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BS: The Fear of Imperfection
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Subject: The Fear of Imperfection From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 29 May 02 - 03:32 PM Well, that's actually the name of a song by Vin Garbutt, and it was set off by a trip to America, when it seemed to him that every girl ever he saw there seemed to have dental braces, as if the way they were to start with was always assumed to be wrong. And that led into him thinking about other things.
Something that came up in another thread set me thinking about the way that the fear of making mistakes, of being less than perfect and open to ridicule, can paralyse us. And that brought Vin's song to mind, and it seems to me that fear of physical imperfectioin and fear of making mistakes are really aspects of the same thing,
It happens in music all the time - so many people are literally frightened to open their mouths, so that singing and dancing and making music, which are the most natural things in the world, are turned into something where most people assume that their role is always to be spectators.
And that is true of almost everything - sports, speaking up in public, political action... Just try to imagine a world where people just didn't think like that. I think it'd be a far better place in all kinds of ways.
I think that is maybe the key thing about folk music, it challenges that way of thinking. Here's something Martin Carthy wrote: "If you listen to folk music from around the world, you are listening to a distillation over thousands of years involving large numbers of people who from nothing have arrived at some quite astonishig conclusions. Folk music...is people thinking deeply and emotionally and being able to articulate what they feel in music and dance."
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Subject: RE: BS: The Fear of Imperfection From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 29 May 02 - 03:33 PM And here is Vin Garbutt's song, which on the face of it is about something completely different:
Oh! Mother dear, the girls out here, own nature's beauty bright,
Oh! What use the sparkling blue eyes of Hitler's Aryan? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Fear of Imperfection From: Liz the Squeak Date: 29 May 02 - 03:49 PM It's the perceived imperfections that make us who and what we are. It's the imperceived imperfections that make us humans. LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Fear of Imperfection From: Ebbie Date: 29 May 02 - 04:14 PM A visiting Russian once told us that at a Russian party, everyone is expected to contribute to the entertainment. If you can't sing, you recite something. If you can't play an instrument, you sing for someone who does. I suspect that is how it used to be with parties in the west, before radio and television came along to show us how it's done. With the standards set by professionals in the studios- never mind that they may have done the same tune or song seven times before it was deemed acceptable- the passive viewer is intimidated beyond any thought of doing it himself. That's one reason I think it's so important to have 'homegrown' music, a place where everyone should feel safe enough to share something that pleases him or moves him in some way. One of the pluses of maturity is the belated recognition that imperfection doesn't kill! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Fear of Imperfection From: Cappuccino Date: 29 May 02 - 04:28 PM I live in terror of the imperfections on my own records. As a folk-singer ex-wife of mine said, 'make sure you're pleased with it before you issue it... you've got to live with it for ever'. There's an album we made last year which I simply refuse to play any more because it embarrasses me so much! - ianB |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Fear of Imperfection From: catspaw49 Date: 29 May 02 - 04:38 PM Gud thred! Inpurfeckshun skairs tha hell out uv me so i nevur du ennything what jus aint purrfeck!! Spa |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Fear of Imperfection From: Clinton Hammond Date: 29 May 02 - 04:41 PM The quest for perfection is totally irrational... Perfection does NOT exist anywhere... Everything is fallible...
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Subject: RE: BS: The Fear of Imperfection From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 29 May 02 - 05:10 PM Hi, Kevin:
It would be comforting to say that as you get older, you become less concerned with perfection and more comfortable with reality. That's a real blessing if you grow into the maturity, but not everyone does. Some people remain paralyzed by the fear of failing until the day they die. Someone said it the way I see it... don't remember who... The only thing worse than failing is not trying. Or something to that effect. The man(or woman) who can laugh at him(or her) self when they make a mistake has risen above the quest for perfection. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Fear of Imperfection From: Amos Date: 29 May 02 - 05:26 PM The thing is, you only have to be good enough to communicate. If you're doing that, screw the technical details. The mark of an artist is that he is mor einterested in communicating than he is in perfection, and knows, thereby, that it OK to send his work into the world. Ya know, if you look back, I suspect you might find that the many many times when you did NOT jump at an opportunity to communicate, and let inertia and dull silence speak for you instead, might be a LOT more embarassing than the times when you spoke up, acted, or sang out!! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Fear of Imperfection From: alanabit Date: 29 May 02 - 05:51 PM It's an interesting idea. I guess the main problem with perfection is that it can be boring. I remember watching the World Cup Final in 1994 - which had a technically amazing level of skill - and being about as excited as I would have been counting the cars passing by my window. Perfection can only ever be an ideal - and why be frightened of failing to achieve that? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Fear of Imperfection From: Jeri Date: 29 May 02 - 06:10 PM It's not the fear of imperfection that paralyzes people, it's the fear of how others will treat them because of it. When we were very small, we learned to walk. We fell a lot, but got back up because we wanted to walk, and our parents forgave our falling and helped us, encouraged us. I wonder what would have happened if we'd been punished for our less-than-perfect attempts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Fear of Imperfection From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 29 May 02 - 06:25 PM The great thing with computers is they let you make mistakes, and let you pick yourself up and do it again. Musical instruments are the same, so long as you aren't worried about people listening in.
A favourite quote of mine - and I know I've cited it here before, but then, that is what "favourite" means - is Chesterton's "If a thing is worth doing, it's worth doing badly".
Backing out from doing things because you don't think you're good enough looks like humility, but seen in one way, it's really closer to vanity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Fear of Imperfection From: Jeri Date: 29 May 02 - 06:49 PM One thing I've noticed as I've grown older is that this fear of making mistakes is sort of like being afraid of the dark. It's a hollow fear. What's the worst that can happen to me if I make a mistake playing music? Someone might get upset - sounds like their problem to me! If that 'someone' is me, it's my problem, and the only thing I can do about it is try not to make the same mistake again. There are plenty of mistakes. I find new ones. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Fear of Imperfection From: Amos Date: 29 May 02 - 06:58 PM Hey, Jeri, as long as you're finding nerw ones, you're doin' it right!! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Fear of Imperfection From: Ebbie Date: 29 May 02 - 07:57 PM Cletus, there's a guy with a weird name who is signing his name to your posts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Fear of Imperfection From: Pete Jennings Date: 29 May 02 - 08:02 PM A few schools of thought represented here... I'm almost paranoid with getting my guitar in tune before I go on, but if it ain't in tune, guess what, I'm the only one who notices... Last week on holiday, I went back to some friends' place after the pub closed and they insisted I played them some songs on a guitar that hadn't been tuned for about 2 years. I was way beyond tuning anything, but they loved the songs I played... "The audience would rather have 5 minutes of out-of-tune music than 5 minutes of tuning up" (Show Of Hands). DADGAD - Don't Alter Good Guitars All Day (Show Of Hands). If there's a moral, it is "Just Do It" (as good as you can, and if you're good, somebody will notice and appreciate it, if you're not so good, they'll still love you for getting up there and doing it). Keep it live! Pete
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Subject: RE: BS: The Fear of Imperfection From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 29 May 02 - 08:32 PM That'd be DAGGAD - a tuning I've not yet come across.
Tuning thread drift: I remember the first time I went to a concert of Indian music, a sitar I think, and this would have been a good time pre-Beatles.. I wasn't the only person there who didn't know much about Indian music.
Anyway, the musician spent a long time tuning, and I think he probably had some new strings that were stretching a bit. Finally he wrestled it into tune and swept his hand across the strings. Half the audience applauded, under the impression he had just finished his opening number.
I think the key thing is to do things as well as you can, but still be brave enough to do them even if as well as you can isn't very good. If you're naturally good at something, then you might be doing it for praise or reward; but if someone isn't much good, and still persists, you can be pretty sure they are doing it for the love of it.
And if you keep on doing something for the sheer love of it, in time that will very likely give it a quality that is actually worth listening to or looking at. Another favourite quote, from William Blake this time - "If the fool would persist in his folly he would become wise." |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Fear of Imperfection From: Jeri Date: 29 May 02 - 08:34 PM And there are those who screw around forever trying to get one string in tune, and it's the wrong string! I hear every little "almost on pitch" note I sing. I don't hear other people miss it (unless it's very noticable) because I just don't listen for it. To some extent, I really have to trust other people's judgement. If I left it to my own, I might never have started singing. Something made me willing to take the risk of letting others judge. Without risk, there's no progress. Without risk, there are no mistakes. One of the two best bosses I've had used to talk about 'sins of commission'. Basically, if we tried something and messed it up, we had to fix the mess, but we were often praised for taking the chance in the first place. Worked great, except for one authoritarian control freak we had in the office - I think she thought she was the only one who was supposed to have ideas and the folks who worked for her were just supposed to be quiet and do what she said. She eventually found another job. When I left that office, there was a lot of trust there - not just between us and the boss, but between us all. We had a chance to see just how smart everyone was when they were prodded or simply given a chance to take risks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Fear of Imperfection From: Ebbie Date: 29 May 02 - 08:55 PM Thanks for the laugh, Kevin! Imagine the sitar player did his concert in a somewhat bemused state. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Fear of Imperfection From: katlaughing Date: 29 May 02 - 11:22 PM Mom and Dad raised us to do our best, it didn't matter how it stacked up against anyone else's expectations, as long as we tried. It was all they expected and usually what we gave them. I never felt badly about trying anything unless I knew I could've done better. I will always be grateful for that; it gave me a lot of confidence to screw up or get it "right!"*bg* |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Fear of Imperfection From: Liz the Squeak Date: 30 May 02 - 12:20 AM Wow, Jeri - sounds like your boss is my boss in disguise! He has a very real paranoia about failing in front of his superiors, but doesn't want to know about any ideas we may have to make our life easier. We've had no time to do anything but the most basic and important of tasks and his bad management has screwed that. Rather than admit he was wrong and that others have ideas too, he's rearranging the entire department. LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Fear of Imperfection From: greg stephens Date: 30 May 02 - 06:41 AM The guy getting the round of applause for tuning the sitar reminds of somebody's reminiscences of watching Jelly Roll Morton taking off his flash overcoat, folding it so the fancy lining was displayed to its best advantage, and putting it neatly on top of the piano. A masterpiece of showmanship, and a great start to the evening's entertainment. Sorry, nothing to do with the fear of imperfection, but I like the story. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Fear of Imperfection From: Whistle Stop Date: 30 May 02 - 08:16 AM As I recall, George Harrison's Concert for Bangladesh album started with one set by Ravi Shankar. At the outset, he spent a couple of minutes tuning, the crowd broke into applause at the conclusion, and he laughingly said "if you like the tuning so much, you should really like the music!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Fear of Imperfection From: Hrothgar Date: 30 May 02 - 08:44 AM The songs of the people do not wait to be sung by perfect singers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Fear of Imperfection From: Jeri Date: 30 May 02 - 10:40 AM Liz, maybe I wasn't clear. My boss was great. He was a true pleasure to work for because he encouraged and supported creativity, and willingly gave up some of his authority to those who worked for him. The control freak wasn't my boss, I was hers, and she had a couple of people working for her. She was absolutely miserable, because the folks working for other bosses were making a lot of progress and getting recognition. Because she wanted to do everything herself and stick with what was tried and true, her people got little recognition and neither did she. When she left, one of her former underlings was put in charge and the programs improved by leaps and bounds. All that stuff they'd wanted to do before but couldn't... Anyway, it may be easier for a majority of folks to cover up perceived imperfections or make them go away than to learn how to live with them. I think our preferences for tactics may have to do with our senses of humor as it applies to our own egos. I can laugh at myself and this is part of who I am. If I goof, I can make a joke of it. Mistakes can be opportunities. I'm never going to be perfect, and I'm here to enjoy life. Being disgusted with myself or others over mistakes is not something I enjoy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Fear of Imperfection From: Kim C Date: 30 May 02 - 05:38 PM We had a little hootenanny at my house once, several years ago, with my friend Stan. I made the comment about not being in tune, or something, I don't even remember. And Stan said something I have never forgotten, and have repeated often: If you want perfect music, the CD player's in the other room. :-) Being the typical Virgo perfectionist (as is Mister), I don't like to make mistakes. But most of the time, it's things that only I will notice. I have to say, however, I am probably more afraid of success than imperfection. I'm not sure why - either I think I don't deserve it, or people will expect me to be successful all the time and I don't know if I can live up to it! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Fear of Imperfection From: rich-joy Date: 30 May 02 - 05:43 PM Though I quoted a larger bit in the "Singing from Books : WHY?" thread, back in April, I thought the following bit had some relevance to this thread. It's from Jim Lloyd, the then new Director of the EFD&SS (UK), c. 1985, : "There's the problem that we've grown into this idea of "excellence". When I was young, everybody had a party piece. That's stopped now. The level of performance has got so high, we can listen to the best in the world, you feel inadequate. The whole Arts structure is to have academies where you take people who are good and make them excellent, then everyone else who's mediocre sits around and watches them. With Folk, we're fighting against that. The basis of Folk is that it's communal, everyone can do it, and we have to get back to that. That's not to say you SHOULDN'T master the Art, as many old singers DID - too many people think you can just stand up a bit drunk and do it. There's more to it than THAT!!" Also of relevance is that great Claudia Schmidt song called "WE HOLD BACK" ~ if it's not in the DT, I'll post it separately. CheerS! R-J |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Fear of Imperfection From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 May 02 - 07:14 PM One of the people deal with embarrassment is to make a joke of it, and the joke they make tends to be, to do it a lot worse than they actually can, in the hope that when people laugh they can take pride in the laughter as an achievement.
Being serious, about anything really, is felt as taking a risk, it involves coming out from cover. Maybe people involved in folk music start with a bit of an advantage here - we've had to come out from cover already, and we know we're a bit of a laughing stock to begin with, so we don't need to worry about it.
For a lot of us that's all in the past, and we got into it at a time maybe when it wasn't so stigmatised. I get the impression that the way young people often get over this is by being shit-hot musicians.
But the young people who are way short of being shit-hot musicians and who still get involved today - they are the ones I really admire; and maybe they are the ones who really matter most for the future, if the music is going to hold on to its capacity to be truly participative.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Fear of Imperfection From: Bullfrog Jones Date: 30 May 02 - 08:08 PM Reaading this thread made me think of my son, Mike. He'll be 14 next week and a really nice, bright, polite kid. He's a very talented footballer (soccer, that is), he regularly wins Man Of The Match awards, and come the end of the season he always picks up one or more of the players/parents/managers Player of The Season awards. But every week, out on the pitch he beats himself up because he thinks he isn't good enough. If he tries something and it doesn't come off, he'll descend into a black mood, his body language changes and he stops contributing until he comes out of it. His team mates are always really supportive and try to encourage him, and he's never had anything but support and encouragement from his mother and me. He knows that when he goes into one of his 'stresses' he's just wasting energy that could be channelled positively, but he can't help it. He knows, on a rational level that he's a good player, maybe a very good one, but he'll still come off the pitch thinking he's rubbish if he hasn't lived up to his own standards. I really don't know how to help him, beyond talking through his feelings and giving him my love and support but I think that the football is just the most obvious manifestation of a deeper problem. And what really worries me is that he's recently started getting into playing the guitar..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Fear of Imperfection From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 May 02 - 08:19 PM There are professional football players like that, and great ones. It is seen often as an important part of the way they drive themselves to get better, as well as being destructive. (And the same goes for some musicians.)
I wonder if that's really true at all, or if it's just a quirk of personality that really doesn't help, but they're good enough to override it, without overcoming it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Fear of Imperfection From: khandu Date: 30 May 02 - 08:23 PM I am perfectly imperfect! khandu |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Fear of Imperfection From: GUEST Date: 30 May 02 - 11:16 PM And I, Khandu, imperfectly perfect! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Fear of Imperfection From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 31 May 02 - 05:26 AM Now I'd say imperfectly imperfect. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Fear of Imperfection From: Amos Date: 31 May 02 - 08:49 AM I wonder if that's really true at all, or if it's just a quirk of personality that really doesn't help, but they're good enough to override it, without overcoming it. Kevin: It doesn't help as much as using the some energy to constantly improve, without the self-abnegation, would do. Having strong feelings about it is a big plus, but strong positive feelings would work even better! I am pretty certain of that! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Fear of Imperfection From: rich-joy Date: 31 May 02 - 09:01 AM Note re earlier posting : added lyrics of Claudia Schmidt's "We Hold Back" in a thread this morning ... Cheers! R-J |