folklore: Phrase:'If I Had My D'ruthers'...origin?

Subject: Phrase:'If I Had My D'ruthers'...origin?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 11 May 02 - 11:32 AM

Without thinking, I used this phrase in a missive to my friend Harvey, and he asked what it meant and where it came from.

My best guess is I picked it up as a kid from Al Kapp's Lil' Abner comic strip, but perhaps it came from something else. I suspect that only 40+ catters might have any ideas on this.

Several expressions that I use at times come directly from Britain's "Goon Show", and even a few from "Mad" magazine, but I'm not sure about "if I had my d'ruthers".....any thoughts?

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Phrase:'If I Had My D'ruthers'...origin?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 11 May 02 - 11:38 AM

Oops, forgot to add...I think it may be a contraction of "I'd rather". The odious (but very talented) Kapp only got called to account for his depictions of Appalachian mountain folk in the late sixties, but by then a lot of his stuff was firmly entrenched in our little noggins.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Phrase:'If I Had My D'ruthers'...origin?
From: Genie
Date: 11 May 02 - 11:43 AM

Well, my mom would tell you it's an old Arkansas expression. No doubt it showed up in a few other southern and midwestern states, as well.

Al Capp's Dogpatch folks did, indeed, use the expression. In fact the musical Lil Abner has a song titled "If I Had My Druthers."

Genie

Subject: RE: BS: Phrase:'If I Had My D'ruthers'...origin?
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 May 02 - 11:45 AM

We used it in southern Kansas too........just a part of the dialect there.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrase:'If I Had My D'ruthers'...origin?
From: Noreen
Date: 11 May 02 - 11:54 AM

Never heard it...

Subject: RE: BS: Phrase:'If I Had My D'ruthers'...origin?
From: Genie
Date: 11 May 02 - 12:07 PM

Yeah, Sorcha, my mom's family lived in Kansas many years, too, so I heard the expression a lot in that state, too. "I'd rather" morphed into "'druther" and then into "if I had my druthers."

Genie

Rick F., Yeah, Al Capp was rather unsavory on a personal level, and I can't say he was a political soulmate, but he was pretty much an equal-opportunity insulter. Did any person or group escape his parody? Politicians, movie stars, corporations, and the average person, etc., certainly did not.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrase:'If I Had My D'ruthers'...origin?
From: Amos
Date: 11 May 02 - 12:10 PM

Well, If ah hed mah druthers...

Gawd what a great expression! Concur on the etymology -- a back formation from "(what) I would rather..." . It's them lazy tongues of Dixie is whut's responsible!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Phrase:'If I Had My D'ruthers'...origin?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 11 May 02 - 01:08 PM

It's in 'To kill a mockingbird', where Atticus Finch is given the sherrif's gun in order to kill a dog suspected of having rabies. Atticus shot it a little above the left eye, and he says 'if I had my druthers I'd've taken a shotgun'.

I've always understood it to mean that given the choice he'd rather have taken......

LTS

And yes GUEST, I may have misquoted, but frankly my dear, I don't give a sh*t!

Subject: RE: BS: Phrase:'If I Had My D'ruthers'...origin?
From: SINSULL
Date: 11 May 02 - 01:18 PM

"and/or others"????

Subject: RE: BS: Phrase:'If I Had My D'ruthers'...origin?
From: fat B****rd
Date: 11 May 02 - 01:19 PM

Kris Kristofferson uses it in "Jesse James"

Subject: RE: BS: Phrase:'If I Had My D'ruthers'...origin?
From: CapriUni
Date: 11 May 02 - 01:31 PM

My mother grew up in New York City, my father in Philladelpia, and they both used the term, so it may not be a strictly Southern thing...

On the other hand, my maternal grandmather was a lady from Lousianna....

Subject: RE: BS: Phrase:'If I Had My D'ruthers'...origin?
From: Deckman
Date: 11 May 02 - 02:38 PM

Rick ... you might find this interesting. "Druthers" was the second song I ever learned. I learned it from Bill Higley (Willi-Wa-Willy). Bill had shared a mike with Haywire Mac in San Francisco in the early days of radio. Haywire wrote this wonderful songs about "My Druthers." I believe I posted it, or part of it, on a thread about Haywire Mac a few months ago. CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Phrase:'If I Had My D'ruthers'...origin?
From: GUEST,Sonja
Date: 11 May 02 - 03:34 PM

Sinsull,
"Druthers" is a corruption of "I'd rather(s}," not "others."

Sonja

Subject: RE: BS: Phrase:'If I Had My D'ruthers'...origin?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 May 02 - 05:27 PM

Druthers was widely used in the west (at least Arizona and Utah east to Texas).
The word was in print by 1875 (Webster's Collegiate). They define it as "free choice," probably as good as any.
The pol-cor assessment of Al Capp characters is off the mark. I have never met anyone from the South who didn't enjoy Lil Abner. My wife (from North Georgia) got most upset when she temporarily lost a dog-eared copy of one of the Lil Abner books. Most of the cartoons are still in print, and will remain so for a long time to come. And here's a tip o' the hat to Barney Google as well! We have mostly lost the vernacular of the 19th and early 20th Century, and are, I think, the poorer for it. Capp's version of the speech of the Ozark-Appalachian area was imaginary in part, but enough is there to give us a feel for the language of the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrase:'If I Had My D'ruthers'...origin?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 11 May 02 - 05:32 PM

I druther not discuss it.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrase:'If I Had My D'ruthers'...origin?
From: NicoleC
Date: 12 May 02 - 12:00 AM

I was always under the impression it was an Appalachian expression, but maybe that's only because my great-grandmother uses it (central WV), all of her kids use it, and the older members of my Dad's side of the family (SW VA) use it, too. I suppose they could have picked it up relatively recently, but they're mostly dyed-in-the-wool mountain folk. Most of their expressions are pretty... unique.

Of course, if it is Appalachian it could have originated practically anywhere and travelled almost anywhere west, north or south. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Phrase:'If I Had My D'ruthers'...origin?
From: Genie
Date: 12 May 02 - 12:24 AM

I seem to recall hearing (reading) this expression used either by Abe Lincoln or Mark Twain, or maybe both. Not sure.

BTW, I think that Lil Abner was still going pretty strong when Al Capp died (and the strip along with him.)

Genie

Subject: RE: BS: Phrase:'If I Had My D'ruthers'...origin?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 12 May 02 - 07:08 PM

druthers n.pl. [contr. and alter. of (I, you, etc)would rather

In phrase: have (one's) druthers [or drathers] to have (one's) preference.

1870 Overland Mo. A man can't always have his 'drathers.

1936 in Botkin Treas. Amer. Folklore 217: Now, Paul knows wildcats, and he's never heard of one that'll come within a hundred yaards of a logger it it has its 'druthers.

1956Algren Wild Side 114 [ref. to ca 1930] You mean if I had my druthers? Why, if I had my druthers, I'd druther eat speckledly gravy

….

….

….

1979N.Y. Post(Dec. 13) 28: Given my druther, I'd have preferred some alternative activity.

Random House Dictionary of American Slang – J.E. Lighter – Volume I – A-G The Only Historical Dictionary of Slang, Spanning Three Hundred Yeaars of Slang Use In America

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: Phrase:'If I Had My D'ruthers'...origin?
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 12 May 02 - 07:17 PM

If I had my druthers
I'd druther have my druthers
Then anything else I know.
While you'd druther hustle
Accumulatin' muscle
I'd druther watch daisies grow.
While they're growin' slow an'
The summer breeze is blowin'
My heart is overflowin' and so.
If I had my druthers
I'd druther have my druthers
Than anything else I know.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrase:'If I Had My D'ruthers'...origin?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 12 May 02 - 07:19 PM

Mary - is this a song? Or is it an original by you?

Subject: RE: BS: Phrase:'If I Had My D'ruthers'...origin?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 May 02 - 07:56 PM

"Nobody said anything about druthers." Mark Twain in Huck Finn
"There ain't any druthers about it." Mark Twain in Tom Sawyer, 1876.
"I'd druther they was devils a dern sight." Mark Twain in Tom Sawyer, 1876.

Definition in Oxford English Dictionary (1987 Supplement and later complete edition): A choice, preference. Dialectical American alteration of I (you, etc.) would rather.
Drather(s) has also been noted.

The word may be much older, and could be sought for in letters and diaries and possibly newspapers. Before Mark Twain, there was little dialectical literature published in USA.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrase:'If I Had My D'ruthers'...origin?
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 May 02 - 08:09 PM

Well, most seem to think it's pretty old but a few think it's prett new. Iffen I had my druthers I'd pick the old 'cause I figger it's been around since Hector was a pup.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Phrase:'If I Had My D'ruthers'...origin?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 May 02 - 08:39 PM

Well. dash my buttons, Catspaw!

Subject: RE: BS: Phrase:'If I Had My D'ruthers'...origin?
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 12 May 02 - 08:50 PM

It's a song. I remembered it as, "If I had my druthers, I'd druther have my druthers, than do any work at all..."

A Google search found the above words here.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrase:'If I Had My D'ruthers'...origin?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 May 02 - 09:08 PM

Might'uv knowed Johnnie Mercer, an old Savannah boy, would write something like that. He wrote more than 1000.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrase:'If I Had My D'ruthers'...origin?
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 12 May 02 - 09:14 PM

***thread creep alert***

Dicho, did you read the book, Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil? Lots of info on Savannah, the Mercer House, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrase:'If I Had My D'ruthers'...origin?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 02 - 09:15 PM

The oldest - AUTHENTICATED - usage in this thread appears to go to Gargoyle.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrase:'If I Had My D'ruthers'...origin?
From: Genie
Date: 12 May 02 - 09:24 PM

Mary, Gargoyle, et. al.,
that's the song referred to above from the musical "Lil Abner." I hadn't realized Johnny Mercer penned the lyrics.

Genie

Subject: RE: BS: Phrase:'If I Had My D'ruthers'...origin?
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 12 May 02 - 09:31 PM

That makes sense, I kept thinking Lil Abner.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrase:'If I Had My D'ruthers'...origin?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 May 02 - 09:39 PM

Yup, Gargoyle and the MO newspaper win- for the time being. Mark Twain second.
Mary, my wife knew some of the people involved in "Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil." One of her professors was the one who helped the major character set up his preservation program. The lady who played piano was well-known throughout Georgia. Phenomenal memory for songs. And of course all the stories about the Lady Chablis of the movie- the actual character playing him-herself. Wonderful character!

Subject: RE: BS: Phrase:'If I Had My D'ruthers'...origin?
From: Giac
Date: 12 May 02 - 10:48 PM

Mmmmmmmm, speckled gravy!

Subject: RE: BS: Phrase:'If I Had My D'ruthers'...origin?
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 12 May 02 - 11:37 PM

G'day Dicho, Gargoyle & Guest ( & Uncle Tom Cobbley and all ...),

Of course, Mark Twain is the earliest citation of the present form druther/s ruther than drather/s!

Regards(les)s,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: BS: Phrase:'If I Had My D'ruthers'...origin?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 May 02 - 01:33 AM

G'Day yerself. Is drathers the preferred word in Australia? "Ruthers" also shows up in the South (USA).
I would guess the words were rather old when Mark Twain put them in writing, since a word has to be in common usage before a teller of tales or a novelist would use them.
Only in the latest edition has the Oxford Dictionary attempted to include the Australian language. It has also made a better effort towards including some of the more difficult parts of the American language.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrase:'If I Had My D'ruthers'...origin?
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 13 May 02 - 02:49 AM

G'day Dicho,

The only form I have ever heard is the one that I use ... usually in a jocular sense, since it is not really a local expression ... 'druthers'. The spelling 'drathers' sounds like some pedant desperately trying to force the expression back towards "Proper English"! Your example of 'ruthers' suggests that the 'u' substituting for 'a' is a genuine local accent of the US south.

I don't know what level of 'Oxford Dictionary' you have. I usually work with their 'concise' (one-volume) dictionaries and, for the last three or four editions, have used The Australian Concise Oxford Dictionary, which emanates from the the Australian National Dictionary Centre.

I also use, for reference purposes The Australian National Dictionary, a 2-volume dictionary on historical principles, in the OED format, published by Oxford in 1988. I think there is a new version just out or about to be published, but I use it mainly for an informed view of the Australian usage of English words in the period on the colonial songs, so I am not desperate to upgrade.

Oxford has gone on to produce a range of these 'national' dictionaries ... I have seen one for New Zealand and another for South Africa. I would invest in one for any area in which I was involved in the use and meaning of words across a period of time. I suspect that English is becoming too complex a subject to deal with in any single publication ... even a 28=volume one!

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: BS: Phrase:'If I Had My D'ruthers'...origin?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 02 - 09:56 AM

ONLY A TRUE SOUTHERNER
------------------------------------------------------- 1) Only a true Southerner knows the difference between a hissie fit and a conniption and that you don't "have" them but "pitch" them.

2) Nobody but a true Southerner knows how many fish, collard greens, turnip greens, peas, beans, etc. make up a mess.

3) A true Southerner can show or point out to you the general direction of "yonder."

4) A true Southerner knows exactly how long "directly" is - as in "Going to town, be back directly."

5) Even true Southern babies know that "Gimme some sugar" is not a request for the white, granular sweet substance that sits in a pretty little bowl in the middle of the table.

6) All true Southerners know exactly when "by and by" is. They might not use the term, but they know the concept well. (Note: and it means NEVER!!)

7) True Southerners know instinctively that the best gesture of solace for a neighbor who's got trouble is a plate of hot fried chicken and a big bowl of cold potato salad. (If the trouble is a real crisis, they also know to add a large banana puddin'.)

8) True Southerners grow up knowing the difference between "right near" and "a right far piece." They know that "just down the road" can be 1 mile or 20.

9) True Southerners both know and understand the differences between a redneck, a good ol' boy, and po' white trash.

10) No true Southerner would ever assume that the car with the flashing turn signal is actually going to make a turn.

11) True Southerners know that "fixin" can be used both as a noun, verb and adverb.

12) A true Southerner knows how to understand Southern: a booger can be a resident of the nose, a descriptive ("That ol' booger!")or something that jumps out at you in the dark and scares you to death.

13) True Southerners make friends standing in lines. We don't do "queues," we do "lines." And when we're in line, we talk to everybody.

14) Put 100 Southerners in a room and half of them will discover they're related, if only by marriage.

15) True Southerners never refer to one person as "ya'll."

16) True Southerners know grits come from corn and how to eat them.

17) Every true Southerner knows tomatoes with eggs, bacon, grits and coffee are perfectly wonderful; that redeye gravy is also a breakfast food; that fried green tomatoes are not breakfast food.

18) When you hear someone say, "Well, I called myself lookin'," you know you're in the presence of a genuine Southerner.

19) Southerners say "sweet tea" and "sweet milk. " Sweet tea indicates the need for sugar and lots of it - we do not like our tea unsweetened; "sweet milk" means you don't want buttermilk.

20) And lastly, a true Southerner knows you don't scream obscenities at little old ladies who drive 30 on the freeway - you say, "Bless her heart" and go your way.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrase:'If I Had My D'ruthers'...origin?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 May 02 - 12:28 PM

Bob, I have the complete Oxford with all the little examples, essays, etc. It is a lot of fun because I like words.
Guest, my wife is from Georgia. Fifty years and I still can't cure her of giving directions like "over yonder" when I am driving and asking where to turn, etc. There must be some secret inflection that tells a southerner whether it means left, right, straight ahead, right near or a far piece.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrase:'If I Had My D'ruthers'...origin?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 May 02 - 12:36 PM

Bob, I forgot to add. I would like a copy of the Australian National Dictionary. I fould a copy for $45US with a NSW dealer and am tempted. Price about right? Wondering about the shipping cost, but I doubt that I would ever find one here.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrase:'If I Had My D'ruthers'...origin?
From: irishajo
Date: 13 May 02 - 12:39 PM

There was (is?) a restaurant called 'Druthers' near Charlestown, Indiana.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrase:'If I Had My D'ruthers'...origin?
From: Genie
Date: 13 May 02 - 11:58 PM

Guest, "True Southerners never refer to one person as "ya'll."

You mean native Texans ain't "true Southerners?" I seem to recall quite a few of 'em at Baylor U doing exactly that.

Genie

Subject: RE: BS: Phrase:'If I Had My D'ruthers'...origin?
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 14 May 02 - 12:00 AM

G'day Dicho,

I paid Aus$90 for my copy ... new, about 1990, when that was about US$70 (... not US$50, as it is currently!) so tha would be a fair price for a clean, used copy.

I seem to remember posting some large books to 'Catters ... maybe about 1½ times the weight of the AND ... and that cost around Aus$17 (~US$9). I would need to weigh the thing and do some calculations ... Wouldn't the book dealer have some idea of the likely postage?

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: BS: Phrase:'If I Had My D'ruthers'...origin?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 May 02 - 01:37 AM

G'Day and thanks, Bob. $9 US or thereabouts ain't bad.
More thread creep- do you have the word "bumpf" or "bumf" there? I first heard it about 1960 when I was on an extended trip with a Canadian with British parents and a New Zealander. They applied it to a sheaf of government regulations. I had never heard it (from the US). I couldn't find it in the Oxford; they added it in the 1987 supplement with a history going back to the 19th C. It's a useful word for government papers full of gobbledegook. Still not in Webster's.
Genie, I have spent a lot of time in Texas (UT) and never heard sweet tea or sweet milk (Guest's list). We did drink gallons of properly made iced tea, well-sugared.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrase:'If I Had My D'ruthers'...origin?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 May 02 - 02:20 PM

Sorry y'all, yonder actually has a definition, it isn't just another word for "over there" - HERE is near the speaker, and can be also far from the listener but doesn't have to; THERE is near the listener but far from the speaker, and YONDER is far from both speaker and listener. So I am here, you are there, and they are yonder.