Rags in the banjo, why?

Subject: Rags in the banjo, why?
From: Charcloth
Date: 17 May 02 - 09:09 AM

OK I have been an old time banjo player for over 15 years. I have always heard that the old timers put rags behind their banjos & I never understood why. I tried once but was not impressed by the whole concept. Can any body give me the line of thinking behind this. All I found it did was muffle the volume to where it couldn't be heard in a jam session [Hey Maybe that's the reason... sorry - banjo joke] Thanks Charcloth

Subject: RE: Rags in the banjo, why?
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 17 May 02 - 09:22 AM

well that is the reason, but not when your in a session, when your in your parlor, with the kids sleeping somewhere and you are desperate to learn a new tune. It takes a bit of the brightness off, as well as volume

Subject: RE: Rags in the banjo, why?
From: Jim Krause
Date: 17 May 02 - 10:29 AM

I have a Wildwood open back banjo. And it's pretty bright sounding as these banjos go. I have tried stuffing rags, towels, even small pillows in the back. And I never was satisfied with the results. The banjo just sounded like it had been stuffed with rags.

The idea, according to my banjo picking pal in the band I play in is to make the banjo sound more tubby and percussive. It works, sort of, on his antique, which has a TuBaphone tone ring in it.

As to the thought that the old-timers put rags in their banjos, I rather have my doubts. Uncle Dave Macon played several banjos, one of which was a resonator banjo.

If you need a mute, the rags in the back of the banjo works. If you want a tubby sounding banjo, buy a tubby sounding banjo.
Jim

Subject: RE: Rags in the banjo, why?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 May 02 - 10:48 AM

Using rags or cloths to mute a banjo is not limited to old time players - you'll even find it as a suggestion in Sully's Irish Banjo book (tenor style).

I have known players try rags, etc. to try to alter the tone. One particular example was someone with a particularly harsh and loud banjo with a cast alloy frame. He discovered that sticking some heavy carpet around the inside of the rim gave the instrument a much more pleasant tone.

Jon

Subject: RE: Rags in the banjo, why?
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 17 May 02 - 11:08 AM

I think it's quite stylish and attractive, don't you? Seriously, for me the issue isn't so much brightness as RESONANCE-Ance-ance-ance-ance....) I find that muting the instrument somewhat allows the natural tone of the instrument to come through more clearly and the notes to be more sharply defined. I sometimes put some rags in my hammered dulcimer for the same reason.

Dan

Subject: RE: Rags in the banjo, why?
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 May 02 - 11:12 AM

The primary reason is that these rags when soaked in gasoline will provide quicker ignition and more thorough burning of the banjo.

*Mandatory Banjo Joke (#279) expected on all banjo threads*

Spaw

Subject: RE: Rags in the banjo, why?
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 17 May 02 - 11:29 AM

Charcloth and I have been discussing this issue in a PM, and I'll reiterate some of that here. I just got a Saga SS10 and am messing with it to try and arrive at the sound I want.

I put a fibreskin head on which dulled it down somewhat, but I'm still not quite getting that tubby sound that is desired. After listening carefully, I didn't like the sort of "tinny" hollow sounding overtones I was getting. I experimented with rags, which are hard to control, and have ended up with a 2" X 2" piece of soft sponge. It seems to effectively mute the tinniness. Also I can easily stuff the sponge behind the coordinator rod and slide it from one end to the other, which gives some slight variation in the tubbiness effect - especially when it's directly under the bridge.

Of course the side effect is to cut down on volume, and since I normally play a resonator banjo, this is causing quite a bit of character development. Hell, maybe next I'll get a huge honking amp and go electric !!

Subject: RE: Rags in the banjo, why?
From: Charcloth
Date: 17 May 02 - 12:23 PM

Hey Les B, I gotta a couple of banjo pick ups but they won't fit behind the Saga (will fit behind a Chanterelle though)but that would complicate the rag issue. So I guess I'll save amplification for another thread.

Any way I find if you can get too thumpy of a sound you can't do airs & even jigs there just is not enough sustain. It does seem hard to keep the ballance between too bright a sound & too little sustain. I also find that the rags hinder resonance which is in oposition to what Dan Schatz said. So I still am confused here.

Subject: RE: Rags in the banjo, why?
From: fogie
Date: 17 May 02 - 12:45 PM

O dear I thought this was about playing rags on a banjo. Very disappointing

Subject: RE: Rags in the banjo, why?
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 17 May 02 - 01:12 PM

Warning - slight thread shift here.

One of the things I've been wondering about is the internal resonator now offered on some of the Bart Reiter open back banjos. How do they work and what is their intent?

Is it to give more volume without the dreaded, viewable resonator which says to all the honest world, "this is not an old-timey banjo," or is there another rationale ??

Subject: RE: Rags in the banjo, why?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 May 02 - 01:27 PM

Pete Seeger advises this as a way of muting the volume, which also gives the banjo player something to mop the brow with when needed.

Subject: RE: Rags in the banjo, why?
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 17 May 02 - 01:43 PM

thinking about this some more, apart from the muting aspect, which we have all covered in one way or another, except for this. The old fretless banjos were tuned a little lower, had gut strings, skin heads, not so bright a sound, that old-timey sound is what some of us are trying to get to by stuffing rags, socks, etc, in what has become by design a brighter, louder, resonating instrument. Better we all get old fretless banjos, gut strings, and tune down a bit?!

On the other hand, maybe this practice also came from trying to de-humidify the skin heads that were more common than they are today. If you stick a rag in there, it might wick the moisture, or act a little like the dehydrating packets that come in shoes, etc. Any thoughts on the practicality of this?

Subject: RE: Rags in the banjo, why?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 17 May 02 - 01:49 PM

Like fogie, I also assumed that we were wondering why people played ragtime banjo. I was about to spring to the defence of cylinder recordings of Fred Van Epps and Vess L. Ossman and their respective bands.
If anyone is not aware of these two players, try to track down some way to hear their recordings. I have one LP compiling recordings by each of them from the twenties or thirties and there is some interesting stuff contained therein. I also lifted a couple of tracks not on my LP from Napster before it shut down operations. I view that as a legitimate reason to use stuff such as Napster, as there is about as much chance of some record shop trying to sell me the originals as the lifespan of the proverbial snowball in hell.
If you haven't heard Ossman or Van Epps do so!
Qack!!!!!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Rags in the banjo, why?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 17 May 02 - 02:13 PM

Sorry - that was me using my dear wife's cookie
Geoff the Duck!

Subject: RE: Rags in the banjo, why?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 17 May 02 - 02:27 PM

So it's nothing to do with drool then?

Subject: RE: Rags in the banjo, why?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 May 02 - 04:57 PM

I usually use a rag/facecloth/leftover pizza to mute my banjo when I'm planning to accompany myself or other people. If I were playing in an instrumental jam session or with a contradance band I'd yank it out, but ordinarily my banjo is plenty loud.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Rags in the banjo, why?
From: BanjoRay
Date: 17 May 02 - 08:31 PM

I use a very tightly rolled piece of sponge pushed as close to the neck as possible behind the dowel stick. If I leave it out, I get some hollowness in the tone, as if I'm playing it in a huge concrete room. When it's in, the banjo sounds no quieter, but beautifully mellow.

Cheers
Ray

Subject: RE: Rags in the banjo, why?
From: Charcloth
Date: 19 May 02 - 09:27 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: Rags in the banjo, why?
From: Bert
Date: 20 May 02 - 03:37 AM

I would suggest a can of that spray in urethane foam insulation! *HEE HEE*

Subject: RE: Rags in the banjo, why?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 20 May 02 - 11:59 AM

One approach that works as a tone modifier is to simulate a heavier skin by applying a sheet of Contact (self-adhesive vinyl) to the back of the skin. It works. I did this back in the 60's, but thought it might be interesting to apply the vinyl to the front of the banjo head. THat worked, too, but gained me some notoriety because the vinyl I chose was printed to look like a brick wall.

Subject: RE: Rags in the banjo, why?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 20 May 02 - 12:05 PM

I'm sure that stuffing with rags would improve the sound of both kazzoos and bodrhans !

Subject: RE: Rags in the banjo, why?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 20 May 02 - 12:12 PM

I used to use a bit of rubber foam when I had an open-backed banjo, but only when practicing. Fiddle players soemtimes use a spring clothes-peg on the bridge instead of a mute. I'm not sure exactly what goes on, but it "radiates" away some of the higher freqs (or higher freaks?) like a proper clip-on violin mute, only much cheaper. You get some interesting side-effects doing it on a banjo--it may bounce on the head, and will certainly shoot off at the worst possible moment--but a distinct lack of front-effects.

Steve

Subject: RE: Rags in the banjo, why?
From: Jim Krause
Date: 20 May 02 - 12:13 PM

I did modify my Wildwood banjo by removing the factory installed Waverly tailpiece and substituting a No-Knot tail piece. That added a little depth to the sound. The banjo is still pretty bright, however. I have had the neck scooped out from about the seventeenth fret toward the rim, thus making it easier to play over the neck. That fattens the tone quite a lot, and adds a funky clop, clop, clop sound on the brush stroke.

I have toyed with the idea of taking out the Tubaphone tone ring, and having a wooden one made and inserted there. I have also thought of just bagging the whole idea, and learning to live with the brightness of that instrument.
Jim

Subject: RE: Rags in the banjo, why?
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 20 May 02 - 03:52 PM

Jim K - I'm about to go the other way - take off the no-knot tail piece and put on a Kirchner to push the strings down and possibly get a little more volume.

Dick - I like the brick wall contact paper idea.. may try it - my playing always goes over like a ton of bricks anyway !

Can anyone explain the internal resonator idea ?

Subject: RE: Rags in the banjo, why?
From: GUEST,ozmacca
Date: 20 May 02 - 11:59 PM

Dave Bryant - You may be interested to know that I have had a triangular felt glued to the skin inside one of my bodhrans for years. Just take a square piece that fits neatly inside, fold across point to point, cut in half and position so the long side of the triangle goes across the centre of the bodhran. The primary reason of course was to take away the tendency to ring a little too loud, especially in our hot, dry weather. I've tried it occasionaly without the felt, but had to bow to public opinion See - we do care..... really - just like the banjo players.

I should point out that it is a foul calumny that I came to bodhrans by getting disgusted with the tuning of the banjo and so decided to simply break off the troublesome bit.......

Subject: RE: Rags in the banjo, why?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 21 May 02 - 12:39 AM

Frank Lee (of the Freighthoppers) wraps a little something around the 5th string, right down by the bridge, to mute it a bit. (I can't remember what -- it's on the video somewhere.) I find sometimes that playing with a long sleeve sweater has a similar and beneficial effect... ('course, the season for that is pretty short in this part of the world!)

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Rags in the banjo, why?
From: GUEST,Al
Date: 22 May 02 - 12:54 AM

That's where banjo players keep their change of clothes.

Consider using nylon strings. On some banjos, they sound real nice and clunky, and still have good volume, no rag needed. But then you might have to buy a suitcase.

Al