WHAT KEY AM I IN?

Subject: WHAT KEY AM I IN?
From: Jeep man
Date: 18 May 02 - 06:20 PM

As you folks know, I am musically challanged and have a hard time figuring out chords,etc. Question; If I capo my guitar on the 4th fret and play out of Eminor, what key am I actually in? Jim

Subject: RE: WHAT KEY AM I IN?
From: 53
Date: 18 May 02 - 06:22 PM

Key of B and your Eminor becomes a G#minor.

Subject: RE: WHAT KEY AM I IN?
From: Jeep man
Date: 18 May 02 - 06:55 PM

Thanks 53. Now I can be ignorant with confidence. Jim

Subject: RE: WHAT KEY AM I IN?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 18 May 02 - 07:21 PM

Well Bob may or may not be right... Your Em has certainly become G#m but more info would be needed to determine the key of the song.

I'd have thought if the chord you are focusing on is the minor chord, the song is most likely a song in a minor key and it's more likely the key is G#minor...

If root chord of what you were playing was a G shape capoed up 4, Bob's answer would be correct.

Jon

Subject: RE: WHAT KEY AM I IN?
From: 53
Date: 18 May 02 - 09:43 PM

Good answer Jon.

Subject: RE: WHAT KEY AM I IN?
From: DancingMom
Date: 18 May 02 - 10:52 PM

So, if you capo or play a bar chord at each fret up the board, each would be a whole step higher? (Just learning myself.)Thanks, great question. Sharon

Subject: RE: WHAT KEY AM I IN?
From: Mark Ross
Date: 18 May 02 - 10:57 PM

It's a half-step for each fret higher you go.

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: WHAT KEY AM I IN?
From: Mudlark
Date: 18 May 02 - 11:10 PM

I am even more music theory challenged than Jeep man...I would like to know how to determine what key I'm in WITHOUT withOUT the capo, just for starters. If chord pattern 1-4-5, is the "key" the first chord? In 3 chord songs this may be simple, but some songs seem to start "in the middle," chord pattern-wise...Sweet Georgia Brown comes to mind, which I start in E7, but it seems to me it's in the key of G. Maybe the starting G is implied?

Subject: RE: WHAT KEY AM I IN?
From: Sorcha
Date: 18 May 02 - 11:12 PM

Usually, not always, the key is the last chord of a song--also called the tonic.

Subject: RE: WHAT KEY AM I IN?
From: khandu
Date: 18 May 02 - 11:38 PM

And, yes, some starting chords are implied, such as the G in John Hurts "Salty Dog Blues". I am not too familiar with "Sweet Georgia Brown", so I cannot comment on it.

khandu

Subject: RE: WHAT KEY AM I IN?
From: pavane
Date: 19 May 02 - 05:21 AM

Don't forget that many songs starting and ending on minor chords are actually 'Modal' rather than minor key. Well known examples include Scarborough Fair.

The technicalities of the so-called 'Greek' modes are explained elsewhere, but the main rule to remember is you shouldn't in general use the 7th chord. (Play G, not G7, etc)

Subject: RE: WHAT KEY AM I IN?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 02 - 05:42 AM

For the dorian mode, Pavane is right. For the mixolydian mode you most definately should play the flattened 7th

Subject: RE: WHAT KEY AM I IN?
From: pavane
Date: 19 May 02 - 07:27 AM

Agreed that not all modes are the same, but Dorian and Aeolian are the most common. (I did say 'in general')

Subject: RE: WHAT KEY AM I IN?
From: Blues=Life
Date: 19 May 02 - 08:22 AM

When I play my harmonica, I have an easy way to check what key I need to play in. I lean over, whisper in the guitar players ear, and say, "What the hell key should I play?" See? Easy as can be.

Blues

Subject: RE: WHAT KEY AM I IN?
From: DMcG
Date: 19 May 02 - 09:35 AM

The Greek modes may well be explained elsewhere, but can someone point me at 'em? Folk music I have from the early seventies (eg EFDS Publication 'The Foggy Dew') helpfully classifies every tune as Ionian, Mixolydian, Aelian or whatever. Doesn't mean a thing to me, folks, especially as (mainly) a singer.

Subject: RE: WHAT KEY AM I IN?
From: Sorcha
Date: 19 May 02 - 09:49 AM

Here ya go--Modes for Mudcatters

Subject: RE: WHAT KEY AM I IN?
From: DMcG
Date: 19 May 02 - 09:56 AM

That link took me to the wrong place - but a search for that title gave me what I wanted. Thanks, Sorcha

Subject: RE: WHAT KEY AM I IN?
From: Sorcha
Date: 19 May 02 - 09:57 AM

oops. not quite awake yet. I highlighted but forgot to click copy.........doh. Want me to try again?

Subject: RE: WHAT KEY AM I IN?
From: pavane
Date: 19 May 02 - 12:50 PM

As a singer, you don't really need to know much about them anyway, just sing the notes. It's the accompanist who needs to know.

Subject: RE: WHAT KEY AM I IN?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 02 - 12:55 PM

It's the accompanist who needs to know.

I don't think, in most case, even s/he has to know.

It's a bit like saying you need to know the 'formal rules' of sentence construction to speak eloquently

Subject: RE: WHAT KEY AM I IN?
From: 53
Date: 19 May 02 - 01:14 PM

As a general rule , the first chord of the song usually represents the key. I'm not to good at figuring out the minor keys since the minors are a relative to the major key. A B C D E F G are the most used major keys. See I can learn something new every day.

Subject: RE: WHAT KEY AM I IN?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 02 - 01:17 PM

A B C D E F G are the most used major keys

ROTFLMAO

You're too funny Bob!

Clarinent players and Brass Bands probably wouldn't agree :-)

Subject: RE: WHAT KEY AM I IN?
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 19 May 02 - 01:47 PM

Bob actually (inavdertaitly) raises quite an interesting question:

What are the most commonly used keys?

For folk, and most guitar based stuff, D must be the most common with G and C close by.

E is used a lot for guitar blues, A is pretty common to. F not so often, although Dm obviously is.

I'd guess that Bb is more common than B, and Eb fairly well used too.

Subject: RE: WHAT KEY AM I IN?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 02 - 03:59 PM

I'd say D,G then A as the top three, after that I wouldn't be sure.

I'd agree that Bb is more common that B

Subject: RE: WHAT KEY AM I IN?
From: C-flat
Date: 19 May 02 - 05:14 PM

I once played in a blues band which was going O.K. but then we decided to bring in a horn section. All our songs needed to be changed to sharps or flats to accomodate the horns and really "letting go" in E-flat took some doing. No wonder so many blues players de-tune a semi-tone! That said, those horn players could make the hair stand up on the back of my neck when they kicked in!

Subject: RE: WHAT KEY AM I IN?
From: GUEST,Bullfrog Jones (on the road)
Date: 19 May 02 - 06:47 PM

If you're not sure of the key, find the last note of the song (assuming it resolves to the tonic) --- that'll give you the key.

Subject: RE: WHAT KEY AM I IN?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 02 - 06:59 PM

Bullfrog,

Your advice, assuming it resolves to the tonic

whilst accuarate is about as useful as a lead balloon.

Subject: RE: WHAT KEY AM I IN?
From: Bullfrog Jones
Date: 20 May 02 - 01:36 PM

Whereas your contribution tells us what exactly, GUEST? That (A) you can't spell, and (B) you've got nothing useful or positive to add.

Subject: RE: WHAT KEY AM I IN?
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 May 02 - 02:08 PM

I'll post a more tactful version of GUEST's response to you, Bullfrog.The trouble is with your statement "assuming it resolves on the tonic" assumes a technical knowledge of the theory of music, enough to understand "resolve" and "tonic". And if you know that, I think you won't be needing to ask how to figure out what key a tune is in. I think that's what sarky guest meant, anyway!

Subject: RE: WHAT KEY AM I IN?
From: Mooh
Date: 20 May 02 - 02:16 PM

I can remember my father (a choirmaster from my childhood) who would put the church choir in key before attempting a piece of music by having us sing the scale, then having us sing the interval from the root to the starting note. He could then demonstrate that we could learn to reverse the procedure by singing something new and then find the related scale. This became quite easy with major scales and some of us caught on to minor scales the same way too. Naming the key of the scale was immaterial to the choir, but comparing the root of the scale sung to a note on an instrument was teachable to kids. Making it a friendly game for kids made it fun.

An hour with a decent teacher of your instrument and a notebook would answer all your questions as to what key you are using, and it would be worth the expense. Failing that, find a chord reference organised by key and a book called "The Mini Guitar Grimoire" by Adam Kadmon, or "Scales And Modes In The Beginning" by Ron Middlebrook.

Honestly, fifty bucks or so will pay off bigtime.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: WHAT KEY AM I IN?
From: Grab
Date: 20 May 02 - 05:24 PM

53, there's many many exceptions to the "first chord tell the key" theory ("Yellow submarine" is just one). But the number of exceptions to the "last chord tells the key" (at least in trad folk tunes) can be counted on the fingers of one foot.

Graham.

Subject: RE: WHAT KEY AM I IN?
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 May 02 - 06:03 PM

Drowsy Maggie, Miss McLeod's Reel The Morning Dew The High Reel The Fermoy Lasses Kilfenora Jig(debatable) Drops of brandy...there's a few extremely well known folk tunes whose last chords don't define the key of the piece. The list is endless.Obviously the majority of tunes end in the "home key" but it's by no means a universal rule.

Subject: RE: WHAT KEY AM I IN?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 May 02 - 06:14 PM

The last note works most times, though there are exceptions - but you still have to listen to how the tune sounds, to be sure if it's minor or major or in some kind of mode.

If there's a guitar player who goes in for full chords and doesn't have a funny tuning, that's handy for spotting the key. Or, with some electronic tuners, you can spot the last note while you're up at the bar, with the idea of casually coming in with the right chord as if you had perfect pitch.

The basic rule though is, if you aren't certain, play softly and listen to yourself (stick your ear against the instrument) before you play loud enough for anyone else to hear.

D, G, occasionally A, plus a minor and e minor - that will get you most places in an Irish session. And C as well, if the tunes turn English. And then, of course, there are the times when the key changes between the tunes in a set. (When that happens inside tunes, that's not traditional, and you don't want to join in with that stuff, and they don't want you to either most likely.) There are rules and conventions here, but they vary.

Subject: RE: WHAT KEY AM I IN?
From: GUEST,Bullfrog Jones (on the road)
Date: 20 May 02 - 07:59 PM

Absolutely right Greg, but I only put in that caveat because if I hadn't some smartarse like GUEST would have popped up with 'yeah, but what if it doesn't resolve?'. The basic point remains true that you're better off listening to the last note of the song. (And if Jeep man or anyone else wants to ask what 'resolve' and 'tonic' mean, they're in the right place to find out!)

Subject: RE: WHAT KEY AM I IN?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 02 - 08:04 PM

yeah, but what if it doesn't resolve?

Subject: RE: WHAT KEY AM I IN?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 May 02 - 10:36 PM

In autoharp, LOTS of stuff is in F.

~S~

Subject: RE: WHAT KEY AM I IN?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 20 May 02 - 10:58 PM

Whats a key?

Subject: RE: WHAT KEY AM I IN?
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 May 02 - 01:14 AM

And this is supposed to be a music forum!!--I think I'm going to have to start taking some serious anti-depressants--not that phony Zoloft stuff, but some real ones with a little kick--

Subject: RE: WHAT KEY AM I IN?
From: C-flat
Date: 21 May 02 - 02:24 AM

As an old entertainer friend of mine used to say at the start of a song "Pick a key and let yourself in!" or "Do you sing in F or do you just Effing sing!"

Subject: RE: WHAT KEY AM I IN?
From: GUEST,ozmacca
Date: 21 May 02 - 02:35 AM

And they wonder why I chose bodhran?

Subject: RE: WHAT KEY AM I IN?
From: greg stephens
Date: 21 May 02 - 02:44 AM

Plenty of fiddle tunes change key at the start of the second half, McGrath from Harlow. Are you saying they are not traditional? Of course, it all depends on what you mean by traditional: I've never seen a horse playing a fiddle.

Subject: RE: WHAT KEY AM I IN?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 21 May 02 - 06:58 AM

Being a piper I quite often get asked by musicians what key my pipes are in. I think I should have phrased that last sentence differently "other musicians". It's quite hard to give a simple answer. The drone note and tonic for a lot of tunes is Bb but the pipe scale has a flattened 7th making an Eb major scale. To make things more complicated tunes may have tonics on Eb, F, or C. I think the problem arises because music from all around the world including a lot of British folk music is not built using Major or Minor scales. Major and Minor are just 2 possible ways to divide up the space between an octave in a musically meaningful way, there are many many more. What I'm saying basically is there's no point in trying to force all music into the 2 or 3 scales used in western art music. The story gets even more interesting when we look at Just verses tempered scales but I think I'll leave that to another time (you'll be glad to hear). All the best PP.

Subject: RE: WHAT KEY AM I IN?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 May 02 - 07:42 AM

I think of the second half in the fiddle tunes Greg mentioned as being essentially a new tune, and you quite expect a key change there. Or to put it a different way, you can get to think of two tunes you are used to playing in a set as being two parts of the same tune, and the same applies there.

What I meant were the songs where there's a key change part way through, so the same tune is played in a new key for dramatic effect, and that isn't traditional. (No quarrel with it - I've got one song where I keep going up a semi-tone every verse and chorus; but I wouldn't want anyone who didn't know it trying to busk it with me.)

That question John of Hull asked "What is a key" is not that easy to answer in simple terms. I was asked that the other day by someone who plays the guitar reasonably enough, and I was floundering.

In order to understand the answer you really a need a bit of theory, and if you know that theory you know what a key is anyway. But most people get to play and use keys and change keys without understanding that stuff. It's like explaining the parts of speech to someone who speaks the language - not that easy to explain and not that easy to understand the explanation.

Subject: RE: WHAT KEY AM I IN?
From: GUEST,provocateur
Date: 21 May 02 - 07:54 AM

McGrath ...

What about "The Pinch Of Snuff"?

Explain that one away...

(Sorry ... it's just that there's always an exception to every rule!)

Subject: RE: WHAT KEY AM I IN?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 May 02 - 08:03 AM

There aren't any rules here, except rules of thumb; and they aren't rules.

Subject: RE: WHAT KEY AM I IN?
From: GUEST,Foe
Date: 21 May 02 - 08:06 AM

I just figured out why certain keys (like Am) are the relative minor to a major key (like C). Go to a Piano and play only the white keys up and down starting at middle C. You've played a C major scale. (have someone show you where middle C is). Then move your finger to the left two white keys. Next white key to the left is B, skip the black key (Bb/A#) and the next white key is A. Now play a scale only on the white keys from this A up to the next A and back and you will be playing an Am scale. Same with Key of G. You have to sharp one note, the F to F# (instead of playing the F white key you move up to the black key, F#), and this gives you the same relationship of half steps to whole steps between notes so you get a G major scale playing all white keys on the piano except for the F which is now an F#. Now move down to the white key that is E (the relative minor to G major) and play the same scale as you did with the G major scale except start on E and end on E. You've played an E minor scale. That's why certain minor keys are the relative minor to certain major keys.

Subject: RE: WHAT KEY AM I IN?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 21 May 02 - 10:48 AM

I think Jeep Man is probably talking about playing for singing. If so then he probably needs to know so that he can tell someone else what he's playing in. If he learns the twelve semitones of the scale (really all that entails is knowing that there is only one semitone between B-C and E-F) then he can just count his way up the frets. In this case it would be a case of saying to himself - Em, Fm, F#m, Gm, G#m.

Playing tunes is a bit different, but basically most dance music is likely to be in the fiddle keys of D, G, or somtimes A (or the related minor keys of Bm, Em, - can't actally think of any in f#m), plus the odd one in Am. Hint - if you've got standard G/D melodeons playing (unless you've got Andy Cutting or Tony Hall types) you won't get much outside of G, Em, D, Bm, Am. If you can tell the difference between a major and minor chord, then a quick bit of trial and error will find the key - you shouldn't need a capo (except perhaps for Bm).

Another tip - if there's a "Stange" chord in the tune (Statten Island is good example) try using the chord a full tone below the tonic (ie C for the key of D and F for the key of G) you'll be right at least 50% of the time.

Subject: RE: WHAT KEY AM I IN?
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 May 02 - 07:50 PM

"Key" roughly, any way, is the name of the main note in a piece of music--(it is often also called the " tone center`) and, by implication, the other notes that go along with it, which, pretty much, would be the scale--

When I say main note, I mean the note that melodic phrases tend move toward, away from, and around--Some melodies will use it at the end of every phrase--while some melodies will move all around it and never quite get to it until the last possible moment--

Many of you confuse the chord with the key--understandable, since, especially if you are being modal, you can often play an entire folk melody over a chord based on the tone center, but, in order to figure out the key, it is best to consider only the melody notes, because chords can often include notes that are note even in the scale--

A lot of tunes include key changes--Sweet Georgia Brown, moves through three keys in the "A" melody alone--

If you were all classically trained, this would be a no brainer, because you would just count the sharps or flats in the key signature, and you wouldn't have to understand anything--but, since you are folk musicians, and not slaves to the written line, a little understanding is necessary--Truth is, folkies need theory, because they need to understand what is happening in order to play the music in the first place--you can play classical music without knowing any theory at all!!!!

Subject: RE: WHAT KEY AM I IN?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 May 02 - 08:14 PM

I think you've just demonstrated my point, M.Ted. And GUEST,Foe, I think you have neatly demonstrated how in practice a lot us do actually learn - whatever theory we may eventually pick-up comes out of doing things without any theory as to why they are the right things to do.

I'm sure there are a lot of people who actually find it easier to start with the theory. Only trouble is sometimes they are inclned to think that the rest of us really work that way as well, and that we're just pretending. There are clearly sveral very different wiring systems people can have in their brains.

Subject: RE: WHAT KEY AM I IN?
From: GUEST,Guest A.N.Other
Date: 21 May 02 - 08:28 PM

If you have the right key you can sing in any flat.