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Help: Which Regiment(s)

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THE SOLDIER'S FAREWELL (White Cockade II)
THE WHITE COCKADE (King Charles)
WHITE COCKADE (BURNS)
WHITE COCKADE (THEY ADVANCED ME)


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GUEST 21 Apr 13 - 01:41 PM
Dead Horse 19 Apr 13 - 10:15 PM
GUEST 19 Apr 13 - 03:59 PM
GUEST 29 Jun 10 - 06:43 AM
GUEST,beachie@bigpond.net.au 16 May 06 - 05:58 AM
GUEST,Jones Falls 17 May 05 - 01:12 PM
GUEST,taff 01 May 05 - 04:13 AM
HuwG 30 Apr 05 - 05:48 PM
GUEST,Keith A o Hertford 30 Apr 05 - 04:12 PM
sapper82 30 Apr 05 - 02:28 PM
GUEST,taff 30 Apr 05 - 12:54 PM
The Walrus 30 Apr 05 - 06:13 AM
GUEST,taffrowlands630@aol.com 29 Apr 05 - 05:54 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 29 Apr 05 - 03:52 PM
GUEST,TAFFROWLANDS630@AOL.COM 29 Apr 05 - 02:38 PM
GUEST 29 Apr 05 - 02:25 PM
Weasel Books 22 Dec 04 - 01:12 PM
HuwG 22 Dec 04 - 12:11 PM
Weasel Books 22 Dec 04 - 09:57 AM
HuwG 22 Dec 04 - 07:00 AM
Wilfried Schaum 22 Dec 04 - 06:15 AM
HuwG 22 Dec 04 - 04:50 AM
Les from Hull 01 Oct 04 - 11:05 AM
Peace 30 Sep 04 - 10:15 PM
GUEST,Gordon 30 Sep 04 - 07:46 PM
GUEST,Gordon 30 Sep 04 - 07:38 PM
GUEST 09 Jun 04 - 04:55 PM
Les from Hull 09 Jun 04 - 08:10 AM
GUEST 08 Jun 04 - 10:08 PM
Les from Hull 08 Jun 04 - 09:05 AM
Kagan 08 Jun 04 - 07:14 AM
GUEST,Hobbitmum 08 Jun 04 - 12:46 AM
Les from Hull 25 May 04 - 05:30 PM
HuwG 25 May 04 - 01:56 PM
GUEST 24 May 04 - 11:22 PM
The Walrus 22 May 04 - 08:56 PM
GUEST,Anne Croucher 22 May 04 - 06:03 PM
Wilfried Schaum 22 May 04 - 05:30 PM
GUEST 22 May 04 - 02:30 PM
Les from Hull 21 May 04 - 01:15 PM
GUEST,ozmacca 20 May 04 - 08:51 PM
GUEST,hobbitmum 20 May 04 - 08:21 PM
GUEST 20 May 04 - 07:44 PM
GUEST,Anne Croucher 20 May 04 - 06:48 PM
Les from Hull 20 May 04 - 05:25 PM
TheBigPinkLad 20 May 04 - 01:43 PM
Hrothgar 20 May 04 - 07:07 AM
Les from Hull 19 May 04 - 07:04 PM
GUEST 19 May 04 - 05:57 PM
GUEST 19 May 04 - 05:43 AM
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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 01:41 PM

The far-reaching hand of Google! -


and the truth never sleeps....


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Dead Horse
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 10:15 PM

And it only took you three years to do it, too :-)


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 03:59 PM

Well, sort of. The 5th Northumberland Regt. certainly claimed they wore a white feather as a memento of St Lucia in 1778 but the earliest evidence of them wearing one comes from ca 1790 and it may simply have been an embellishment of the facts to avoid having to wear the same regulation feather as everyone else when it was imposed -with difficulty- between 1797 & 1802. It's an inconvenient truth but there's strong doubt that the French infantry didn't wear white feathers at that time. The first hint of the 5th's claim comes from drafts of the regulations that finally succeeded in imposing uniformity when the shako replaced the cocked hat in 1800-1802. The earliest version of the actual story comes from an old officer wheeled out when Horse Guards finally called the Regt's bluff in 1824 and were trumped by the story of St Lucia. Permission to retain the distinction (entirely self-awarded) was duly granted.

If by 'Helmets' you mean bearskin caps, until they wore out these trophies from Wilhemstahl were occasionly worn on parade by the 5th to the fury of senior officers. The Duke of Northumberland, who was their colonel desperately wanted the Regt to be granted the honorific title of 'Fusiliers' and so encouraged this entirely non-regulation item to which the 5th were not entitled. The practice had died out by 1800. The white feather appeared during the American War of Independence when the expensive and impractical fur grenadier and fusilier caps tended to be kept for 'best' and plain hats were worn instead. The feathers were worn in the hats as an emblem to denote elite status. When circa 1830 the white feather was briefly ordered for _all_ infantry except and light infantry rifles, while the Grenadier Guards, Line grenadiers and other Fusilier regiments appear to have meekly accepted the loss of their distinguishing emblem, the 5th argued their case and were granted a red tip to maintain their 'honour'. Five years later, remarkably, they were finally granted official 'Fusilier' status and became the 5th Northumberland Regiment of Fusiliers. It had taken sixty years. Lord Percy would have been beaming from heaven.

The story of the red feather of Paoli is almost certainly folk lore. The earliest version of the story appears in 1851 and the distinction was claimed by just one regiment, the 46th. It was allowed without any other evidence. There s no evidence of them wearing red feather before 1833. In the following years, the red flash spread to a few other regts. who had been involved in the 1777 attack at Paoli Tavern. A similar story was told of a short-lived Highland regiment, associated with similar events in America. There may be a grain of truth to that version.

Curiously, one of the other regiments present at Paoli, the Black Watch, did not date their celebrated 'red hackle' from that action but from an obscure skirmish in 1795 against the French in Holland. Again, this story appeared suddenly to surface mid-19th century, in the memoirs of two old soldiers. It's now been discredited and the Black Watch feather seems, ironically, to date from the American War of Independence after all, although not as a battle honour but, according to another old soldier's recollection, as some kind of 'tactical recognition' emblem (The story isn't quite clear). Years later King George III had given his blessing but the Regiment forgot to have it recorded officially. The CO at the time was over-fond of the bottle and George III had his own problems. We know this because, as with the 5th and 46th, Horse Guards found it necessary in 1822 to ask the Black Watch to explain as to "from what period and by what authority" they wore their non-regulation 'red feather' and the Regiment was unable to say. They turned to the oldest surviving officer of the Regt for an answer but then failed once again to have his answer recorded and the General's letter was lost until the 1960s (True to form, Horse Guards let them continue wearing the red feather anyway). The Regt. still took forty years to acknowledge the discovery of the letter- probably because the truth wasn't nearly as good a story as the legend.

Nearly all these traditions are presented as some kind of honour but turn out to have more mundane origins, which have become embellished over the years, usually as a way of resisting uniformity. They are, of course, a rich part of the folk tradition.

(Oh, and cockades in 18th century armies were symbols of national loyalty, usually associated with the ruling dynasty,if there was one- Hapsburg, Bourbon, Orange etc. and of course Jacobite. They were often the only piece of uniform common to all regiments and branches of service. Until about 1815, I think, the Brits wore the black cockade of Hanover.)

Glad that's off my chest.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 06:43 AM

The 5th Regiment of Foot won their hackle by defeating a far larger group of French troops at eh battle of St Lucia in 1780 or so. They took the feathers from the helmets of the fallen French. Years later the British king decided to award all infantry units the white feather. This would have taken away from the 5th's battle hoour of winning their feather. So it was decided that the 5th's feather would be distinguished from the rest by coloring part of it red to show it was earned in battle, or with blood.
The 5th also won their helmets from the French in 1762 at Wilhelmstahl by defeating several regiments of French Grenadiers. They were allowed to keep the helmets as trophies and had enough to outfit the entire regiment. So not only the 5th's grenadiers had bearskins, but the entire regiment had them. In the same battle they captured a set of French colours and were allowed to keep them as well. So they had three colours,a hackle, and helmets all captured from the French almost within a century.


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Subject: Help: re rivalry between Black Watch & The Greys
From: GUEST,beachie@bigpond.net.au
Date: 16 May 06 - 05:58 AM

Dear Forum, I was recently staying with a friend who had two paintings by "Stick" Walsh, dated ? 19. They were a send up of the Butcho Black Watch, with his sporran sticking out and the feminine The Greys, with limp wrist and cigarette and on his tip toes. The Black Watch had a buzby hat with red plumes and The Grey had a white plume with black stockings. Can anyone in this forum help out with the artist and what the friendly rivalry was of these two regiments.
My friend acquired these paintings on paper from the Red Cross shop and had them on the wall of her sons bedroom (he was keen on soldiers) and had never noticed the detail until I stayed and noticed the comic characters.
Regards,
Anne


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,Jones Falls
Date: 17 May 05 - 01:12 PM

Many thanks to all of you.

I've been cobbling together a Town Crier's costume to serve the Township of Rideau Lakes in Leeds & Grenville County, Ontario, Canada (about 75 miles north of Syracuse New York.

Town Crier's usually kit themselves up in a muddle of mixed uniforms, often ending up with a mix of American-British-French. Taking note that my township was settled first by Loyalists (Tories) from the American Revolution, then by the Scots and Irish, who were involved with the Royal Engineers and the Corps of Royal Sappers & Miners building the Rideau Canal, I have used the Scots/Irish as my primary blend.

I had a kilt tailored last year. Since then I've bought a feather (Highland) bonnet (uncomfortable monster, it is!), and paraphenalia including spats, skien dhub, hair sporran, sealskin sporran, tweed cutaway jacket, checked hose-tops, wide belt, long dirk, glegarry and white cross-belts. Now I am having a red cape and a neck-high waistcoat tailored The cape will have some gold braid, loops on the collar, which will be a shawl collar under which is a second collar in green. The fabric used is doeskin, and it will be tailored, in Kingston, by a chap who fashions military mess kits and uniforms for Canada's Grenadier Guards.

Thinking of rejecting the tall feather bonnet, I saw that statues of Lieut-Col John By R.E. (The fellow who engineered the canal) show him wearing a bicorn. I've written to the Speaker of Canada's House of Parliament asking him to pass along any hand-me-downs. He wears one every day when he opens parliament. His Sergeant at Arms wears a tri-corn. I just wrote last week, I'm still waiting.

Meanwhile I have ordered a tri-corn hat from an outfit called Jas. Townsend & Son, in Indiana. They asked me to tell them what kind of cockade I wanted. Thanks to your string on cockades and 'stuff' (Yea, verily, there was much 'stuff') I was ably to declare, quite firmly, "Black, please."
OH, it will be a muddle, but it certainly will do the trick!
Cheers! & OYEZ! OYEZ! OYEZ!

Jones Falls on the Rideau Canal


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,taff
Date: 01 May 05 - 04:13 AM

thanks for all your help


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: HuwG
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 05:48 PM

156 bn, the Parachute Regiment, were formed in India from volunteers from other British units. They became notorious for brawls and bad behaviour, mainly resulting from boredom and lack of parachute training.

Rather than disband the unit, the authorities sent it back to Britain. (Many of its soldiers had already served more than three years in India, and would have had to be sent home anyway.) It formed part of 4th Para brigade, and was destroyed at Arnhem.

However, I doubt whether this single episode would bring shame on the entire regiment. (In any case 156 bn more than redeemed themselves by their conduct and sacrifice at Arnhem).

****

For infantry and cavalry units, the "Royal" prefix to the title was (and is) usually granted as a favour, for long and meritorious service. The suggestion might be made by the monarch, but the only paperwork would be an instruction from the Army Council. Any warrant or other paper from the monarch would be only the gilding on the deed. The Royal Artillery (and Royal Horse Artillery) on the other hand, were established late in the seventeenth century or early in the eighteenth century by Royal Warrant.

For many years the RA and RHA were administered not by the War Office, but by the Ordnance Board. This complicated system exasperated Wellington and other generals in the field. It was even worse in the previous century, as there had been a separate Corps of Artillery Drivers, administered separately from the gunners.

As I think I mentioned somewhere in this thread, British artillery officers during the Napoleonic wars were supposedly more serious and professional than their infantry and cavalry counterparts. However the separate administration of the artillery until 1830 (I think; I'll have to check the correct date) kept artillery officers out of field commands until 1842 when Sir George Pollock relieved Jalalabad and recaptured Kabul.

(A RA Officer named Phillips commanded the "Convention Army", i.e. Burgoyne's army which had surrendered at Saratoga, and languished in Boston until the War of Independence ended. However, this is hardly a field command, and Phillips was soon exchanged for captured American officers.)


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,Keith A o Hertford
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 04:12 PM

Tafrolands, I have heard that the Paras were denied the Royal prefix because of a mutiny during WW2. Anyone else hear that?
Keith.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: sapper82
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 02:28 PM

There is one regiment with two royals in it's name, "The Royal Monmouthshire Royal Engineer Militia"


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,taff
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 12:54 PM

thanks for your help Walus, but dose any body know how the royal came in front of the names of ALL units ? going back in history i think armies were private up intill oliver cronwell conbined them all ? dose that come into the issue ?
   thanks again for your help.
                            taff


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: The Walrus
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 06:13 AM

The Pay Corps and the Staff also have badges incorporating two crowns (A crowned Lion standing on a crown).
Several Corps have the royal cypher incorporated in their badge
(Military Police, Provost Corps , and, of course, it appears in the RE badge - it has been lost from the RCT with the formation of the RLC>)
Of course, all the above are CORPS not regiments.....


As to the reduction in the size of the infantry:
The Government want to lose 5 battalions;
The five Guards Regiments are all multi battalion formations;
Most of the rest of the infantry seems to be reduced to single regular battalions;
The answer seems clear to me, lose Guards battalions (unless Princess Tony is hanging on to them to form a 'Presidential Guard' for when he makes his move).

Walrus


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,taffrowlands630@aol.com
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 05:54 PM

thank you for the reply, but i'm still none the wiser. my ex regimement has 2 crowns on its badge. " i think the only one in the british army " ?
a question came up on a site i visit asking why the parachute regiment wasn't called the royal parachute regiment, that's why i asked the question. but i'm sure the royal artillary,s emblem / badge is mounted above the queens / kings emblem making them a true royal regiment ! may be the other units where appointed ? i don't know.
what dose a regiment have royal infront of there name ?
                                              thanks again for your help.
   ex 2 para


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 03:52 PM

What do you mean by 'true'?
There are a number of royal regiments in the British Army. See www.answers.com/topic/list-of-british-army-regiments-1994.
King's Own Royal Border Regiment, The Blues and the Royals, Royal Armoured Corps, Royal Corps of Engineers, Royal Regiment of Artillery, The Royal Gurkha Regiment, are some that come to mind.

The Royal Regiment of Artillery has an emblem with the Crown on top, then an artillery piece, the motto at base.

Outside of Britain-
Royal Regiment of Australian Artillery
Royal Regiment of Canadian Artillery
etc., etc.

I believe all regiments called Royal have 'letters patent' (right term?).


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,TAFFROWLANDS630@AOL.COM
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 02:38 PM

HI ALL,
COULD ANYBODY ENLIGHTEN ME ON WHICH IS THE ONLY TRUE ROYAL REGIMENT IN THE BRITISH ARMY ?.
I WAS LED TO BELIEVED THAT IT WAS THE ARTILLARY, DUE TO THE FACT THEY ARE RIGHT OF THE LINE AND THERE EMBLEM APPEARS ABOVE THE ROYAL EMBLEM ? AM I CORRECT ?
PLEASE LET ME KNOW IF I'M RIGHT.
PS I KNOW A LOT OF REGIMENTS ARE CALLED ROYAL, NO OFFENCE TO YOU ALL
AN EX 2 PARA.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 02:25 PM


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Weasel Books
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 01:12 PM

The toast is apocryphal, but echoes the sentiments well.

I think Cardigan ( a very, very distant cousin BTW) missed his calling in life. He should have been RSM!


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: HuwG
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 12:11 PM

A rocket troop of the Royal Horse Artillery (Whinyates's) did participate in the campaigns in Central Europe, culminating in the battle of Leipzig. I believe they were part of Bernadotte's Army of the North (Steding's Swedish Corps, Bulow's Prussian Korps, and Winzingerode's Russians).

Their horses and discipline attracted admiration from allied officers (including Blucher), but not the Congreve rockets with which they were armed.

In any case, there were over 1000 guns in the allied army at Leipzig. A single RHA troop (battery, or company in other armies) would make little difference among such a large number.

Unlike infantry or cavalry officers who either purchased their commissions (or were promoted from the ranks surprisingly often during the Napoleonic Wars), and who subsequently learned their trade "on the job", Royal Artillery (and RHA and Royal Engineer) officers had to attend the Military Academy at Woolwich. They were therefore career and professional soldiers, unlike Hobbitmum's gentleman adventurer.

The system of purchase of commissions didn't do as much harm during the Napoleonic Wars as it did during the subsequent peace, because so many units were engaged in hard service that senior officers died quickly or were only to glad to sell their commissions at their face value. (During the peace of 1815 - 1854, wealthy officers like Lord Cardigan could purchase their commissions after an unseemly auction, which drove the price of promotion far beyond the means of officers from less exalted backgrounds.)

A toast among subalterns in the British Army which was (is ?) drunk before leaving Britain for active service in wartime, goes "A bloody campaign and a sickly season !" There is nothing like cannon fire, yellow fever and dysentery for clearing the dead wood among senior officers, and allowing quick promotion to deserving and lucky junior officers.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Weasel Books
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 09:57 AM

White cockades would not have been worn by British regiments as it would be considered treasonous.

The hackle is worn by those regiments that participated in Paoli's Tavern during the AWI. The Colonials swore revenge so the regiments put a hackle of red feathers in their tricornes so they would know who did it.

The Black Brunswickers wore black as a sign of mourning for their lost duchy.

The Bonny Light Horseman, like Over the Hills, predates the Napoleonic Wars.

Hobbitmum, maybe make him an observer with the Russians or Prussians?


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: HuwG
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 07:00 AM

Their title and traditions will be kept in the battalion title. As a regiment they are senior (23rd of the Line) to their new partners, the Royal Regiment of Wales (24th / 41st), so I presume they will become the 1st (Royal Welch Fusiliers) Bn, Royal Welsh.

I presume also that the battalion will attempt to keep as many RWF traditions, including the hackle, and the flash.

The only saving to the Treasury I can see from this amalgamation is that the regiment need use only one goat (as a mascot !!!) instead of two.

The Welsh Guards (and indeed the entire Guards Division) are not affected by the reorganisation.

The Army's reasoning behind these various mergers is to reduce the number of occasions on which regiments have to be re-roled, and hence withdrawn for extensive re-equipment and reorganisation. Instead, officers and men can be "trickle-posted" between the battalions. Re-roling will now need to take place only half as often as before.

This is in effect returning to the days immediately after the "Cardwell" reforms of 1870, when regiments had two regular battalions, one for Home service and the other for Overseas service, although because of slower transportation in those days, the battalions would exchange places every five years or so, rather than post personnel between the two battalions.

There was usually also a 3rd (Reserve) and 4th (Volunteer) battalion. From 2004, the TA will probably provide a 3rd (Volunteer) Bn, Royal Welsh, but there is unlikely to be a 4th TA battalion. I don't know what traditions the 3rd Battalion will keep, adopt or invent. Just so long as they keep "Detroit" as a battle honour !


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 06:15 AM

What's happening to the Royal Welch Fusiliers? Will they keep their flashes?


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: HuwG
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 04:50 AM

Many of the British Army's infantry regiments will be merged or disbanded in 2004.

All the Scottish units will form part of the new "Royal Regiment of Scotland", those from the north-west of England will form a new "Queens, Lancashire and Borders" regiment.

There will be a new "Yorkshire Regiment", which will absorb the former Prince of Wales's own Yorkshire Regiment, the Green Howards and Duke of Wellington's Regiment. (I am open to cash offers on my old White Rose beret badge and "2 YORKS" shoulder slides, from the disbanded Yorkshire Volunteers.)

The regiments from Wales will merge into a "Royal Welsh". Many of the regiments from the Midlands will form a "Mercian" regiment. (Mercia was the Anglo-Saxon kingdom between Northumbria and Wessex. It later became a disputed borderland between Anglo-Saxon and Viking.) There was a short-lived Territorial Regiment named the "Mercian Regiment". Probably this new regiment will inherit their cap badge.

The regiments of the Queen's Division, recruited in the south and east, are unaffected. The Light Division, which recruits from the midlands and southwest will actually gain a battalion, from disbanded regiments in the southwest.

The old regimental titles and traditions will be retained in the battalion titles of the new regiments e.g. "3rd (Black Watch) Battalion, Royal Regiment of Scotland".

It is reasonably safe to predict that the battalions of the new or amalgamated regiments might accept their new hatbadges, but won't dispense with any other items of tribal display of their former allegiance, like hackles, lanyards, vegetables and other flora, and so on. Any formal or semi-formal British army occasion will look more than ever like a zoo. The new regiments will also inherit lots more regimental commemoration days on which to get blotto.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Les from Hull
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 11:05 AM

The Yeomanry were cavalry, but they didn't serve abroad.

He may have been in an infantry regiment. The Highland Light Infantry or one of the Highland Line Regiments (the 42nd, 79th or (2nd).

If you can find the name of the barracks, you'll probably get the name of the regiment, assuming that it's the home depot. You may have a problem having only the last name, as many highlanders would have the same last (clan) name.

Anyway, it's not really the 'British' side, it's the Allied side. There were more Germans in the Allied army than British, but you never hear it called the German side.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Peace
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 10:15 PM

What's his name?


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,Gordon
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 07:46 PM

This is a great site. Some writters have substantial details of the events.

I have a relative who served at Waterloo for the British side. He would have been from the Inverness, Scotland area. I note in a responses that Yeomanry are from a specific area. I only have his last name and am willing to sort through unit lists, battle orders and other source material giving names. However, I'm not having much sucess in finding site references. I'm looking for a startin point.

My cousing has a letter from this soldier which references a "baracks" but I can't get access to it to read.


Any help will be appreciated.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,Gordon
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 07:38 PM


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 04:55 PM

Les,
Thanks for the help! I think that will certainly be useful for that part of the story. And who better to pick up for an escort than your best friend, hey? Wow, something finally fits. thanks again.
Hobbitmum


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Les from Hull
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 08:10 AM

In the Napoleonic Wars the regiments of Dragoon Guards are certainly heavy cavalry. The Dragoon Guard regiments had been Regiments of Horse, but were slightly downgraded (they could have slightly cheaper horses etc) to Dragoons. They were given the title Dragoon Guards to differentiate them from existing Dragoons, who they considered themselves senior to (and better than!).

Dragoons at the time had lost their dismounted role, which is why we had to have Light Dragoons. Even then, the Light Dragoons would never dismount. so we ended up having mounted riflemen in the Boer War by giving horses to infantry. You can never get a cavalryman off his horse! (see also HuwG post of 25 May).

It would be most expedient to send more than one person to check on enemy movements. If you only send one, you might not get him back! Unless he's a spy, in disguise. If you were sending an aide, because you needed someone whose ability you trusted, you would at least tell him to pick up an escort from the nearest light cavalry.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 10:08 PM

Les, Great idea making him an Aide-de-camp! i have his father being an MP so he could be well connected, besides the fact that the family was wealthy. I did know about Sir Walter Scott nad how he help start the unit. However some of my research shows that Wellington was there by Oct 18, and in fact some maps that show troop movement and position have his name on the maps for the Engish troop positions. would they do that if he weren't there? I don't know as I am not a military expert at all, just a history nut. Also in some research I got from the Royal Scots website indicates that the 6DG was both heavy and Light cavalry, and explains the difference. They do not say however if they were anywhere near Leipzig. Most likely not, that wouldn't be my luck. So The Aide-de-camp theory would be a great way to work the character into where he would need to be for the story. As I have him joining up with Wellington in The Pennisular Campaign, he could have easily impressed Wellington with his record in the Royal Edinburgh Volunteers and his ability. I mean he's a 30- something laywer with a suceesful record, so he is a smart person, well-connected so why not make him an Aide-de-camp. So many thanks for that idea. As far as the other two, one of the characters is his best friend who is in the same unit. Could more than one be sent to check on troop movement of the enemy? I think that could be plausible.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Les from Hull
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 09:05 AM

I'm sorry but he's not going to be wounded by 'shrapnel' either. Only the British used this type of ammunition, although the term was later used for the fragments of exploding shell. It was named after the inventor of the 'spherical case shot', as it was called - a Lt. Shrapnel. So he was hit by a piece of shell. And was this Leipzig still? If so it's a bloody long ride to Northern Spain/Southern France where Wellington was at the time.

Have you considered making him an aide-de-camp? Often young Captains (usually well-connected ones) would act as messengers to Generals, called an aide-de-camp, and may be sent to find out what was happening on other parts of the battlefield. Not really scouting as such, which would usually be a small unit of light cavalry. But he could discover some hidden movement of the enemy. The other two scouts could be what remained of a scouting party of Light Dragoons or Hussars (similar toops, different uniforms) and look to him as an officer to lead them.

One prominent member of the Edinburgh Light Dragoons was Sir Walter Scott, although he wasn't 'Sir' until 1820.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Kagan
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 07:14 AM

Wow! Great thread. Loadsa fantastic background. Can I return to the musical thread for a second. Does anyone know which regiment is involved in the song 'The Lancashire Lads'...It was last monday morning I overheard them say...etc. etc. and is there any background to the song.
K.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,Hobbitmum
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 12:46 AM

Les,
Wow what a way to burst my bubble! If you can help, I have him doing scouting duty and he is with two other scouts when some of Napoleon's Artillery "discover"them and he is fatally wounded by shrapnel trying to return to report to Wellington. He was originally part of the Royal Edinburgh Volunteer Light Dragoons which became a yoemanry orginazation, but I think I have him leaving it to join a regular army unit before that happens. I do appreciate your help as it is for people like you who may chance to read this story if it ever gets published that I am trying to be so painstakingly accurate about this. If you can come up with any suggestions on how to get him into a unit where he would be a scout, let me know. This part doesn't happen until later on in the story, but as I am working on the timeline and chapter outlines it would be helpful to have those little details down. Thanks.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Les from Hull
Date: 25 May 04 - 05:30 PM

Sorry to be pedantic, but there weren't any Captains of Light Dragoons at Leipzig, I'm not even sure about the Corporal's Guard, and I'm sure that you don't want to make him a Corporal anyway.

How about he's a Captain of Volunteers (or more correctly, Yeomanry) and he's visiting relatives in Germany. He accompanies his German or Austrian or Swedish or Russian cousin (say) on campaign and gets involved in the Battle of Nations at Leipzig. He has his uniform with him because he knows his (cousin) is in the Regular Army and doesn't want to be shown up. (In fact half the reason for having a Yeomanry Commission was the chance to wear a flash uniform, usually designed by the unit themselves).

The particular Yeomanry he would belong to would depend where in the United Kingdom he lives (they were 'local' units), and the unit he joins on campaign would depend on what you want him to experience during the battle. I couldn't find an Order of Battle for the Allied foces at the battle on the web, so that might mean a visit to the library for you.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: HuwG
Date: 25 May 04 - 01:56 PM

A quick digression. When they originally appeared, in the early 16th Century, "Dragoons" were supposed to be mounted infantry, armed with matchlock muskets or early flintlock "snaphaunces". About the time of the English Civil Wars (1642 - 1660), most armies included regiments of these troops. But as part of an almost inevitable progression, they would find that they couldn't stand up to determined infantry (they lacked pikes) or run away from cavalry (they got the worst horses), and they exchanged their firearms for swords and became cavalymen.

This happened to *all* regiments of dragoons, light dragoons and "light horse" raised in the British army during the 17th and 18th centuries. "Light Horse" were usually volunteer units, e.g. "Kingston's Light Horse", raised in Nottingham in 1745, and present at Culloden in the following year.

Only towards the end of the 19th Century, did the "Light Horse" or mounted infantry concept become fashionable again, with the invention of the magazine rifle. In the Boer War (1899 - 1902), the British army found that their Cavalry units, burdened with lances, sabres and masses of shiny bits and pieces which all had to be polished, were crippled by two or three days' hard service, while the various colonial and british light horse units were still going, regardless of their lowly social position.

And lack of sabres and class didn't stop Australian Light Horse units performing a few dramatic and effective charges in Palestine during World War I (Beersheba, Samakh).


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 04 - 11:22 PM

Walrus,
Thanks for the info, you have no idea how much that helped. As my character is a lawyer in civilain life I think he would have a high level of understanding. I chose to make him a captain in both the volunteers and the Light dragoons at Leipiz. Once again it's the frustration of trying to find a company that was there or if I can use "poetic lisence" could be there for the sake of the story. I know most of the people reading this story wouldn't have a clue, but it seems like if anyone here would read it they would tear that part of my story to bits. Not a pleasant thought for a neophite writer.
Thanks once again for your help.
Hobbitmum


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: The Walrus
Date: 22 May 04 - 08:56 PM

Hobbitmum,

You character has to transfer from Royal Scots Volunteer Light Dragoons to the Army abroad?
No problem. At this point there were no 'territorial' designations for most regiments and it was not uncommon to find recruiters from several different regiments turning up at hiring fairs and the like.
The Militia, Volunteer and 'Fencible units were also considered 'fair game' by recruiters and if your man was a 'trained' cavalryman<1>, he would be a prime target, especially if he was caught in the pre-1805 'invasion scare' (IIRC Rifleman Harris tells a similar tale of being recruited about the time of Corunna).
If a cavalry recruiter turned up at a RSVLD parade when emotion was running high, he might well leave with a recruit or two - regardless of where his regiment was 'supposed' to recruit<2>.

Regards

Walrus

<1>Levels of competence varied among some of the M,V & F units
<2> Providing the recruits could understand him, of course.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,Anne Croucher
Date: 22 May 04 - 06:03 PM

Honest - on Battle of Minden Eve the 'Mindenites' sit around in the mess and EAT ROSES. I knows cos I seed em doin it. And one of them did choke and change colour quite alarmingly. First aid was not required, fortunately but he was a bit quiet for the rest of the evening.

The green cockade was apparently issued to volunteers sent to Ireland but just when I can't find out - or how many times -

Now I never said they became stupid - some of the predicaments I have heard about would take a good deal of ingenuity to get into and a touch of genius to extricate oneself from. Most regiments keep books to record the better ones.

Anne


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 22 May 04 - 05:30 PM

BigPinkLad - My fault, counting Wales as a separate kingdom.
The Union Flag, or Union Jack, is the national flag of the United Kingdom and it is so called because it embodies the emblems of the three countries united under one Sovereign - the kingdoms of England and Wales, of Scotland and of Ireland (although since 1921 only Northern Ireland has been part of the United Kingdom).
...
The Welsh dragon does not appear on the Union Flag. This is because when the first Union Flag was created in 1606, the Principality of Wales by that time was already united with England and was no longer a separate principality.

http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/page398.asp

Beg your pardon
Wilfried


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST
Date: 22 May 04 - 02:30 PM

Thanks Les, that would help. I guess I'm looking for a unit, but four would do as they were reconnaisence. I'm trying to place this character and some of his close friends who would be serving under him in a larger unit. They could for the story's sake be only four during that part of the story. That would certainly make sense and make it easier to write.
Hobbitmum


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Les from Hull
Date: 21 May 04 - 01:15 PM

When I say 4 light dragoons, I mean just the four of them (they might have had a corporal as well). I'm not sure of the number of their regiment, I'll have to get back to you on that.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,ozmacca
Date: 20 May 04 - 08:51 PM

Hobbitmum, The 4th Light Dragoons (now the 4th Queen's Own Hussars)were originally raised as a regiment of six troops of Dragoons in Wessex in 1685 by the Honourable John Berkeley, as part of Parliament's reaction to the Monmouth Rebellion. Berkeley married Barbara Villiers, a friend of King's younger daughter, Anne. The regiment was then known as "The Princess Anne of Denmark's Regiment of Dragoons." (How do you fancy answering the phone for that lot?) The regiment fought for the crown during the Glorious Revolution, then switched to support William of Orange in 1688. They fought their first action in Scotland against royalists in 1689. They were commanded by Colonel Fitzhardinge in 1690, and the Princess title was dropped.

The regimental history is at

http://www.qrh.org.uk/history4a.htm


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,hobbitmum
Date: 20 May 04 - 08:21 PM

Thanks to all who posted to answer my questions. In checking with some others sources, ie websites and books, I came across the fact that The Scots Greys were indeed heavy cavalry, and not what I was looking for. The 4 light dragoons would definetey work, Les, but where were they from? My character is from the Edinburgh area, where he is a lawyer and a member of the Royal Scots Volunteer Light Dragoons a "home" militia formed by Sir Walter Scott in 1797. He joins The Royal Scots 4th Regiment, which was basically at home but sends units out to suppliment the other three-1st in America, 2ND IN Eygpt, the West Indies and India, and the 3rd in Corunna through Waterloo. And Snuffy the version I have doesn't have the Bonny Light Horseman returning from Spain. He is slain as he rides in to the battle, in my version. Thanks for the links, I will check them out.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 04 - 07:44 PM

Anne - Much earlier in this thread I thought it was generally agreed that the cockade is usually not really part of the regimental dress, but an additional badge, either formal or informal. It was worn for a number of reasons - from designating a special favour bestowed upon the wearer, through to which side you're on in a civil war. The colour depends on any one of those reasons, so the green cockade which you sing about is likely to have been worn by irregulars, militia, or rebels during one of the innumerable Irish troubles... or something.

And although many a soldier at Minden on inadequate rations might have wanted to rip up vegetables from the farmlands they were marching through, they were stuck with roses. The average soldier being what he was (thieving ratbags), they grabbed them instead and stuck them in their hats. There is (perhaps fortunately) no tradition of actually eating them. Putting on a uniform makes you look the same as your mates, but doesn't make you altogether stupid....


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,Anne Croucher
Date: 20 May 04 - 06:48 PM

I thought the cockade was green. That is what I sing.

The more I learn about customs and traditions of the armed forces the more I wonder what it is about putting on uniform that removes a man's natural common sense.

Rose petals are edible and give wine a nice touch of the exotic but you have to take them off the middle part and remove the white bit at the bottom because it contains enzymes which destroy the aroma - the habit of eating a whole rose on the annversry of the Battle of Minden is likely to require the application of the Heimlech manouver. A breathed in rose petal is difficult to dislodge.

One of the madder caesars once drowned quite a few of his guests in a downpouring of rose petals - probably accidentally - he ordered a shower of rose petals and I expect they didn't want him to feel they were being stingy.

Anne


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Les from Hull
Date: 20 May 04 - 05:25 PM

5th cavalry regiments - There was always a 5th Dragoon Guards, Princess Charlotte of Wales' Dragoon Guards, later the Royal Inniskilling Dragoon Guards.

The 5th light cavalry regiment I seem to remember was an Irish regiment that was disbanded for mutiny or something before the Napoleonic Wars but after the Wars another regiment was formed -the Royal Irish Lancers. It was this regiment which was combined in 1922 with the 16th Queen's Lancers (previously the 16th (Queen's) Light Dragoons to form the 16th/5th Lancers. Maybe the order of precedence was something to do with the fact the 'Irish' part was less relevant to the Crown in 1922.

And yes BPL - three arms in our flag; St George, St Andrew and St Patrick. Just don't get me going about the 'couterchange of saltires'.

Les


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 20 May 04 - 01:43 PM

Wilfried ... you said "The Union Jack doesn't count here, since it is an amalgam of four coats of arms,

Do you mean the Union Jack or the Union Flag -- I thought the Union Flag was an amalgam of only three, no?


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Hrothgar
Date: 20 May 04 - 07:07 AM

The 5th mustn't have always been vacant, ozmacca, because evetually they were merged with the 16th (lancers by then) to form the 16/5th Royal Irish Lancers.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Les from Hull
Date: 19 May 04 - 07:04 PM

The only British troops at Leipzig were the Royal Horse Artillery Rocket Troop (with Colonel Congreve) and 4 Light Dragoons who formed an escort for General (Wilson?) who was there as an military attache/advisor. I think anyway. If it matters that much get back to me and I'll check my sources.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 04 - 05:57 PM

The idea that the "folk" would preserve accurate historical detail through traditional songs has long been discredited, even Karl Dallas has recanted on this. Just enjoy the songs.


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Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 04 - 05:43 AM

"High Germany" is normally understood to be the Southern part of what became the German federation, while "Low Germany" was the northern part..... it says here...

. http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/2407/german.htm#HIGH%20AND%20LOW%20GERMAN

so the soldier who went to fight in "High Germany" could have been anywhere in the southern part of the country, or in Austria even... maybe Minden and other actions in that campaign?


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