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Help: Which Regiment(s)

DigiTrad:
THE SOLDIER'S FAREWELL (White Cockade II)
THE WHITE COCKADE (King Charles)
WHITE COCKADE (BURNS)
WHITE COCKADE (THEY ADVANCED ME)


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GUEST,Yorkie (Chris) Bartram 22 May 02 - 06:54 PM
GUEST,ozmacca 22 May 02 - 07:06 PM
GUEST,ozmacca 22 May 02 - 07:11 PM
artbrooks 22 May 02 - 08:02 PM
Paul from Hull 22 May 02 - 08:10 PM
Paul from Hull 22 May 02 - 08:15 PM
GUEST,ozmacca 22 May 02 - 09:09 PM
GUEST,ozmacca 22 May 02 - 09:19 PM
Paul from Hull 22 May 02 - 09:45 PM
GUEST,ozmacca 22 May 02 - 10:07 PM
GUEST 22 May 02 - 10:46 PM
Wilfried Schaum 23 May 02 - 02:54 AM
Hrothgar 23 May 02 - 06:28 AM
Nigel Parsons 23 May 02 - 06:50 AM
HuwG 23 May 02 - 09:14 AM
greg stephens 23 May 02 - 09:29 AM
Eric the Viking 23 May 02 - 03:01 PM
Les from Hull 23 May 02 - 03:31 PM
GUEST,ozmacca 23 May 02 - 06:59 PM
Mr Red 23 May 02 - 07:05 PM
DonD 23 May 02 - 08:40 PM
GUEST,ozmacca 23 May 02 - 09:33 PM
Teribus 24 May 02 - 08:01 AM
HuwG 24 May 02 - 08:57 AM
Les from Hull 24 May 02 - 01:12 PM
The Walrus 24 May 02 - 03:42 PM
Paul from Hull 24 May 02 - 09:09 PM
The Walrus 25 May 02 - 07:30 PM
Gareth 25 May 02 - 07:37 PM
The Walrus 25 May 02 - 07:53 PM
GUEST,re-enactor 23rd RWF 26 May 02 - 02:23 PM
GUEST,23rd 26 May 02 - 02:35 PM
GUEST,ozmacca 26 May 02 - 10:30 PM
ozmacca 27 May 02 - 07:00 AM
HuwG 27 May 02 - 09:15 AM
Paul from Hull 27 May 02 - 12:52 PM
GUEST,ozmacca 27 May 02 - 07:37 PM
Teribus 28 May 02 - 02:04 AM
GUEST,ozmacca 28 May 02 - 03:06 AM
GUEST,Keith A o Hertford 28 May 02 - 03:32 AM
HuwG 28 May 02 - 08:49 AM
Wilfried Schaum 29 May 02 - 04:02 AM
Wilfried Schaum 29 May 02 - 05:17 AM
ozmacca 29 May 02 - 05:27 AM
The Walrus at work 29 May 02 - 09:00 AM
HuwG 30 May 02 - 07:15 AM
Les from Hull 30 May 02 - 12:56 PM
GUEST,ozmacca 31 May 02 - 01:50 AM
Yorkie 04 Jun 02 - 08:51 AM
Wilfried Schaum 04 Jun 02 - 10:19 AM
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Subject: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,Yorkie (Chris) Bartram
Date: 22 May 02 - 06:54 PM

"Oh yes my love has 'listed and he wears a White Cockade.
He is a tall and handsome man; likewise a roving blade.
He is a tall and handsome man just fit to serve the king.
Oh my very (oh my very)
Oh my very (oh my very)
Oh my very heart is aching all for the love of him".

In this and, perhaps, other songs or versions of songs(e.g. Rambleaway) that seem to originate in the North-East region of England there is mention of the White Cockade. Which regiment(s) might this refer to?


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,ozmacca
Date: 22 May 02 - 07:06 PM

As far as I've always understood it - which may be right, wrong, misleading, mis-representative and all those other things that the folk tradition is built on... On the death of Protestant Queen Anne, regiments in the British army were authorised to wear a black cockade or rosette in their headgear. Given that there was a good deal of support for Anne's Catholic brother James, who had been deposed by William and Mary, it looked likely that james would return to the throne, and so his followers adopted a white version of the same badge. They were known as Jacobites, hence all those songs about the white cockade and the 1715, and 1745 and Prince Charlie etc.....

And there was a lot of Jacobite support at the end of the 17th century throughout all Britain, not just in Scotland. The Highland connection is really more to do with the later period when English jacobite support had been greatly reduced.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,ozmacca
Date: 22 May 02 - 07:11 PM

.... or something. Interesting that many regiments in the British and other armies were authorised to wear a black badge on the death of the monarch. For example.. I've always understood that the Brunswick regiments at Waterloo wore black because of the recent death of their Duke. However, and to the point - I don't know of any instances where regular regiments were ever authorised to wear a white special badge. I'd appreciate any info....


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: artbrooks
Date: 22 May 02 - 08:02 PM

In addition to being a Jacobite insignia, the white cockade was also the emblem of the royalist forces in France at the time of the French Revolution.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 22 May 02 - 08:10 PM

I wasnt aware of all the precise details that Ozmacca had gone into (thanks mate, useful stuff!) but all I can add to what he's said is that I havent come across the Cockade used as a 'badge' to denote a particular Regiment as such.

I'd GUESS, & it is just a guess (& someone more knowledgeable than me might have a better explanation) that it MIGHT be the mark of a 'Chosen Man' (unfortunately the 'Sharpe' series has misled people to what that means). There were no Medals awarded prior to Waterloo, & think its entirely possible that prior to that, a soldier who performed an act of particular bravery, or skill might be 'decorated' by having a Cockade pinned to him, presumably at the discretion of the Colonel.

Less complimentary (& presumably less likely to be commemorated in song...*G*)...might be that someone who wore a cockade had been 'conned' into the Army by a Recruiting Sergeant, presumably won over by the cockades & ribbons & other 'fancy' additions to the Sergeants uniform to impress potential recruits... there is more than one instance of Recruiting Sergeants doing that kind of thing, & making the gullible recruit think he was going into the Army with some degree of favour (or Rank) compared to other new recruits.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 22 May 02 - 08:15 PM

Ooops, & I meant to say, a further possibility was that it MIGHT denote someone who had volunteered during the patriotic fervour of some wars, rather than having joined up through poverty, hunger, to avoid jail, or having fathered a child out of wedlock.

I say again this is all pretty much speculation on my part though....


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,ozmacca
Date: 22 May 02 - 09:09 PM

Yeah, I'd forgotten about the cockade as a decoration pure and simple to entice the gullible to join up. Goes along with the King's shilling the poor sod found in the bottom of his beer mug.

Meanwhile back at the Napoleonic Wars - A "Chosen Man" was the name given in the then newly formed 95th Rifle Regiment to a rifleman who had proved to be suitable as a low ranked nco - the equivalent of lance-corporal or corporal. The 95th, then the other rifle regiments as they were formed, were trained to act as skirmishers and operate independently usually well in front of the line infantry. Their purpose was to pick off enemy officers, sergeants, colour parties, gunners etc, who would be a distinct threst to the line. Because of this completely new role - in the British army at least - the existing system of ranks etc was altered to reflect the need for trust in such a situation, where the rifleman had to work intelligently as a small team or separately.

PS - Sharpe fans should know this and be going on about "fixing swords" etc - The 95th were armed with the Baker rifle, a flintlock muzzle-loaded rifle as opposed to the standard smooth-bore 0.753 inch musket. The rate of fire was lower, but the accuracy - for its' time - quite frightening. BUT - and here we Scots can stand up and take a bow - the first rifle issued to British troops was the Ferguson rifle, a breech-loading flintlock issued to the light company of a Highland regiment for trial during the American War of Independence. It was a very promising weapon, but as its' inventor, Captain Ferguson, was killed in action, the whole experiment was dropped.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,ozmacca
Date: 22 May 02 - 09:19 PM

..... AND another thing.... my God, will we ever get him to shut up?...

A cockade could also be a simple way of indicating a difference in loyalties when both sides were wearing the same - or at any rate similar - uniforms. As artbrooks has pointed out, during the French revolution, royalist and revolutionary troops could be from the same regiment, and all be wearing the same dress.

Mind you, when the muskets started firing, after a couple of volleys, nobody nearby was going to see anything anyway for the smoke.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 22 May 02 - 09:45 PM

I'd forgotten about the Ferguson Rifle....Hell, its YEARS since I read about that, & hadnt thought about it for a LOOONG time...

Good thread! I'll be back tomorrow & see who else has chipped in, but I'm off to bed now...


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,ozmacca
Date: 22 May 02 - 10:07 PM

Aye, we Scots never forget....... Now I wonder who said that? It was me, wasn't it? Yes, I remember....

To try and keep some sort of music theme going in this fascinating discourse, I'm reasonably familiar with a fair few of those "He's-off-to-war-and-leaving-me-behind-boo-hoo" and "Come-and-enlist-and-get-maimed-and-killed-if-ye're-lucky" songs, but bearing in mind battlefield conditions in the smooth-bore and bayonet era, and my note about smoke obscuring everything, are there many about an actual full scale punch-up. "Kerry Recruit" deals with storming a redoubt and being wounded at (I think) the Alma in the Crimea... Any others?


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST
Date: 22 May 02 - 10:46 PM

Or songs about particular regiments....

Clare's Dragoons,

Inniskilling Dragoons,

Twa Recruiting Sergeants (Black Watch)

The Gallant Forty-Twa (I think it was...)

A Gordon For Me (dredging up the music-hall stuff)


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 23 May 02 - 02:54 AM

It mustn't be a cockade - remember the War of Roses - to show your intention or loyalty. A common sign was especially needed in the times before the use of uniforms.
You could use a battle cry - "Montjoye et St Denis" with the French -, or a song - "Au jardin de mon pére" at Malplaquet - to identify own troops in the powder smog of battle, a plant at hand - roses, v.s. -, ribbons around an arm - black red gold with the German Federation in 19th century -, or a ribbon sewn up to a cockade. Mostly white was used as opposed to every other colour, e.g. in the French and Bolshevik revolutions against the revolutionary red.

Wilfried


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Hrothgar
Date: 23 May 02 - 06:28 AM

ozmacca, I thought the Brunswickers always wore black, and were called the "Black Brunswickers" because of it.

Guest, is it worth while starting a thread on songs about particular regiments? I just did a quick search, and couldn't find anything much. There are more goodies like "The Lancashire Fusilier," "The Ups and Downs" (about the 69th Regiment), and the "Route of the Blues." Must be a few more if I think hard.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 May 02 - 06:50 AM

Of course the Welsh wore a leek ac a cockade.
And Ozmacca's comment about the death of Queen Anne is supposedly the reason barristers took to wearing black, and still do so!


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: HuwG
Date: 23 May 02 - 09:14 AM

Ozmacca and artbrooks, quite right, the white cockade denoted sympathisers to the Jacobite cause in Britain (I say Britain rather than Scotland, becuause during the rising of the '15, there were a number of Jacobite rebellions in North-west England, which fizzled, and during the '45, a Jacobite regiment was raised in Manchester.

In Scotland especially, cockades were necessary, as several clans (especially the Campbells, but also the Munros, Mackays and others in Caithness and Sutherland) declared for Hanover. It was always useful to know who was burning your house down ...

Read James Prebble's book, "Culloden" for more information.

In the British Army, some units are entitled to wear a "hackle", a small feathered plume rather like a fishing lure, behind the beret badge. If I remember, these are the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers (red over white), the Royal Welch Fusiliers (white), the Royal Greenjackets, the Light Infantry and the Royal Irish Regiment (green). I don't think that this was anything to do with a cockade, but I may be wrong.

Officer cadets are supposed to wear a white patch behind their beret badge. A good way of saying, "Aim here", I suppose. The issued patch is the size of a dinner plate. Most savvy O/Cdts use the cut-away bottom of a yoghurt pot instead.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 May 02 - 09:29 AM

Ozmacca, you suggested your comments might be wrong or misleading. Dead right. Queen Anne wasn't the sister of James, deposed by William. She was his daughter. Not that that affects the rest of your discussion in anyway, I'm just being pedantic, it's my hobby.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 23 May 02 - 03:01 PM

The same song-is alledged to have come from Somerset/Devon area, but no mention of regiment or where sent to fight. "It's true my love has listed and he wears a blue cockade" etc. Sung by Show of Hands, but I had heard it a long time ago in the Kent area sung by a local old chap in a folk club down there. Bill sables reckons it's a northern song. Many of these songs travelled up and down, undergoing transformations to fit the requirements of the singer. Can't help you much, but suspect it's Napoleonic wars.

Oxford Eng Dict-Cockade, a rosette etc worn in a hat as a badge of office-theword of French derivation.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Les from Hull
Date: 23 May 02 - 03:31 PM

HuwG - yes the hackle is different to the cockade - it's more like a shaving brush, and in Napoleonic times it was white over red for everybody but riflemen (green) and grenadiers (white), as far as I remember.

I've heard the song as the 'blue' cockade, but no-one that I know of wore a blue cockade either, at least not in our armed forces. The cockade was a national thing and the British/UK one is black.

So I tend to think of the white/blue cockade as a local mark for a new recruit, or he's enlisted in a militia or volunteer unit.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,ozmacca
Date: 23 May 02 - 06:59 PM

Greg, I stand - or at any rate sit - corrected. Ta.

On the subject of the cockade, rosette, ribbon, sprig of vegetation, feather, vegetable, bit of old tat etc etc etc that was worn as a distinguishing mark - Wilfried and all the others are spot on. In the days when the troops were any old mob of peasants dragged along by the local gentry, some form of identification was absolutely necessary. Hence the first need for a bunch of ribbons etc etc. which usually reflected some part of the insignia or heraldic coat of arms of the twit up front on the horse. the trained men-at-arms would already wear some family badge to show who they belonged to, so it would be natural to use the same colours or the same badge in a simpler form. Probably the best known example of this type of general marking would be the cross worn by crusaders.

When permanent units of a standing army were formed, clothing was issued, and the most commonly available products used. Hence, or so I believe, the red coat of the British army, because trade and colonisation in the West indies had produced a large cheap quantity of "madder" dye. Although equipment was generally standardised, the colonel raising the regiment under the royal commission was paid to dress the troops and had a pretty free hand in the way of other markings, so to prevent confusion between regiments, it was usual to display "facings", cuffs, collars etc of different colours or have different buttoning patterns. I think the royal French armies up to the mid 18th century used the number of buttons on the pockets to differentiate between regiments, on otherwise plain light grey/white coats. Must have been interesting....

Colour parties would carry the regimental standard as well as the royal or national standard. The regimental colour was really a kind of continuation of the earlier twit on the horse's personal banner, and the royal colour indicated that your lot were officiallly part of the army. Together these showed everybody who your mob were, and who you belonged to, so that, hopefully, you would not be used for target practice by your mates in the smoke of battle. A symbol from the regimental colour would normally be displayed on the cap-badge, and maybe on the coat collar.

The use of another badge would then seem to be superfluous, but the British army has always made the idea of uniformity when applied to uniforms almost laughable. Troops would pick a sprig of leaves, or a chicken feather to unofficially mark themselves as being something special, and this would be associated with the action fought at the time. Next thing you know, the chicken feather has become a hackle and part of the officially approved dress, and so on...

The use of a cockade as an item to mark a special occassion such as the death of the monarch is just another pint of bat's blood in the brew as far as identifying regular regiments are concerned.

Anyway, thanks for reading so far... Guess what one of my interests is?

Looking forward to a thread on regimental or battle songs.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Mr Red
Date: 23 May 02 - 07:05 PM

PM the Walrus - he is into his military history.
How is your session at Middletown nr Welshpool -Breidden Hotel going? The last Wed must be next Wed? Right.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: DonD
Date: 23 May 02 - 08:40 PM

Was I misinformed that one can still tell which regiment is Changing the Guard at Buckingham Palace by the grouping of the buttons on their otherwise indistinguishable uniforms (except for the Gurhkas, of course.)


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,ozmacca
Date: 23 May 02 - 09:33 PM

I think so, DonD. The regiments of foot guards have their buttons grouped in the numbers appropriate to their own regimental numbers. Ist Regiment of Foot Guards, single buttons, 2nd Regt, 2 buttons and so on. This all derives from the time when the original regimental names, usually taken from the colonel who raised them, were dropped in favour of numbers. The numbers were later dropped, usually in favour of locality identification. Now, your starter for 10, which is which?.... Grenadier, Coldstream, Scots, Irish, Welsh?

The famous bearskin headgear is popularly accepted to be a momento of their action at Waterloo when they broke the French Imperial Guard, who wore a generally similar headgear. Well, maybe, but.... Anyway, I always liked the look of the very practical short "Belgic" shako which seems to have disappeared completely from british full dress uniforms, although versions of the "pickelhaub" are occassionally seen. Something else to blame Prince Albert for, I suspect.

Grenadiers always used to wear a tall narrow hat or cap anyway, partly to distinguish them as a special purpose group within an infantry regiment, and partly so it wouln't get in the way when throwing the early grenade - a sort of hollow iron ball filled with instant bang and with an exposed fuse which the soldier lit before throwing.

Now, fer Gawd's sake, will somebody stop me running off at the keyboard and let somebody else have a go....... Who started this anyway - it's all your fault - help!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Teribus
Date: 24 May 02 - 08:01 AM

I have heard the following - perhaps someone can verify it.

The 2nd Royal Dragoon Guards or Royal Scots Dragoon Guards, Scots Greys or Royal North British Dragoons. The guys on the grey horses at Waterloo, whose Sergeant Ewart captured the eagle of the French 45th regiment.

Where did their name originate - i.e the Scots Greys?

One story I heard was that it dates back to the English civil war when the Scottish Parliament threw in it's lot with the English Parliamentary forces. The decision was that Parliamentary forces were to wear red - this being so the Scots would have had to buy red cloth from England. The Scots refused to do this ("Whit d'ye think am made o money!!!!) as they had lots of plain woven hodden grey cloth - and they used this to outfit the cavalry they sent to aid the English Parliamentary forces in the North of England.

I have also heard the version of the song that has the blue cockade - judging by the location of the song is it possibly naval as the words I heard involved people setting sail to fight or could it have anything to do with Monmouths Rebellion?

Cheers,

Bill.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: HuwG
Date: 24 May 02 - 08:57 AM

ozmacca - The Regiments of Foot Guards in the British Army have actually lost their regimental numbers, which were in use during the Napoleonic Wars. The grouping of buttons denote the regiment's seniority. Grenadiers - 1; Coldstream - 2; Scots - 3; Irish - 4; Welsh - 5. You could say seniority = number, but the British Army always refers to Guards regiments by title (often as initials, such as 1/WG = 1st Battalion, the Welsh Guards).

Likewise, numbers are rarely used to denote Line Regiments, although there are very few left which have not been so amalgamated that their number looks like a winning lottery combination. I think there are still the Royal Scots (1st), Prince of Wales's Own (Yorkshire) Regiment (14th), Royal Welch Fusiliers (23rd). As with Guardsmen, titles are always used e.g. 1/DWR = 1st Battalion, the Duke of Wellington's Regiment.

In the last few years, the Armoured (cavalry) Regiments have also lost their numbers. There used to be a profusion of "Fraction Cavalry" e.g. the 14th/20th Hussars. The 16th/5th Lancers were the only one where for some reason the senior regiment on amalgamation had the higher number, they were often referred to as the "Vulgar Fraction".

I'm sure there must be a site out there somewhere which lists present and past British Regimental marches, I'll see if I can find it. As you might have guessed from the amount of b*ll I am spouting, I was once in uniform, in the 2nd Battalion, the Yorkshire Volunteers (2/YORKS), a now defunct Territorial Army unit. Its regimental quick march was, yes you've guessed it, "On Ilkley Moor bar't Hat".

Teribus - I don't know about the Scots Greys wearing hodden grey during the (English) Civil War. One interesting detail - the song, "All the Blue Bonnets are bound for the Border" dates from the Bishop's War of 1639 - 1640, which immediately preceded the ECW. When Charles I tried to impose an episcopacy and a new prayer book on Scotland, the Scots Covenanters formed a large army and invaded England; they captured Newcastle-upon-Tyne before Charles gave in. This army was issued with blue bonnets as a distinguishing piece of uniform.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Les from Hull
Date: 24 May 02 - 01:12 PM

The Prince of Wales Own (Yorkshire) Regiment also includes the 15th Foot - The East Yorkshires (and possibly others too).


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: The Walrus
Date: 24 May 02 - 03:42 PM

A little before the Napoleonic Wars, the official title of the Scots Greys was "The 2nd (Royal North British) Dragoons", as they were recruited in Scotland and rode grey horses, they earned the nickname "the Scots Greys", this became formallised (officially) later as the "Royal Scots Greys". As for the original question of an English regiment wearing a white cockade, the only one I can think of, off hand, was the Manchester Regiment, who fought for the Jacobite cause in the '45, those that hadn't deserted by the last battle were either sliced-and-diced at Culloden (and it's aftermath) or shared the fate of the highland prisoners (IIRC most of the captured officers were executed except the Colonel, who could prove that he was a serving French officer and therefore couldn't be a traitor to George II).

Walrus


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 24 May 02 - 09:09 PM

Yep...thats what I'd heard about the Scots Greys - apparently in the 'horsey set', a white horse is always termed a grey anyway (or it was in times past anyhow, I dont know about now). The grey cloth mentioned by Teribus is interesting though....& maybe has some truth in it, who knows?

The Grenadier Shako (not the Bearskin, which was, yes, because of the British Foot Guards playing a big part in breaking of the Grenadiers of the Old Guard at Waterloo) came in because the Bicorn hat would get in the way, as Ozmacca said.

Regiments that havent been amalgamated? Not many - The Green Howards (previously the 19th Foot, but originally Luttrell's Regt. (that predating Colonel Howard, & the green 'facing' colour even) is one, & the Duke of Wellingtons Regt. (33rd Foot...cant remember their original (ie: Colonel's name)) is another. There are a couple more I think, but cant remember them offhand... I'll have to look them up.

Prince of Wales Own Regiment Of Yorkshire was formed just from the West Yorkshire Regt. & the East Yorkshire Regt. - in 1968 I think it was, along with a large number of others.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: The Walrus
Date: 25 May 02 - 07:30 PM

Paul,

I'm sorry to contradict you, but

"...The Grenadier Shako (not the Bearskin, which was, yes, because of the British Foot Guards playing a big part in breaking of the Grenadiers of the Old Guard at Waterloo) came in because the Bicorn hat would get in the way, ..."

The first specialised "grenadier" headgear (which appeared at the turn of the 18th century) was the mitre cap (a heavily embroidered and badged cap shaped -surprisingly - like a bishop's mitre) - the shako didn't come into service with the British army until about a hundred years later in 1800, by which time the mitre had disappeared to be replaced by the "bearskin cap", about the same size and shape (from the front) as the mitre, with a metal regimental plate (enamelled or painted I believe) just above the eyes. For campaign wear the bearskin was replaced by the shako (first the "stovepipe" then the "Belgic" pattern) with a white "plume" (for non commissioned ranks, usually made of worsted). The breaking of Napoleon's Old Guard led to *whole* battalions of the Foot Guards regiments wearing the bearskin as opposed to only one (grenagier)company per battalion.

Regards

Walrus


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Gareth
Date: 25 May 02 - 07:37 PM

If my limited knowledge of the subject is correct Grenadier's companies or battalions were issued with the mitre cap so as not to obstruct the throwing of Grenades, which the old Tricorn caps did.

A bearskin, was issued, post Waterloo, to comemorate the defeat of Nappoleons Gaurds at Waerloo.

Walrus, can you comment ? - Sorry I'am better at naval history for this era.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: The Walrus
Date: 25 May 02 - 07:53 PM

Gareth,

You are correct on the origin of the mitre cap, but the mitre *became* the bearskin cap over the course of the 18th century, however, up until Waterloo, it was restricted to grenadiers only (The battalion was divided into eight companies, one grenadier, one light and six "battalion" or "hat" companies). On some occasions, all the grenadier companies of a brigade could be formed as an ad hoc composite grenadier battalion (likewise, composite light battalions could be formed before the advent of specilist Light Infantry).
After Waterloo, the headdress concession to the Foot Guards was that THE WHOLE BATTALION (not just the Grenadiers) would wear the grenadier bearskin.

Regards

Walrus


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,re-enactor 23rd RWF
Date: 26 May 02 - 02:23 PM

The 23rd wore a fur hat as Walrus described before Waterloo, It was never a "bearskin" but a fusileer cap,the bearskin was a lot bigger .
Then bayonet issued with the baker rifle was a sword bayonet with a handle and a lot longer than the 17-19 inch socket bayonet issued with the brown bess.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,23rd
Date: 26 May 02 - 02:35 PM

You might like to check out these two sites.
click
click


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,ozmacca
Date: 26 May 02 - 10:30 PM

Just a point of more local interest for me about the Greys. The 2nd Dragoon Guards were raised not far from my home town under the command of "Bloody Tam" Dalyell, and were hardly what you would call a popular regiment at the time of their inception as they were used to break up open-air church services being conducted in defiance of the king's orders about reforming the Scottish church. Strange that they remained as the only scottish regiment of horse to be part of the regular army list.

Together with the Inniskillings and the Life Guards, they formed the "Union" brigade at Waterloo, which (as so often with British cavalry) made a magnificant charge then got out of control and were carved up by the French lancers etc... Sgt Ewart's capture of the eagle won him a commission as ensign, as evidenced by a pub which bears his name at the top end of the Royal Mile in Edinburgh, and the regiment continued to wear the French imperial eagle as part of their honours, like a few others, I believe.

I have to apologise for an earlier remark - which nobody has yet picked me up for, so maybe I should shut up - I wrote that the british red coat was a result of the availability of "madder" dye from new colonies. WRONG!!! Madder dye from her new colonies in Africa provided France with the red clouring for the trousers worn by the French armies during the 19th century and into the 20th.... Well, at least I got the name of the dye right....


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: ozmacca
Date: 27 May 02 - 07:00 AM

HuWG, I always liked the old numbers system... Maybe I just wanted to win the lottery... Your comments about the use of numbering in amalgamated units reminded me of my stint in the Australian Army Reserve. I served in two units, the 2/3 and the 5/11, both Field Artillery regiments, the latter being defined as a Field Artillery (light)armed with the old L5 Pack Howitzer. The interesting part is we referred to 2/3 as "second-third", while the 5/11 was always spoken of as "Five-Eleven". Reason there was none, so far as I could ever find out...... Oh, and our badge was the same old Gun that wouldn't fire, the wheel that wouldn't turn and the ....... (ex-gunnies will know) which the Royal Artillery use. Come to that, everything we had used to be British - or American - or Canadian - or Italian.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: HuwG
Date: 27 May 02 - 09:15 AM

Paul from Hull, sorry to contradict, but the Duke of Wellington's Regiment, the 33rd, were amalgamated with another, I think the 76th, in 1969.

To add my two penn'orth to the debate on bearskins; the original mitre cap worn by grenadiers, which seems purpose-made to fall off, was replaced by the time of the American War of Independence by a much lower model, which had a fur edging to the front plate. It is usually referred to as a "Grenadier Cap". (British) Regiments of Fusiliers wore this also.

The whacking great fur edifice on top of Napoleon's Garde (and British Guards since Waterloo) is a rather fantastic development of this Grenadier Cap. It would obviously be most unsuitable for fighting in the woods of North America, but it gave a man more apparent height and presence on battlefields in Europe.

During the French and Indian Wars (1756 - 1760), some British (and "Colonial") Light Infantry units wore a leather or stout cloth cap very like a deerstalker, complete with earflaps. By the time of the War of Independence, it had sprouted a less-than-practical decorative front plate, and a plume.

I seem to recall that during the Anglo-American War of 1812, one Canadian light infantry unit, the "Voltigeurs", wore a small bearskin, barely larger than a jockey's cap; this would have been both more prestigious and more practical than a foot-high "stovepipe" shako.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 27 May 02 - 12:52 PM

Well, as I said on the 'Regimental Songs' Thread, I really shouldnt post late at night when half my brain is asleep...*G*

Thanks, Walrus! It was a cock-up that I said Shako at all...*G*

Huw, off the top of my head, I THINK the '76th' was the old designation for the 'Dukes' 2nd Battalion anyway, though I might be mistaken in that. Nevertheless, the 'Dukes' still do 'soldier on', as best I'm aware.

Thanks for posting those links, '23rd'...I hadnt seen the song site before at all, & it looks useful!


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,ozmacca
Date: 27 May 02 - 07:37 PM

HuwG - re colonial light infantry and the French & Indian Wars - Am I right in thinking that Roger's Rangers (raised in North America for the crown - and armed with non-standardised rifles and dressed in green!) wore a kind of oversize beret with a loose baggy crown? Got vague memories of seeing something along those lines.

Incidentally, I like the "whacking great fur edifice" description. If it's bad enough on a foot soldier , think how much the 2nd Dragoons (Scots Greys) would have appreciated being equipped with it!


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Teribus
Date: 28 May 02 - 02:04 AM

"Incidentally, I like the "whacking great fur edifice" description. If it's bad enough on a foot soldier , think how much the 2nd Dragoons (Scots Greys) would have appreciated being equipped with it!"

As Ozmacca points out (quote above) the 2nd RNB Dragoons I think are the only heavy cavalry regiment ever to wear bearskins. They wore them prior to the Napoleonic times, having won the right to wear them from a previous battle in the early or mid 1700's.

This continued to preserve the British tradition of going to war with totally inadequate footwear and totally inappropriate headgear.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,ozmacca
Date: 28 May 02 - 03:06 AM

Teribus ... and the same comment goes for clothing, weapons, logistics, tactics, commanders..... the list goes on. But fear not! Britain stands not alone! It appears that most armies representing long established governments throughout history have done much the same thing. It always seems to take either a defeat of major proportions, or a completely new hand at the top to bring in anything that smacks of - shock horror - progress. As has been pointed out elsewhere in this thread, small things get bigger, plain things get fancy, useful things get hung on to after their usefulness is long over, and the poor sod in the red coat / red trousers / kilt / cuirass / bell-top shako / bicorne / tin-can tank gets to reap the immediate, often painful, consequences.

Or maybe it only seems like the generals are always ready to fight the last war. God alone knows what the politicians are ready to fight.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,Keith A o Hertford
Date: 28 May 02 - 03:32 AM

When I joined the reserves in 1972, the only waterproof item of kit was the steel helmet!
It wasn't till after the Falklands in 82 we got high boots with sewn in tongue. In that conflict Brit squaddies would take the boots from Argentine dead.
There's a long trail a winding,
Keith.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: HuwG
Date: 28 May 02 - 08:49 AM

ozmacca, quite right re. Roger's Rangers. They were colonials, who dressed much as they pleased. I think a scotch bonnet, which seems to be what you describe, was common among them though not standard issue. As you say, they found green a useful colour; I think I have seen a picture of one wearing Indian mocassins (spelling?) and other items of Indian apparel, including a Tomahawk.

During the French and American wars (I am relying on the invaluable Francis Parkman, "Montcalm and Wolfe" here), there was one regiment, "Gage's Light Infantry", which was the 80th in the Army listing; it was disbanded after the wars. I don't know whether its men were British or Americans or both. It wore brown clothing and had the deerstalker hat which I described in an earlier post. There was also another all-British, regiment, the 55th, which its Colonel, Augustus Howe, converted to light infantry; its breeches and belts (though not their jackets) were dyed brown or green and they cut their tricorne hats down to the dimensions of a bowler. And, as The Walrus said, the light companies of all the battalions in a division or an army were often brigaded together in ad-hoc light battalions (as were the grenadier companies). The light infantrymen would presumably all wear something less clumsy and conspicuous than a tricorne.

ozmacca, teribus and Keith A o Hertford, please don't get me started on the inadequacies of issued equipment, I could go on all day. I do recall that after a few days on exercise, the phrase "uniform" had gone to rats**t, as all sorts of personal items and bodges replaced broken or missing bits, and people devised their own methods for securing awkward loads (mostly using those great roadies' all-purpose items, gaffer tape or black insulating tape). This applied especially to the TA, the Regulars looked a bit more orthodox. However, I love some of the shocked descriptions which the US troops on the Cunning Plan, alias Operation Desert Sabre, applied to British troops. The US soldiers prided themselves on looking and sounding alike; British troops preferred to look unique.

What was this thread about ? Oh yes, white cockades ? I rather suspect that, except for coups and rebellions, cockades were less a device for identifying troops in action, than an affirmation of nationality or allegiance. Wellington apparently had four cockades tacked to his hat at Waterloo; British, Dutch, Spanish and Portugese. (He was a Field Marshal, or honorary Field Marshal, in the armies of each of these countries).

White cockades were apparently sported by supporters of both the French Bourbon monarchs and the British Stuarts (i.e. Jacobites). Reading Prebble, I think the Hanoverian cockades (used during the '45 rebellion) were black and red. Much later, the French Republican cockades were red, white and blue (naturally enough).


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 29 May 02 - 04:02 AM

Objection, HuWG - the French republican cockades were blue, white and red (just the opposite order).
To the colours of Paris, capital and seat of the National Assembly, the revolutionary red was added. It was also a break with heraldic traditions - in the older coats of arms only two colours were used. Therefore the name of the French flag, the Tricolore, was unique in its youth, and the three coloured flag was always associated with revolutionary France.
The Union Jack doesn't count here, since it is an amalgam of four coats of arms, and the Star Spangled Banner, too, as its derivation.

Wilfried


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 29 May 02 - 05:17 AM

Let's talk a little bit about head gear:
In old army pictures I only saw tricorns, the bicorns were worn in the navies following the British example.
Some pictures of Grenadiers and their caps:
Hessian (Rgt v. Ditfurth)The regiment fought in America, 1776 - 1783

Hessian (reenacted)

Swiss A fine example of a fur lined grenadier cap, maybe the Royal Welch Fusiliers had a similar one?

Prussian

Russian (Pavlov's Grenadier Regiment)

Prussian (1. Regiment Foot Guards) and Russian (Pavlov's Grenadier Regiment)

British

British

60th Royal American And here a sample of the hat cut back. It follows the grenadier tradition of brimless headgear to be better enabled for throwing the grenades.
And here some observations of the name grenadier:
As Cpt Graves writes in his memories, the title grenadier was held a name of honour with the old grenadier units albeit they had abandoned the use of the hand grenade. When this device came in use again in the trenches of WWI, the old grenadiers watched jealously over their title, and the guys actually throwing the grenades (or "bombs") were called not grenadiers, but bombers. One of the marvels of the new German army is that the foot soldier is called armoured grenadier (Panzergrenadier, even when he is motorized) and is fighting like a light infantrist (Jäger)
By the way, Guest,23rd - guessing from the number, could it be that you are or have been wearing the flash?

Wilfried


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: ozmacca
Date: 29 May 02 - 05:27 AM

ust a quick note.. I assume everybody is following both threads - this and Regimental Songs - which seem to be neatly parallelling each other. Some excellent material here guys.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: The Walrus at work
Date: 29 May 02 - 09:00 AM

Wilfred,

May I correct your correction ?
The French Revolutionary cockade was (from the outside)White-Blue-Red (or in some cases white-red-blue), the cockades in Parisian colours (red & blue) being overlaid on the Boubon white cockade.

Regfards

Walrus


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: HuwG
Date: 30 May 02 - 07:15 AM

My last post to this thread ... Nigel Parsons, re Welsh units wearing leeks instead of a cockade; I haven't heard of that as a custom. (Some) Welsh units do indeed attach leeks to their headgear, on St. David's Day (Dydd gwyl Dewi Sant), March 1st. Although not in a Welsh unit, I did don a leek which Max Boyce might have envied on one March 1st, and discovered that Senior NCOs' sense of humour is very much a one-way process...

I suspect that leeks issued for wearing would probably have been eaten immediately, especially on active service. I note that when vegetation was used as a distinguishing mark, it was usually inedible. I have heard of oak leaves being used as such; also thistles, even though these might present problems.

One interesting bit of trivia re. this debate on Grenadier Caps and Fusilier Caps occurred to me. One famous battle of the British Army was Minden, in Germany, in 1760. The six British infantry units present marched through a park or garden before taking position, and five of the six plucked roses and stuck them in their (tricorne) hats. Their descendants (sorry, don't know which units these are) may wear roses in their headgear every year on "Minden Day". The one regiment which did not join in this dressing-up was the 23rd, the Royal Welch Fusiliers. I can only assume that this is because they were all wearing Mitre caps or Fusilier Caps, which did not have anywhere convenient to attach a very thorny piece of flora.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Les from Hull
Date: 30 May 02 - 12:56 PM

Slight thread creep here - what the RAF now calls a roundel was originaly called a cockade.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,ozmacca
Date: 31 May 02 - 01:50 AM

HuwG, I know what you mean by senior NCO sense of humour. We did get our own back on a BSM at the last battery parade which he presided over before his retirement. Every body on parade in best black belt and brass order, dress "polys" with slouch hats. Drilled to perfection and every order beautiffully exectuted. He watched us for twenty minutes before he realised that every single hat was on backwards, with turned up brim on the wrong side........

Such language........


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Yorkie
Date: 04 Jun 02 - 08:51 AM

I'm very new to this Discussion Forum thing (indeed, I'm very new to the Web) so I'm amazed at the number of responses. I thought it might take a couple of weeks before anyone even saw the question. Thanks to everyone, even the ones that went off at tangents – there's some really interesting bits of info that I never knew I wanted to know. Thanks especially to the ones that actually tried to answer the question; to Guest 23rd for the very useful links to other sites; to Mr Red, yes the Breidden session is always the last Wednesday in the month. Lots of great musicians and singers hand-picked by word-of-mouth. By the way, thanks for your Cresby.com site; to Greg Stephens, hello again, our paths haven't crossed for quite a while. Still Boating? I'm still Taxi-ing.(Contact Rees for PM) Now then, back to the question: - Walrus mentions the Manchester Regiment. Could that be the answer – that these various song references all go back to the Manchester lads? No, for pity's sake, I'm a Yorkshireman! Anyway, it doesn't sound like any of them survived their trip to Culloden. Also, the Scottish connection doesn't seem to fit with the reference later in the song about "I wish that the Hollanders would sink him in the sea". Several versions talk about marrying "in Newcastle when I return again" (That's one reason that I think these songs come from the North-East) but I've never heard one that mentions Manchester. So, although that seems to be the strongest contender so far, I'm afraid we may have to look further.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 04 Jun 02 - 10:19 AM

HuwG - Unfortunately I found only one unit connected with the battle of Minden:
Minden Boys, The: The Lancashire Fusiliers. Through the Ist Battalion as the 20th Foot ... (Fraser, Edward: Soldier and sailor words and phrases : including slang of the trenches and the Air Force ; ... / comp. by Edward Fraser and John Gibbons. - London : George Routledge & Sons, 1925. - pg. 191-192). The "unsurpassable six" British infantry regiments are mentioned, but not definitely named except the L. F.
ozmacca - Fine story about your BSM; the NCOs seem only to be able to note single faults, but not uniformly performed ones because no one is sticking out. We did it, too. After a longer salute drill done squadwise the Seargent Major did the evaluation, the platoon passing in a single file and everyone doing a very smart salute (it's difficult in the German way, especially forming the straight line with forearm and side of the hand). Normally he should have gone ekstatic, but he didn't. There must have been something wrong, but he couldn't name it. After leaving boot camp we told him: the entire platoon had performed the salute with the LEFT hand. Draftees' revenge.

Wilfried


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