISP? Courious as to why one of your sites is hosted on Lycos, when you've got 10Mb of space, without adverts with NTL?

*Back to the original question*

Personally, I use Dreamweaver and love it. I'd agree with the others who mention the bloated code that Front Page produces, and that's even before you've got into the dreaded 'Front Page Extensions' (don't get me started...)

Even with Dreamweaver, I find that I spend at least a third of the time tweaking the raw html. With FrontPage that'd go up to about 75% of the time.

No it's not worth the money. Investigate the good suggestions that 'Mountain Dog' posted above.

Also Robin, could you post links to the FrontPage creations that make you drool with jealousy?

It would be helpful to know what exactly you are trying to do. Whatever it is, I doubt that FrontPage is the best solution.

Ed

Subject: RE: tech: Does anyone use Microsoft Frontpage?
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 10 May 02 - 08:14 AM

I set up a family web site with my own HTML, and found it to be a good learning experience. Then I got Frontpage and actually loved it! Never having tried any other kind, I can't compare, but compared to doing your own HTML, it's a miracle. Quickly does things that take hours to do otherwise. You can always look at the HTML code it generates and change whatever you like right there in the html.

There's a learning curve, to be sure, and some features are a bit unwieldy, but now that I have it, I use(d) it. If your goal is to noodle around with HTML, don't bother, but if your goal is the result, try one of the many generators.

Subject: RE: tech: Does anyone use Microsoft Frontpage?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 May 02 - 07:23 AM

They talk about Heavy Metal, but a Fairground Organ at full blast can blow it away I reckon... (But it'd be agood idea to say at least in what country Saltburn is and even what county.)

I'm sure it's better doing hand carved HTML, and is more aesthetically pleasing and all - but for my purposes the free version of Front Page, (Front Page Express) works OK. I check what my pages look like on Netscape and Opera, and they seem to look much the same, apart from gimmicks that don't really matter.

Here's one site I run, and here is the other.

Subject: RE: tech: Does anyone use Microsoft Frontpage?
From: Watson
Date: 10 May 02 - 06:47 AM

Sorry Ella!
I take it there's some sort of noise emanating from that site then?
I too use headphones but they are dangling the other side of the desk so I was spared the pain.

Subject: RE: tech: Does anyone use Microsoft Frontpage?
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 10 May 02 - 06:39 AM

OH WATSON...

that site nearly made me fall off my chair in shock...

Here I am at work all relaxed, listening to Eva Cassidy, Midnight in Winter, and I clik on the site, to hear I do like to be beside the sea side, blasting out over Eva, and hurting my ears. (It's a bit loud) I'm wearing headphones.

Didn't get chance to view the site, but I believe you it's good... it's just that I had to hit that back button quick.

coming down from the ceiling now...

E

Subject: RE: tech: Does anyone use Microsoft Frontpage?
From: treewind
Date: 10 May 02 - 06:23 AM

Frontpage runs the highest risk of producing pages that only look right when viewed with Internet explorer with the screen resolutions set to what it expects.

I can well believe Mountain Dog, that it generates huge amounts of markup. I wonder if it's as bad as Word in HTML output mode - that's spectacularly awful!

I prefer hand coded HTML and I love CSS and doing my own graphics!

I don't see how any HTML editor can be genuinely WYSIWYG. WYG for any given page is different on different systems. The best you can do with HTML is make something that makes sense (though maybe looking a bit different) over a wide range of browser capabilities and screen types.

Anahata

(Mudcatting with Galeon under Mandrake 8.1 Linux and using vim for an HTML editor. It does syntax highlighting which is nice)

Subject: RE: tech: Does anyone use Microsoft Frontpage?
From: Watson
Date: 10 May 02 - 06:01 AM

It looks like magician is too modest to tell you where to look to see the site.
It's here!

...and as for WYSIWYG, Arachnophilia isn't truly WYSIWYG, but it allows you to preview with its own internal browser and up to 6 others of your choice.

Subject: RE: tech: Does anyone use Microsoft Frontpage?
From: treewind
Date: 10 May 02 - 05:55 AM

Frontpage runs the highest risk of producing pages that only look right when viewed with Internet explorer with the screen resolutions set to what it expects.

I can well believe Mountain Dog, that it generates huge amounts of markup. I wonder if it's as bad as Word in HTML output mode - that's spectacularly awful!

I prefer hand coded HTML and I love CSS and doing my own graphics!

I don't see how any HTML editor can be genuinely WYSIWYG. WYG for any given page is different on different systems. The best you can do with HTML is make something that makes sense (though maybe looking a bit different) over a wide range of browser capabilities and screen types.

Anahata

(Mudcatting with Galeon under Mandrake 8.1 Linux and using vim for an HTML editor. It does syntax highlighting which is nice)

Subject: RE: tech: Does anyone use Microsoft Frontpage?
From: Watson
Date: 10 May 02 - 05:45 AM

I use FrontPage 2000 for work. It's awful - it generates yards of unnecessary HTML.
As far as just making web pages is concerned, I agree with Mountain Dog, Arachnophilia is very useful. It won't help you with design, but it makes it easier to get the code right.
If you want something more sophisticated, everyone that I know that uses Dreamweaver speaks very highly of it. It looks easy to use and helps you organise the structure of your web site.
If you like the look of other people's web sites, just view the source and copy what they've done. There's nothing FrontPage can do that you can't reproduce yourself.

Subject: RE: tech: Does anyone use Microsoft Frontpage?
From: magician
Date: 10 May 02 - 05:40 AM

I use Serif Page Plus 8. In Web mode iy provides all the advanced functions of Desktop Publishing but publishes the final output to HTML format. It is WYSIWYG, very powerfull, easy to use and 1/4 the price of Front Page. For an example of how I use it go to

Hope you like it

Subject: RE: tech: Does anyone use Microsoft Frontpage?
From: magician
Date: 10 May 02 - 05:38 AM

I use Serif Page Plus 8. In Web mode iy provides all the advanced functions of Desktop Publishing but publishes the final output to HTML format. It is WYSIWYG, very powerfull, easy to use and 1/4 the price of Front Page. For an example of how I use it go to

Subject: RE: tech: Does anyone use Microsoft Frontpage?
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 10 May 02 - 05:21 AM

I have used Frontpage - only because I was made to... Hated it, it was awful. Then I managed to persuade work to get dreamweaver and ...

Now use dreamweaver, and it is excellent, very easy to use, and good results...

Ella

Subject: RE: tech: Does anyone use Microsoft Frontpage?
From: Mountain Dog
Date: 10 May 02 - 04:38 AM

My problem with FrontPage is that in addition to the HTML it generates, it clutters up the code with shoals of non-standard junk. (Do a "View Source" check on a page generated by FrontPage or open one up in your editor and you'll get an idea of what I mean.)I use different HTML editors/generators depending upon the job and the client's needs, but FP isn't usually among them.

As an alternative to old standards like Dreamweaver and GoLive, you can find some very good free programs if you look around. Arachnophilia 5 is a good example; it's free and has a broad range of features. You can download it from the creator's website http://www.arachnoid.com/arachnophilia/index.html. There's also an Australian freebie called 1st Page from Evrsoft that's rich with features. Go to http://www.evrsoft.com/1stpage/ to have a look.

Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone use Microsoft Frontpage?
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 10 May 02 - 03:36 AM

I'm boring enough to just stick with plain old HTML - it serves my every need (it's simple, and is fairly consistent across browsers). But I have a couple of friends who really rate Dreamweaver. I fear change, however, and believe everything can be done in a text editor with a couple of table tags. ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone use Microsoft Frontpage?
From: Musicman
Date: 10 May 02 - 12:54 AM

actually.. i prefer Dreamweaver.......

Subject: Does anyone use Microsoft Frontpage?
From: Robin2
Date: 09 May 02 - 10:51 PM

Hi,

Well, I've been slogging along for years, writing my own html, and I think I've done pretty good...but when I look at some the pages created with MS Frontpage, I drool with jealousy!

Does anyone use this program, and if so, do you like it? Is it easy, and how much control do you have over the html code? (I love to tinker :))Also, is there anywhere I can buy it for less than the $169.00 price on the MS Frontpage homepage?

Thanks for any imput

Robin