Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesj

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2]


How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?

Related threads:
PEL: Mummers stopped Cerne Abbas (101)
PEL: demo - pictures (14)
BS: Is Kim Howells an arsehole? (65)
Licensing Bill - How will it work ? (331)
Weymouth Folk Festival (UK) (120)
A little more news on Licensing (158)
Killed by the PEL system Part 2 (93)
The New Star Session R.I.P. PELs (55)
PEL Problems in Hull (39)
PELs: Are we over-reacting? (74)
Circus PELs - I told you so! (16)
PEL Mk II: UK Government at it again (24)
PEL stops session in Cheshire (78)
Lyr Add: PEL Song: A PEL Protest (Julie Berrill) (27)
PELs - Letters to important folk. (50)
Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs (506) (closed)
PEL: Architect)?) Andrew Cunningam (11)
Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE (286) (closed)
UK Government to license Morris Dancing (68) (closed)
EFDSS on the Licensing Bill - PELs. (38)
PEL: Doc Roew gets through to Minister !!! (11)
PELs Dr Howells on Mike Harding Show. (106)
From Eliza Carthy & Mike Harding PELs (36)
Common's Early Day Motion 331 (new)(PEL) (69)
DANCING OUTBREAK! and definition. PELs (16)
PEL threads. links to all of them. (50)
BS: Village Greens and licences (3) (closed)
PEL's: News Blackout! (53)
PEL: Billy Bragg BBC1 Monday nite (17)
PELs: Exemptions? (107)
Petition Clarification (PELs) (9)
PEL debate on BBC TV Now. (6)
further 'dangers' with the PEL (24)
Stupid Music Law. (8)
Howells (now) asks for help PELs (68)
PEL : MPs' replies to your e-mails (40)
PEL: Where does Charles Kennedy stand? (10)
PEL: NCA Campaign free Seminar (18)
PEL: Howells on BBCR1 TONIGHT! (45)
PEL : Hardcopy Petition (44)
PELs Government v MU & lawyers (48)
PEL Pages (5)
Human Rights Committee AGREES! PELs (20)
Churches now exempt from PELs (55)
Lyr Add: PEL 'Freedom to sing' song (12)
Lyr Add: PEL Protest song (14)
Can YOU help The Blue Bell session? (9)
PEL: Urgent soundbites - CBC interview (25)
BS: Kim Howells, but NOT PELS for a change (8) (closed)
PEL: Billy Bragg on Question Time 6th Feb (15)
Kim Howells (PEL) (85)
PEL - A Reply From An MP. (22)
BS: What is PEL? (3) (closed)
PEL - 'Demo' Fleetwood 30th Jan 2003 (25)
PEL – Robb Johnson on R3, 1215h, 26/1. (8)
New PEL. An alternative argument. (31)
PEL: DEMO 27 JANUARY 2003 (95)
PEL: VERY URGENT - CONTACT yr MP TODAY (46)
Poet against PEL - welcome Simon (10)
PEL: First Lord's defeat of the bill (10)
PEL - 'Demo' Fleetwood 23rd Jan (5)
kim howells does it again (PEL) (69)
PEL UK - Unemployed Artist Dancer - look (22)
PEL hit squads! (16)
PELs for beginners (26)
PEL: Latest rumour/lie? It's gone away? (3)
PEL: but not music (9)
Folking Lawyers (PEL) (26)
MU campaign - Freedom of Expression (36)
PEL- Enforcement: How? (8)
PEL: Inner working of Minister's minds? (9)
PROTEST DEMO WITH GAG (PEL) (10)
PEL: What activities to be criminalised? (29)
A Criminal Conviction for Christmas? (PEL) (45)
PEL - Idea (34)
Glastonbury Festival Refused PEL (5)
MSG: x Pete Mclelland Hobgoblin Music (23)
Sessions under threat in UK? (101)
PELs of the past (13)
BS: PELs and roller skates. (1) (closed)
PELs UK Music needs your HELP (64)
Fighting the PEL (43)
URGENT MESSAGE FOR THE SHAMBLES (22)
Lyr Add: The Folk Musician's Lament (a PEL protest (2)
BS: Queen's speech, and licensing reforms (32) (closed)
PELs UK BBC Breakfast TV Monday (1)
PEL: Licensing Reform? (46)
BS: PELs in Scotland (12) (closed)
BS: The Cannon Newport Pagnell UK - no PEL! (18) (closed)
Action For Music. PELs (28)
Killed by the PEL system (66)
TV sport vs live music in pubs. HELP (6)
PEL and the Law: 'Twas ever thus (14)
EFDSS letter to UK Government HELP! (2)
24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs (77)
Help: PELs & The Folk Image (12)
Official 'No tradition' 2 (PELs) (55)
Is this man killing folk music? (19)
We have PEL - Rose & Crown Ashwell, 23/6 (2)
BS: Vaults Bar, Bull ,Stony Stratford - PEL (4) (closed)
What is folk ? - OFFICIAL (26)
Official: No tradition of music in pubs (92)
UK catters be useful TODAY (70)
Help Change Music In My Country (102)
PEL-More questions (7)
NEWS for visitors wanting to play in UK (56)
Nominate for a Two in a Bar Award -UK (11)
USA- HELP Where is Dr Howells? (13)
BS: URGENT UK contact your MP TONITE (18) (closed)
ATTENTION ALL UK FOLKIES URGENT HELP? (97)
Write an Email for Shambles? Part 2 (75)
UK TV Cove Session/The Shambles (24)
All UK folkies take note - the law!!! (68)
BS: Tenterden weekend (and PELs) (11) (closed)
PEL (UK) (25)
Will you write an Email for Shambles? (111) (closed)
Important - Attention All Mudcatters (99)
Council Bans Morris Part 2 (73)
Council Bans Morris Dancing (103)
Day of action for live music 19th July (44)
Traditional activities and the law (13)
Sessions under threat in UK PART 2 (15)
Making Music Is Illegal. (56)
Urgent Help Required!! Threat to UK Sessions (11)


GUEST,SeanN 22 May 02 - 09:08 AM
DMcG 22 May 02 - 09:18 AM
greg stephens 22 May 02 - 09:20 AM
MMario 22 May 02 - 09:21 AM
DMcG 22 May 02 - 09:28 AM
Snuffy 22 May 02 - 09:29 AM
greg stephens 22 May 02 - 09:30 AM
greg stephens 22 May 02 - 09:36 AM
Malcolm Douglas 22 May 02 - 09:44 AM
DMcG 22 May 02 - 09:46 AM
GUEST 22 May 02 - 09:53 AM
GUEST 22 May 02 - 09:53 AM
GUEST,SeanN 22 May 02 - 09:56 AM
greg stephens 22 May 02 - 09:59 AM
DMcG 22 May 02 - 10:04 AM
GUEST,SeanN 22 May 02 - 10:09 AM
greg stephens 22 May 02 - 10:32 AM
greg stephens 22 May 02 - 10:36 AM
Nigel Parsons 22 May 02 - 10:42 AM
DMcG 22 May 02 - 10:46 AM
greg stephens 22 May 02 - 11:19 AM
C-flat 22 May 02 - 11:20 AM
Nigel Parsons 22 May 02 - 11:29 AM
McGrath of Harlow 22 May 02 - 11:38 AM
Dave Bryant 22 May 02 - 11:40 AM
Malcolm Douglas 22 May 02 - 11:46 AM
greg stephens 22 May 02 - 11:52 AM
Malcolm Douglas 22 May 02 - 12:16 PM
Steve Parkes 22 May 02 - 12:16 PM
greg stephens 22 May 02 - 12:19 PM
GUEST 22 May 02 - 12:33 PM
DMcG 22 May 02 - 12:39 PM
Nigel Parsons 22 May 02 - 12:46 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 May 02 - 01:24 PM
Noreen 22 May 02 - 01:39 PM
MMario 22 May 02 - 01:49 PM
lamarca 22 May 02 - 02:03 PM
The Shambles 22 May 02 - 02:34 PM
The Shambles 22 May 02 - 02:41 PM
GUEST,SeanN 22 May 02 - 07:21 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 May 02 - 07:52 PM
Ebbie 22 May 02 - 11:39 PM
Steve Parkes 23 May 02 - 03:13 AM
Dave Bryant 23 May 02 - 04:44 AM
GUEST,Gilly 23 May 02 - 03:25 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 May 02 - 03:42 PM
Malcolm Douglas 23 May 02 - 03:55 PM
Martin Graebe 23 May 02 - 04:33 PM
The Shambles 24 May 02 - 04:23 AM
GUEST,SeanN 24 May 02 - 08:10 AM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:













Subject: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: GUEST,SeanN
Date: 22 May 02 - 09:08 AM

I'm curious about this fact, as there have been so many threads on the subject of the licensing and music in pubs here and in uk.music.folk in recent months.

BTW, I am aware of the laws, etc as I've been reading the threads, so don't need a recap of that. I'm more interested in finding out how far back in time the music session in the pub goes. My guess is, not that far.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: DMcG
Date: 22 May 02 - 09:18 AM

Depends on how you define things, to some extent. Are you prepared to accept Beowulf? I'm sure CapriUni or someone with a similar lit. background could tell us if there's a suitable Chaucer quote!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 May 02 - 09:20 AM

Well, many references from the 1600's on.Presumably earlier...well, where else were all the fiddlers and pipers etc play in the winter evenings? It would take a little source-chasing to document that, but no doubt Tudor and Jacobean playwrights might provide earlier references. It depends what you mean by "not that far"...would you settle for 500 years...I find it difficult to believe that people did not sing and play in pubs as long as there have been pubs to do it in.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: MMario
Date: 22 May 02 - 09:21 AM

from the remininsces of WWI soldiers I would say back at least a century - which I would guess for right-bankers is considered a "radical new developement"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: DMcG
Date: 22 May 02 - 09:28 AM

There must be a great deal of material from the time of the Puritans denouncing such evil pastimes.

It certainly looks like the limiting factor in "how old is Brit trad" is the relatively short time Britain has been around....


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: Snuffy
Date: 22 May 02 - 09:29 AM

Music Halls were originally part of pubs, rather than separate theatres, but that was just updating an older tradition of music and liquor.

WassaiL! V


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 May 02 - 09:30 AM

Exactly how widespread pub-playing was would be impossible to establish solely from a handful of quotesspread over half a millennium: but consider the creation, variation and rapid spread of many thousands of fiddle tunes between 1600 and 1850, not to mention the vast body of folk songs (including drinking songs!). It's a bit difficult to postulate a mechanism for this in English society that doesnt involve places for communal leisure-drinking and social get-togethers.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 May 02 - 09:36 AM

SeanN, what's the theory behind your "not that long" guess? It's intriguing.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 22 May 02 - 09:44 AM

The typical "pub session" as we understand it today does seem to be a fairly recent phenomenon in both Britain and Ireland, but in the less specialised sense of a more-or-less informal event including singing and (less often) instrumental music and sometimes dance (including, but not restricted to, traditional material), it seems reasonable to suppose that it goes back as far as pubs do, at any rate.

Some useful references off the top of my head:

Ginette Dunn: The Fellowship of Song: Popular Singing Traditions in East Suffolk (Croom Helm, London, 1980)

Ian Russell: Stability and Change in a Sheffield Singing Tradition (The Folk Music Journal, vol.5 no.3, 1987; EFDSS, London)

Hazel Fairbairn: Changing Contexts for Traditional Dance Music in Ireland: The Rise of Group Performance Practice (The Folk Music Journal, vol.6 no.5, 1994; EFDSS, London)

Chaucer certainly describes instances of social music making in and around pubs (bagpipes were involved, if I remember correctly) but I can't give chapter and verse just now.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: DMcG
Date: 22 May 02 - 09:46 AM

"Bring Us in Good Ale" is listed "Medieval English Lyrics" (ed RT Thomas) as late 15c, and if that's not a pub drinking song, I don't know what is!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 May 02 - 09:53 AM

My reason is that the transmission of trad music in Ireland via pub sessions is very recent. In Ireland, music and dance occurred in homes, at crossroads, etc but the pub session in Ireland, as far as I recall, is common only in this century. There was something called the Dance Hall Act in Ireland also, which had some effect on the playing of music and dancing by the audience in the Republic.

Thanks Malcom, for the information. While there are many historic references to music being played in association with alcohol and/or public houses in literature, that isn't quite the same thing as pub sessions as we know them today. I'm guessing the beast we know today would be fairly easy to trace and documentable through the public house licensing records.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 May 02 - 09:53 AM

The above is attributable to me, SeanN.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: GUEST,SeanN
Date: 22 May 02 - 09:56 AM

OK, I think I've got it now! Above two, attributable to me.

SeanN


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 May 02 - 09:59 AM

Malolm, where do you get the idea of "less often instrumental music" from? I would have thought the "fiddle and pipes in an alehouse" scenario would have been standard since time immemorial.What social pressure could have prevented it, given the enormous numbers of musicians,the popularity of music, and presumably the readiness of mine host to ensure with the odd free pint, if not always money, that the fiddlers came to his place and not the Dog and Dumpling next door?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: DMcG
Date: 22 May 02 - 10:04 AM

As we understand them today

What do you feel are the characteristic differences between modern sessions and those of the past? The biggest ones, I imagine, are:

a) regular sessions on specific days each week (as opposed to 'regular' in the sense of 'after the haymaking' or local special days such as one Bob Copper called 'Tater Beer Night')

b) the concept of a planned paid guest for most of these sessions, as opposed to any passing traveller singing or the occasional special visitor.

Are these the criteria you would use? I think it may help the discussion if we're agreed on this.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: GUEST,SeanN
Date: 22 May 02 - 10:09 AM

Your first mistake there Greg, is in presuming there were "enormous numbers of musicians". The cost of instruments were quite dear, and were much more rare in the past than they are today. As was the alcohol.

The communities that have these native traditions of music had little money, few instruments, and imbibed mostly homebrew and poteen. If one wasn't in a city, there is also the problem of distances to be covered to get to a public house. In Ireland, there was no public house sort of tradition as there was in England. Music was played and learned at home, where the drinking and singing and dancing also took place.

Honest Greg--life hasn't always been the way it is now. You may even have heard our ancestors didn't amplify their pub sessions too! (Just a gentle slag there)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 May 02 - 10:32 AM

Sean, I wasnt talking about Ireland, I was concentrating on England, as my own area of special interest is the north of England.firstly, even in quite remote parts there would be a pub every couple of miles, maybe more, even in northern rural dales.Secondly, instrument were very common: obviously we can't quote actual numbers here, I'm not that kind of social historian, but the trade of fiddle-maker is well attested even in quite small communities, let alone pipe making,(which actually involves a lot less skilland could be done rather crudely by almost anybody).And whistle making from elder is universal. As regards numbers of musicians, consider farm and road making financial a ccounts, which can be found all over the place. You will see musicians employed to entertain the labourers, and by the nature of the industry there was often similar acitivity going on on neighbouring farms simultaneously. And of coursechurch records will show the vast numbers of people playing stringed instruments. Also consider the number of fiddlers' tune books(manuscript) that have come down to us, plus the commercial sale of books of dance tunes since the 16oo's. There were thousands of fiddlers, and I bet they went tp the pub in the evenings.Well, plenty of them, anyway.. On the other hand, if we are talking of the modern type of session, I'd have a guess it is modern. .


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 May 02 - 10:36 AM

By the way, Sean, you did say Brit in the thread title, so you mustn't be surprised if we politely talked about the scene this side of the Irish Sea.I'd have been jumped on( and deservedly) if I assumed Brit referred to Irish sessions!! Now, if you want to talk about Irish pubs...well where shall we start?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 May 02 - 10:42 AM

DMcG:
I imagine your comment 'b', "the idea of a planned paid guest, as opposed to travelling musicians" narrows the field too much.
The tradition would be for the locals to provide the singing. Travellers would merely add to the number of songs available. (and due to "tradition" the songs the travellers used would be repeated later, from memory, hence the fluidity of the lyrics !

Nigel


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: DMcG
Date: 22 May 02 - 10:46 AM

Point taken Nigel. It was bad phrasing on my part. Then as now, the backbone to any sessions would be the local singers. But I imagine the idea of arranging for some visitor to come specially to sing - in addition to the normal singers - would be much rarer in the past than it is now.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 May 02 - 11:19 AM

Bit of thread drift onto music transmission by travellers(as in people travelling, not necessarily Travellers ) which I'll join in with.The gradual move north each year of groups of people engaged in seasonal agricltural work must have had a huge musical effect. One local pattern I know about is people from Donegal crossing to Wales in early summer, starting working onCheshire farms and moving steadily north through Lancashire and Cumbria and then round the corner of the Solway into Galloway.Andback home for winter. Bringing music(and musicians) with them. Bringing new songs in. taking new songs back.Harvest kneesups all the way.So nw england, sw scotland and donegal are full of each others tunes and songs.In the pubs!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: C-flat
Date: 22 May 02 - 11:20 AM

I wouldn't have thought that in the 1600-1800s there would be the information network available to source entertainers from outside the local area, much less the willingness of the public to pay an entrance fee. I suppose most of the "performers" would be regulars, with maybe the occassional "wandering minstrel" singing/playing for their ale and keep. Around the 1900's my great grandfather was a well known local pub entertainer who played a variety of instruments and, from what I could gather from my grandmother, "always had a pocket full of thre'penny-bits" which I suppose would be handed to him as he went round from pub to pub.I used to have a tape of my grandmother singing some of the songs he wrote.They were mostly topical, comedic ditties with a few risque double-entendres thrown in for good measure. Sadly the tape is lost, grandmother is long dead and all I've got are a few half-remembered lines.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 May 02 - 11:29 AM

C-flat, in this instance, your loss is our loss too. No brothers or sisters who would have copies ??


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 May 02 - 11:38 AM

Inthink the music would have been there before ever the first pubs started, and naturally moved in along with the people. It depends how you define pubs. The Romans had them.

The basic thing is, wherever people have gathered together, there has always been music - caves, campfires, ships forecastles, workplaces, picket lines, private houses, public houses...

There was probably a falling off in some places in the 1950s or so (balannced to some extent by an expansion of music in coffee bars and so forth), and then a gradual growth once again from the 1960s on.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 22 May 02 - 11:40 AM

The only problem that there might have been with pub sessions before the mid 20th century, was that in many areas of England, pubs tended to be men-only establishments. There's plenty of evidence that women frequented many town taverns, but in many rural and northern areas women would not have been served. Even as late as the 1960s a girlfriend of mine was refused a pint in a Yorkshire pub (there was only the one public bar) - I was allowed to buy her a half pint - but she had to drink it outside.

In Bob Copper's "A Song for Every Season" the various singing occasions in the pub (Black Ram Night etc.) seem to have been primarily male.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 22 May 02 - 11:46 AM

To expand a little on DMcG's comments:

The modern pattern involves a lot more ensemble playing than seems to have been the case in the past (though it will have been more common here than in Ireland, for demographic reasons), and tends to be a planned and regular event involving singers and musicians who are not necessarily regulars at that pub at other times, rather than a spontaneous one generated "organically", if you like, from among those normally present; there are plenty of exceptions to this generalisation, of course. Sometimes one or two musicians are paid to lead the session, which moves it towards the "laid on" entertainment category, though there's a large grey area between the purely "just for fun" type and the paid residency. Oddly enough, the popularity of the "Irish style" session in Britain is actually a revival of the older, indigenous pub tradition that used to be quite widespread here; I doubt if the majority of those who frequent them realise that.

The widespread use of musical instruments does seem to be more common nowadays than in the past; accounts of earlier forms of "session" indicate that most characteristically concentrated on singing, though again there were always exceptions, one such being the Blind Fiddlers of Sheffield (turn of the 18th/19th centuries); their repertoire seems to have been a mix of popular and stage pieces, light "classical" and what we would now call "folk"; they were professionals, though, and the pub entertainer or busker takes us into another of those grey areas, really.

I won't dispute with Greg that musical instruments have at times been more widely played than is often thought (the barber's shop cittern, for example) and indeed, musical literacy was more widespread in the 18th and 19th centuries than it is today; I'd still say, though, that, so far as we can tell, singing has typically formed the greater part of the pub repertoire.

Ginette Dunn's book, mentioned above, deals in some detail with the "men only" issue; that seems primarily to have been just a late 19th/early 20th century thing. Certainly, "men only" bars persisted until 1972 or 73, but by then they were a relatively isolated phenomenon.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 May 02 - 11:52 AM

Malcolm, that's very interesting that you say the "men only" pub was a late 19th century thing.What do you base that on...I would like tofeel it was true but I'd like to be able to back it up as it ties in with some stuff I'm writing at the moment(all assistance will be credited!!)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 22 May 02 - 12:16 PM

I'm no historian, so it's a general impression based on things I've read. Doubtless there were "men only" rooms in many places earlier than that, but women seem to have been generally accepted in pubs otherwise. Try to get hold of a copy of Ginette Dunn's book; Part 1 Chapter 2, The Women, is particularly useful on that topic; though it deals specifically with a local Suffolk tradition and with people who were born no earlier than the 1880s, much it would extrapolate to other situations, I would think.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 22 May 02 - 12:16 PM

Surprisingly, the public house per se has only been in existence since the Beer House Act of 1830. This was brought in to combat the menace of the gin-palaces in urban areas, by allowing the provision of cheap "nutritious" low-alcohol beverages, brewed on the premises; it meant anyone with a house could get a licence cheaply and turn it into a public house.

Of course, there have always been places selling beer, but the "pub" as we know it is a relatively modern phenomenon.

Steve


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 May 02 - 12:19 PM

Steve, i think you're just talking about the name "pub" dating after 1830. There have always been places called "The Red Lion" where you get a pint and a bag of pork scratchings.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 May 02 - 12:33 PM

Greg, I only mentioned the Irish side of the sea, because it is that I'm more familiar with in the intellectual sense (the familiarity with the pub the other side is recreational).

SeanN


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: DMcG
Date: 22 May 02 - 12:39 PM

Greg, you must be right. I think you would get a chilly reception in this pub if you suggested it only really dated to 1830-ish.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 May 02 - 12:46 PM

DMcG: "said to have been built in 1189" a mere youngster! compared with "The Skirrid Inn" which is recorded in 1110 as the site of the trial of two men.
Of course, The Old Trip To Jerusalem only claims to be the oldest pub in England
CHEERS

Nigel


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 May 02 - 01:24 PM

It's a bit like saying there is no tradition of singing in the bath. Which would actually be a lot truer, because it's only within the last couple of generations that most people have had a bathroom in their homes.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: Noreen
Date: 22 May 02 - 01:39 PM

I'm sure people sang in the tin bath in front of the fire, McG...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: MMario
Date: 22 May 02 - 01:49 PM

Or while bathing in a lake or stream (as my grandfather did.)

In fact my grandfather often attracted audiences on the lakeshore across from "the old swimming hole" where he would be cleaning up. they would bring picknic dinners down and dine while listening to him.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: lamarca
Date: 22 May 02 - 02:03 PM

I'm across the pond, and have no specific knowledge of British or Irish pub history. That disclaimer given, I wonder if the politician who made the original statement about "No tradition of music in pubs" was influenced by the relatively modern perception of music as a performing art to be conducted only by paid professionals for a passive audience, rather than a participatory community activity.

With the rise of radio and television, fewer people feel comfortable about making music themselves. The music "industry" encourages people to think of music as something to purchase rather than to be made. The politician who made the ignorant statement may be unfamiliar (or not care) about the wealth of social interactions when people got together to sing or play musical instruments for the sheer joy of it rather than because they were paid entertainers...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 May 02 - 02:34 PM

The gentleman of the Local Government Association to whom the comment was attributed, has a set position and the comments were made to support this.

It should of course be the other way around. If he should come back and defend this statement we may find out the answer to the question posed in this thread. perhaps the questions here should be directed at him?

Difficult for him to prove a negative, however.

Lamarca I think that you are most probably right about his perception. If it was honestly expressed, which I think it was but it does show the level of ignorance and the danger of it being expressed at the highest level. People who are just as ignorant of their nation's traditions will assume that his comments were based on some knowledge or data.

We could always ask them to come here, to be informed?

For the puposes of the current argument, it would not matter if the tradition only went back two weeks, it would still be a tradition, or would be if the Government were not doing their best to prevent it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 May 02 - 02:41 PM

I will leave this thread to its purpose but -

Should you wish to know more and do what you can to help, just click here OFFICIAL no tradition of music


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: GUEST,SeanN
Date: 22 May 02 - 07:21 PM

Referring back to DMcG:

"Greg, you must be right. I think you would get a chilly reception in this pub if you suggested it only really dated to 1830-ish."

I went to the link, which suggests the origins of the pub was "shrouded in history".

Just how is something shrouded in history, exactly? Any guesses?

I would lean towards agreeing with Dave Bryant, Malcolm Douglas, and Steve Parkes. If I bothered to research this (which I likely never will), I think we'd discover that there would be little of what we call the pub session today, extending too terribly far in the past. But that is mere surmising.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 May 02 - 07:52 PM

Things change, but that's what tradition is about. There are aspects of pub sessions which are new, largely because on the one hand we travel around more than we used to, and on the bother many pubs have become much less welcoming to spontaneous music-making than was true at one time. There are television sets and juke boxes,and fruit machines.

And the music has changed too, and the custom of playing instruments together, rather than standing round a pub piano is more widespread than it has been in the past.

But the idea that the pub is where you go to sing with your mates is not new. It's just that you might have to travel further to find a pub that allows it, and arrange it more in advance sometimes.

As for the assumption that people in general are just not interested in the idea of singing for themselves, instead of always listening to professionals, it seems to me that the lie is given to that by the popularity of karaoke. It may not be the way many of us like to sing, but it demonstrates an appetite for it, disguised by a felt need to do it in a way that is somehow permitted by a culture that is unfriendly to singing. (In the same way line dancing perhaps demonstrates the same appetite for social dance, shaped by the same need to do it in a "permitted" context.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 May 02 - 11:39 PM

At that site: 'It is believed this was a "shouting hole" to allow those in the castle to call for more ale from the cellars bellow. '

Isn't that a great typo!

As an ignorant Amurrican, I don't know much more about the British Isles or Ireland than I have read in books over the years, but mightn't a pub session occur in the inns on the travelers' routes? Since human nature with its needs doesn't change that much, it isn't hard to believe that many men (primarily) gathered at the inns of an evening.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 23 May 02 - 03:13 AM

Let's forget about defining "pub"--which is bit of a red herring--and turn the argument round a bit: how long does soemthing have to go on to become a "tradition"? Since youwere a child? Since I was a child? since your father's/grandfather's day? I was singing in pubs in the last century! If you prefer, I've been at it for over thirty years; is that long enough?

Steve


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 23 May 02 - 04:44 AM

My comments about many pubs tending to be MEN ONLY wasn't meant to imply that there was no singing in them - merely that women might have had to do their singing elswhere.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: GUEST,Gilly
Date: 23 May 02 - 03:25 PM

Singing in pubs is as old as pubs themselves. You get drunk, you sing. Simple as that. Nothing would be organized - it would just happen. They didn't have much else to do on a dark winter's night, all.

Oh and by the way, Scots don't like to be called Brits either. Nothing against the English, but there are Scots, English, Welsh and Northern Irish. Brits is a hateful word to the ears of many. Kindly don't use it - if you must, at least say 'British'.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 May 02 - 03:42 PM

I agree about "Brits." Pretty well the only people who like to be called Brits are the kind of English that it'd be an insult for anyone to be associated with.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 23 May 02 - 03:55 PM

It's a term which I cordially dislike, but many people use it affectionately, with no offence intended, so we shouldn't get too exercised about it. When used with the intention to offend (obviously not the case here!) it seems generally to be meant as a synonym for English, which as we all know is not what "British" means.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: Martin Graebe
Date: 23 May 02 - 04:33 PM

A quote lifted from one of my own papers:

One day in the 1850s the young Sabine Baring-Gould was riding on his pony around Dartmoor and, as the evening fell, rode down into South Zeal and found himself a room for the night at the Oxenham Arms. It was a day when the miners had been paid and had gathered to spend their wages. Writing in 1892 he describes the evening he spent in the bar:

"At the table and in the high-backed settle sat the men, smoking, talking, drinking. Conspicuous among them was one man with a high forehead, partly bald, who with upturned eyes sang ballads. I learned that he was given free entertainment at the inn, on condition that he sang as long as the tavern was open, for the amusement of the guests. He seemed to be inexhaustible in his store of songs and ballads; with the utmost readiness, whenever called on, he sang, and skilfully varied the character of his pieces - to grave succeeded gay, to a ballad a lyric. At the time I listened, amused, till I was tired, and then went to bed, leaving him singing."

SBG also tells a number of other anecdotes about his simgers performing in pubs - even the young James Olver escaping over the roof from his bedroom to sit outside under the pub window to learn songs. But that's song, rather than music - perhaps the English have a stronger tradition of singing in pubs than we have of playing music? I am sure there is some hard evidence out there somewhere

Martin


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 May 02 - 04:23 AM

One day in the 1850s the young Sabine Baring-Gould was riding on his pony around Dartmoor and, as the evening fell, rode down into South Zeal and found himself a room for the night at the Oxenham Arms. It was a day when the miners had been paid and had gathered to spend their wages. Writing in 1892 he describes the evening he spent in the bar:

The tradition goes on, for I have taken part in folk music at the very same pub, as part of the Folk Festival held every year in the village.

And no, I wasn't the poor chap described.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: GUEST,SeanN
Date: 24 May 02 - 08:10 AM

Some people here seem (to my way of understanding this thread) to be equating what I would call the English inn with British pub. Am I right about that? Do English people see the village inn (as it would likely be referred to here in the States) as the modern day equivalent of the British pub? Do the British view the pub as quintessentially British?

Then, I'm also curious about Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland. All of them have pubs now, but historically was there the same sort village inn/English inn in those areas. I know the public house came to Ireland late, except in those cities ruled by the English. But the pub tradition in rural Ireland is modern (in that I mean post-Famine modern). Are Wales and Scotland historically more similar to England or to Ireland when it comes to the pub?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
Next Page

  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 14 August 5:10 PM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.