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Lyr Req: Beaches of St. Valery (Davy Steele)

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LAST TRIP HOME
SETON'S LASSIE


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GUEST,MC Fat 16 May 02 - 04:56 AM
PeteBoom 16 May 02 - 09:45 AM
GUEST,MC Fat 16 May 02 - 10:20 AM
Malcolm Douglas 16 May 02 - 10:59 AM
GUEST 16 May 02 - 11:33 AM
PeteBoom 16 May 02 - 12:34 PM
GUEST 16 May 02 - 04:21 PM
PeteBoom 17 May 02 - 08:17 AM
Gareth 17 May 02 - 06:31 PM
GUEST 18 May 02 - 07:47 AM
GUEST 18 May 02 - 03:56 PM
Gareth 18 May 02 - 07:04 PM
GUEST 19 May 02 - 11:51 AM
Teribus 21 May 02 - 07:40 AM
RichM 21 May 02 - 08:12 AM
Scabby Douglas 21 May 02 - 08:27 AM
PeteBoom 21 May 02 - 08:28 AM
GUEST 21 May 02 - 04:47 PM
GUEST,MC Fat 22 May 02 - 04:44 AM
GUEST 22 May 02 - 08:07 AM
Scabby Douglas 22 May 02 - 08:23 AM
GUEST 22 May 02 - 09:32 AM
Scabby Douglas 22 May 02 - 11:16 AM
GUEST 19 Oct 13 - 11:20 AM
GUEST 19 Oct 13 - 11:49 AM
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Subject: St.Vallery ? WW2 song about Scots Reg.
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 16 May 02 - 04:56 AM

I heard a great song sung by two girls Taggart & Wright at Holmfirth at the weekend about some retreat by a Scottish regiment that got overshadowed by Dunkirk. All I can remember is a line about 'My Brother waving from the boat' and I think the the place was something like St. Vallery. Any ideas folks ?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: St.Vallery ? WW2 song about Scots Reg.
From: PeteBoom
Date: 16 May 02 - 09:45 AM

It is The Beaches of St. Valerie by the late Davey Steele. He wrote it commemorating his uncle and his father, who enlisted in the Argyle & Sutherland Highlanders in 1939 and were sent to France with the British Expeditionary Force as part of the 51st (Highland) Division.

When the German army came rolling along the path that no one but a historian would have predicted, the BEF was pulled back to the Channel - particularly when it became clear that the French army in the field was collapsing more quickly than even the Germans hoped for. (Not to fault the rank and file boyos - the French high command got the army into tip-top readiness, for 1879, not 1940.)

The 51st Division and elements of the 1st Armoured (only armoured) formed the rear guard to allow the bulk of the BEF to escape. (Most of 1st Armoured raced off to the South with the French forces, trying to hold off the forces encircling Paris - it did not work.)

The stated plan was to collapse their "pocket" to the fishing port of St. Vallerie, where deep water ships could come straight to the quay, allowing troops to load quickly. The division commander ignored orders for him and his staff to report to BEF HQ at Dunkirk, and sent a dispatch runner instead, with lists of commendation recommendations for the troops who were making the withdrawl possible. He stayed with his troops to the end.

When Churchill made his speech about the British Army being evacuated - the 51st Div was still fighting in France. He countered the order to evacuate them, even though the Royal Navy was ready to go. The squaddies that got to the port piled into whatever was there - small craft and one old fishing trawler (Davey's father got on the trawler, his uncle didn't) and set off across the Channel expecting to see the evacuation fleet - there was nothing there.

Air cover was withdrawn, leaving the troops to fend for themselves against impossible odds. Perfidious Albion had struck again - leaving Scotland to hold the bag. When the survivors were released from the POW camps, the career officers found their careers over, the troops were given their de-mob pay and a suit - and that was it. In direct contrast to the units that also surrendered during that sorry war - where officers were brevetted for "courage under fire" when. Some of the prisoners actually died in the "death camps", being Jewish or of other "subhuman" derivation.

Davey's Uncle moved to Toronto, where, last I knew, he still lives. The song tells that story.

The pipe band I play with wears the cap badge of the Tyneside Scottish (TA), with the permission of the Officer Commanding. A Territorial unit associated with the Black Watch. Territorials are comparable to the National Guard in the States - citizen soldiers, train part time and called up for emergencies. They, too, were part of the 51st Div. and, in June of 1940, "ceased to be a measurable fighting force" when all but some 100 men of 2 battalions were killed or captured in France.

Overshadowed by Dunkirk? They made Dunkirk possible. The miracle is that the Division held as long as they did.

Pete


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: St.Vallery ? WW2 song about Scots Reg.
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 16 May 02 - 10:20 AM

Thanks Pete, I know that I found the song moving and powerfull and I'm pleased for the info you have provided, the song was neither introduced, explained or credited ( it was however sung beautifully).


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: St.Vallery ? WW2 song about Scots Reg.
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 16 May 02 - 10:59 AM

Lyrics can be seen here: 3 Pints Gone: Bridges of St Valery

See also this previous discussion: Lyr Req: Heroes of St Valery


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: St.Vallery ? WW2 song about Scots Reg.
From: GUEST
Date: 16 May 02 - 11:33 AM

Pete, your version of Dunkirk is full of mistakes and speculation. Please read The Miracle of Dunkirk by Walter Lord (he is an American, and also the guy who wrote about the Titanic, A Night to remember) Yes, mistakes were made, but not the sell out you infer.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: St.Vallery ? WW2 song about Scots Reg.
From: PeteBoom
Date: 16 May 02 - 12:34 PM

I got my version from survivors of the 51st Highland Division. The 51st Div. was left behind - fact. 1st Armoured was left behind - also fact. They were expecting to be evacuated - also fact. Aircover was pulled off even though there was plenty for Dunkirk days earlier - also fact.

Memoirs of the senior officers of the 51st Div disagree with Mr. Lord. The fact that bitter feelings of combat vets who did their bit and got no recognition of it happens to disagree with the official sanctioned version of history is no surprise, is it.

It was a losing fight - those don't make heroes of sprout medals like a winning fight will for ensigns who do little more than "crouch in a ditch and mess themselves." The last bit was a quote from George Wilson, Piper, Highland Light Infantry, 51st Div., and uncle to my old pipe major, 50th Div Royal Engineers (TA).


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: St.Vallery ? WW2 song about Scots Reg.
From: GUEST
Date: 16 May 02 - 04:21 PM

"It was a losing fight - those don't make heroes of sprout medals like a winning fight will for ensigns who do little more than "crouch in a ditch and mess themselves." The last bit was a quote from George Wilson, Piper, Highland Light Infantry, 51st Div., and uncle to my old pipe major, 50th Div Royal Engineers (TA)." Of course it was a losing fight mate. But someone had to be the rearguard. Obviously no-one wants to be the last, they were "that others may live". Have you ever seen how many vessels were destroyed on that mission? The UK could ill afford to lose any destroyers. Aircraft were kept back because we had too few to lose in a no win fight at Dunkirk. A different perspective but I too had my Veteran sources. Navy predicted that they might save 30,000 from Dunkirk. They actually rescued 340,000.

Vice Admiral Ramsay - who was in charge of Operation Dynamo - had sent destroyers and transport ships to evacuate the troops, but they only expected to have time to lift off about 30,000 troops.

However, before long, the harbour became partially blocked by ships sunk in consistent attacks from enemy aircraft. It became necessary to take the troops off the nearby beaches as well - something that was thought to be an almost impossible task because of shallow water.

German Air Force units were assigned to bombard Dunkirk, but the weather there was generally unsuitable for flying and during the nine days of the evacuation the Luftwaffe interfered with it only two-and-a-half days-27 May the afternoon of 29 May and on 1 June.[5]

Have a chat with these fellows sometime. http://www.war-experience.org/veterans/1940-dunkirk/index.html


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: St.Vallery ? WW2 song about Scots Reg.
From: PeteBoom
Date: 17 May 02 - 08:17 AM

So, tell me, when the 51st Div reached their embarkation point on 10 June, what was the weather like?

The Jocks standing their ground were told they'd been ordered to an evacuation point. They went there and held until ammunition was exhausted and rations were getting damn few. There is no argument that the Dunkirk evacuation was a mess. The hurt came from being abandoned - not once, but twice.

When troops from Singapore, Hong Kong, North Africa and other places where British garrisons surrendered came home, they were hailed as having done the best they could in a tough situation. When the survivors of the 51st Div came home, somehow it was their fault, in the mind of Whitehall. I suspect that it is a combination of things -

The 51st Div was a representation of the birds coming home to roost. To defend the Maginot line and effectively ignore the fact that in 1914 the Germans stormed through Belgium to get to France was folly. French feelings aside, the route that nearly won WW1 was still very much open in 1940. To ignore this was foolish. Allied High Command ignored it. The Highland Division surrendering was the final act of that folly for the British. The cold shoulder they received on returning, seemingly because London did not want to face the reality of their own errors, was the far greater treachery than being left on the beaches to be machine-gunned by German aircraft.

And that, dear Guest, was the true perfidy.

I know some other vets as well - Canadians. Saw a monument in Alberta a few years ago - a Stone pillar with one word on it - Dieppe. One fellow I met, Uncle to a guy I used to teach drum and bugle corps with, was involved in having it put up. He said, bluntly, that the English were great ones for having others die for England, when the ones doing the dieing thought they were doing so for Britain and the Empire. He's a real radical, he is. He has a medal that is a bronze cross hanging from a purple ribband, by the way.

Anyway - I'm off for a weekend with people who are not Scottish but wish they were. (Scottish games here in the States - I hate long drives just to wear wool in the rain.)

Pete


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: St.Vallery ? WW2 song about Scots Reg.
From: Gareth
Date: 17 May 02 - 06:31 PM

Something i the back of my mind sugests that there was a Pipe tune on this (? A Lament?) Does this ping any memories ?

Gareth


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: St.Vallery ? WW2 song about Scots Reg.
From: GUEST
Date: 18 May 02 - 07:47 AM

Pete, you are so obviously bigoted that logic escapes you. nine destroyers were lost at Dunkirk, and countless small vessels, including two manned by members of my family " lost with all Hands". Two other actions saved 219,000 troops read about "Cycle" and "Ariel" As far as your whiners are concerned they are still alive. As far as dying is concerned there has been no shortage of that by the English so Fuck Off. Click Here

Link fixed. --JoeClone, 24-May-02.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: St.Vallery ? WW2 song about Scots Reg.
From: GUEST
Date: 18 May 02 - 03:56 PM

To answer the musical question (that person please forgive this old farts emotion) if you would click here you will get the lyrics and music, plus a better idea of their Gallant rearguard action. click here


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: St.Vallery ? WW2 song about Scots Reg.
From: Gareth
Date: 18 May 02 - 07:04 PM

Yes I Thought there was a pipe tune to this matter - thank you Anon guest.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: St.Vallery ? WW2 song about Scots Reg.
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 02 - 11:51 AM

yw Gareth.. The boat from Eastbourne destroyed off St Vallery was manned by fishermen they didnt get any medals either; or replacement boats... Just like my family.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: St.Vallery ? WW2 song about Scots Reg.
From: Teribus
Date: 21 May 02 - 07:40 AM

The thread has made interesting reading, and prompted me to do a bit of research.

Pete made a reference to Dieppe and I looked that up too.

Guest posting at 04:21 PM makes some very level comments

"The UK could ill afford to lose any destroyers. Aircraft were kept back because we had too few to lose in a no win fight at Dunkirk."

Had aircover been provided at St. Valery - the tactical situation for the British would have been worse than the one that existed during the Dieppe raid where the RAF lost 106 aircraft in one day (their highest recorded daily loss total). What followed Dunkirk was probably one of the most significant air battles of the 20th Century - The Battle of Britain. At that time the RAF had roughly 660 operational fighter aircraft - It would have been an act of complete lunacy to squander aircraft - and more importantly experienced pilots to cover the evacuation of a brigade of troops.

Considering sacrifices made all round. I find references to "Perfidious Albion had struck again - leaving Scotland to hold the bag." and "...the English were great ones for having others die for England." Ill informed, arrant shit-stirring nonsense.

Pete mentioned that one of his veteran sources had a medal with a bronze cross and purple ribbon - The Victoria Cross.

Here are some stats on that award:

English : 614 holders (list incomplete)
Irish : 190 holders
Scottish : 158 holders (list incomplete)
Welsh : 25 holders (list incomplete)
Canadian : 90 holders

On those figures I'd certainly say that the English certainly do not warrant having the comment attributed above levelled at them.

Let's stick to the music lads, that's what the originator was after.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: St.Vallery ? WW2 song about Scots Reg.
From: RichM
Date: 21 May 02 - 08:12 AM

Yes, let's stick to the music Let the song itself describe it:

"Pushed further back every day
But we never believed high command would leave us
So we fought every inch of the way"


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: St.Vallery ? WW2 song about Scots Reg.
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 21 May 02 - 08:27 AM

Hmm while not one to encourage thread creep I want to respond to a point above:

English : 614 holders (list incomplete) Irish : 190 holders Scottish : 158 holders (list incomplete) Welsh : 25 holders (list incomplete) Canadian : 90 holders

Arithmetically this looks quite impressive. However when you consider that the ratio of Englsih to Scots in the population of the UK is approximately 10:1, and that the ratio of medal holders in the stats above is just under 4:1, I'd suggest Teribus needs to consider what that says about the relative distinction of the forces involved. Per head of population Scotland had more than twice as many decorations of the type mentioned.

Incidentally - I'd have done the same analysis for the other populations but didn't know the numbers.

Statistically Yours

Steven


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: St.Vallery ? WW2 song about Scots Reg.
From: PeteBoom
Date: 21 May 02 - 08:28 AM

OK. Enough. I will telephone the folks I where I got my information from, who are still living, and explain to them that their memories and perceptions were incorrect. Then somebody call David Steele, Davey's son, and explain why this song of his father's is incorrect and that his grandfather and great-uncle had nothing to complain about, its just one of those things. And that is where this came from - the difference between the "official" history, and the views of the rank and file.

Are you happy now, Guest who refreshed the thread twice?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: St.Vallery ? WW2 song about Scots Reg.
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 02 - 04:47 PM

No Pete I'm not happy that people like you dont read and learn more history. I've learned history from more than one source. I suppose its only natural that so few people really read these days; and are merely content to hear the version they think is right from some disgruntled heroes. Those men were brave Pete, very brave, and yes they were sacrificed but not deliberately, or because they were Scots. Unfortunately the RACE issue wont go away. If they were English they would be just as pissed, as many were with the RAF just because they couldnt see em in the air. Nobody of my age thinks ill of them, but you have to look at the overall picture (which wasnt bloody nice) "All I have to offer is Blood toil tears and sweat" sound familiar? Well let me educate you, we (the British) Scots Welsh Irish Cornish Saxons Celts and Commonwealth nations sweated bled died and cried until well after 1945, and not everyone got a individual thank you medal and battle honour, or asked for one.. enough said...


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: St.Vallery ? WW2 song about Scots Reg.
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 22 May 02 - 04:44 AM

First of all I'd like to say thanks again for letting me get the words and background info but I fear I've opened up a can of worms for which I'm sorry. I don't think Davy Steel's song portrays any more hurt than the actual fact that Scots were used 'to lead the line (aka cannon fodder) many times after the 45 rebellion, this in it's fact doesn't make any Scottish soldiers death any more or less important than that of an English, Welsh or Irish soldier. I think it besmirches Davy's memory (and those who died) to continue a rant like this.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: St.Vallery ? WW2 song about Scots Reg.
From: GUEST
Date: 22 May 02 - 08:07 AM

Actually McFat, it keeps the record straight and hopefully reminds people to read and learn fact. More importantly, it is that "We Shall Remember Them" Because failure to do so means we shall be forced to repeat what we have chosen to forget. Veterans will not be with you much longer to remind you.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: St.Vallery ? WW2 song about Scots Reg.
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 22 May 02 - 08:23 AM

GUEST, Suggest you drop it... what we all should bear in mind is that history is not only what gets written down, but what is remembered by the people who were there, and lived through it. History is written afresh by each generation with hindsight and in light of changing mores. That did not just happen in Soviet Russia, it happens all the time.

History is reinterpreted to suit the viewpoint of the historian.

And I know less than I should about the history of World War II, so I can't and won't comment on the specifics.

But while you may bristle at the thought that some veterans hold or held the opinion that they were shafted, they are entitled to feel that. And Davey Steele was entitled to write a song about it. And anyone who likes is entitled to sing it. And anyone who wants to, can sing "Land Of Hope And Glory".

That's our right... and before you tell me that's what people fought and died for... I know.

Just because oral history - the transmission of experience from one generation to another -may never get recorded, does not invalidate it. In fact, because it comes from one person to another, it may have as much effect on people's attitudes and prejudices and opinions as the written, official versions.

So let's all take a deep breath, and acknowledge that no-one witing here (as far as I know) was THERE, either in British military command or on the ground at St Valery, so we don't know with certainty what happened, and as someone else said - let the song speak for itself...

Cheers

Steven


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: St.Vallery ? WW2 song about Scots Reg.
From: GUEST
Date: 22 May 02 - 09:32 AM

Steven. Read what I wrote in this thread again. I gave the lyrics and the pipe tune, because I love the music. The sites I linked to gave a more accurate account of what happened than any other poster. I dont judge those men as anything other than brave and good soldiers. The fact they are upset and angered are understood; yes they have a right to complain and feel bitter; but so do I... I was almost killedten times by bullets bombs and land mines. I wont post again, sorry for causing you so much stress.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: St.Vallery ? WW2 song about Scots Reg.
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 22 May 02 - 11:16 AM

GUEST... I just reread the whole thing again.. Please accept my apologies if I seemed a bit brusque.

I wasn't stressed - I think a few others were though. I take the point of what you were saying. Please don't take this in the wrong way - sometimes it's hard to know when repeated posts from GUEST appear whether one is responding to many people or just one. That's not a standard Mudcat "Blame the GUEST", just an observation.

I think that there is evidence from the past that for various reasons, some parts of the British Armed Forces were regarded as more expendable than others. I don't have statistics to hand, and I won't focus on ethnic or national identities, but it's certainly a perception. Now, where that perception exists, it colours experiences - that's part of what I was trying to say in talking about oral history. So in light of a perception that "Jocks are expendable" - the St Valery action is interpreted from some viewpoints in a certain way. I'd neither agree nor disagree - I don't have the information. Nor I suspect do many other posters here have much first-hand insight - apart from yourself.

It sounds like you have more personal information about the experience than anyone else who has posted here, and I respect that. Furthermore, if anything I previously posted was disrespectful, please accept my apologies.

Cheers

Steven


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Beaches of St. Valery (Davy Steele)
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 11:20 AM

In reference to comment regarding Britain having others die for them:

The Poles fought gallantly for Britain, notably in the Battle Of Britain. The Poles also contributed a great deal more in other theatres of WWII. At end of WWII when the Poles, one of the Allies who won the War, had NO HOME to go home to because Stalin had added Poland to communist bloc, Britain then started a smear campaign against the Poles, the same Poles who fought with the RAF in BOB, not only helping to defend Britain, but also teaching the RAF pilots how to successfully fight the Luftwaffe. The Poles were roundly criticised for their techniques until the RAF learned that the Poles were the ones scoring the kills.

It is shameful what not only Britain, but all the Alllies did to Poland. The Poles were ridiculed in the press, jokes about their intelligence became popular. Read "Warsaw Rising" for an in depth review of Poland's sacrifice for the Allies & their post war treatment by the Allies who they sacrificed so much for during WWII. At one time women wanted to be seen on the arm of a gallant Pole, after the war they kicked them aside. Shameful.

It is easy for us to stand here now & criticise, however we must always remember we were not there & we have more information than those who were experiencing these events did at the time. I'm not trying to excuse the behaviour, just to remind us not to get on our high horse.

The best tribute we can give those who gave their lives is to never forget to honour their sacrifice- a day off from work scheduled for our convenience is not honouring their sacrifice! We MUST teach our children!! History repeats itself, and as long as their are humans who crave power & harbor hatred towards others people will have to fight to defend their freedom. Complacency is our worst enemy.

Many agree with me when I state that events happening now in the United States have a striking resememblance to events in Germany during early 1930's.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Beaches of St. Valery (Davy Steele)
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 11:49 AM

One more thing- the fighting here is shameful!

As veterans will tell you, each of their experiences is unique. When reading other veterans accounts who were in the same line they find it hard to believe they were within 100' of each other. I have never heard, read, or spoken to a veteran who criticised another veteran's account of what he experienced in his "very small" part of the war as untrue.

The line soldier rarely knew the big picture. They knew their small piece of ground. They did not know where other units were, the plans, or certainly they could not see the airforces fighting out of sight that kept some, but not all, enemy planes getting through.

I think it is quite clear why the Highlanders would be hurt, confused, & angry. I have read extensively on WWII & until I read an account of a soldier in the Black Watch I had, "never heard of St. Valery"

Unfortunately due to events of the time, namely public morale, St Valery was not made known in the press. At the end of the War it seems that a lot of sacrifices by numerous individuals was ignored because people wanted to forget & get on with life.

Stop the fighting, the rude comments. All that does is demonstrate an inability to control one's emotions AND is the easy way out. Every person has something to contribute to the discussion. If every person's experience was exactly the same it would be pretty boring. We have an opportunity to learn & change our actions by listening to the experiences of others. We will make the same mistakes if we become frustrated because we do not like what someone has contributed & instead of listening or researching we start throwing insults.


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