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BS: Are Americans 'insular'?
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Subject: Are Americans 'insular'? From: GUEST,Keith Dance Date: 13 May 02 - 06:24 AM I know that some of you might consider this an 'anti American' flame, especially because I'm posting as a Guest. It isn't, and I only post as a guest because the sysop here has disabled cookies. Anyway, back to what I'm curious about: As an observer from the UK, I think it would be fair to say that Americans consider themselves the centre of the world. Indeed, this can be seen time and again in posts here. People asking for advice where location matters (i.e. where to find a guitar shop, how to find a map for a certain location etc.) differ. Those from the UK, Australia, wherever, tend to explain where they are. Those from the USA seem to take it as a gien that they live in the USA. Before anyone gets mad, this is simply an observation, not a judgement. So, finally, my question: After the 9/11 atrocities, there was the thought (at least here) that the USA might start to think more globally and not focus so much on itself. Has this happened in any noticable way? Thanks for any thoughts Keith |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: KingBrilliant Date: 13 May 02 - 06:34 AM No No, surely UK is the centre of the world. That's how it seems to me, anyway. :>) KRis |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: DMcG Date: 13 May 02 - 06:48 AM No American thinks they are the centre of the world. The center of the world, maybe! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: pict Date: 13 May 02 - 06:59 AM Why do Americans spell those words differently given that there was a pre existing English spelling it seems like it's simply a conscious effort to be different.It's not a bash I'm simply curious as to why those deliberate changes were made e.g. colour/color etc. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: GUEST Date: 13 May 02 - 07:02 AM Color is simpler than Colour That's why it suits the Americans! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: InOBU Date: 13 May 02 - 07:06 AM Hmmmm.... well, check out the post, "Rape", rather typical of my songs, which tend to be global, and written here in New York... but than again, the sun never sets on the British Empire, God doesn't trust them in the dark! Alternately, The sun never sets on the British Empire... it can't find it anymore... Well, finaly, I agree, it is rediculous for Americans to be insular, where the hell do they think they live, New York ! Yours frateraly, from the belly button of the Universe, THE city God's Country The only place to starve... Still coughing on the grey dust of indifference Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 13 May 02 - 07:09 AM That doesn't explain 'fawcet' and 'tap' then does it! Having visited the US I did find it a little odd at first that the apparant knowledge of Europe in particular was sketchy. But then I realised that my knowledge of American geography, politics etc was equaly vague. I think it's simply a distance thing. My 2 pen'urth anyway. Cheers DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: DMcG Date: 13 May 02 - 07:09 AM Nicely ambigous there, Guest. If this site is to believed, it was very much just to be different - although there was a great interest in the UK at the same time in simplifying the written language. Much later, George Bernard Shaw made the same kind of points, arguing the case that, for example "ghoti" could be pronounced "fish" based on cough, women and nation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: InOBU Date: 13 May 02 - 07:10 AM Hiya guys, please place a question mark before the ! in the sentence, where do they think they are New York... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: InOBU Date: 13 May 02 - 07:18 AM Besides, we have a town here named "Jackass Flats", it is in Nevada, appropriatly near to the nuclear test site at Los Alamos. Should a nation with a town called Jackass Flats, home to guys who build machines which are intended to destroy all life on earth, not have an insular attitude, Fucksake man, how could they get their job done, if they thought globaly!? Go over to Greenham Commons to get the answer to that one boyo! Look, anynation which drills holes in the front of the row boat because they are in the stern, and they want to sink the end with the guy on it they don't like, well hell, didn't we learn that as part of our English commonlaw tradition? I dunnoh, how can I, It is hard to see the rest of the world when you are living on top of the mountain. Or whould ya rather be a duck? woof Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: InOBU Date: 13 May 02 - 07:20 AM On a serrious note, the Birmingham Bomber Cherry goes on trial today... On Birmingham Sunday, a noise shook the ground and people all over the world turned around For no one recalled a more cowardly sound and the choir kept singing of freedom... and do check out my new song on the post titled Rape. and the choir keeps singing of freedom... Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: InOBU Date: 13 May 02 - 07:24 AM American insular? ... hmmmmm... um.... well... ah... (flipping through the dictionary looking for the word insular......) Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: InOBU Date: 13 May 02 - 07:26 AM Americans INSUALR! Well! Look here you Lime eating BRIT! If ya don't like it, stop drinking Coke and Budwiezer! AND STOP WEARING OUR DAMN BASEBALL HATS! YA DON't EVEN PLAY THE GAME Larry being that irony is seldom expected from this side of the puddle, I should point out I am only kidding, do check out me new song.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: InOBU Date: 13 May 02 - 07:28 AM Hey I am having fun... where are the rest of you guys! Where is Spaw when you need him!? Wake up Buba! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: DMcG Date: 13 May 02 - 07:32 AM LOL, InOBU. Or, being British myself, a slight tremble of the upper lip!
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: InOBU Date: 13 May 02 - 07:44 AM Hey DMcG! Can I send you a real British cloth cap! It has a "Made in the USA" lable, which means it was actualy made by an 11 year old kid in Hong Kong, so it really IS or was British... Hmmmmmmmm kinda makes you think, if you don't think so, check out the look on Noah Webster's face, he is either thinking of this, or just ate something REALLY foul! Cheersm'dears, Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: DMcG Date: 13 May 02 - 07:48 AM Time for some music from Alex Glasgow
If you every go to Tyneside, let me give you some advice
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: GUEST Date: 13 May 02 - 07:53 AM As an American, yes I believe many (though not all by any stretch of the imagination) are insular. But having lived both sides the pond, I wouldn't say they are any more or less insular than the British or the Irish. People tend to view the world through the lens of their homeplace first. If you have travelled far and wide, you are likely not very insular at all. If you are deeply rooted to your home and have travelled little, you are likely insular, no matter where in the world you are from. I think what you are really getting at is are Americans as arrogant about their insularity as the British perceive them to be? My answer is, I think British and American arrogance about their nationalisms are pretty equal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: DMcG Date: 13 May 02 - 07:59 AM Welcome to the dialog(ue) Guest. (see, I'm not insular, I'm bilingual) You are right I think. In fact, it can be very much more extreme. When I moved from the North East of England to the South, some people thought I had 'betrayed' them in some obscure way and one person became very aggressive demanding to know what was wrong with the area. Leaving it was clearly equivalent to finding fault with it in his eyes.
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: GUEST Date: 13 May 02 - 08:01 AM Well, there is a lot of animosity towards leaving the homeplace amongst those who never leave, and that is pretty universal I think. In England, Scotland, and Wales you can add to that the resentment over the youth migrating to the larger cities to find work. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: artbrooks Date: 13 May 02 - 08:05 AM Americans, or even that subset of Americans who happen to live in the US, are, by definition, "continental". Guess who that makes "insular"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: DMcG Date: 13 May 02 - 08:18 AM Tricky things, words, aren't they? Now "continental", in the UK, was even more insulting than "insular" not very long ago. It NEVER referred to the States to us, in meant Europe, with all the years of distain only a history like ours can accumulate! Now "continental" usually only means an inferior breakfast! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: artbrooks Date: 13 May 02 - 08:25 AM When "continental" meant "French", to people in the US it meant suave and sophisticated. Or maybe it meant skinny little mustaches and slicked-down hair. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: Mrrzy Date: 13 May 02 - 08:33 AM The Americans are just like the French: they KNOW they have the best country, the best people, the best food, and the best language! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 13 May 02 - 08:46 AM Hi, INOBU! Is New York City insular? I lived there four years and reached the point where it seemed like if the subway didn't go there, it didn't exist. I remember when I first came to New York City in 1960, there was a photo in one of the New York papers that had the caption, "Kennedy visits the Midwest." The photograph was taken in Pennsylvania! For you folks across the sea, Pennsylvania is only two states away... you can drive to Philadelphia in two and a half hours. But, the caption made sense in New York City. the Midwest is as unknown as central Europe. When my wife and I go out to Wisconsin and we tell people we know around here in Connecticut (we live an hour and a half drive from New York City) many of them have no idea where Wisconsin is other than it's out there in the Midwest, somewhere. (it's pretty much in the center of the country and the western border of Wisconsin is bounded by the Mississippi River. Someone made the point that if you haven't traveled a lot, you're bound to be focused on home. That's certainly true. I've seen most of the United States, and when I read about something happening in another part of the country I can relate to it personally. It's much like learning names of people. If I go into a crowd and am introduced to thirty people, I will only remember the names of people I've spoken to for awhile and feel like I've gotten to know.
Are we self-centered? Being human, yes we are. But I don't think that many of us are arrogant about it. There is a "If you can make it there, you can make it anywhere"(from the song New York, New York) attitude in some New Yorkers that is exageratedly self-centered, but I wouldn't even characterize "New Yorkers" as being arrogant. Maybe Mets fans.. :-)
A couple of years ago, my wife and I went to Ghana and the Ivory Coast. When you go out to fairly remote villages, all the kids want anything "American." They'd trade you something that took them hours to make for a cheap t-shirt if it had anything on it that said it was from America. I was wearing a baseball cap, and I think I could have traded it for a sculpture that would go for $100 dollars here. One kid wanted it really badly, so I just took it off my head and gave it to him.
There's a difference being self-centered and being arrogant. I'd say that most people everywhere are focused on their daily life, and don't think a whole lot about people and places they don't know. I feel as bewildered about places in Europe as many Europeans might feel about where places are in the United States, because other than having gone to Paris and London, Europe is a map to me, not a place I've experienced. When I send mail to European 'Catter friends of mine, I cna't figure out why there's so many numbers and names in it, and what I means. Sometimes, I'm not even sure which word is for the city or town. So, I get out a map, or look it up on the internet. I like to place friends in a setting. Photos are even greater.
I think that you'd find most Americans critical enough of their own Country (even after 9/11) to believe that we're not as smug and self-congratulatory as it might appear to some. Every country gets labeled. Parisians are unfriendly, southerners and Midwesterners(in the United States are "hicks"... people who are dumb and insular)... and on it goes. I wrote a song for a friend who said that she would never move to Wisconsin because you couldn't buy Brie there... and Wisconsin is the cheese center of the United States.
Wrote another song with the line "We are drowning in the details of life." I'm sure folks in England, or Hawaii are drowning in the details of life. But, I think us Amuricans are a friendly sort. Just have to get to know you. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: Troll Date: 13 May 02 - 08:47 AM UK is much more insular. I mean, everyone KNOWS that the Wogs start at Calais. Mrrzy, I agree with you but there is a subtle difference. The Americans feel a trifle embarrased about it. They are a little uncomfortable around the British and French, rather like an auto mechanic thrown in with a group of lawyers. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: artbrooks Date: 13 May 02 - 08:51 AM Mrrzy, the reason for our having the best country is that we have people and food from everywhere else...and we do our very best to mangle the language properly as we go about it! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: GUEST,Geordie Date: 13 May 02 - 09:19 AM Recently four Canadian soldiers were killed by "friendly" American fire in Afghanistan. The American President sent no condolences, the American people were largely unaware of the tragedy. Canada and Canadians were not so much offended by this as they were hurt and disillusioned. Considering the assistance given to thousands of Americans by Canadians in the aftermath of the terrorist attacks , Canada was not one of the countries thanked by George Bush. Yes Americans are insular, arrogant, and contempyuous the much of the world. They are also generous, caring,brave, freedom loving people. That is what is so infuriating about them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: artbrooks Date: 13 May 02 - 09:23 AM Well, Geordie, most US citizens who are aware of anything at all, and I'll be the first one to admit that isn't all of us, were very aware of this, and Mr. Bush expressed his regrets in a nationally televised address. I think your facts are in error. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: Paul from Hull Date: 13 May 02 - 09:29 AM Well put, Guest. In general, I'd say that what we see on the 'net isnt the true picture anyway.... being as how such a HUGE propertion of people on the 'net are in the US (& Canada) anyhow. I'd even hazard a guess that there are a bigger proportion of the US population on the 'net than most other countries anyhow (maybe cos as I understand it, using the 'net is cheaper across the pond than here in the UK? In general terms though, I think the factor that American produced goods (eg: Pepsi/Cola, etc) & American TV & films are so easily accessible plays a big part. The rest of the world (or at least those parts of it that do have access to those things) can learn more about the US (though perhaps in a slightly skewed way (Hollywood, & TV sitcoms, etc, dont provide a particularly accurate picture, I'm sure!) That IS a two-way street, I think (even though most of the traffic is maybe going one way...*G*) UK TV & films seem pretty popular in the States, from what I can gather, though there is the 'special relationship' as the Politicians are fond of quoting...as well as a fairly common language...*G* Are Americans insular though in that they dont perceive how the rest of the world is (or how its people live, I should say) I dont think so, for what my opinion is worth. A proportion of Anericans have seen how other Nations & cultures live, through their tourism, or Military Service, or through the Internet too...but having said that, it depends where there interests lie (thats true for all of us). Consider that if we just look at our own Nations, America is so vast, its difficult for even Americans to know all they might want to about their own country...same is true here except that its TIME, not size. (somebody quoted on another Thread the other day - "Brits think 100 miles is a long way....Americans think 100 years is a long time" - to paraphrase what they said). Its difficult for all of us in 'the 1st World' to perceive how people in 'the 3rd World' see their lives, or see us. But I'd hazard a guess that some of those currently hostile to the West &/or the US see the US as 'taking their money' whereas Americans see it as bringing material benefits to those countries. It seems that a LOT of the focus both for the US & the nations who are negative about the US, is OIL, & related factors (such as carbon dioxide emissions). Having said that, what I dont understand is why, when its claimed there are cheap & clean alternatives to fossil fuels, the US is almost inviting the hostility of other Nations over it, & in the case of the Gulf War, 'potentially' spending the lives of its Servicemen & women. Is the Oil Lobby so strong that the US Government will anger the World at the G8 Summit over emissions, & anger the Arab World over bases in Saudi, & over going to War over oil, when development of those alternative power sources could go a long way to removing those bones of contention? Though this has drifted off topic, not been put well, & got far too long, my own personal conclusion, for what its worth, is no, AMERICANS arent necessarily insular as such, but the American Govt. most certainly seems to be. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: InOBU Date: 13 May 02 - 09:32 AM In fact... many Canadians are not aware that NATO is bombing Labrador every day, but who cares? It only affects Canadian native popluations for whom the damage casued to hunting lands is a real concern... Insular, Moi? Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: InOBU Date: 13 May 02 - 09:34 AM OK here is is, US folks are insular... what have your governments done about the following (Yes the US has done nothing either...) To keep this musical.... Who will marry me Words Lorcan Otway, all rights reserved... I'm a Bangladeshi Hindu girl, I cannot say my name I cannot show my face to you, I'm forced to flee in shame I cannot find the words to tell, what they did to me When the gangs came to my village and robbed my dignity I cannot speak the words my fear, and horror to relate When the women of my village became, the target of your hate With nothing but my tattered clothes, I have been forced to flee For after my public shame, who would ever marry me
In the decade before I was born, my land was wracked with pain Democracy and Freedom, religious rights to gain All the people of our land, shared the terror of that night to cast off religious hatred and, emerge into the light
I can't understand why the world, allows hate to divide my land Is our pain so foreign to your world, that you can't understand The tears of my nation, a waterwheel could turn Can they not touch your heart enough, our history to learn
How my story ends I cannot say, what's ahead I cannot see Fundamentalism's fertile fields, are starved lands of poverty But in the ruins of my land and life, I can only cry in vain why must I bear the shame alone, who would ever share my pain
One question more I'll ask of you, before I flee my land One question more I'll put to you, I'm too young to understand One question more I must demand, before I turn to go, for the answer to this question, no young girl may ever know
My sister's bodies have become, the target's of your war And our mother's and our grandmothers, for countless years before How can it be our dishonor, why is it our disgrace Why is it not the rapist, who is forced to hide his face
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: GUEST,Geordie Date: 13 May 02 - 09:41 AM It did take Mr. Bush an inordinately long time to express his sympathy. Initially he did not refer to it in Press Conferences at all. I am not anti-American, there is much That I admire and respect about your country but sometimes you take your friends and neighbours for granted. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: Paul from Hull Date: 13 May 02 - 09:41 AM Oops..a lot went up there while I was typing that epistle! I was agreeing with the American Guest posting at 07:53 (though I dont disagree with the Guests who've posted since then) ..& a big *LOL* to everything InOBU (& others) have said " The Sun never sets on the British Empire, God doesn't trust them in the dark!" Very good! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: Paul from Hull Date: 13 May 02 - 09:46 AM Ooops..& while I was typing THAT, InOBU posts that song that almost makes me cry... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: artbrooks Date: 13 May 02 - 09:50 AM Geordie, the accident happened on April 17th. He called Mr. Chretien that night and his statement was made the next day. How is that an "inordinately long time"? The statement is here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: CarolC Date: 13 May 02 - 09:59 AM Some people in the US are insular. And some people in Britain are insular too. And we've got some of each here in the forum. Takes all kinds to make a world, and I guess it takes all kinds to make an internet forum, too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: Paul from Hull Date: 13 May 02 - 10:00 AM Oh B*GG*R! How did it do that?..Sorry! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: DMcG Date: 13 May 02 - 10:01 AM Its easy to do that, Paul. Let me show you ..... perhaps not |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: GUEST,Geordie Date: 13 May 02 - 10:04 AM On The morning of the seventeenth when asked by Cdn reporters if he had sent official condolences to the people of Canada, Mr. Bush refused to answer the question. There was a great deal of consternation in Canada over the fact that we lost four soldiers and Mr. Bush appeared to be indifferent. It was not an item on American news reports nor did it seem be of much concern in America, I just felt, as a Canadian that we had been taken for granted and that our loss was not appreciated. Being a small country, population wise, we felt the loss of these soldiers deeply. Two of them come from the Province in which I live and the grief felt here was considerable, as I am sure you can imagine. I believe that people felt we had been ignored...and we were. Sad but true. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: CarolC Date: 13 May 02 - 10:18 AM GUEST,Geordie, I would be grateful if you woudn't hold the citizens of the US responsible for anything Pres. Bush does or doesn't say or do. Remember, the majority of us didn't vote for him, but we're sort of stuck with him anyway. On behalf of those of us who didn't vote for Mr. Bush, I would like to offer my condolences to the Canadian people for the loss of those four soldiers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: GUEST,Geordie Date: 13 May 02 - 10:39 AM I appreciate your thoughts. I do not judge countries by who the leader is....I have always found Americans to be, for the most part, good neighbours. I would not want to be judged on the basis of the current leadership in my own country. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: CarolC Date: 13 May 02 - 10:42 AM Is the Oil Lobby so strong that the US Government will anger the World at the G8 Summit over emissions, & anger the Arab World over bases in Saudi, & over going to War over oil, when development of those alternative power sources could go a long way to removing those bones of contention? The answer to this question is YES. And it's not just the oil lobby. A lot of the key people in the Bush administration are oil people. My opinion is that the oil industry is our real government (along with a number of other large corporate interests), and that Bush and the others in the government are their defacto employees. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: kendall Date: 13 May 02 - 10:42 AM He did get around to it after someone told him that it is what someone with brains would do. There is no center/centre of the world for people who have travelled or have some idea of what is going on in the world. Brits don't drink Budweiser. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: C-flat Date: 13 May 02 - 11:07 AM Taking the initial question in it's literal sense I have never found Americans insular or remote. I've made several trips to the U.S. and even in New York found people to be chatty and approachable with what seems to be a genuine interest in who you are,where you're from and wether you're experience of their particular corner of the world is a positive one. Some of that, I think, is borne out of their patriotism, which is always in evidence and something we in the U.K. seem to have lost, and some from the general outgoing nature of most Americans which can come across as over-confidence or arrogance. Once the British "reserve" is relaxed, I've enjoyed many conversations with total strangers all over the U.S. Geographically speaking, when your own "back yard" is the size of America it's hardly suprising that some of its population aren't as familiar with other places,locations and cultures. Now when it comes to being insular, the French........... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: Peg Date: 13 May 02 - 11:13 AM No but they do drink Stella Artois!
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: InOBU Date: 13 May 02 - 11:13 AM Kendal! Unfortunzatly some brits DO drink Budwiezer, though I can't for the life of me emgagine why, so folks think bud, like baseball hats are cool! Beats me! Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: CapriUni Date: 13 May 02 - 11:29 AM (writing from the USA, Virginia, btw, near-ish to where Elizabeth I sent her first colonizing explorers... I'm not far from the Elizabeth River). As for American vs. British spellings... I think it's just an evolution thing. When the first colonists came here from England, the language didn't have any standard spellings. I think that came about 100 years later. Those on the right side of the Pond chose one option to become standard, those on the left, another. Sort of like the evolution of different finches in the various Galápagos Islands. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: DMcG Date: 13 May 02 - 11:38 AM Heavens, Capri, are you saying we Brits chose such an eccentric set of spellings deliberately? Its worse than I thought! It must have been those Cholmondeley and Featherstonehaugh families who put the dictionary together. (See Dr. Johnson's Preparatory Notes for His Dictionary, 1755) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: SharonA Date: 13 May 02 - 12:04 PM Jerry Rasmussen says, "For you folks across the sea, Pennsylvania is only two states away [from New York City]... you can drive to Philadelphia in two and a half hours." While it is true that one must travel through New Jersey if one wants to take the shortest route from New York City to Philadelphia PA, the state of Pennsylvania is not necessarily "two states away" from NYC. If one travels north from NYC and then west, say on interstate 84, one crosses from Orange County NY into Pike County PA without setting foot (or tire) in New Jersey. From that point north, New York state and Pennsylvania share a common border. So, for Jerry to say that PA is two states away from PA... well, that's just plain insular!! *BG* SharonA, native insular Pennsylvanian |