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Rape

InOBU 11 May 02 - 09:44 AM
Alice 11 May 02 - 10:30 AM
InOBU 11 May 02 - 11:03 AM
kendall 11 May 02 - 11:08 AM
Celtic Soul 11 May 02 - 11:17 AM
InOBU 11 May 02 - 11:19 AM
InOBU 11 May 02 - 11:20 AM
GUEST,MAG at work 11 May 02 - 11:39 AM
Genie 11 May 02 - 11:49 AM
Ebbie 11 May 02 - 01:32 PM
katlaughing 11 May 02 - 03:55 PM
InOBU 11 May 02 - 04:28 PM
kendall 11 May 02 - 05:27 PM
Áine 11 May 02 - 07:41 PM
InOBU 11 May 02 - 08:17 PM
CapriUni 11 May 02 - 10:14 PM
InOBU 11 May 02 - 10:35 PM
pict 11 May 02 - 11:11 PM
Troll 11 May 02 - 11:12 PM
Hrothgar 11 May 02 - 11:18 PM
Sorcha 11 May 02 - 11:21 PM
GUEST 12 May 02 - 12:26 AM
Sorcha 12 May 02 - 12:49 AM
Cappuccino 12 May 02 - 03:53 AM
InOBU 12 May 02 - 06:28 AM
alanabit 12 May 02 - 06:52 AM
Peg 12 May 02 - 09:16 AM
53 12 May 02 - 10:36 AM
MAG 12 May 02 - 11:30 AM
CapriUni 12 May 02 - 01:26 PM
McGrath of Harlow 12 May 02 - 03:53 PM
Peg 12 May 02 - 05:04 PM
McGrath of Harlow 12 May 02 - 05:40 PM
InOBU 12 May 02 - 06:39 PM
Genie 12 May 02 - 09:43 PM
InOBU 13 May 02 - 05:36 AM
Peg 13 May 02 - 09:45 AM
InOBU 13 May 02 - 10:07 AM
SharonA 13 May 02 - 10:11 AM
InOBU 13 May 02 - 10:38 AM
GUEST,Crazy Eddie 13 May 02 - 11:06 AM
Peg 13 May 02 - 11:29 AM
Alice 13 May 02 - 11:38 AM
Alice 13 May 02 - 11:53 AM
Mrrzy 13 May 02 - 12:35 PM
InOBU 13 May 02 - 12:38 PM
Whistle Stop 13 May 02 - 12:44 PM
GUEST,mg 13 May 02 - 01:32 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 May 02 - 02:10 PM
InOBU 13 May 02 - 02:30 PM
GUEST,mg 13 May 02 - 03:17 PM
Peg 13 May 02 - 03:33 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 May 02 - 06:54 PM
GUEST,mg 13 May 02 - 09:57 PM
InOBU 14 May 02 - 02:22 PM
InOBU 14 May 02 - 03:09 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 May 02 - 04:03 PM
wysiwyg 14 May 02 - 04:34 PM
InOBU 15 May 02 - 04:10 PM
InOBU 16 May 02 - 06:47 AM
pict 16 May 02 - 07:04 AM
InOBU 16 May 02 - 03:13 PM
InOBU 17 May 02 - 10:13 AM
Genie 18 May 02 - 12:18 AM
InOBU 18 May 02 - 09:12 AM
Penny S. 19 May 02 - 06:35 AM
InOBU 19 May 02 - 05:50 PM
katlaughing 20 May 02 - 12:18 AM
Genie 21 May 02 - 02:20 AM
InOBU 24 May 02 - 08:28 AM
GUEST,Bluesman 30 Aug 11 - 07:14 PM
Wesley S 30 Aug 11 - 07:22 PM
GUEST,Bluesman 30 Aug 11 - 07:29 PM
Richard Bridge 30 Aug 11 - 07:51 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 30 Aug 11 - 08:01 PM
GUEST,Bluesman 30 Aug 11 - 08:03 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 30 Aug 11 - 08:09 PM
GUEST,Eliza 31 Aug 11 - 02:04 PM
Will Fly 31 Aug 11 - 02:12 PM
GUEST,Eliza 31 Aug 11 - 02:35 PM
Crowhugger 31 Aug 11 - 02:55 PM
goatfell 01 Sep 11 - 01:40 PM
Wesley S 01 Sep 11 - 02:50 PM
katlaughing 01 Sep 11 - 06:25 PM
goatfell 02 Sep 11 - 11:25 AM
GUEST,Bluesman 09 Mar 12 - 05:31 PM
gnu 09 Mar 12 - 06:30 PM
Nigel Parsons 09 Mar 12 - 08:44 PM
GUEST 17 Mar 12 - 05:37 AM
Richard Bridge 17 Mar 12 - 06:07 AM
GUEST 17 Mar 12 - 06:15 AM
Richard Bridge 17 Mar 12 - 06:53 AM
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Subject: Rape
From: InOBU
Date: 11 May 02 - 09:44 AM

While working with the Bangaladeshi minority communities thi past several weeks, I was confronted by a photo of a young Hindu girl, gang raped - one of thousands, for whom rape was a weapon of war to drive her from her land. The caption of the photo was "Who will marry me"
This song came to me this morning, and I call it the same,

Who will marry me
Words Lorcan Otway, all rights reserved...

I'm a Bangladeshi Hindu girl, I cannot say my name
I cannot show my face to you, I'm forced to flee in shame
I cannot find the words to tell, what they did to me
When the gangs came to my village and robbed my dignity

I cannot speak the words my fear, and horror to relate
When the women of my village became, the target of your hate
With nothing but my tattered clothes, I have been forced to flee
For after my public shame, who would ever marry me

In the decade before I was born, my land was wracked with pain
Democracy and Freedom, religious rights to gain
All the people of our land, shared the terror of that night
to cast off religious hatred and, emerge into the light

I can't understand why the world, allows hate to divide my land
Is our pain so foreign to your world, that you can't understand
The tears of my nation, a waterwheel could turn
Can they not touch your heart enough, our history to learn

How my story ends I cannot say, what's ahead I cannot see
Fundamentalism's fertile fields, are starved lands of poverty
But in the ruins of my land and life, I can only cry in vain
why must I bear the shame alone, who would ever share my pain

One question more I'll ask of you, before I flee my land
One question more I'll put to you, I'm too young to understand
One question more I must demand, before I turn to go,
for the answer to this question, no young girl may ever know

My sister's bodies have become, the target's of your war
And our mother's and our grandmothers, for countless years before
How can it be our dishonor, why is it our disgrace
Why is it not the rapist, who is forced to hide his face

corrections made per InOBU's notes
-joeclone-


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: Alice
Date: 11 May 02 - 10:30 AM

This reminds me of the attack on the girls school dorm in Africa by the male students who later said, "We didn't mean to kill them, we were only going to rape them."

There are many babies and young girls with AIDS now in Africa after being raped in the belief that sex with a virgin cures AIDS, and the younger the virgin, the stronger the cure.

Aside from never being married, some women are killed by their own families for having been raped.
For an article on "honor killings" of women CLICK HERE "Reports submitted to the United Nations Commission on Human Rights show that honor killings have occurred in Bangladesh, Great Britain, Brazil, Ecuador, Egypt, India, Israel, Italy, Jordan, Pakistan, Morocco, Sweden, Turkey, and Uganda."


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: InOBU
Date: 11 May 02 - 11:03 AM

Alice:
Thanks for the link... I have not yet heard of "honor killings" among Bangaladeshi Hindus in the aftermath of "political" rape - but if you find sites spesific to that - please do send them to me. The report on the web page you link speaks in general of Bangladesh, and as the perpitrator community, at the moment is fundimentalist Moslem, the reference may be to "honor killing" among that group. I will put the question to the folks I am working with in the Hindu - Budhist and Christian community as well. There is a question I rase in the song... one that I leave up to the listener to answer, which is why cannot the community also take care enough of the victem, but, for a community who has gone through such horrible abuse, murder and uprooting with has caused the Hindu population to go from 40 to 9 per cent of the Bangladeshi population ... I put the emphasis on the perpatrator community, but the last verse really does ask the quesiton, why is the shame only the victems...
Thanks again,
Larry


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: kendall
Date: 11 May 02 - 11:08 AM

There wAS a time in Italy when a suitor would rape the girl of his choice knowing that no other man would want her.

Man. God's most noble creation, BOLLOX!


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 11 May 02 - 11:17 AM

Until women are viewed as something other than a prize or chattel, this sort of thing will continue to occur.

It is more pervasive and insidious than many think. There are plenty of examples of such even in the "modern world".

Thanks for caring, InOBU, and thanks for putting it to music. Music is a powerful tool.


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: InOBU
Date: 11 May 02 - 11:19 AM

Correction and a typo.... please drop people, for the scan of the verse, The tears of my nations, a waterwheel could turn... also last verse second to last line, "how can it BE our dishonor..." Thanks for the kind comments, Larry


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: InOBU
Date: 11 May 02 - 11:20 AM

Damn... I did it again, tears of my nation - singlular... Have a bad head cold, makes my usual illiteracy even worse! Larry


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: GUEST,MAG at work
Date: 11 May 02 - 11:39 AM

Susan Brownmiller's book, *Against Our Will,* will tell you more than you ever wanted to know about political rape. It will work as a tool to destroy communities as long as communities abandon the victim-survivors.


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: Genie
Date: 11 May 02 - 11:49 AM

Which atrocity against women is worse--rape or the societal attitude that a raped woman is thereby worthless?

Genie

P.S., Good song, InOBU.


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 May 02 - 01:32 PM

I grew up in a very fundamentalistic, male-superior {read "more valuable"}family. The mindset behind the 'honor killings', the notion that women are secondary beings kept me in a rage for 20 years.

The appalling stupidity of humankind...

Thanks, InObu.


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 May 02 - 03:55 PM

May your gods bless you, Lorcan, for being so aware, writing about it, and bringing it to the attention of others. An important and meaningful song. Thank you.

Thanks, Alice, for the link.

kat


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: InOBU
Date: 11 May 02 - 04:28 PM

Thanks Kat... and Joe, it is always good of you to correct our errors, thanks again mate, Cheers Larry
PS.... Please call your congressfolks and ask them to link forign aid to human rights oversite in Bangladesh. ...


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: kendall
Date: 11 May 02 - 05:27 PM

I just had an interesting talk with a Muslim. Basically, we agreed that the nuts are spread all over the world, and we both resent being told what God wants us to do, especially being told to "kill infidels"


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: Áine
Date: 11 May 02 - 07:41 PM

A shem, what a beautiful song to describe such horrific events. I wish we could have had more time the other night for you to tell me more about your dealings with the Bangladesh community. I'll call again soon, when you let me know what a convenient time would be for you.

I do hope that the next Sorcha Dorcha CD (or perhaps a solo CD by yourself) will contain this song. You honor me by giving me your friendship and being my brother.

Le grá, Áine


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: InOBU
Date: 11 May 02 - 08:17 PM

Áine! As I was just saying to Lonsome EJ - my mudcat pals keep me going in this fustrating world. I hope to be starting work on a new CD soon, I am working to get one of our past band members Mary Shannon to record with a couple of folks, all of whom are good and have not recorded yet... I'm not in great voice tonight, have a raging sore throat... but call in a few days and I will sing the song for ya... Cheers Larry


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Subject: RE: (new song) Rape
From: CapriUni
Date: 11 May 02 - 10:14 PM

Great song, Lorcan! It's a horror that boggles the mind. I think the statistic is that something like 52% of the world's population is female (often because the males get into killing each other), and yet, we're still treated like a "minority".

So how do we break the cycle?

Oh, and at first, I thought this was a trollbait thread, so I almost didn't open it -- hence the addition to the thread title.


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: InOBU
Date: 11 May 02 - 10:35 PM

Well, I don't know how... instance by instance, I think we must ask our governments to link their aid to Bangladesh to human rights, and increase aid where there are minorities included in the projects. Cheers and thanks, Larry


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: pict
Date: 11 May 02 - 11:11 PM

It's a horrendous crime and as a father of 4 daughters one that I worry about I think that the sentencing for rape is in general far too lenient when you consider the damage that it causes chemical castration on top of stiff custodial sentences suddenly becomes a very attractive option.

As for the subject of honour killings it really does raise the question of whether or not we should require as a prerequisite of immigration into western countries that immigrants from places that have these cultural practices renounce their previous culture and have compulsory education in the culture,language and history of the country they wish to live in,in other words compulsory integration.It sounds harsh and intolerant but how else can we stamp these practices out or show our rejection of such practices should we place sanctions on the countries that tolerate these practices?

Here in Denmark there have been gang rapes of Danish women by Muslim men(last year the Danish police statistics say that 65% of all rapes in Denmark were committed by Muslim immigrants)plus honour killings and declitorisation and defibulation these practices have to be eradicated.


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: Troll
Date: 11 May 02 - 11:12 PM

Larry, good thread. Better song. I'm glad that you can write such songs. It's up to the rest of us to sing them so please include a midi or the tune if you can.

troll


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: Hrothgar
Date: 11 May 02 - 11:18 PM

Are women who are "dishonoured" killed by their menfolk because it's easier and safer than going after the bloke who did it? The bloke has, of course, already indicated that he is inclined towards violence.

Or am I being too cynical again?


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 May 02 - 11:21 PM

It is appalling to me that this shit still happens------everywhere. Not just in "other" countries, but in yours too. Whatever country you live in. Rape has never been about SEX, it has always been about POWER.

Unfortunately, castration or chemical castration won't stop it---if the animal doesn't have a penis to rape with he will find something else---lots worse.

Whatever it takes to stop it------maybe just this one is worth that. Several years ago I read a book (Not Without My Daughter/s?) that detailed the trials and troubles of an American woman who married an Iranian man. Horrible stuff. Honor killings for speaking to American men, major clitorectomies............

Thank you for the song, Larry. Sing it as often as possible.


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 02 - 12:26 AM

How many - of the exact same people posting above have implied in previous threads?????Let us return to the pagan rituals of the primitives for they understood the truth and were closer to the true purity of mother-nature than modern man!

BULL- SSSHHHH!!!!


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: Sorcha
Date: 12 May 02 - 12:49 AM

O for pity's sake. Just shut up, GUEST. You have no idea what you are talking about. Idiots, everywhere you go, idiots. Paganism has not a damned thing to do with rape.


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: Cappuccino
Date: 12 May 02 - 03:53 AM

Quite right, Sorcha. In both of your posts. Permit me to ally myself with your opinions.

- ian B


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: InOBU
Date: 12 May 02 - 06:28 AM

The subject of "honor killings" has come into the discussion, which is good, one reason I leave open quesitons in most of my songs about human rights, is to get people thinking, for example about the obligation of the Bangladeshi minority community to embrase the female victems of the crimes directed at both men and women in their nation. I must say, however, I have been asking other lawyers, and have not yet heard that the Bangladeshi Hindus have committed honor killings in response to rape by Moslem gangs, rather honor killing in Bangladesh apears, to my initial inquiries (among non-Bangladeshis) to be done by the same fundamentalist communities committing the crimes of rape. I will keep you all posted...

As to our guest... I have a wee song to the tune of Dowey Dens of Yarrow, dedicated to all the anonymous trolls on Mudcat...

While posting on the mudcat site,
so many a tune did borrow,
my songs inflamed, many a fascist clan
and one wee guest named Yarrow

This Yarrow she did post with spite
and many a phrase so callow
Invective she hurled with all her might
did this one wee guest named Yarrow

But words bereft of mighty wit
where met with naught but sorrow
for one who posts with no real point
this one wee guest named Yarrow

So poets all, raise up yer glass
We'll toast and sing till it be morrow
And when the words flow fast and free
We'll have a dram for Yarrow

Cheers Larry


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: alanabit
Date: 12 May 02 - 06:52 AM

Damned right that paganism has nothing to do with rape. Some of the Celtic cultures gave equal rights to women and spurned capital punishment. Backward eh? Pagan cultures have also embraced pacifism. The humanitarianism or otherwise of a society has nothing to do with its age. Larry is asking an important question here though. Why is there this hideous attitude that the victim is shamed by the crime? We know that Bille Holliday was sent to reform school for being a rape victim. In the Shakespeare play, Titus Andronicus kills his daughter Lavinia because he feels she has been dishonoured by rape.(Don't we really feel for his hurt pride...) The attitude has emerged in cultures old and new.


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: Peg
Date: 12 May 02 - 09:16 AM

I don't agree that rape is only about power and not about sex. If that were true, why would forcible sexual intercourse or other sexual acts be a part of it? Why would not the attackers merely beat up the woman instead of abuse her sexually, if it were only about "power?"

It seems to me that rape is, indeed, about sex. Which makes it even more horrible if you ask me.

I find the song's lyrics a bit unsubtle and manipulative for my tastes (just my personal taste in songs, doesn't mean it's a bad song), but certainly the topic is an important one to be communicated.


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: 53
Date: 12 May 02 - 10:36 AM

Very good poem.


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: MAG
Date: 12 May 02 - 11:30 AM

Rape attitudes -- and laws -- blame the victim because they are based on property laws. The husband or father has damaged property. Yes, it's dreck, but there it is. Rooting out these attitudes and bringing women into full equality is the first step.

I'm afraid that rape really is about power and control; this is a particular psychopathy where these ones get off on causing terror. .they feed their own interior black holes by creating them in others. The link to male aggression is pretty clear. The better we understand our species with all our wrinkles, our hard-wiring, the better we can address this shite.

Thanks for the song, Larry.


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: CapriUni
Date: 12 May 02 - 01:26 PM

To be fair to GUEST, I think some may have misread her/his post. I don't think s/he was saying that Paganism has any particularly strong link to rape.

. . . . .

But s/he is accusing other posters here of saying that Christianity, Islam, and Judiasm of having a stronger link to rape than Paganism... and by her/his HTML language (the cyber version of body language), I'd say that the post above was meant as flamebait.

Let me charge up my fire extinguisher and try to give a balanced response to the issue, and not the post (kinda hard to do when the subject combines the three topics to avoid if you do not want a fight: Sex, religion, and politics -- but I'll give it my best shot).

1) No doubt, the ancient Pagans did commit rape, especially during wartime. But the ancient Pagans are no more.

2) No doubt, there are individual Neo-Pagans out there who are rapists, especially those who were drawn to the religion(s) for their general attitude of "sex is okay". But as many Neo-Pagan religions consider the feminine principle as at least equally divine as the male, the subjagation of women is not religiously sanctioned.

3) It is true that not all Jews, Christians, and Muslims consider the subjagation of women to be religiously sanctioned. But many of the self-proclaimed "Fundamentalists" do.* And many Islamic nations are theocracies, where the Fundalmentalist clerics are in charge of crafting and enforcing the laws that affect the fate of their women citizens.

*4) I suspect that all "Fundamentalist" rerligions, of whatever stripe, are vulnerable to pigeon-holing people into rigid gender and life roles because of their emphasis on keeping to ancient traditions and rules at all cost. This may happen with some Neo-Pagan religions in the future, but as we've only been around for about 2 generations, this movement hasn't yet developed.

In short, religion is only one factor among many that contributes to a person's and culture's attitude toward rape. And without taking all the factors into account, is a non sequitor.

There!

Was that pretty much balanced?


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 May 02 - 03:53 PM

"unsubtle and manipulative" - I'd say you've got to be pretty subtle to be effectvely manipulative.

There's always a dilemma being two ways of telling a story. One is just presenting the facts, and leaving it to the listener/reader to make up their own minds, and the other is making a direct statement and implicitly challenging the listener to agree.

I think putting the last verse at the end instead at the start might be worth trying with this song, so that it sums up the situation after we've been taken through it.


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: Peg
Date: 12 May 02 - 05:04 PM

McGrath; I think that is what I mean by manipulative; because the lyrics are so emotionally straightforward as you say, it does seem to be saying one must agree with this sentiment, and since it is such a tragic story, how can one refute it? But I tend to prefer songs that make me think a bit more, and cause me to be more reflective...also that say things perhaps more poetically or abstractly. Again, just a personal preference.


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 May 02 - 05:40 PM

So the challenging approach really belongs in situations where the listener might be expected to be a bit undecided, or even inclined to be on the other side?


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: InOBU
Date: 12 May 02 - 06:39 PM

Peg:
Thousands of women from the age of 8 to 80 are being raped in Bangladesh. Respectfuly... is this a time to be any more subtle than I have been? In the face of this obsenity I think we should be crying bloody murder to the world that is ignoring this crime.
Larry


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: Genie
Date: 12 May 02 - 09:43 PM

InOBU,
Try 2 to at least 90 [unfortunately].

Peg, SOME rapes [e.g., date rape] may be partially sexually motivated, but in many cases (e.g., the rape of the frail elderly or the rape of the enemy male's women [read: property] in wartime, and rape via objects [the toilet plunger that cops used on Abner Luima], etc.), it's hard to see how sex is a major motive, if it is a motive at all. Seems to me we've got a vicious cycle. The more a society regards females as chattel with chastity their cardinal value (hence goods to be rendered worthless if they are sexually violated), the more motive there is for a male to violate his enemy's women sexually--in addition to or instead of just maiming or killing them--to really 'stick it' to that male enemy.

Genie


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: InOBU
Date: 13 May 02 - 05:36 AM

Hi Genie:
I have to agree with you about violence. I had occation to pose a question to Judge Posner, the founder of the Chicago School, Ecconomic Theory of Law, when he proposed, in a rather idiodic book, that rape was a crime of sexual market place... that his reflection that the instance of rape in Japan proves we who feel rape is a crime of violence are wrong.
He stated that Japan has a mesogenist culture and a low instance of rape, proving that it is a crime of sexual market place, as he called it. I pointed out that there are cultural differences which create a different kind of alianation in Japan, so violent crime in general was less common than in other industrial societies, yet one can find a corelation between the instance of violent crime and rape, and in the communities which had more violent crime in Japan, you have more rape.
This is not to be arguementative about the issue, and not to desexualize the crime, I understand Peg to mean that the sexual objectification aspect adds an aspect of harm to the crime which goes beyond the harm of other assaults, in that it robs a part of sexual identity and replaces it with a sexualized objectified identity.
As to the range of ages of those harmed in Bangladesh, I am not surprised, the more I work on this issue, the worse it turns out to be, the more I don't understand how the State Department can say this is not an instance of genocide, but sporatic and unpolitically connected as they clame in the country reports. Please demand of your governments involvement in helping the people of Bandladesh. They are far away, but they are humans like you.
Larry


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: Peg
Date: 13 May 02 - 09:45 AM

I certainly do not dispute the facts here and obviously political activism is meant to help spread awareness of atrocities. My comments were not in any way denying the tragedy of this situation (in fact I mentioned it myself). But I have never thought song-writing should be a platform for propaganda of any kind (I am not calling this song propaganda!), and similarly I think that real obvious, heavy-handed lyrics are not artful, but hard to listen to. I think songs can portray anger, outrage and horror; but there is a way to do it so that listeners don't feel lectured to. Political song lyrics that are most effective, in my opinion, function in terms of imagery and metaphor and narrative...the minute I hear the word "fundamentalism" in a song (unless it is meant humorously) I am very turned off.

I admire your aim in writing this song; I just find it unsubtle, as I said. Plenty of people in this thread love your song, though...my opinion is in the minority, at least of those who chose to post their opinions publicly.


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: InOBU
Date: 13 May 02 - 10:07 AM

The fact is that a fundimentalist coup overthrough the socialist government of Bangladesh and has been allowing attrosities to be caried out in a genocidal program. As to not feeling that propaganda or politics belongs in music, than, perhaps folk music is not your cup of tea. Folk music has been about the people's concerns for ever, that is what it is... what more can I say? Leave politics to the news services, and guess whose point of view will be put forward, certainly not the marginalised the unempowered, the folk. Cheers Larry


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: SharonA
Date: 13 May 02 - 10:11 AM

Peg sez, "I don't agree that rape is only about power and not about sex." My impression is that rape is more about power than sex because it's sex by force – sex against the will of one of the participants.

But I agree with Peg that rape isn't only about power. It's also about the sexual gratification of the one(s) doing the overpowering. As Larry says, "the sexual objectification aspect adds an aspect of harm to the crime which goes beyond the harm of other assaults, in that it robs a part of [human] sexual identity and replaces it with a sexualized objectified identity."

I'm curious: in those cultures where "honor killing" is practiced, are raped (sodomized) boys also killed? I would suspect not, if the aim of "honor killing" is to subjugate women, not victims of rape.

To answer the question Larry posed at the end of his song, the rapist in the Bangladeshi Hindu culture does not hide his face because his culture tells him he doesn't have to. I'm not sure how one convinces people from other cultures that human rights as we interpret them are universal rights (without being viewed by those other cultures as infidels). Certainly it will take time... after all, it has taken several centuries for us to acknowledge that women have rights (and that people of all races have rights), and even now we meet resistance to those concepts within our own culture. We just have to be resolved to fighting that battle forever, and we have to keep speaking out and singing out until we're heard.


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: InOBU
Date: 13 May 02 - 10:38 AM

Hi Sharon: As far as I know from my work, the rapists in Bangladesh are Moslem, and there is not a practice among the Hindhu populaiton there of "honor killing". The open question posed though, is where are the men of the Hindu community who would bring honor to this by loving the victem enough to share the pain in the aftermath of rape. That is the question posed in the song, after the clear condemnation of 1. the fundimentalist government which condones rape of minorities as a tool of forced migration, 2. condemnation of the rapist being tolerated among his people (moslems) 3. condemnaiton of the world which expresses the notion, don't tell me about this, I don't want to deel with it - it is too far away for me to care.
Thanks for the caring comments, Larry


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: GUEST,Crazy Eddie
Date: 13 May 02 - 11:06 AM

Larry
"Don't talk to me about the meaning of life,
Don't sing your songs, that cut like a knife,
I don't want to hear, I don't want to hear it at all"
Eric Bogle

Unfortunately it is a common reaction, and maybe a natural one.


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: Peg
Date: 13 May 02 - 11:29 AM

well I typed out a response but it got erased!

Larry, you need to read my post more carefully, as you are twisting my words. I never said politics have no place in music. And just because I find the particular style of these lyrics ineffective, doesn't mean I disapprove of the message. (In fact I have said the opposite). It certainly doesn't mean I need a lecture on the atrocities of the world, or on folk music. To assume I must not know or care enough about the rape of Bangldeshi girls simply because I don't praise these lyrics is a bit essentialist.

I like folk music fine. I don't mind songs about political issues and in fact like them a lot. The lyrics of Bob Dylan, Peggy Seeger, Geoff Bartley, Billy Bragg, Michelle Shocked, John Gorka, just to name a few, to me are artful and thoughtful and subtle. This is the type of lyric I prefer. Some people seem to like lyrics that are more heavy-handed. It's just a matter of personal preference. But I find songs more moving and affecting when I have to engage my own brain and heart to interpret the message, rather than have it spelled out blatantly.

If your aim is to spread awareness about this issue, then my personal opinion about the form or style of these lyrics shouldn't really matter, should it?


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: Alice
Date: 13 May 02 - 11:38 AM

Larry, I understand your concern about Bangladesh, but all over the world there are women and children (and some men) raped every minute that goes by. Whether it is political or some other reason, my outrage is for the entire problem on a global scale, for all reasons that rape, murder, coercion, and violence is committed.

You are correct in that the Moslem population rather than the Hindu has a greater prevalence of honor killings. The entire subject of rape, murder and abuse of women just because they are female is a larger issue than political Moslem on Hindu rape, although I understand that you are currently focussed on that. Your question regarding the lack of support of rape victims, though, can be answered by saying that females and the lower castes need better human rights in the Hindu population, too. Hindu culture's treatment of women. quote "... members of the higher castes, and Brahmans in particular, regard it as their God-given right to rape low-born women, particularly Untouchables. The old sacred books containing the laws of Brahmanism, indeed, provide explicit rituals with which upper-caste men can purify themselves after sexual contact with Untouchables." end quote

A link from the UN with more information, on the Muslim topic, On the order of clerics, an 18-year-old woman was flogged to death in Batsail, Bangladesh, for "immoral" behaviour, according to the report. In Egypt, a father paraded his daughter's severed head through the streets shouting, "I avenged my honour."

The report says that "honour" killings tend to be more prevalent in, but are not limited to, countries with a majority Muslim population. It adds, however, that Islamic leaders have condemned the practice and say it has no religious basis.


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: Alice
Date: 13 May 02 - 11:53 AM

A bit more on the de-valueing of females in Hindu culture, from the link in my previous message.

Countless newborn daughters are still killed immediately after birth, especially in the states of Rajasthan, Bihar and Tamil Nadu. In the villages of Bihar, a midwife is paid 10 rupees for delivering a boy, five for a daughter - and 100 rupees if she immediately kills the female infant at the family's orders. Since it has become possible to determine the sex of a fetus in utero, tens of thousands of female fetuses are aborted every year. The laws forbidding this are likewise neither obeyed nor enforced.
...

The Supreme Court has repeatedly admonished lower courts to consider, in cases of rape, that in India's strongly patriarchal society, which places a high value on a woman's chastity and ostracizes raped women, a woman or girl would not bring such charges lightly and thereby risk her reputation and her chances of marriage." end quote

The strong Hindu patriarchy as described above applies to Hindu culture anywhere in the world, including Bangladesh. The plight of women and untouchables is degrading.

From the age of 10 to 18 I sponsored a young girl in southern India who would not have had an education without my monthly donation for her welfare. Her family was living at the lowest level because of their status in the culture, her father a TB patient and unable to work. She was educated, sent me letters and pictures, growing into a young woman who was literate and skilled as a seamstress. Without the education provided by a US organization called Compassion International, her fate would have been bleak.

Alice


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 May 02 - 12:35 PM

And think about the women who are sewn shut to prevent this... is that cure worse than the disease?


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: InOBU
Date: 13 May 02 - 12:38 PM

Thanks Alice:
Indeed, my concerns are universal as well, the song, however, comes out of my work with the population of Bangladesh. As a writer of historical ballads, I generally (vertually always) write from personal involvement in events, where I know the community, rather than from, say news accounts. But, I am glad that the song has sparked interest and discussion of the wider issue.
All the best
Larry


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 13 May 02 - 12:44 PM

I have to agree with Peg on this, and I admire her for expressing herself as well as she has in the face of some (deliberate?) twisting of her words. It is to Larry's credit that he wrote this song, and I certainly agree with the sentiment behind it; the way that rape is institutionalized, condoned, and in fact celebrated in so many cultures around the world is horrifying and heart-breaking. But Peg's point was not about the message; it was about the way the message was conveyed. And I think she is right that a more artfully constructed, nuanced song might have a greater impact. It involves the audience's intellect and emotions in the communication process to a greater degree than a song which simply seeks to convey a black-and-white message.

I also agree that rape is about both violence and sex; I don't understand why people feel that this has to be an either/or question. At one time it was useful to remind people that rape was a violent crime, but I would hope that most of us recognize that at this stage, and can also acknowledge the sexual aspect. As Peg said, the sexual element makes it a more horrific crime.

I sometimes think it would be nice if people weren't quite so quick to jump on a soap box every time someone expresses an opinion that goes beyond the orthodoxy. In my view, Peg's comments on this thread contributed more to the discussion than a simple cheerleading-type response would have.


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 13 May 02 - 01:32 PM

Speaking only about the singability of the song (I think it is obviously a very crucial topic) I would be inclined to take the first 2 verses, the last 2 verses, and modify the verse about the fundamentalism. I would take that line out, and put something else in, perhaps a version of the waterwheel line. Then I think you have a very singable and very powerful song. I think as is it is a bit long and there are some verses that aren't as strong..All this is my personal opinion for how I would be inclined to take it and run with it. It is certainly a tragic circumstance. mg


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 May 02 - 02:10 PM

An odd thread. Mostly threads are either discussion threads, or about music/or songs and technique - but this one involves an argument about the issues involved and about the technique, and whether it is appropriate to the issues.

It seems to me that there are really two intertwined narratives here. One is the account by the raped girl of her situation, addressed both to the community of the rapist which is implicated in the act and protects the rapists, and to her own community which deplores the act, but sees her as shamed by it, and is willing to exclude her; and the other is a challenge to outsiders to become aware of this terrible injustice, and to respond to it, rather than shrugging it off as just one of those things.

That's a very complicated set of narratives to get across. The meaning of the rape to each of those three imagined audiences is different. There are several layers of oppression involved. There the rape as genocide, there's the rape in itself as sexual oppression, there's the consequence of teh rape as sexual oppression.

I think it's quite possible in a song to directly address a subject and directly argue a case, passionately and effectively. But I'm not sure it's possible to do it in that way at the same time to more than one imagined audience.

Presenting a story without comment is one way of trying to deal with that difficulty. "Here is what happened - now you've got to decide what to do about it." But at the same time this whole business of untangling the different meanings of rape is somnething that needs exploring. As the arguments in this thread have indicated. And I'm not aware of many songs that have tried to explore them.


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: InOBU
Date: 13 May 02 - 02:30 PM

Hey... it is a true story... history, if the Fundimentalists don't want their name associated with rape, stop condoning it. I just am called to remember Utah Phillips saying, "Look this isn't poetic, it aint how many seas does a white dove sail, it is DUMP THE BOSSES OFF YOUR BACK!" Look folks, there is a time to be poetic and a time to be blunt. CHeers Larry


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 13 May 02 - 03:17 PM

This is more or less what I would sing..mostly I tweaked to get rhythm more standardized, which is important to me, not to others.

I'm a Bangladeshi Hindu girl, I cannot say my name
I cannot show my face to you, I'm forced to flee in shame
I cannot find the words to tell the things they did to me
When the gangs came to my village and robbed my dignity

I cannot __ __speak the words my horror to relate
When the women of my village became the target of your hate
With nothing but my tattered clothes I have been forced to flee
For after this my public shame, what man would marry me

My sisters' bodies have become the targets of your war
And our mothers' and our grandmothers for countless years before
Why is it our dishonor, why is it our disgrace
Why is it not the rapist who is forced to hide his face

How my story ends I cannot say, what's ahead I cannot see
My tears would turn a waterwheel no one will shelter me
In the ruins of my land and life, I only cry in vain
Why must I bear the shame alone, who will share my pain

One question more I'll put to you before I flee my land
One question more I'll ask you I'm too young to understand
One question more I must demand, before I turn to go,
The answer to this question, no girl should ever know


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: Peg
Date: 13 May 02 - 03:33 PM

Coincidence?

I just received an email entitled "Rape!!" with this in the message body:

Rape Sex!!!

CLICK HERE to access thousands of uncensored photos and videos right now!

If you wish to unsubscribe, click here!

The sender's email address is: mwstd@hotmail.ru

I find it hard to believe such a thing is unrelated to this thread, or maybe I am just paranoid. I'd hate to think someone who lurks on Mudcat would do something so juvenile and distasteful as send rape images to a woman, after digging up her email on the internet...


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 May 02 - 06:54 PM

Myself I think those tweakings work well mg. I'll be interested to hear what Larry thinks of them. Songs always come out with rough edges at first, and I notice from what Larry wrote that "This song came to me this morning", which indicates a first draft.

I notice you ended it with an unspoken question - I wondered if that was intentional, it might be rather effective, as a way of leading straight into a discussion.

I've been wondering if it's to an existing tune, or a new one Larry has made up for the occasion. Or has it got a tune as yet?

And Peg, that's a horrible thing to have happened. But I don't think you should assume it's some lurker round the Mudcat. (Though it always could be, we've our share of nasties.) I know I tend to delete that kind of stuff without opening or registering what it's about, but I can imagine that if I'd been writing about something like this on the Cat, I'd be that bit more likely to have a relevant word like that jump out and have me notice it.


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 13 May 02 - 09:57 PM

The tune that has been going through my head with this (and I usually don't play this game as I really like songs to have their own tunes) is the Banks of Newfoundland..the Irish Rovers version...there are many songs with that name..there is an addiitional verse that goes ..there was a female passenger Bridget Murphy was her name. To me she promised marriage to her I did the same. She tore her flannel petticoats to make mittens for my hands. For she would not let her true love freeze on the Banks of Newfoundland. I already am singing this song....it comes to me that her name is Derva...correct me if I am wrong Larry..I think I would add one little line at the end..I am a Bagledeshi girl and Derva is my name....

mg


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: InOBU
Date: 14 May 02 - 02:22 PM

Hi mg - email me at InOBU@aol.com, a phone number, I'll give ya a call, I'd be interested in hearing the tune you are using. I am using one which I think was writen by a bloke named Hernan...
As to the content controversy... It is far more easy to break the mirror than to change the immage... and so most of the world is filled with complacent people led by terrorists.
Cheers - glad to see the Mcat back, Larry


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: InOBU
Date: 14 May 02 - 03:09 PM

Update... I just did a very rare old thing for me... I wrote a new tune rather than taking a traditional one, of course, I hope I wrote a new tune, there are so many floating around the old block of wood, who knows... Larry


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 May 02 - 04:03 PM

Looking forward to hearing it some time.

Most of the time I find that, sooner or later, I recognise the tunes I put to songs as coming from somewhere else. But they mostly seem to have picked up a few changes in the process of travelling through my sub-consciousness and past my vocal chords. That tends to mean I recognise where the family they come from, but others might not. Or a from a couple of others mixing together.


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 May 02 - 04:34 PM

I confess-- didn't read all of the thread. I usually do.... this one is just hard to fully read, and I salute all of you that did/do/will.

But a point about biology, with which we all struggle, in case it has not been made. The rejection of a raped woman as marriageworthy has to do with the biological (species survival) imperative for a male to establish his own genetic line... this also can lead to the murder of stepchildren by male partners... yes there are social factors at work there but these are thin covers or justifications of a basic animal instinct that's hard sometimes to face squarely.

Of course we, being humans, are charged with rising above our biology, and raising our expectations of others above our perception of their biology. But it's in there. Sometimes it helps to stay aware of that, when trying to figure this awful stuff out.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: InOBU
Date: 15 May 02 - 04:10 PM

Well... the old tune, Mary Courtney noticed, bears a strong resemblenace to Skibbereen, but a wee tad different, sure enough, I heard her sing Skib a few nights back... must be rattling round in my head! Well, I have to pass on this comment from a Bangladeshi site... about the new song...
> POTENT. > Who is this writer? If she is not a Bangalee -- what > a compassion!! If she is a Bangalee I cry with her. > "Bicharer baanee nirobe nibvrite kande'. > > --- Shonar Bangla

Her name, is the only bit of Bangali I can translate for you, it means Golden Bangladesh.
Welcome back everyone, Larry


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: InOBU
Date: 16 May 02 - 06:47 AM

For those looking forward to hearing the song, I am hoping to record it soon, maybe next week. My old band mate, Kamala Shankaram and old pal Mary Courtney will sing it, and I am still waiting to hear back from a third singer to be announced. I am also lining up a few Bangaladeshi musicians... so CDs will be available of the song soon to benifit Bangladeshi relief... I will keep you all posted. Cheers Larry


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: pict
Date: 16 May 02 - 07:04 AM

I got that rape sex email also but as usual I blocked the sender and deleted it as I do with all the other spam.It is depressing how depravity flourishes when nourished by greed.


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: InOBU
Date: 16 May 02 - 03:13 PM

Depravity nourished by greed! Indeed! Funny, I am working on a second Bangladeshi song, after coming to the historical wonder that this very poor nation used to be one of the wealthiest in the world. It seems they produced a fine cotton, now extinct. That cotton was so fine that there is one of the few examples of Bangladeshi muslin left today, a turban, thirty foot by five, which can be folded into a match box... Well it seems the British placed restrictions on the sales of that product, in order that it not compete with British textiles, finaly completing the ruin of the Bangladeshi textile trade by insisting on the raising of jute instead of cotton, not allowing the finished rope even, to be woven in Bangladesh, then after setting Hindhu and Moslem against each other, divided the land... twice. Now, the Bangladeshi strain of cotton is completly extinct... greed leading to depravity at the cost of millions of lives... new song to be posted soon...
All the best, Larry


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: InOBU
Date: 17 May 02 - 10:13 AM

In order to explain in part, why I feel it appropriate to name the fundimentalists in the song, in the same way as I name the hydro-power company's in Yvette's song, this is just one of many hundreds of storries I have been confronted with in my work these days. WARNING... it is very blunt, so if you may be disturbed by it, please don't read it... but if being disturbed by prompts you to ask your government to link aid to human rights treatment, please do read it...
22 Hindu Women Raped, Forced to Walk Naked In Public
Report By Mayer Dak News Services Patuakhali, Bangladesh
Reporters could not control their tears while listening to the Hindu women who have become victims of rape and torture in Patuakhali district of Bangladesh. On October 3, 2001, Right wing Muslim fundamentalists armed with lethal weapons attacked Hindu residents during the dark of night in Kachipara village of Patuakhali district. The unarmed people were unable to resist the Muslim fanatics. Women were raped throughout the night and made to walk nude in the market the next morning. The fanatics also urinated in their mouths when these defenceless women, being thirsty were begging for water. Barbarism, nepotism, arson and looting are prevalent everywhere and has reached fearsome proportions.
An elderly Muslim gentelman remarked, ''Curse and destruction will soon befall on this country. Allah will not forgive the Kafers (unholy miscreants) who are torturing the Hindu women and creating such wide spread violence.''
Larry


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: Genie
Date: 18 May 02 - 12:18 AM

Susan, Thanks for pointing out the "biological imperative" aspect. Still, it's hard to separate the cultural-economic basis from the biological one.

Some societies, for instance, will allow--even encourage--a WIDOW to remarry, but not a raped woman. How can the biological argument can't explain that?

Also, a woman is not NECESSARILY ostracized as much for fornication (voluntary) as for being raped (although she often may be).

And not all animals, or all human societies, shun the offspring of males other than the husband, patriarch, alpha male, etc.

Genie


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: InOBU
Date: 18 May 02 - 09:12 AM

Hi Genie... I think the artical posted above your comment supports this, this is an act of violent political driven crime, and I hope the minority communities develope a new cultural mechanism for reintroducing the victems into thier community, but it is a very hard expectation in the face of the accompaning instances of murder and village burning. I can only hope our world community steps up to the need. Cheers Larry


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: Penny S.
Date: 19 May 02 - 06:35 AM

I think that some of the refusal to see rape victims as marryable (not the same as marriagable) goes back to odd ideas about breeding - in animals as well. There was an idea that features could be inherited from the rapist, even some time after the event, years, maybe. Dog breeders would regard a bitch which had been impregnated by a mongrel as spoiled for all future breeding. So, the child of a woman who had been raped might well not be the child of the husband, who would then be passing on his inheritance to a cuckoo. Stupid, but the attitude could be carried on even when people know better.

In war, these attitudes, linked with rapes by invaders, could lead to the loss of future generations of the invaded nation, as the pool of potential mothers would be diminished.

I find the arguments that rape is mainly about sex deeply disturbing. If it is, then sex is not what I have thought it to be, and men are things which should not be allowed to reproduce. We are supposed to be homo sapiens, with our selves in our heads, aren't we?

Penny


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: InOBU
Date: 19 May 02 - 05:50 PM

I sang this at a gathering of Bangladeshi Hindhus last night, and heard some very uplifting news, which I will post more about soon. Recently a young woman has come forth very publicly, and is seen as a real heroine of this community, for throwing off the anonimity and speaking out about what was done to her. The song is being forwarded to her, and I was thinking of another verse, but I think it takes another song, as this is really a new chapter. What is uplifting is the way everyone at the gathering spoke of the honor she brings to the subject by being public about what was done to her.
Larry


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 May 02 - 12:18 AM

That is good to hear, Larry. Thanks for doing such good work.

My sisters' best friend went to an exclusive college and was raped. Her parents brought her home and let her know that no one would want to marry her because of the rape; that she'd have to settle for whomever would have her. They were embarrassed, white, Christian and this happened in the mid 60's. Unfortunately, she was an only child, quite sheltered before the rape. She believed her parents and did settle for a man who, imo, has abused and debased her all of their 20 some years of married life. It happenes every day, all over the world and it IS about men humiliating and destroying not only women's lives, but the lives of their families, esp. that of any men who they may be associated with...their "enemy" as someone said before in this thread. And, that is part of the biological thing, too, taken to the extreme. Kind of the ultimate "stickin' it to the man" in a very personal way.


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: Genie
Date: 21 May 02 - 02:20 AM

Penny, you said "I find the arguments that rape is mainly about sex deeply disturbing. " I don't know too many folks who argue that it is PRIMARILY about sex. It's pretty obvious that it's nearly an act of domination (power demonstration) and nearly always of hostility.

Don't forget, though, that there are people whose sexual urges are intricately bound up with the need to dominate or be dominated. The fact that BD/SM may be considered a perversion does not negate the fact that it is an aspect of the sexuality of those people.

Raping a woman to get back at your enemy via his mother, daughter, sister, etc., though, does not seem to have sexual fulfillment, even in its less refined manifestation, as its primary driver.

Penny


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: InOBU
Date: 24 May 02 - 08:28 AM

As promiced... here is the story of Purnima, Sheel. When I sang the song at a Bangladeshi gathering, everyone said - right off that it should be dedicated to Purnima, and as I read the story, it is odd that there are things she said, that I already put in the song, for example, how can I show my face to you?
Larry Report from SAMBAD, Dhaka, Karthik 15 (bengali calender), Tuesday, Oct 30, 2001:
20 October, 2001. A local hotel in the city. A press conference has been arranged by the Ghatak-Dalal-Nirmul Committee. Silence is prevailing among all the attendees. Purnima and her mother Basana Rani of Deula village of Ullapara, Sirajganj are also there, looking towards some undefined territory. Purnima is yet to be matured. Signs of lovely childhood still exits on her face. However, this innocent girl has been abducted and gang raped by barbaric BNP activists. They physically assaulted her mother while she tried to save her daughter. All became speechless on that day's press conference. "How shall I show my face to others", lamented Purnima covering her face from the journalist's camera. None was able to say anything but to shed tear. "Ma (Mother), we shall not worship Durga this year, we shall worship you instead" said engineer Sadhan Das giving his saved money for the Durga Puja to this girl. "The courage that you have shown should made all of us worship you" he added.
Rape, Torture and Minority Women: Only Purnima, Basanti of Satkhira or Lakshmi of Daganbhunga is not the only victim of such atrocities, numerous women of minority community have become victims. BNP, Jamayat-Shibir gang and Islamic fundamentalist groups have started such inhuman activities after the country's general poll. Support from the government and downright falsehood of the home minister to support the perpetrators are adding momentum to these outrages incidents. They are raping girls in front of the mother, burning the houses, looting the households. These perpetrators are intruding the minority properties in villages after villages and making them homeless. Shops, business places, livestock, everything is looted. They are forcibly taking signatures on legal documents of homesteads and killing anyone protesting their brutal acts. To fulfill their perverted sexual desire they are molesting women starting from minors to seniors. As if these homicidal animals are playing the final part of the defeated game of 1971 and destroying the harmony and creating a bloody clash thereby.
Few Snap Shots of Numerous Atrocities:
ONE: Nahata village of Sripur Upazilla in Magura District. Known terrorists attacked on ten minority families suddenly. They burnt houses, looted households and tortured the family members. Then they took away one college going and two school going girls and gang raped them in an adjacent house.
TWO: The wife, daughter and sister of Pabitra Kumar Mistri, living in Bazar-Char, an outskirt of Barishal town could not manage to escape from these fierce animals. Pabitra kumar trades on Hogla Pata. Fearing attacks from the BNP activists, he sent his daughter to a relative's house in the town. One day local terrorist Fazlu abducted Pabitra in a camp. Then they abducted his daughter, breaking the door of the house where she was in and raped his wife & daughter whole night in the same house. The brutality of Fazlu will defame the middle age barbarism.
THREE: A young school student of village East Jeluya, Ullapara, Sirajganj did not also manage to survive from the barbaric attackers. For supporting opposition party Awamy League, local BNP and Chhatradal activists abducted this young girl and took her to a shop in Hatkhola, East Deluya. There they gang raped the girl. Getting a wind of what is going on, nearby people rescued the girl but police did not arrest any perpetrators.


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 07:14 PM

There is nothing so sickening as the crime of rape. The story shocked me. I refer to the story Jim Carroll brought to my attention some time back regarding the rape of an 85 year woman and a young child of 13 in Ireland by the same man. It appeared in the Irish Independant on Friday July 17 2009.

"There was one striking feature about the shocking story of Simon McGinley, who on Wednesday was convicted of raping an 85-year old woman.

It is what wasn't reported -- which is that he is a Traveller. Had he been the victim of an attack, his identity as a Traveller would have been all over the media. But he was not the victim. He was the culprit: and thus the almost overwhelming silence about his background.

But no one conversant with the wilder extremes of Traveller behaviour and who heard about what happened in court the other day would be in any doubt about Simon McGinley's origins. It is almost inconceivable that young children from any other background would have been present, as his were (including one in nappies) to hear how he had brutally raped an 85-year-old woman.

Other details confirm this sense of an entirely different moral order. After the trial, his mother abused the victim's adult children, shouting that they should have put their mother in a home. Then there were protests at the refusal of prison officers to let his children speak to him before he was led away. They even shouted: "You didn't murder anyone. You shouldn't have got 21 years."

He himself declared to the victim's offspring: "Just remember. I never done it." (His semen was found on her bed and her injured genitals.)

Later, his mother, Mary McGinley, burst into song outside the courthouse, with a rendition of 'If Tomorrow Never Comes'. Perhaps the strangest aspect to this case was the presence, as a spectator in court, of the woman who McGinley had raped 12 years ago, when she was 13. She, too, is a Traveller. She had been babysitting for the McGinleys in 1997. While driving her home, McGinley violently attacked and raped her. Discovered by his wife in the course of this rape, he drove off naked and assaulted the girl again. She was thrown naked out the van, in front of her mother and his wife. She and her family were threatened with being "cut" -- he always carried a knife -- and told not to report the rape.

She later became famous as the 'Miss C', who went to England for an abortion. And although he was only 25 at the time, the court heard at his first trial that he had a daughter nearly her age.

It is almost impossible to imagine the details of this case occurring within the non-Travelling community, from the wife finding her naked husband raping the 13-year old babysitter, to a 25-year-old man having a child of nearly 13, to his mother singing 'If Tomorrow Never Comes' outside the courtroom in which he had been imprisoned for raping a woman of 85."


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: Wesley S
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 07:22 PM

"It is almost impossible to imagine the details of this case occurring within the non-Travelling community"


Bluesman - People do bad things. Yes - Some of them are Travelers. Many more are not. If you're trying to say that Travelers are worse than other people - and I suspect that's your point - then just let your bigot flag fly.


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 07:29 PM

Hard to imagine a man could rape a lady of 85 and a child of 13. Two lives ruined. Such a dreadful crime.


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 07:51 PM

One traveller. Out of how many? And how many other rapists are there? When are you going to learn to count, white man?


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 08:01 PM

If you google 'young men raping old women' you'll find more than a few..and they're NOT Travellers.

I agree though, it is an horrific crime, and any man who does this should be severely punished, as should any man who does this to any woman regardless of her age.

I've just put a link in the 'Dale Farm' thread about gangs who are threatening and abusing Gypsy families, and there have been reports of rape there too.

Terrible, *wherever* it happens and *whomsoever* the victim or perpertrator should be.

Thank you.


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 08:03 PM

How could that lady of 85 ever get over such an event ? My God, that young child of 13 must relive it daily. It is hard to comprehend that anyone who read this story with an ounce of compassion in their heart would not wish to make their abhorrence felt.


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 08:09 PM

And if you google, as I said above, I've no doubt, being so full of compassion yourself, you will put the other stories of old ladies on here too, the ones who were raped by men who were NOT travellers.

Thank you.


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 02:04 PM

Sorry to harp on about my Prison Visiting years, but in the Visit Room, the rapists and sex-offenders on Rule 43 (sometimes called Beasts by the other inmates) were marched in escorted by several officers and seated in a separate corner of the Visit Area. 'My' prisoner at one time didn't like what he called 'Pikeys'. (I'm not being racist, it was his word, not mine) But even he said once 'The Pikeys in here have nicked stuff or done GBH. I don't know of any Pikey Beasts'. This chap had been inside in many jails for a total of 16 years, so his view is probably worth something. I might add that travellers were not very numerous in the prisons I visited. Drug offenders, dealers, burglars on drugs etc made up most of the population, and they weren't travellers.


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: Will Fly
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 02:12 PM

It seems rather sickening to me that GUEST,Bluesman now appears to be raking up threads to spread his paranoid opinions about travellers.

I don't think I've ever come across someone so fuelled by blind hatred. It's very sad.


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 02:35 PM

I agree Will Fly, it seems to be almost an obsession, and is indeed very sad. He's entitled to his views of course, but they could perhaps be expressed more moderately. If one were to substitute 'blacks' for 'travellers', his postings would probably be deleted as extreme racism.


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: Crowhugger
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 02:55 PM

What first jumped out at me in the recent posts in this thread: The implication that there is something particularly abhorrent about the rape of someone particularly old or particularly young. That view suggest rape is a sexual act rather than a violent one. I like to think Bluesman never intended to suggest that rape victims in moderate age group are suffering any less than rape victimes of more or less advanced age.

Rape is simply the most intimate assault possible, and it is about utter violence and breach of trust.

The other thing that startled me from among the recent posts was the idea that nowhere but among Travellers would there be such exposure to abject immorality as was done by having children hear the details of rape recounted. Having spent more than a few hours taking calls at a Distress Centre, please, let me assure you: The "nicest-seeming" people are capable of that and much, much more abusive behaviour toward the children and toward everyone else in their families.


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: goatfell
Date: 01 Sep 11 - 01:40 PM

what about men/boys who are raped? ifeel sorry for women and girls but as I say what about men/boys that get raped?


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: Wesley S
Date: 01 Sep 11 - 02:50 PM

What about them? It's the same evil crime if the victim is male or female.


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Sep 11 - 06:25 PM

Crowhugger, yes, I noticed that, too, along with the bigoted views expressed. I was neither very young nor very old when raped and that made not a jot of difference. What was the most abhorrent about it, I think, was I knew my rapist.


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: goatfell
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 11:25 AM

I found out that in Scotland that there is ONE building for men/boys to go for help and yet there are plenty places for women/girls, the reaso Iknow tis was I did a conseling course and was told this by my teacher at collage who is also a conseler as well.
and I was also raped as a young man but who could I turn to for help?


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 09 Mar 12 - 05:31 PM

I see a man was raped in Belfast last night. He was attacked by a group of men and then raped. What is the world coming to.

Here is more on the the story.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-17312549


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: gnu
Date: 09 Mar 12 - 06:30 PM

I expect there is MORE to the story. Hopefully.

Roving bands of male rapists of females is hard enough to fathom and this is more bizzare.


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Mar 12 - 08:44 PM

I missed this the first time around.

I am not sure I wanted to read it this time (but I'm glad I did!)
The reasons for resurrecting it (if only to slag-off travellers) is a poor one, but it is a very moving song.

I read a couple of suggestions for tunes, but any chance of a 'made-to-fit' ABC?

Never mind Bangladeshi (although that was what prompted the song) this story comes around time & again, in so many conflicts :(

A song to cover the subject (with tune?) is a very worthwhile addition to the Mudcat! Lorcan, I salute you.

Cheers
Nigel


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 05:37 AM

A guy spent five days in prison, lost his job, almost lost his family, had his life threatened all because some stupid little drunken girl he collected in his taxi cried rape. There are too many guys getting blamed on this crime without proof. Police have now dismissed her claim.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-17399550


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 06:07 AM

It may not be as simple as that.

Here is some news from teh time:

http://www.derryjournal.com/news/local/taxi_drive_on_rape_charge_1_3353146

a href="http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/taxi-driver-accused-of-rape-is-a-predator-hearing-told-16">http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/taxi-driver-accused-of-rape-is-a-predator-hearing-told-16

http://www.highlandradio.com/2011/12/19/killygordon-man-charged-with-rape-in-derry-magistrates-court/


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 06:15 AM

Richard, that was when he was charged. All charges were dropped yesterday if you care to read the link. It appears the girls mother used to live with this guy and police and DPP dropped the charges as there was no evidence of a rape and they saw it as an attempt by her to seek revenge on the poor guy.


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Subject: RE: Rape
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 06:53 AM

Yes, I said it was from the time.

Those additional alleged facts come from where?

How relevant do you think that the prior conviction for intimidating a witness and/or the previous charges for sexual assault (also no convictions resulting) might be?

I do not think we have sufficient information to assert that the dropping of the prosecution adequately conveys the whole picture.


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Mudcat time: 29 September 4:50 AM EDT

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