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Help: Which Regiment(s)

GUEST,Yorkie (Chris) Bartram 22 May 02 - 06:54 PM
GUEST,ozmacca 22 May 02 - 07:06 PM
GUEST,ozmacca 22 May 02 - 07:11 PM
artbrooks 22 May 02 - 08:02 PM
Paul from Hull 22 May 02 - 08:10 PM
Paul from Hull 22 May 02 - 08:15 PM
GUEST,ozmacca 22 May 02 - 09:09 PM
GUEST,ozmacca 22 May 02 - 09:19 PM
Paul from Hull 22 May 02 - 09:45 PM
GUEST,ozmacca 22 May 02 - 10:07 PM
GUEST 22 May 02 - 10:46 PM
Wilfried Schaum 23 May 02 - 02:54 AM
Hrothgar 23 May 02 - 06:28 AM
Nigel Parsons 23 May 02 - 06:50 AM
HuwG 23 May 02 - 09:14 AM
greg stephens 23 May 02 - 09:29 AM
Eric the Viking 23 May 02 - 03:01 PM
Les from Hull 23 May 02 - 03:31 PM
GUEST,ozmacca 23 May 02 - 06:59 PM
Mr Red 23 May 02 - 07:05 PM
DonD 23 May 02 - 08:40 PM
GUEST,ozmacca 23 May 02 - 09:33 PM
Teribus 24 May 02 - 08:01 AM
HuwG 24 May 02 - 08:57 AM
Les from Hull 24 May 02 - 01:12 PM
The Walrus 24 May 02 - 03:42 PM
Paul from Hull 24 May 02 - 09:09 PM
The Walrus 25 May 02 - 07:30 PM
Gareth 25 May 02 - 07:37 PM
The Walrus 25 May 02 - 07:53 PM
GUEST,re-enactor 23rd RWF 26 May 02 - 02:23 PM
GUEST,23rd 26 May 02 - 02:35 PM
GUEST,ozmacca 26 May 02 - 10:30 PM
ozmacca 27 May 02 - 07:00 AM
HuwG 27 May 02 - 09:15 AM
Paul from Hull 27 May 02 - 12:52 PM
GUEST,ozmacca 27 May 02 - 07:37 PM
Teribus 28 May 02 - 02:04 AM
GUEST,ozmacca 28 May 02 - 03:06 AM
GUEST,Keith A o Hertford 28 May 02 - 03:32 AM
HuwG 28 May 02 - 08:49 AM
Wilfried Schaum 29 May 02 - 04:02 AM
Wilfried Schaum 29 May 02 - 05:17 AM
ozmacca 29 May 02 - 05:27 AM
The Walrus at work 29 May 02 - 09:00 AM
HuwG 30 May 02 - 07:15 AM
Les from Hull 30 May 02 - 12:56 PM
GUEST,ozmacca 31 May 02 - 01:50 AM
Yorkie 04 Jun 02 - 08:51 AM
Wilfried Schaum 04 Jun 02 - 10:19 AM
Snuffy 04 Jun 02 - 12:19 PM
Teribus 05 Jun 02 - 02:51 AM
Gareth 08 Jun 02 - 11:18 AM
Wilfried Schaum 10 Jun 02 - 02:35 AM
GUEST,Hobbitmum 17 May 04 - 11:33 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 May 04 - 02:55 PM
The Walrus 18 May 04 - 04:28 PM
Big Al Whittle 18 May 04 - 07:13 PM
Snuffy 18 May 04 - 08:34 PM
GUEST,ozmacca 18 May 04 - 09:47 PM
GUEST,Teribus 19 May 04 - 02:27 AM
GUEST 19 May 04 - 05:43 AM
GUEST 19 May 04 - 05:57 PM
Les from Hull 19 May 04 - 07:04 PM
Hrothgar 20 May 04 - 07:07 AM
TheBigPinkLad 20 May 04 - 01:43 PM
Les from Hull 20 May 04 - 05:25 PM
GUEST,Anne Croucher 20 May 04 - 06:48 PM
GUEST 20 May 04 - 07:44 PM
GUEST,hobbitmum 20 May 04 - 08:21 PM
GUEST,ozmacca 20 May 04 - 08:51 PM
Les from Hull 21 May 04 - 01:15 PM
GUEST 22 May 04 - 02:30 PM
Wilfried Schaum 22 May 04 - 05:30 PM
GUEST,Anne Croucher 22 May 04 - 06:03 PM
The Walrus 22 May 04 - 08:56 PM
GUEST 24 May 04 - 11:22 PM
HuwG 25 May 04 - 01:56 PM
Les from Hull 25 May 04 - 05:30 PM
GUEST,Hobbitmum 08 Jun 04 - 12:46 AM
Kagan 08 Jun 04 - 07:14 AM
Les from Hull 08 Jun 04 - 09:05 AM
GUEST 08 Jun 04 - 10:08 PM
Les from Hull 09 Jun 04 - 08:10 AM
GUEST 09 Jun 04 - 04:55 PM
GUEST,Gordon 30 Sep 04 - 07:38 PM
GUEST,Gordon 30 Sep 04 - 07:46 PM
Peace 30 Sep 04 - 10:15 PM
Les from Hull 01 Oct 04 - 11:05 AM
HuwG 22 Dec 04 - 04:50 AM
Wilfried Schaum 22 Dec 04 - 06:15 AM
HuwG 22 Dec 04 - 07:00 AM
Weasel Books 22 Dec 04 - 09:57 AM
HuwG 22 Dec 04 - 12:11 PM
Weasel Books 22 Dec 04 - 01:12 PM
GUEST 29 Apr 05 - 02:25 PM
GUEST,TAFFROWLANDS630@AOL.COM 29 Apr 05 - 02:38 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 29 Apr 05 - 03:52 PM
GUEST,taffrowlands630@aol.com 29 Apr 05 - 05:54 PM
The Walrus 30 Apr 05 - 06:13 AM
GUEST,taff 30 Apr 05 - 12:54 PM
sapper82 30 Apr 05 - 02:28 PM
GUEST,Keith A o Hertford 30 Apr 05 - 04:12 PM
HuwG 30 Apr 05 - 05:48 PM
GUEST,taff 01 May 05 - 04:13 AM
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GUEST,beachie@bigpond.net.au 16 May 06 - 05:58 AM
GUEST 29 Jun 10 - 06:43 AM
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Subject: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,Yorkie (Chris) Bartram
Date: 22 May 02 - 06:54 PM

"Oh yes my love has 'listed and he wears a White Cockade.
He is a tall and handsome man; likewise a roving blade.
He is a tall and handsome man just fit to serve the king.
Oh my very (oh my very)
Oh my very (oh my very)
Oh my very heart is aching all for the love of him".

In this and, perhaps, other songs or versions of songs(e.g. Rambleaway) that seem to originate in the North-East region of England there is mention of the White Cockade. Which regiment(s) might this refer to?


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,ozmacca
Date: 22 May 02 - 07:06 PM

As far as I've always understood it - which may be right, wrong, misleading, mis-representative and all those other things that the folk tradition is built on... On the death of Protestant Queen Anne, regiments in the British army were authorised to wear a black cockade or rosette in their headgear. Given that there was a good deal of support for Anne's Catholic brother James, who had been deposed by William and Mary, it looked likely that james would return to the throne, and so his followers adopted a white version of the same badge. They were known as Jacobites, hence all those songs about the white cockade and the 1715, and 1745 and Prince Charlie etc.....

And there was a lot of Jacobite support at the end of the 17th century throughout all Britain, not just in Scotland. The Highland connection is really more to do with the later period when English jacobite support had been greatly reduced.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,ozmacca
Date: 22 May 02 - 07:11 PM

.... or something. Interesting that many regiments in the British and other armies were authorised to wear a black badge on the death of the monarch. For example.. I've always understood that the Brunswick regiments at Waterloo wore black because of the recent death of their Duke. However, and to the point - I don't know of any instances where regular regiments were ever authorised to wear a white special badge. I'd appreciate any info....


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: artbrooks
Date: 22 May 02 - 08:02 PM

In addition to being a Jacobite insignia, the white cockade was also the emblem of the royalist forces in France at the time of the French Revolution.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 22 May 02 - 08:10 PM

I wasnt aware of all the precise details that Ozmacca had gone into (thanks mate, useful stuff!) but all I can add to what he's said is that I havent come across the Cockade used as a 'badge' to denote a particular Regiment as such.

I'd GUESS, & it is just a guess (& someone more knowledgeable than me might have a better explanation) that it MIGHT be the mark of a 'Chosen Man' (unfortunately the 'Sharpe' series has misled people to what that means). There were no Medals awarded prior to Waterloo, & think its entirely possible that prior to that, a soldier who performed an act of particular bravery, or skill might be 'decorated' by having a Cockade pinned to him, presumably at the discretion of the Colonel.

Less complimentary (& presumably less likely to be commemorated in song...*G*)...might be that someone who wore a cockade had been 'conned' into the Army by a Recruiting Sergeant, presumably won over by the cockades & ribbons & other 'fancy' additions to the Sergeants uniform to impress potential recruits... there is more than one instance of Recruiting Sergeants doing that kind of thing, & making the gullible recruit think he was going into the Army with some degree of favour (or Rank) compared to other new recruits.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 22 May 02 - 08:15 PM

Ooops, & I meant to say, a further possibility was that it MIGHT denote someone who had volunteered during the patriotic fervour of some wars, rather than having joined up through poverty, hunger, to avoid jail, or having fathered a child out of wedlock.

I say again this is all pretty much speculation on my part though....


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,ozmacca
Date: 22 May 02 - 09:09 PM

Yeah, I'd forgotten about the cockade as a decoration pure and simple to entice the gullible to join up. Goes along with the King's shilling the poor sod found in the bottom of his beer mug.

Meanwhile back at the Napoleonic Wars - A "Chosen Man" was the name given in the then newly formed 95th Rifle Regiment to a rifleman who had proved to be suitable as a low ranked nco - the equivalent of lance-corporal or corporal. The 95th, then the other rifle regiments as they were formed, were trained to act as skirmishers and operate independently usually well in front of the line infantry. Their purpose was to pick off enemy officers, sergeants, colour parties, gunners etc, who would be a distinct threst to the line. Because of this completely new role - in the British army at least - the existing system of ranks etc was altered to reflect the need for trust in such a situation, where the rifleman had to work intelligently as a small team or separately.

PS - Sharpe fans should know this and be going on about "fixing swords" etc - The 95th were armed with the Baker rifle, a flintlock muzzle-loaded rifle as opposed to the standard smooth-bore 0.753 inch musket. The rate of fire was lower, but the accuracy - for its' time - quite frightening. BUT - and here we Scots can stand up and take a bow - the first rifle issued to British troops was the Ferguson rifle, a breech-loading flintlock issued to the light company of a Highland regiment for trial during the American War of Independence. It was a very promising weapon, but as its' inventor, Captain Ferguson, was killed in action, the whole experiment was dropped.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,ozmacca
Date: 22 May 02 - 09:19 PM

..... AND another thing.... my God, will we ever get him to shut up?...

A cockade could also be a simple way of indicating a difference in loyalties when both sides were wearing the same - or at any rate similar - uniforms. As artbrooks has pointed out, during the French revolution, royalist and revolutionary troops could be from the same regiment, and all be wearing the same dress.

Mind you, when the muskets started firing, after a couple of volleys, nobody nearby was going to see anything anyway for the smoke.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 22 May 02 - 09:45 PM

I'd forgotten about the Ferguson Rifle....Hell, its YEARS since I read about that, & hadnt thought about it for a LOOONG time...

Good thread! I'll be back tomorrow & see who else has chipped in, but I'm off to bed now...


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,ozmacca
Date: 22 May 02 - 10:07 PM

Aye, we Scots never forget....... Now I wonder who said that? It was me, wasn't it? Yes, I remember....

To try and keep some sort of music theme going in this fascinating discourse, I'm reasonably familiar with a fair few of those "He's-off-to-war-and-leaving-me-behind-boo-hoo" and "Come-and-enlist-and-get-maimed-and-killed-if-ye're-lucky" songs, but bearing in mind battlefield conditions in the smooth-bore and bayonet era, and my note about smoke obscuring everything, are there many about an actual full scale punch-up. "Kerry Recruit" deals with storming a redoubt and being wounded at (I think) the Alma in the Crimea... Any others?


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST
Date: 22 May 02 - 10:46 PM

Or songs about particular regiments....

Clare's Dragoons,

Inniskilling Dragoons,

Twa Recruiting Sergeants (Black Watch)

The Gallant Forty-Twa (I think it was...)

A Gordon For Me (dredging up the music-hall stuff)


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 23 May 02 - 02:54 AM

It mustn't be a cockade - remember the War of Roses - to show your intention or loyalty. A common sign was especially needed in the times before the use of uniforms.
You could use a battle cry - "Montjoye et St Denis" with the French -, or a song - "Au jardin de mon pére" at Malplaquet - to identify own troops in the powder smog of battle, a plant at hand - roses, v.s. -, ribbons around an arm - black red gold with the German Federation in 19th century -, or a ribbon sewn up to a cockade. Mostly white was used as opposed to every other colour, e.g. in the French and Bolshevik revolutions against the revolutionary red.

Wilfried


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Hrothgar
Date: 23 May 02 - 06:28 AM

ozmacca, I thought the Brunswickers always wore black, and were called the "Black Brunswickers" because of it.

Guest, is it worth while starting a thread on songs about particular regiments? I just did a quick search, and couldn't find anything much. There are more goodies like "The Lancashire Fusilier," "The Ups and Downs" (about the 69th Regiment), and the "Route of the Blues." Must be a few more if I think hard.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 May 02 - 06:50 AM

Of course the Welsh wore a leek ac a cockade.
And Ozmacca's comment about the death of Queen Anne is supposedly the reason barristers took to wearing black, and still do so!


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: HuwG
Date: 23 May 02 - 09:14 AM

Ozmacca and artbrooks, quite right, the white cockade denoted sympathisers to the Jacobite cause in Britain (I say Britain rather than Scotland, becuause during the rising of the '15, there were a number of Jacobite rebellions in North-west England, which fizzled, and during the '45, a Jacobite regiment was raised in Manchester.

In Scotland especially, cockades were necessary, as several clans (especially the Campbells, but also the Munros, Mackays and others in Caithness and Sutherland) declared for Hanover. It was always useful to know who was burning your house down ...

Read James Prebble's book, "Culloden" for more information.

In the British Army, some units are entitled to wear a "hackle", a small feathered plume rather like a fishing lure, behind the beret badge. If I remember, these are the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers (red over white), the Royal Welch Fusiliers (white), the Royal Greenjackets, the Light Infantry and the Royal Irish Regiment (green). I don't think that this was anything to do with a cockade, but I may be wrong.

Officer cadets are supposed to wear a white patch behind their beret badge. A good way of saying, "Aim here", I suppose. The issued patch is the size of a dinner plate. Most savvy O/Cdts use the cut-away bottom of a yoghurt pot instead.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 May 02 - 09:29 AM

Ozmacca, you suggested your comments might be wrong or misleading. Dead right. Queen Anne wasn't the sister of James, deposed by William. She was his daughter. Not that that affects the rest of your discussion in anyway, I'm just being pedantic, it's my hobby.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 23 May 02 - 03:01 PM

The same song-is alledged to have come from Somerset/Devon area, but no mention of regiment or where sent to fight. "It's true my love has listed and he wears a blue cockade" etc. Sung by Show of Hands, but I had heard it a long time ago in the Kent area sung by a local old chap in a folk club down there. Bill sables reckons it's a northern song. Many of these songs travelled up and down, undergoing transformations to fit the requirements of the singer. Can't help you much, but suspect it's Napoleonic wars.

Oxford Eng Dict-Cockade, a rosette etc worn in a hat as a badge of office-theword of French derivation.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Les from Hull
Date: 23 May 02 - 03:31 PM

HuwG - yes the hackle is different to the cockade - it's more like a shaving brush, and in Napoleonic times it was white over red for everybody but riflemen (green) and grenadiers (white), as far as I remember.

I've heard the song as the 'blue' cockade, but no-one that I know of wore a blue cockade either, at least not in our armed forces. The cockade was a national thing and the British/UK one is black.

So I tend to think of the white/blue cockade as a local mark for a new recruit, or he's enlisted in a militia or volunteer unit.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,ozmacca
Date: 23 May 02 - 06:59 PM

Greg, I stand - or at any rate sit - corrected. Ta.

On the subject of the cockade, rosette, ribbon, sprig of vegetation, feather, vegetable, bit of old tat etc etc etc that was worn as a distinguishing mark - Wilfried and all the others are spot on. In the days when the troops were any old mob of peasants dragged along by the local gentry, some form of identification was absolutely necessary. Hence the first need for a bunch of ribbons etc etc. which usually reflected some part of the insignia or heraldic coat of arms of the twit up front on the horse. the trained men-at-arms would already wear some family badge to show who they belonged to, so it would be natural to use the same colours or the same badge in a simpler form. Probably the best known example of this type of general marking would be the cross worn by crusaders.

When permanent units of a standing army were formed, clothing was issued, and the most commonly available products used. Hence, or so I believe, the red coat of the British army, because trade and colonisation in the West indies had produced a large cheap quantity of "madder" dye. Although equipment was generally standardised, the colonel raising the regiment under the royal commission was paid to dress the troops and had a pretty free hand in the way of other markings, so to prevent confusion between regiments, it was usual to display "facings", cuffs, collars etc of different colours or have different buttoning patterns. I think the royal French armies up to the mid 18th century used the number of buttons on the pockets to differentiate between regiments, on otherwise plain light grey/white coats. Must have been interesting....

Colour parties would carry the regimental standard as well as the royal or national standard. The regimental colour was really a kind of continuation of the earlier twit on the horse's personal banner, and the royal colour indicated that your lot were officiallly part of the army. Together these showed everybody who your mob were, and who you belonged to, so that, hopefully, you would not be used for target practice by your mates in the smoke of battle. A symbol from the regimental colour would normally be displayed on the cap-badge, and maybe on the coat collar.

The use of another badge would then seem to be superfluous, but the British army has always made the idea of uniformity when applied to uniforms almost laughable. Troops would pick a sprig of leaves, or a chicken feather to unofficially mark themselves as being something special, and this would be associated with the action fought at the time. Next thing you know, the chicken feather has become a hackle and part of the officially approved dress, and so on...

The use of a cockade as an item to mark a special occassion such as the death of the monarch is just another pint of bat's blood in the brew as far as identifying regular regiments are concerned.

Anyway, thanks for reading so far... Guess what one of my interests is?

Looking forward to a thread on regimental or battle songs.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Mr Red
Date: 23 May 02 - 07:05 PM

PM the Walrus - he is into his military history.
How is your session at Middletown nr Welshpool -Breidden Hotel going? The last Wed must be next Wed? Right.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: DonD
Date: 23 May 02 - 08:40 PM

Was I misinformed that one can still tell which regiment is Changing the Guard at Buckingham Palace by the grouping of the buttons on their otherwise indistinguishable uniforms (except for the Gurhkas, of course.)


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,ozmacca
Date: 23 May 02 - 09:33 PM

I think so, DonD. The regiments of foot guards have their buttons grouped in the numbers appropriate to their own regimental numbers. Ist Regiment of Foot Guards, single buttons, 2nd Regt, 2 buttons and so on. This all derives from the time when the original regimental names, usually taken from the colonel who raised them, were dropped in favour of numbers. The numbers were later dropped, usually in favour of locality identification. Now, your starter for 10, which is which?.... Grenadier, Coldstream, Scots, Irish, Welsh?

The famous bearskin headgear is popularly accepted to be a momento of their action at Waterloo when they broke the French Imperial Guard, who wore a generally similar headgear. Well, maybe, but.... Anyway, I always liked the look of the very practical short "Belgic" shako which seems to have disappeared completely from british full dress uniforms, although versions of the "pickelhaub" are occassionally seen. Something else to blame Prince Albert for, I suspect.

Grenadiers always used to wear a tall narrow hat or cap anyway, partly to distinguish them as a special purpose group within an infantry regiment, and partly so it wouln't get in the way when throwing the early grenade - a sort of hollow iron ball filled with instant bang and with an exposed fuse which the soldier lit before throwing.

Now, fer Gawd's sake, will somebody stop me running off at the keyboard and let somebody else have a go....... Who started this anyway - it's all your fault - help!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Teribus
Date: 24 May 02 - 08:01 AM

I have heard the following - perhaps someone can verify it.

The 2nd Royal Dragoon Guards or Royal Scots Dragoon Guards, Scots Greys or Royal North British Dragoons. The guys on the grey horses at Waterloo, whose Sergeant Ewart captured the eagle of the French 45th regiment.

Where did their name originate - i.e the Scots Greys?

One story I heard was that it dates back to the English civil war when the Scottish Parliament threw in it's lot with the English Parliamentary forces. The decision was that Parliamentary forces were to wear red - this being so the Scots would have had to buy red cloth from England. The Scots refused to do this ("Whit d'ye think am made o money!!!!) as they had lots of plain woven hodden grey cloth - and they used this to outfit the cavalry they sent to aid the English Parliamentary forces in the North of England.

I have also heard the version of the song that has the blue cockade - judging by the location of the song is it possibly naval as the words I heard involved people setting sail to fight or could it have anything to do with Monmouths Rebellion?

Cheers,

Bill.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: HuwG
Date: 24 May 02 - 08:57 AM

ozmacca - The Regiments of Foot Guards in the British Army have actually lost their regimental numbers, which were in use during the Napoleonic Wars. The grouping of buttons denote the regiment's seniority. Grenadiers - 1; Coldstream - 2; Scots - 3; Irish - 4; Welsh - 5. You could say seniority = number, but the British Army always refers to Guards regiments by title (often as initials, such as 1/WG = 1st Battalion, the Welsh Guards).

Likewise, numbers are rarely used to denote Line Regiments, although there are very few left which have not been so amalgamated that their number looks like a winning lottery combination. I think there are still the Royal Scots (1st), Prince of Wales's Own (Yorkshire) Regiment (14th), Royal Welch Fusiliers (23rd). As with Guardsmen, titles are always used e.g. 1/DWR = 1st Battalion, the Duke of Wellington's Regiment.

In the last few years, the Armoured (cavalry) Regiments have also lost their numbers. There used to be a profusion of "Fraction Cavalry" e.g. the 14th/20th Hussars. The 16th/5th Lancers were the only one where for some reason the senior regiment on amalgamation had the higher number, they were often referred to as the "Vulgar Fraction".

I'm sure there must be a site out there somewhere which lists present and past British Regimental marches, I'll see if I can find it. As you might have guessed from the amount of b*ll I am spouting, I was once in uniform, in the 2nd Battalion, the Yorkshire Volunteers (2/YORKS), a now defunct Territorial Army unit. Its regimental quick march was, yes you've guessed it, "On Ilkley Moor bar't Hat".

Teribus - I don't know about the Scots Greys wearing hodden grey during the (English) Civil War. One interesting detail - the song, "All the Blue Bonnets are bound for the Border" dates from the Bishop's War of 1639 - 1640, which immediately preceded the ECW. When Charles I tried to impose an episcopacy and a new prayer book on Scotland, the Scots Covenanters formed a large army and invaded England; they captured Newcastle-upon-Tyne before Charles gave in. This army was issued with blue bonnets as a distinguishing piece of uniform.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Les from Hull
Date: 24 May 02 - 01:12 PM

The Prince of Wales Own (Yorkshire) Regiment also includes the 15th Foot - The East Yorkshires (and possibly others too).


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: The Walrus
Date: 24 May 02 - 03:42 PM

A little before the Napoleonic Wars, the official title of the Scots Greys was "The 2nd (Royal North British) Dragoons", as they were recruited in Scotland and rode grey horses, they earned the nickname "the Scots Greys", this became formallised (officially) later as the "Royal Scots Greys". As for the original question of an English regiment wearing a white cockade, the only one I can think of, off hand, was the Manchester Regiment, who fought for the Jacobite cause in the '45, those that hadn't deserted by the last battle were either sliced-and-diced at Culloden (and it's aftermath) or shared the fate of the highland prisoners (IIRC most of the captured officers were executed except the Colonel, who could prove that he was a serving French officer and therefore couldn't be a traitor to George II).

Walrus


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 24 May 02 - 09:09 PM

Yep...thats what I'd heard about the Scots Greys - apparently in the 'horsey set', a white horse is always termed a grey anyway (or it was in times past anyhow, I dont know about now). The grey cloth mentioned by Teribus is interesting though....& maybe has some truth in it, who knows?

The Grenadier Shako (not the Bearskin, which was, yes, because of the British Foot Guards playing a big part in breaking of the Grenadiers of the Old Guard at Waterloo) came in because the Bicorn hat would get in the way, as Ozmacca said.

Regiments that havent been amalgamated? Not many - The Green Howards (previously the 19th Foot, but originally Luttrell's Regt. (that predating Colonel Howard, & the green 'facing' colour even) is one, & the Duke of Wellingtons Regt. (33rd Foot...cant remember their original (ie: Colonel's name)) is another. There are a couple more I think, but cant remember them offhand... I'll have to look them up.

Prince of Wales Own Regiment Of Yorkshire was formed just from the West Yorkshire Regt. & the East Yorkshire Regt. - in 1968 I think it was, along with a large number of others.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: The Walrus
Date: 25 May 02 - 07:30 PM

Paul,

I'm sorry to contradict you, but

"...The Grenadier Shako (not the Bearskin, which was, yes, because of the British Foot Guards playing a big part in breaking of the Grenadiers of the Old Guard at Waterloo) came in because the Bicorn hat would get in the way, ..."

The first specialised "grenadier" headgear (which appeared at the turn of the 18th century) was the mitre cap (a heavily embroidered and badged cap shaped -surprisingly - like a bishop's mitre) - the shako didn't come into service with the British army until about a hundred years later in 1800, by which time the mitre had disappeared to be replaced by the "bearskin cap", about the same size and shape (from the front) as the mitre, with a metal regimental plate (enamelled or painted I believe) just above the eyes. For campaign wear the bearskin was replaced by the shako (first the "stovepipe" then the "Belgic" pattern) with a white "plume" (for non commissioned ranks, usually made of worsted). The breaking of Napoleon's Old Guard led to *whole* battalions of the Foot Guards regiments wearing the bearskin as opposed to only one (grenagier)company per battalion.

Regards

Walrus


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Gareth
Date: 25 May 02 - 07:37 PM

If my limited knowledge of the subject is correct Grenadier's companies or battalions were issued with the mitre cap so as not to obstruct the throwing of Grenades, which the old Tricorn caps did.

A bearskin, was issued, post Waterloo, to comemorate the defeat of Nappoleons Gaurds at Waerloo.

Walrus, can you comment ? - Sorry I'am better at naval history for this era.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: The Walrus
Date: 25 May 02 - 07:53 PM

Gareth,

You are correct on the origin of the mitre cap, but the mitre *became* the bearskin cap over the course of the 18th century, however, up until Waterloo, it was restricted to grenadiers only (The battalion was divided into eight companies, one grenadier, one light and six "battalion" or "hat" companies). On some occasions, all the grenadier companies of a brigade could be formed as an ad hoc composite grenadier battalion (likewise, composite light battalions could be formed before the advent of specilist Light Infantry).
After Waterloo, the headdress concession to the Foot Guards was that THE WHOLE BATTALION (not just the Grenadiers) would wear the grenadier bearskin.

Regards

Walrus


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,re-enactor 23rd RWF
Date: 26 May 02 - 02:23 PM

The 23rd wore a fur hat as Walrus described before Waterloo, It was never a "bearskin" but a fusileer cap,the bearskin was a lot bigger .
Then bayonet issued with the baker rifle was a sword bayonet with a handle and a lot longer than the 17-19 inch socket bayonet issued with the brown bess.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,23rd
Date: 26 May 02 - 02:35 PM

You might like to check out these two sites.
click
click


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,ozmacca
Date: 26 May 02 - 10:30 PM

Just a point of more local interest for me about the Greys. The 2nd Dragoon Guards were raised not far from my home town under the command of "Bloody Tam" Dalyell, and were hardly what you would call a popular regiment at the time of their inception as they were used to break up open-air church services being conducted in defiance of the king's orders about reforming the Scottish church. Strange that they remained as the only scottish regiment of horse to be part of the regular army list.

Together with the Inniskillings and the Life Guards, they formed the "Union" brigade at Waterloo, which (as so often with British cavalry) made a magnificant charge then got out of control and were carved up by the French lancers etc... Sgt Ewart's capture of the eagle won him a commission as ensign, as evidenced by a pub which bears his name at the top end of the Royal Mile in Edinburgh, and the regiment continued to wear the French imperial eagle as part of their honours, like a few others, I believe.

I have to apologise for an earlier remark - which nobody has yet picked me up for, so maybe I should shut up - I wrote that the british red coat was a result of the availability of "madder" dye from new colonies. WRONG!!! Madder dye from her new colonies in Africa provided France with the red clouring for the trousers worn by the French armies during the 19th century and into the 20th.... Well, at least I got the name of the dye right....


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: ozmacca
Date: 27 May 02 - 07:00 AM

HuWG, I always liked the old numbers system... Maybe I just wanted to win the lottery... Your comments about the use of numbering in amalgamated units reminded me of my stint in the Australian Army Reserve. I served in two units, the 2/3 and the 5/11, both Field Artillery regiments, the latter being defined as a Field Artillery (light)armed with the old L5 Pack Howitzer. The interesting part is we referred to 2/3 as "second-third", while the 5/11 was always spoken of as "Five-Eleven". Reason there was none, so far as I could ever find out...... Oh, and our badge was the same old Gun that wouldn't fire, the wheel that wouldn't turn and the ....... (ex-gunnies will know) which the Royal Artillery use. Come to that, everything we had used to be British - or American - or Canadian - or Italian.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: HuwG
Date: 27 May 02 - 09:15 AM

Paul from Hull, sorry to contradict, but the Duke of Wellington's Regiment, the 33rd, were amalgamated with another, I think the 76th, in 1969.

To add my two penn'orth to the debate on bearskins; the original mitre cap worn by grenadiers, which seems purpose-made to fall off, was replaced by the time of the American War of Independence by a much lower model, which had a fur edging to the front plate. It is usually referred to as a "Grenadier Cap". (British) Regiments of Fusiliers wore this also.

The whacking great fur edifice on top of Napoleon's Garde (and British Guards since Waterloo) is a rather fantastic development of this Grenadier Cap. It would obviously be most unsuitable for fighting in the woods of North America, but it gave a man more apparent height and presence on battlefields in Europe.

During the French and Indian Wars (1756 - 1760), some British (and "Colonial") Light Infantry units wore a leather or stout cloth cap very like a deerstalker, complete with earflaps. By the time of the War of Independence, it had sprouted a less-than-practical decorative front plate, and a plume.

I seem to recall that during the Anglo-American War of 1812, one Canadian light infantry unit, the "Voltigeurs", wore a small bearskin, barely larger than a jockey's cap; this would have been both more prestigious and more practical than a foot-high "stovepipe" shako.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 27 May 02 - 12:52 PM

Well, as I said on the 'Regimental Songs' Thread, I really shouldnt post late at night when half my brain is asleep...*G*

Thanks, Walrus! It was a cock-up that I said Shako at all...*G*

Huw, off the top of my head, I THINK the '76th' was the old designation for the 'Dukes' 2nd Battalion anyway, though I might be mistaken in that. Nevertheless, the 'Dukes' still do 'soldier on', as best I'm aware.

Thanks for posting those links, '23rd'...I hadnt seen the song site before at all, & it looks useful!


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,ozmacca
Date: 27 May 02 - 07:37 PM

HuwG - re colonial light infantry and the French & Indian Wars - Am I right in thinking that Roger's Rangers (raised in North America for the crown - and armed with non-standardised rifles and dressed in green!) wore a kind of oversize beret with a loose baggy crown? Got vague memories of seeing something along those lines.

Incidentally, I like the "whacking great fur edifice" description. If it's bad enough on a foot soldier , think how much the 2nd Dragoons (Scots Greys) would have appreciated being equipped with it!


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Teribus
Date: 28 May 02 - 02:04 AM

"Incidentally, I like the "whacking great fur edifice" description. If it's bad enough on a foot soldier , think how much the 2nd Dragoons (Scots Greys) would have appreciated being equipped with it!"

As Ozmacca points out (quote above) the 2nd RNB Dragoons I think are the only heavy cavalry regiment ever to wear bearskins. They wore them prior to the Napoleonic times, having won the right to wear them from a previous battle in the early or mid 1700's.

This continued to preserve the British tradition of going to war with totally inadequate footwear and totally inappropriate headgear.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,ozmacca
Date: 28 May 02 - 03:06 AM

Teribus ... and the same comment goes for clothing, weapons, logistics, tactics, commanders..... the list goes on. But fear not! Britain stands not alone! It appears that most armies representing long established governments throughout history have done much the same thing. It always seems to take either a defeat of major proportions, or a completely new hand at the top to bring in anything that smacks of - shock horror - progress. As has been pointed out elsewhere in this thread, small things get bigger, plain things get fancy, useful things get hung on to after their usefulness is long over, and the poor sod in the red coat / red trousers / kilt / cuirass / bell-top shako / bicorne / tin-can tank gets to reap the immediate, often painful, consequences.

Or maybe it only seems like the generals are always ready to fight the last war. God alone knows what the politicians are ready to fight.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,Keith A o Hertford
Date: 28 May 02 - 03:32 AM

When I joined the reserves in 1972, the only waterproof item of kit was the steel helmet!
It wasn't till after the Falklands in 82 we got high boots with sewn in tongue. In that conflict Brit squaddies would take the boots from Argentine dead.
There's a long trail a winding,
Keith.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: HuwG
Date: 28 May 02 - 08:49 AM

ozmacca, quite right re. Roger's Rangers. They were colonials, who dressed much as they pleased. I think a scotch bonnet, which seems to be what you describe, was common among them though not standard issue. As you say, they found green a useful colour; I think I have seen a picture of one wearing Indian mocassins (spelling?) and other items of Indian apparel, including a Tomahawk.

During the French and American wars (I am relying on the invaluable Francis Parkman, "Montcalm and Wolfe" here), there was one regiment, "Gage's Light Infantry", which was the 80th in the Army listing; it was disbanded after the wars. I don't know whether its men were British or Americans or both. It wore brown clothing and had the deerstalker hat which I described in an earlier post. There was also another all-British, regiment, the 55th, which its Colonel, Augustus Howe, converted to light infantry; its breeches and belts (though not their jackets) were dyed brown or green and they cut their tricorne hats down to the dimensions of a bowler. And, as The Walrus said, the light companies of all the battalions in a division or an army were often brigaded together in ad-hoc light battalions (as were the grenadier companies). The light infantrymen would presumably all wear something less clumsy and conspicuous than a tricorne.

ozmacca, teribus and Keith A o Hertford, please don't get me started on the inadequacies of issued equipment, I could go on all day. I do recall that after a few days on exercise, the phrase "uniform" had gone to rats**t, as all sorts of personal items and bodges replaced broken or missing bits, and people devised their own methods for securing awkward loads (mostly using those great roadies' all-purpose items, gaffer tape or black insulating tape). This applied especially to the TA, the Regulars looked a bit more orthodox. However, I love some of the shocked descriptions which the US troops on the Cunning Plan, alias Operation Desert Sabre, applied to British troops. The US soldiers prided themselves on looking and sounding alike; British troops preferred to look unique.

What was this thread about ? Oh yes, white cockades ? I rather suspect that, except for coups and rebellions, cockades were less a device for identifying troops in action, than an affirmation of nationality or allegiance. Wellington apparently had four cockades tacked to his hat at Waterloo; British, Dutch, Spanish and Portugese. (He was a Field Marshal, or honorary Field Marshal, in the armies of each of these countries).

White cockades were apparently sported by supporters of both the French Bourbon monarchs and the British Stuarts (i.e. Jacobites). Reading Prebble, I think the Hanoverian cockades (used during the '45 rebellion) were black and red. Much later, the French Republican cockades were red, white and blue (naturally enough).


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 29 May 02 - 04:02 AM

Objection, HuWG - the French republican cockades were blue, white and red (just the opposite order).
To the colours of Paris, capital and seat of the National Assembly, the revolutionary red was added. It was also a break with heraldic traditions - in the older coats of arms only two colours were used. Therefore the name of the French flag, the Tricolore, was unique in its youth, and the three coloured flag was always associated with revolutionary France.
The Union Jack doesn't count here, since it is an amalgam of four coats of arms, and the Star Spangled Banner, too, as its derivation.

Wilfried


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 29 May 02 - 05:17 AM

Let's talk a little bit about head gear:
In old army pictures I only saw tricorns, the bicorns were worn in the navies following the British example.
Some pictures of Grenadiers and their caps:
Hessian (Rgt v. Ditfurth)The regiment fought in America, 1776 - 1783

Hessian (reenacted)

Swiss A fine example of a fur lined grenadier cap, maybe the Royal Welch Fusiliers had a similar one?

Prussian

Russian (Pavlov's Grenadier Regiment)

Prussian (1. Regiment Foot Guards) and Russian (Pavlov's Grenadier Regiment)

British

British

60th Royal American And here a sample of the hat cut back. It follows the grenadier tradition of brimless headgear to be better enabled for throwing the grenades.
And here some observations of the name grenadier:
As Cpt Graves writes in his memories, the title grenadier was held a name of honour with the old grenadier units albeit they had abandoned the use of the hand grenade. When this device came in use again in the trenches of WWI, the old grenadiers watched jealously over their title, and the guys actually throwing the grenades (or "bombs") were called not grenadiers, but bombers. One of the marvels of the new German army is that the foot soldier is called armoured grenadier (Panzergrenadier, even when he is motorized) and is fighting like a light infantrist (Jäger)
By the way, Guest,23rd - guessing from the number, could it be that you are or have been wearing the flash?

Wilfried


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: ozmacca
Date: 29 May 02 - 05:27 AM

ust a quick note.. I assume everybody is following both threads - this and Regimental Songs - which seem to be neatly parallelling each other. Some excellent material here guys.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: The Walrus at work
Date: 29 May 02 - 09:00 AM

Wilfred,

May I correct your correction ?
The French Revolutionary cockade was (from the outside)White-Blue-Red (or in some cases white-red-blue), the cockades in Parisian colours (red & blue) being overlaid on the Boubon white cockade.

Regfards

Walrus


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: HuwG
Date: 30 May 02 - 07:15 AM

My last post to this thread ... Nigel Parsons, re Welsh units wearing leeks instead of a cockade; I haven't heard of that as a custom. (Some) Welsh units do indeed attach leeks to their headgear, on St. David's Day (Dydd gwyl Dewi Sant), March 1st. Although not in a Welsh unit, I did don a leek which Max Boyce might have envied on one March 1st, and discovered that Senior NCOs' sense of humour is very much a one-way process...

I suspect that leeks issued for wearing would probably have been eaten immediately, especially on active service. I note that when vegetation was used as a distinguishing mark, it was usually inedible. I have heard of oak leaves being used as such; also thistles, even though these might present problems.

One interesting bit of trivia re. this debate on Grenadier Caps and Fusilier Caps occurred to me. One famous battle of the British Army was Minden, in Germany, in 1760. The six British infantry units present marched through a park or garden before taking position, and five of the six plucked roses and stuck them in their (tricorne) hats. Their descendants (sorry, don't know which units these are) may wear roses in their headgear every year on "Minden Day". The one regiment which did not join in this dressing-up was the 23rd, the Royal Welch Fusiliers. I can only assume that this is because they were all wearing Mitre caps or Fusilier Caps, which did not have anywhere convenient to attach a very thorny piece of flora.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Les from Hull
Date: 30 May 02 - 12:56 PM

Slight thread creep here - what the RAF now calls a roundel was originaly called a cockade.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,ozmacca
Date: 31 May 02 - 01:50 AM

HuwG, I know what you mean by senior NCO sense of humour. We did get our own back on a BSM at the last battery parade which he presided over before his retirement. Every body on parade in best black belt and brass order, dress "polys" with slouch hats. Drilled to perfection and every order beautiffully exectuted. He watched us for twenty minutes before he realised that every single hat was on backwards, with turned up brim on the wrong side........

Such language........


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Yorkie
Date: 04 Jun 02 - 08:51 AM

I'm very new to this Discussion Forum thing (indeed, I'm very new to the Web) so I'm amazed at the number of responses. I thought it might take a couple of weeks before anyone even saw the question. Thanks to everyone, even the ones that went off at tangents – there's some really interesting bits of info that I never knew I wanted to know. Thanks especially to the ones that actually tried to answer the question; to Guest 23rd for the very useful links to other sites; to Mr Red, yes the Breidden session is always the last Wednesday in the month. Lots of great musicians and singers hand-picked by word-of-mouth. By the way, thanks for your Cresby.com site; to Greg Stephens, hello again, our paths haven't crossed for quite a while. Still Boating? I'm still Taxi-ing.(Contact Rees for PM) Now then, back to the question: - Walrus mentions the Manchester Regiment. Could that be the answer – that these various song references all go back to the Manchester lads? No, for pity's sake, I'm a Yorkshireman! Anyway, it doesn't sound like any of them survived their trip to Culloden. Also, the Scottish connection doesn't seem to fit with the reference later in the song about "I wish that the Hollanders would sink him in the sea". Several versions talk about marrying "in Newcastle when I return again" (That's one reason that I think these songs come from the North-East) but I've never heard one that mentions Manchester. So, although that seems to be the strongest contender so far, I'm afraid we may have to look further.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 04 Jun 02 - 10:19 AM

HuwG - Unfortunately I found only one unit connected with the battle of Minden:
Minden Boys, The: The Lancashire Fusiliers. Through the Ist Battalion as the 20th Foot ... (Fraser, Edward: Soldier and sailor words and phrases : including slang of the trenches and the Air Force ; ... / comp. by Edward Fraser and John Gibbons. - London : George Routledge & Sons, 1925. - pg. 191-192). The "unsurpassable six" British infantry regiments are mentioned, but not definitely named except the L. F.
ozmacca - Fine story about your BSM; the NCOs seem only to be able to note single faults, but not uniformly performed ones because no one is sticking out. We did it, too. After a longer salute drill done squadwise the Seargent Major did the evaluation, the platoon passing in a single file and everyone doing a very smart salute (it's difficult in the German way, especially forming the straight line with forearm and side of the hand). Normally he should have gone ekstatic, but he didn't. There must have been something wrong, but he couldn't name it. After leaving boot camp we told him: the entire platoon had performed the salute with the LEFT hand. Draftees' revenge.

Wilfried


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Snuffy
Date: 04 Jun 02 - 12:19 PM

The Suffolks were at Minden: their depot in Bury St Edmunds was named Minden Barracks in honour of this. They used to wear a rose on the anniversary of the battle. And there is a pub near the old barracks called the Minden Rose.

WassaiL! V


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jun 02 - 02:51 AM

The Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th Regiment of Foot also took part at Minden, their Regimental Museum in Berwick has a good section on it.

There is also a pub in Portsmouth called "The Rose of Minden"

Cheers,

Bill


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Gareth
Date: 08 Jun 02 - 11:18 AM

Bit Late - But this is what I have found on the "Minden Regiments"

Minden 1759

The battle commenced at first light with Prince Ferdinand's forces forming-up in eight columns to attack the French positions. Making up the third column were six British Infantry battalions, the 12th (Suffolk) Regiment, 20th (Lancashire Fusiliers), 23rd (Royal Welsh Fusiliers), 25th (Kings Own Scottish Borderers), 37th (Hampshire) Regiment and the 51st (Yorkshire Light Infantry). These together with two Hanoverian Guards battalions and a line battalion were all under the command of Major General Spoerke and divided into two Brigades, the 12th, 23rd and 37th leading with the 20th, 25th and 51St supporting.

These two Brigades were to bear the brunt of the attack at Minden, as through some misunderstanding of orders they set off for the attack before the rest of the line had been properly formed. With drums beating and colours flying they bore down on the massed French cavalry passing through the crossfire of 66 cannon. The astonished cavalry having gathered itself charged the leading brigade. At a distance of only ten yards the infantry poured a devastating volley into the horsemen who were thrown back in confusion, the advance then continued. Further fierce attacks by cavalry and later French Infantry were repulsed by the British and Hanoverians, who were now being supported by other units of Prince Ferdinand's army. By 10 am the French were routed and fell back on Minden harassed by the British Artillery. Had Lord Sackville only attacked with the cavalry the victory would have been as complete as Blenheim.

Minden is remarkable for this unique attack by Infantry in line on a mass of cavalry, which although supported by artillery was nevertheless defeated with heavy loss. Minden Day (1st August) is still celebrated by those British Regiments involved. During the advance it is said that the men picked wild roses, which they placed in their hats. On Minden Day the drums are decked with roses and there is an age old Rose eating ceremony in the Mess!

BTW Lord Sackville was courtmartialled and cashiered after the Battle Not to suffer the same fate as Adniral Byng.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 10 Jun 02 - 02:35 AM

Thanks, Gareth Could you give your source of reference, please?

Wilfried


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,Hobbitmum
Date: 17 May 04 - 11:33 PM

I am doing research for a book and need some information. Does anyone know if the Scots greys were involved in the Napoleonic wars in Germany (Leipzig for instance)? There are some songs I can across that suggest this, ie. My Bonie Light Horseman, and High Germany both of which are sung by a group called Cherish the Ladies.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 May 04 - 02:55 PM

High Germany is I think pre Napoleonic, and Willy does not sound like a cavalryman.
The versions I know of Bonny Light Horseman do not suggest where exactly he was serving. The Scots Greys ,as you will know Hobbitmum, were at Waterloo.
Keith.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: The Walrus
Date: 18 May 04 - 04:28 PM

Hobbitmum,

"The Bonny Light Horseman" would be wrong for the Scots Greys as they were classified as Heavy Cavalry (Horsemen who's main role on battle was 'shock' - solid masses of cavalry hitting formations as one lump to disrupt and destroy).
The Light Cavalry regiments (in Britain, Hussars, Light Dragoons and, later, Lancers) were used for scouting, raiding and pursuit of broken formations or disrupting skirmish lines (swarms rather than the mailed fist).

Any help?

Walrus


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 May 04 - 07:13 PM

and there was me thinking it was about penile splints -a white cock aid. Some regimesnts wore black nylon - you can get different colours nowadays.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Snuffy
Date: 18 May 04 - 08:34 PM

"My bonny light horseman returning from Spain" - not that close to Leipzig.

High Germany could well be Leipzig, but British troops were there on and off from ca 1700-1815 and no indication in the song of which period it refers to, but I always thought it was 1750s rather than Napoleonic


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,ozmacca
Date: 18 May 04 - 09:47 PM

Hobbitmum, There is a good set of links to potted histories for the Greys (and just about every other British regiment - plus many others) at

http://www.regiments.org/milhist/regtintro/index.htm

and a good lightweight description for the Greys at

http://www.btinternet.com/~james.mckay/rsg.htm

The Greys were in Europe a fair bit before the Napoleonic Wars, and during it, and they have the Battle Honours to prove it. They were certainly at Minden and Warburg before the Napoleonic Wars, and also at Willems in the Flanders campaign in 1794.

However, as the Walrus says, they could never be described as "Light Horsemen".

The lists for British Cavalry at 1800 include the following, so you pays your money and you takes your choice. You would have to check all of these out to see who was where and when.... Rather you than me. However,

http://www.regiments.org/milhist/uk/lists/ba1800.htm

will give the links to find battle Honours and histories. One of them might be the one!...

Household Cavalry

1st Regiment of Life Guards   
2nd Regiment of Life Guards   
Royal Horse Guards Blues   

Cavalry

1st (The King's) Dragoon Guards   
2nd (The Queen's) Regiment of Dragoon Guards   
3rd (The Prince of Wales's) Dragoon Guards   
4th (Royal Irish) Dragoon Guards redes 1788 from 1st Horse
5th Regiment of Dragoon Guards   redes 1788 from 2nd Horse
6th Regiment of Dragoon Guards   redes 1788 from 3rd Horse
7th (The Princess Royal's) Dragoon Guards   redes 1788 from 4th Horse
   
1st (Royal) Regiment of Dragoons   
2nd (Royal North British) Regiment of Dragoons   
3rd (King's Own) Regiment of Dragoons   
4th (Queen's Own) Regiment of Dragoons   
[5th Dragoons]   vacant
6th (Inniskilling) Dragoons   
7th (or Queen's Own) Regiment of (Light) Dragoons   
8th (The King's Royal Irish) Regiment of (Light) Dragoons   
9th Regiment of (Light) Dragoons   
10th (Prince of Wales's Own Royal) Regiment of (Light) Dragoons   
11th Regiment of (Light) Dragoons   
12th (The Prince of Wales's) Regiment of (Light) Dragoons   
13th Regiment of (Light) Dragoons   
14th (The Duchess of York's Own) Regiment of (Light) Dragoons subtitle added 1798
15th (The King's) Regiment of (Light) Dragoons   
16th (or The Queen's Own) Regiment of (Light) Dragoons   
17th Regiment of (Light) Dragoons   
18th Regiment of (Light) Dragoons    1821
19th Regiment of (Light) Dragoons    1821
20th (or Jamaica) Regiment of (Light) Dragoons 1792 1818
21st Regiment of (Light) Dragoons 1794 1820
22nd Regiment of (Light) Dragoons 1794 1802
23rd Regiment of (Light) Dragoons 1794 1802
24th Regiment of (Light) Dragoons 1794 1802
25th Regiment of (Light) Dragoons 1794 renumb 22nd1802 1820
26th Regiment of (Light) Dragoons 1794 renumb 23rd1802 1819
27th Regiment of (Light) Dragoons 1794 renumb 24th1802 1819
28th Regiment of (Light) Dragoons 1795 1802
29th Regiment of (Light) Dragoons


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 19 May 04 - 02:27 AM

Hobbitmum,

With regard for the two songs you mention "Bonny Light Horseman" and "High Germany". The first is definitely Napoleonic in terms of time, the latter could be either Wars of the Spanish Succession or Seven Years War.

You should also take a close look at where the area described as "High Germany" was in those times.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 04 - 05:43 AM

"High Germany" is normally understood to be the Southern part of what became the German federation, while "Low Germany" was the northern part..... it says here...

. http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/2407/german.htm#HIGH%20AND%20LOW%20GERMAN

so the soldier who went to fight in "High Germany" could have been anywhere in the southern part of the country, or in Austria even... maybe Minden and other actions in that campaign?


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 04 - 05:57 PM

The idea that the "folk" would preserve accurate historical detail through traditional songs has long been discredited, even Karl Dallas has recanted on this. Just enjoy the songs.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Les from Hull
Date: 19 May 04 - 07:04 PM

The only British troops at Leipzig were the Royal Horse Artillery Rocket Troop (with Colonel Congreve) and 4 Light Dragoons who formed an escort for General (Wilson?) who was there as an military attache/advisor. I think anyway. If it matters that much get back to me and I'll check my sources.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Hrothgar
Date: 20 May 04 - 07:07 AM

The 5th mustn't have always been vacant, ozmacca, because evetually they were merged with the 16th (lancers by then) to form the 16/5th Royal Irish Lancers.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 20 May 04 - 01:43 PM

Wilfried ... you said "The Union Jack doesn't count here, since it is an amalgam of four coats of arms,

Do you mean the Union Jack or the Union Flag -- I thought the Union Flag was an amalgam of only three, no?


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Les from Hull
Date: 20 May 04 - 05:25 PM

5th cavalry regiments - There was always a 5th Dragoon Guards, Princess Charlotte of Wales' Dragoon Guards, later the Royal Inniskilling Dragoon Guards.

The 5th light cavalry regiment I seem to remember was an Irish regiment that was disbanded for mutiny or something before the Napoleonic Wars but after the Wars another regiment was formed -the Royal Irish Lancers. It was this regiment which was combined in 1922 with the 16th Queen's Lancers (previously the 16th (Queen's) Light Dragoons to form the 16th/5th Lancers. Maybe the order of precedence was something to do with the fact the 'Irish' part was less relevant to the Crown in 1922.

And yes BPL - three arms in our flag; St George, St Andrew and St Patrick. Just don't get me going about the 'couterchange of saltires'.

Les


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,Anne Croucher
Date: 20 May 04 - 06:48 PM

I thought the cockade was green. That is what I sing.

The more I learn about customs and traditions of the armed forces the more I wonder what it is about putting on uniform that removes a man's natural common sense.

Rose petals are edible and give wine a nice touch of the exotic but you have to take them off the middle part and remove the white bit at the bottom because it contains enzymes which destroy the aroma - the habit of eating a whole rose on the annversry of the Battle of Minden is likely to require the application of the Heimlech manouver. A breathed in rose petal is difficult to dislodge.

One of the madder caesars once drowned quite a few of his guests in a downpouring of rose petals - probably accidentally - he ordered a shower of rose petals and I expect they didn't want him to feel they were being stingy.

Anne


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 04 - 07:44 PM

Anne - Much earlier in this thread I thought it was generally agreed that the cockade is usually not really part of the regimental dress, but an additional badge, either formal or informal. It was worn for a number of reasons - from designating a special favour bestowed upon the wearer, through to which side you're on in a civil war. The colour depends on any one of those reasons, so the green cockade which you sing about is likely to have been worn by irregulars, militia, or rebels during one of the innumerable Irish troubles... or something.

And although many a soldier at Minden on inadequate rations might have wanted to rip up vegetables from the farmlands they were marching through, they were stuck with roses. The average soldier being what he was (thieving ratbags), they grabbed them instead and stuck them in their hats. There is (perhaps fortunately) no tradition of actually eating them. Putting on a uniform makes you look the same as your mates, but doesn't make you altogether stupid....


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,hobbitmum
Date: 20 May 04 - 08:21 PM

Thanks to all who posted to answer my questions. In checking with some others sources, ie websites and books, I came across the fact that The Scots Greys were indeed heavy cavalry, and not what I was looking for. The 4 light dragoons would definetey work, Les, but where were they from? My character is from the Edinburgh area, where he is a lawyer and a member of the Royal Scots Volunteer Light Dragoons a "home" militia formed by Sir Walter Scott in 1797. He joins The Royal Scots 4th Regiment, which was basically at home but sends units out to suppliment the other three-1st in America, 2ND IN Eygpt, the West Indies and India, and the 3rd in Corunna through Waterloo. And Snuffy the version I have doesn't have the Bonny Light Horseman returning from Spain. He is slain as he rides in to the battle, in my version. Thanks for the links, I will check them out.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,ozmacca
Date: 20 May 04 - 08:51 PM

Hobbitmum, The 4th Light Dragoons (now the 4th Queen's Own Hussars)were originally raised as a regiment of six troops of Dragoons in Wessex in 1685 by the Honourable John Berkeley, as part of Parliament's reaction to the Monmouth Rebellion. Berkeley married Barbara Villiers, a friend of King's younger daughter, Anne. The regiment was then known as "The Princess Anne of Denmark's Regiment of Dragoons." (How do you fancy answering the phone for that lot?) The regiment fought for the crown during the Glorious Revolution, then switched to support William of Orange in 1688. They fought their first action in Scotland against royalists in 1689. They were commanded by Colonel Fitzhardinge in 1690, and the Princess title was dropped.

The regimental history is at

http://www.qrh.org.uk/history4a.htm


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Les from Hull
Date: 21 May 04 - 01:15 PM

When I say 4 light dragoons, I mean just the four of them (they might have had a corporal as well). I'm not sure of the number of their regiment, I'll have to get back to you on that.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST
Date: 22 May 04 - 02:30 PM

Thanks Les, that would help. I guess I'm looking for a unit, but four would do as they were reconnaisence. I'm trying to place this character and some of his close friends who would be serving under him in a larger unit. They could for the story's sake be only four during that part of the story. That would certainly make sense and make it easier to write.
Hobbitmum


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 22 May 04 - 05:30 PM

BigPinkLad - My fault, counting Wales as a separate kingdom.
The Union Flag, or Union Jack, is the national flag of the United Kingdom and it is so called because it embodies the emblems of the three countries united under one Sovereign - the kingdoms of England and Wales, of Scotland and of Ireland (although since 1921 only Northern Ireland has been part of the United Kingdom).
...
The Welsh dragon does not appear on the Union Flag. This is because when the first Union Flag was created in 1606, the Principality of Wales by that time was already united with England and was no longer a separate principality.

http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/page398.asp

Beg your pardon
Wilfried


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,Anne Croucher
Date: 22 May 04 - 06:03 PM

Honest - on Battle of Minden Eve the 'Mindenites' sit around in the mess and EAT ROSES. I knows cos I seed em doin it. And one of them did choke and change colour quite alarmingly. First aid was not required, fortunately but he was a bit quiet for the rest of the evening.

The green cockade was apparently issued to volunteers sent to Ireland but just when I can't find out - or how many times -

Now I never said they became stupid - some of the predicaments I have heard about would take a good deal of ingenuity to get into and a touch of genius to extricate oneself from. Most regiments keep books to record the better ones.

Anne


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: The Walrus
Date: 22 May 04 - 08:56 PM

Hobbitmum,

You character has to transfer from Royal Scots Volunteer Light Dragoons to the Army abroad?
No problem. At this point there were no 'territorial' designations for most regiments and it was not uncommon to find recruiters from several different regiments turning up at hiring fairs and the like.
The Militia, Volunteer and 'Fencible units were also considered 'fair game' by recruiters and if your man was a 'trained' cavalryman<1>, he would be a prime target, especially if he was caught in the pre-1805 'invasion scare' (IIRC Rifleman Harris tells a similar tale of being recruited about the time of Corunna).
If a cavalry recruiter turned up at a RSVLD parade when emotion was running high, he might well leave with a recruit or two - regardless of where his regiment was 'supposed' to recruit<2>.

Regards

Walrus

<1>Levels of competence varied among some of the M,V & F units
<2> Providing the recruits could understand him, of course.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 04 - 11:22 PM

Walrus,
Thanks for the info, you have no idea how much that helped. As my character is a lawyer in civilain life I think he would have a high level of understanding. I chose to make him a captain in both the volunteers and the Light dragoons at Leipiz. Once again it's the frustration of trying to find a company that was there or if I can use "poetic lisence" could be there for the sake of the story. I know most of the people reading this story wouldn't have a clue, but it seems like if anyone here would read it they would tear that part of my story to bits. Not a pleasant thought for a neophite writer.
Thanks once again for your help.
Hobbitmum


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: HuwG
Date: 25 May 04 - 01:56 PM

A quick digression. When they originally appeared, in the early 16th Century, "Dragoons" were supposed to be mounted infantry, armed with matchlock muskets or early flintlock "snaphaunces". About the time of the English Civil Wars (1642 - 1660), most armies included regiments of these troops. But as part of an almost inevitable progression, they would find that they couldn't stand up to determined infantry (they lacked pikes) or run away from cavalry (they got the worst horses), and they exchanged their firearms for swords and became cavalymen.

This happened to *all* regiments of dragoons, light dragoons and "light horse" raised in the British army during the 17th and 18th centuries. "Light Horse" were usually volunteer units, e.g. "Kingston's Light Horse", raised in Nottingham in 1745, and present at Culloden in the following year.

Only towards the end of the 19th Century, did the "Light Horse" or mounted infantry concept become fashionable again, with the invention of the magazine rifle. In the Boer War (1899 - 1902), the British army found that their Cavalry units, burdened with lances, sabres and masses of shiny bits and pieces which all had to be polished, were crippled by two or three days' hard service, while the various colonial and british light horse units were still going, regardless of their lowly social position.

And lack of sabres and class didn't stop Australian Light Horse units performing a few dramatic and effective charges in Palestine during World War I (Beersheba, Samakh).


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Les from Hull
Date: 25 May 04 - 05:30 PM

Sorry to be pedantic, but there weren't any Captains of Light Dragoons at Leipzig, I'm not even sure about the Corporal's Guard, and I'm sure that you don't want to make him a Corporal anyway.

How about he's a Captain of Volunteers (or more correctly, Yeomanry) and he's visiting relatives in Germany. He accompanies his German or Austrian or Swedish or Russian cousin (say) on campaign and gets involved in the Battle of Nations at Leipzig. He has his uniform with him because he knows his (cousin) is in the Regular Army and doesn't want to be shown up. (In fact half the reason for having a Yeomanry Commission was the chance to wear a flash uniform, usually designed by the unit themselves).

The particular Yeomanry he would belong to would depend where in the United Kingdom he lives (they were 'local' units), and the unit he joins on campaign would depend on what you want him to experience during the battle. I couldn't find an Order of Battle for the Allied foces at the battle on the web, so that might mean a visit to the library for you.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,Hobbitmum
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 12:46 AM

Les,
Wow what a way to burst my bubble! If you can help, I have him doing scouting duty and he is with two other scouts when some of Napoleon's Artillery "discover"them and he is fatally wounded by shrapnel trying to return to report to Wellington. He was originally part of the Royal Edinburgh Volunteer Light Dragoons which became a yoemanry orginazation, but I think I have him leaving it to join a regular army unit before that happens. I do appreciate your help as it is for people like you who may chance to read this story if it ever gets published that I am trying to be so painstakingly accurate about this. If you can come up with any suggestions on how to get him into a unit where he would be a scout, let me know. This part doesn't happen until later on in the story, but as I am working on the timeline and chapter outlines it would be helpful to have those little details down. Thanks.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Kagan
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 07:14 AM

Wow! Great thread. Loadsa fantastic background. Can I return to the musical thread for a second. Does anyone know which regiment is involved in the song 'The Lancashire Lads'...It was last monday morning I overheard them say...etc. etc. and is there any background to the song.
K.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Les from Hull
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 09:05 AM

I'm sorry but he's not going to be wounded by 'shrapnel' either. Only the British used this type of ammunition, although the term was later used for the fragments of exploding shell. It was named after the inventor of the 'spherical case shot', as it was called - a Lt. Shrapnel. So he was hit by a piece of shell. And was this Leipzig still? If so it's a bloody long ride to Northern Spain/Southern France where Wellington was at the time.

Have you considered making him an aide-de-camp? Often young Captains (usually well-connected ones) would act as messengers to Generals, called an aide-de-camp, and may be sent to find out what was happening on other parts of the battlefield. Not really scouting as such, which would usually be a small unit of light cavalry. But he could discover some hidden movement of the enemy. The other two scouts could be what remained of a scouting party of Light Dragoons or Hussars (similar toops, different uniforms) and look to him as an officer to lead them.

One prominent member of the Edinburgh Light Dragoons was Sir Walter Scott, although he wasn't 'Sir' until 1820.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 10:08 PM

Les, Great idea making him an Aide-de-camp! i have his father being an MP so he could be well connected, besides the fact that the family was wealthy. I did know about Sir Walter Scott nad how he help start the unit. However some of my research shows that Wellington was there by Oct 18, and in fact some maps that show troop movement and position have his name on the maps for the Engish troop positions. would they do that if he weren't there? I don't know as I am not a military expert at all, just a history nut. Also in some research I got from the Royal Scots website indicates that the 6DG was both heavy and Light cavalry, and explains the difference. They do not say however if they were anywhere near Leipzig. Most likely not, that wouldn't be my luck. So The Aide-de-camp theory would be a great way to work the character into where he would need to be for the story. As I have him joining up with Wellington in The Pennisular Campaign, he could have easily impressed Wellington with his record in the Royal Edinburgh Volunteers and his ability. I mean he's a 30- something laywer with a suceesful record, so he is a smart person, well-connected so why not make him an Aide-de-camp. So many thanks for that idea. As far as the other two, one of the characters is his best friend who is in the same unit. Could more than one be sent to check on troop movement of the enemy? I think that could be plausible.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Les from Hull
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 08:10 AM

In the Napoleonic Wars the regiments of Dragoon Guards are certainly heavy cavalry. The Dragoon Guard regiments had been Regiments of Horse, but were slightly downgraded (they could have slightly cheaper horses etc) to Dragoons. They were given the title Dragoon Guards to differentiate them from existing Dragoons, who they considered themselves senior to (and better than!).

Dragoons at the time had lost their dismounted role, which is why we had to have Light Dragoons. Even then, the Light Dragoons would never dismount. so we ended up having mounted riflemen in the Boer War by giving horses to infantry. You can never get a cavalryman off his horse! (see also HuwG post of 25 May).

It would be most expedient to send more than one person to check on enemy movements. If you only send one, you might not get him back! Unless he's a spy, in disguise. If you were sending an aide, because you needed someone whose ability you trusted, you would at least tell him to pick up an escort from the nearest light cavalry.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 04:55 PM

Les,
Thanks for the help! I think that will certainly be useful for that part of the story. And who better to pick up for an escort than your best friend, hey? Wow, something finally fits. thanks again.
Hobbitmum


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,Gordon
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 07:38 PM


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,Gordon
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 07:46 PM

This is a great site. Some writters have substantial details of the events.

I have a relative who served at Waterloo for the British side. He would have been from the Inverness, Scotland area. I note in a responses that Yeomanry are from a specific area. I only have his last name and am willing to sort through unit lists, battle orders and other source material giving names. However, I'm not having much sucess in finding site references. I'm looking for a startin point.

My cousing has a letter from this soldier which references a "baracks" but I can't get access to it to read.


Any help will be appreciated.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Peace
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 10:15 PM

What's his name?


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Les from Hull
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 11:05 AM

The Yeomanry were cavalry, but they didn't serve abroad.

He may have been in an infantry regiment. The Highland Light Infantry or one of the Highland Line Regiments (the 42nd, 79th or (2nd).

If you can find the name of the barracks, you'll probably get the name of the regiment, assuming that it's the home depot. You may have a problem having only the last name, as many highlanders would have the same last (clan) name.

Anyway, it's not really the 'British' side, it's the Allied side. There were more Germans in the Allied army than British, but you never hear it called the German side.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: HuwG
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 04:50 AM

Many of the British Army's infantry regiments will be merged or disbanded in 2004.

All the Scottish units will form part of the new "Royal Regiment of Scotland", those from the north-west of England will form a new "Queens, Lancashire and Borders" regiment.

There will be a new "Yorkshire Regiment", which will absorb the former Prince of Wales's own Yorkshire Regiment, the Green Howards and Duke of Wellington's Regiment. (I am open to cash offers on my old White Rose beret badge and "2 YORKS" shoulder slides, from the disbanded Yorkshire Volunteers.)

The regiments from Wales will merge into a "Royal Welsh". Many of the regiments from the Midlands will form a "Mercian" regiment. (Mercia was the Anglo-Saxon kingdom between Northumbria and Wessex. It later became a disputed borderland between Anglo-Saxon and Viking.) There was a short-lived Territorial Regiment named the "Mercian Regiment". Probably this new regiment will inherit their cap badge.

The regiments of the Queen's Division, recruited in the south and east, are unaffected. The Light Division, which recruits from the midlands and southwest will actually gain a battalion, from disbanded regiments in the southwest.

The old regimental titles and traditions will be retained in the battalion titles of the new regiments e.g. "3rd (Black Watch) Battalion, Royal Regiment of Scotland".

It is reasonably safe to predict that the battalions of the new or amalgamated regiments might accept their new hatbadges, but won't dispense with any other items of tribal display of their former allegiance, like hackles, lanyards, vegetables and other flora, and so on. Any formal or semi-formal British army occasion will look more than ever like a zoo. The new regiments will also inherit lots more regimental commemoration days on which to get blotto.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 06:15 AM

What's happening to the Royal Welch Fusiliers? Will they keep their flashes?


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: HuwG
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 07:00 AM

Their title and traditions will be kept in the battalion title. As a regiment they are senior (23rd of the Line) to their new partners, the Royal Regiment of Wales (24th / 41st), so I presume they will become the 1st (Royal Welch Fusiliers) Bn, Royal Welsh.

I presume also that the battalion will attempt to keep as many RWF traditions, including the hackle, and the flash.

The only saving to the Treasury I can see from this amalgamation is that the regiment need use only one goat (as a mascot !!!) instead of two.

The Welsh Guards (and indeed the entire Guards Division) are not affected by the reorganisation.

The Army's reasoning behind these various mergers is to reduce the number of occasions on which regiments have to be re-roled, and hence withdrawn for extensive re-equipment and reorganisation. Instead, officers and men can be "trickle-posted" between the battalions. Re-roling will now need to take place only half as often as before.

This is in effect returning to the days immediately after the "Cardwell" reforms of 1870, when regiments had two regular battalions, one for Home service and the other for Overseas service, although because of slower transportation in those days, the battalions would exchange places every five years or so, rather than post personnel between the two battalions.

There was usually also a 3rd (Reserve) and 4th (Volunteer) battalion. From 2004, the TA will probably provide a 3rd (Volunteer) Bn, Royal Welsh, but there is unlikely to be a 4th TA battalion. I don't know what traditions the 3rd Battalion will keep, adopt or invent. Just so long as they keep "Detroit" as a battle honour !


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Weasel Books
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 09:57 AM

White cockades would not have been worn by British regiments as it would be considered treasonous.

The hackle is worn by those regiments that participated in Paoli's Tavern during the AWI. The Colonials swore revenge so the regiments put a hackle of red feathers in their tricornes so they would know who did it.

The Black Brunswickers wore black as a sign of mourning for their lost duchy.

The Bonny Light Horseman, like Over the Hills, predates the Napoleonic Wars.

Hobbitmum, maybe make him an observer with the Russians or Prussians?


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: HuwG
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 12:11 PM

A rocket troop of the Royal Horse Artillery (Whinyates's) did participate in the campaigns in Central Europe, culminating in the battle of Leipzig. I believe they were part of Bernadotte's Army of the North (Steding's Swedish Corps, Bulow's Prussian Korps, and Winzingerode's Russians).

Their horses and discipline attracted admiration from allied officers (including Blucher), but not the Congreve rockets with which they were armed.

In any case, there were over 1000 guns in the allied army at Leipzig. A single RHA troop (battery, or company in other armies) would make little difference among such a large number.

Unlike infantry or cavalry officers who either purchased their commissions (or were promoted from the ranks surprisingly often during the Napoleonic Wars), and who subsequently learned their trade "on the job", Royal Artillery (and RHA and Royal Engineer) officers had to attend the Military Academy at Woolwich. They were therefore career and professional soldiers, unlike Hobbitmum's gentleman adventurer.

The system of purchase of commissions didn't do as much harm during the Napoleonic Wars as it did during the subsequent peace, because so many units were engaged in hard service that senior officers died quickly or were only to glad to sell their commissions at their face value. (During the peace of 1815 - 1854, wealthy officers like Lord Cardigan could purchase their commissions after an unseemly auction, which drove the price of promotion far beyond the means of officers from less exalted backgrounds.)

A toast among subalterns in the British Army which was (is ?) drunk before leaving Britain for active service in wartime, goes "A bloody campaign and a sickly season !" There is nothing like cannon fire, yellow fever and dysentery for clearing the dead wood among senior officers, and allowing quick promotion to deserving and lucky junior officers.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Weasel Books
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 01:12 PM

The toast is apocryphal, but echoes the sentiments well.

I think Cardigan ( a very, very distant cousin BTW) missed his calling in life. He should have been RSM!


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 02:25 PM


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,TAFFROWLANDS630@AOL.COM
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 02:38 PM

HI ALL,
COULD ANYBODY ENLIGHTEN ME ON WHICH IS THE ONLY TRUE ROYAL REGIMENT IN THE BRITISH ARMY ?.
I WAS LED TO BELIEVED THAT IT WAS THE ARTILLARY, DUE TO THE FACT THEY ARE RIGHT OF THE LINE AND THERE EMBLEM APPEARS ABOVE THE ROYAL EMBLEM ? AM I CORRECT ?
PLEASE LET ME KNOW IF I'M RIGHT.
PS I KNOW A LOT OF REGIMENTS ARE CALLED ROYAL, NO OFFENCE TO YOU ALL
AN EX 2 PARA.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 03:52 PM

What do you mean by 'true'?
There are a number of royal regiments in the British Army. See www.answers.com/topic/list-of-british-army-regiments-1994.
King's Own Royal Border Regiment, The Blues and the Royals, Royal Armoured Corps, Royal Corps of Engineers, Royal Regiment of Artillery, The Royal Gurkha Regiment, are some that come to mind.

The Royal Regiment of Artillery has an emblem with the Crown on top, then an artillery piece, the motto at base.

Outside of Britain-
Royal Regiment of Australian Artillery
Royal Regiment of Canadian Artillery
etc., etc.

I believe all regiments called Royal have 'letters patent' (right term?).


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,taffrowlands630@aol.com
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 05:54 PM

thank you for the reply, but i'm still none the wiser. my ex regimement has 2 crowns on its badge. " i think the only one in the british army " ?
a question came up on a site i visit asking why the parachute regiment wasn't called the royal parachute regiment, that's why i asked the question. but i'm sure the royal artillary,s emblem / badge is mounted above the queens / kings emblem making them a true royal regiment ! may be the other units where appointed ? i don't know.
what dose a regiment have royal infront of there name ?
                                              thanks again for your help.
   ex 2 para


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: The Walrus
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 06:13 AM

The Pay Corps and the Staff also have badges incorporating two crowns (A crowned Lion standing on a crown).
Several Corps have the royal cypher incorporated in their badge
(Military Police, Provost Corps , and, of course, it appears in the RE badge - it has been lost from the RCT with the formation of the RLC>)
Of course, all the above are CORPS not regiments.....


As to the reduction in the size of the infantry:
The Government want to lose 5 battalions;
The five Guards Regiments are all multi battalion formations;
Most of the rest of the infantry seems to be reduced to single regular battalions;
The answer seems clear to me, lose Guards battalions (unless Princess Tony is hanging on to them to form a 'Presidential Guard' for when he makes his move).

Walrus


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,taff
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 12:54 PM

thanks for your help Walus, but dose any body know how the royal came in front of the names of ALL units ? going back in history i think armies were private up intill oliver cronwell conbined them all ? dose that come into the issue ?
   thanks again for your help.
                            taff


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: sapper82
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 02:28 PM

There is one regiment with two royals in it's name, "The Royal Monmouthshire Royal Engineer Militia"


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,Keith A o Hertford
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 04:12 PM

Tafrolands, I have heard that the Paras were denied the Royal prefix because of a mutiny during WW2. Anyone else hear that?
Keith.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: HuwG
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 05:48 PM

156 bn, the Parachute Regiment, were formed in India from volunteers from other British units. They became notorious for brawls and bad behaviour, mainly resulting from boredom and lack of parachute training.

Rather than disband the unit, the authorities sent it back to Britain. (Many of its soldiers had already served more than three years in India, and would have had to be sent home anyway.) It formed part of 4th Para brigade, and was destroyed at Arnhem.

However, I doubt whether this single episode would bring shame on the entire regiment. (In any case 156 bn more than redeemed themselves by their conduct and sacrifice at Arnhem).

****

For infantry and cavalry units, the "Royal" prefix to the title was (and is) usually granted as a favour, for long and meritorious service. The suggestion might be made by the monarch, but the only paperwork would be an instruction from the Army Council. Any warrant or other paper from the monarch would be only the gilding on the deed. The Royal Artillery (and Royal Horse Artillery) on the other hand, were established late in the seventeenth century or early in the eighteenth century by Royal Warrant.

For many years the RA and RHA were administered not by the War Office, but by the Ordnance Board. This complicated system exasperated Wellington and other generals in the field. It was even worse in the previous century, as there had been a separate Corps of Artillery Drivers, administered separately from the gunners.

As I think I mentioned somewhere in this thread, British artillery officers during the Napoleonic wars were supposedly more serious and professional than their infantry and cavalry counterparts. However the separate administration of the artillery until 1830 (I think; I'll have to check the correct date) kept artillery officers out of field commands until 1842 when Sir George Pollock relieved Jalalabad and recaptured Kabul.

(A RA Officer named Phillips commanded the "Convention Army", i.e. Burgoyne's army which had surrendered at Saratoga, and languished in Boston until the War of Independence ended. However, this is hardly a field command, and Phillips was soon exchanged for captured American officers.)


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,taff
Date: 01 May 05 - 04:13 AM

thanks for all your help


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,Jones Falls
Date: 17 May 05 - 01:12 PM

Many thanks to all of you.

I've been cobbling together a Town Crier's costume to serve the Township of Rideau Lakes in Leeds & Grenville County, Ontario, Canada (about 75 miles north of Syracuse New York.

Town Crier's usually kit themselves up in a muddle of mixed uniforms, often ending up with a mix of American-British-French. Taking note that my township was settled first by Loyalists (Tories) from the American Revolution, then by the Scots and Irish, who were involved with the Royal Engineers and the Corps of Royal Sappers & Miners building the Rideau Canal, I have used the Scots/Irish as my primary blend.

I had a kilt tailored last year. Since then I've bought a feather (Highland) bonnet (uncomfortable monster, it is!), and paraphenalia including spats, skien dhub, hair sporran, sealskin sporran, tweed cutaway jacket, checked hose-tops, wide belt, long dirk, glegarry and white cross-belts. Now I am having a red cape and a neck-high waistcoat tailored The cape will have some gold braid, loops on the collar, which will be a shawl collar under which is a second collar in green. The fabric used is doeskin, and it will be tailored, in Kingston, by a chap who fashions military mess kits and uniforms for Canada's Grenadier Guards.

Thinking of rejecting the tall feather bonnet, I saw that statues of Lieut-Col John By R.E. (The fellow who engineered the canal) show him wearing a bicorn. I've written to the Speaker of Canada's House of Parliament asking him to pass along any hand-me-downs. He wears one every day when he opens parliament. His Sergeant at Arms wears a tri-corn. I just wrote last week, I'm still waiting.

Meanwhile I have ordered a tri-corn hat from an outfit called Jas. Townsend & Son, in Indiana. They asked me to tell them what kind of cockade I wanted. Thanks to your string on cockades and 'stuff' (Yea, verily, there was much 'stuff') I was ably to declare, quite firmly, "Black, please."
OH, it will be a muddle, but it certainly will do the trick!
Cheers! & OYEZ! OYEZ! OYEZ!

Jones Falls on the Rideau Canal


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Subject: Help: re rivalry between Black Watch & The Greys
From: GUEST,beachie@bigpond.net.au
Date: 16 May 06 - 05:58 AM

Dear Forum, I was recently staying with a friend who had two paintings by "Stick" Walsh, dated ? 19. They were a send up of the Butcho Black Watch, with his sporran sticking out and the feminine The Greys, with limp wrist and cigarette and on his tip toes. The Black Watch had a buzby hat with red plumes and The Grey had a white plume with black stockings. Can anyone in this forum help out with the artist and what the friendly rivalry was of these two regiments.
My friend acquired these paintings on paper from the Red Cross shop and had them on the wall of her sons bedroom (he was keen on soldiers) and had never noticed the detail until I stayed and noticed the comic characters.
Regards,
Anne


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 06:43 AM

The 5th Regiment of Foot won their hackle by defeating a far larger group of French troops at eh battle of St Lucia in 1780 or so. They took the feathers from the helmets of the fallen French. Years later the British king decided to award all infantry units the white feather. This would have taken away from the 5th's battle hoour of winning their feather. So it was decided that the 5th's feather would be distinguished from the rest by coloring part of it red to show it was earned in battle, or with blood.
The 5th also won their helmets from the French in 1762 at Wilhelmstahl by defeating several regiments of French Grenadiers. They were allowed to keep the helmets as trophies and had enough to outfit the entire regiment. So not only the 5th's grenadiers had bearskins, but the entire regiment had them. In the same battle they captured a set of French colours and were allowed to keep them as well. So they had three colours,a hackle, and helmets all captured from the French almost within a century.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 03:59 PM

Well, sort of. The 5th Northumberland Regt. certainly claimed they wore a white feather as a memento of St Lucia in 1778 but the earliest evidence of them wearing one comes from ca 1790 and it may simply have been an embellishment of the facts to avoid having to wear the same regulation feather as everyone else when it was imposed -with difficulty- between 1797 & 1802. It's an inconvenient truth but there's strong doubt that the French infantry didn't wear white feathers at that time. The first hint of the 5th's claim comes from drafts of the regulations that finally succeeded in imposing uniformity when the shako replaced the cocked hat in 1800-1802. The earliest version of the actual story comes from an old officer wheeled out when Horse Guards finally called the Regt's bluff in 1824 and were trumped by the story of St Lucia. Permission to retain the distinction (entirely self-awarded) was duly granted.

If by 'Helmets' you mean bearskin caps, until they wore out these trophies from Wilhemstahl were occasionly worn on parade by the 5th to the fury of senior officers. The Duke of Northumberland, who was their colonel desperately wanted the Regt to be granted the honorific title of 'Fusiliers' and so encouraged this entirely non-regulation item to which the 5th were not entitled. The practice had died out by 1800. The white feather appeared during the American War of Independence when the expensive and impractical fur grenadier and fusilier caps tended to be kept for 'best' and plain hats were worn instead. The feathers were worn in the hats as an emblem to denote elite status. When circa 1830 the white feather was briefly ordered for _all_ infantry except and light infantry rifles, while the Grenadier Guards, Line grenadiers and other Fusilier regiments appear to have meekly accepted the loss of their distinguishing emblem, the 5th argued their case and were granted a red tip to maintain their 'honour'. Five years later, remarkably, they were finally granted official 'Fusilier' status and became the 5th Northumberland Regiment of Fusiliers. It had taken sixty years. Lord Percy would have been beaming from heaven.

The story of the red feather of Paoli is almost certainly folk lore. The earliest version of the story appears in 1851 and the distinction was claimed by just one regiment, the 46th. It was allowed without any other evidence. There s no evidence of them wearing red feather before 1833. In the following years, the red flash spread to a few other regts. who had been involved in the 1777 attack at Paoli Tavern. A similar story was told of a short-lived Highland regiment, associated with similar events in America. There may be a grain of truth to that version.

Curiously, one of the other regiments present at Paoli, the Black Watch, did not date their celebrated 'red hackle' from that action but from an obscure skirmish in 1795 against the French in Holland. Again, this story appeared suddenly to surface mid-19th century, in the memoirs of two old soldiers. It's now been discredited and the Black Watch feather seems, ironically, to date from the American War of Independence after all, although not as a battle honour but, according to another old soldier's recollection, as some kind of 'tactical recognition' emblem (The story isn't quite clear). Years later King George III had given his blessing but the Regiment forgot to have it recorded officially. The CO at the time was over-fond of the bottle and George III had his own problems. We know this because, as with the 5th and 46th, Horse Guards found it necessary in 1822 to ask the Black Watch to explain as to "from what period and by what authority" they wore their non-regulation 'red feather' and the Regiment was unable to say. They turned to the oldest surviving officer of the Regt for an answer but then failed once again to have his answer recorded and the General's letter was lost until the 1960s (True to form, Horse Guards let them continue wearing the red feather anyway). The Regt. still took forty years to acknowledge the discovery of the letter- probably because the truth wasn't nearly as good a story as the legend.

Nearly all these traditions are presented as some kind of honour but turn out to have more mundane origins, which have become embellished over the years, usually as a way of resisting uniformity. They are, of course, a rich part of the folk tradition.

(Oh, and cockades in 18th century armies were symbols of national loyalty, usually associated with the ruling dynasty,if there was one- Hapsburg, Bourbon, Orange etc. and of course Jacobite. They were often the only piece of uniform common to all regiments and branches of service. Until about 1815, I think, the Brits wore the black cockade of Hanover.)

Glad that's off my chest.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Dead Horse
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 10:15 PM

And it only took you three years to do it, too :-)


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 01:41 PM

The far-reaching hand of Google! -


and the truth never sleeps....


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