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DTStudy: Clare's Dragoons
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Subject: DTStudy: Clare's Dragoons From: Nigel Parsons Date: 31 May 02 - 03:04 PM This is an edited DTStudy thread, and all messages posted here are subject to editing and deletion. This thread is intended to serve as a forum for corrections and annotations for the Digital Tradition song named in the title of this thread. Search for other DTStudy threadsCLARE'S DRAGOONS When, on Ramillies' bloody field, The baffled French were forced to yield, The victor Saxon backward reeled Before the charge of Clare's dragoons. The flags we conquered in that fray, Look lone in Ypres' choir, they say, We'll win them company today, Or bravely die like CIare's dragoons. Viva la, for Ireland's wrong! Viva la, for Ireland's right! Viva la, in battle throng, For a Spanish steed and sabre bright! Another Clare is here to lead, The worthy son of such a breed The French expect some famous deed, When Clare leads on his bold dragoons. Our colonel comes from Brian's race, His wounds are in his breast and face, The bearna baoghil is still his place, The foremost of his bold dragoon, Viva la, the new brigade! Viva la, the old one too! Viva la, the rose shall fade And the shamrock shine forever new! Oh! comrades, think how Ireland pines, Her exiled lords, her rifled shrines, Her dearest hope, the ordered lines, And bursting charge of Clare's dragoons. Then fling your green flag to the sky, Be "Limerick!" your battle-cry,, And charge, till blood floats fetlock-high Around the track of Clare's dragoons. Viva la, the new brigade! Viva la, the old one too! Viva la, the rose shall fade And the shamrock shine forever new! Note: The Irish Brigades ---including Clare's Dragoons--- were the most famed and formidable soldiers of all Europe. To quote George II : "Cursed be the laws which deprive me of such subjects!" @Irish @rebel @soldier @war filename[ CLAREDRG Tune file : CLAREDRG CLICK TO PLAY
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Subject: RE: DTStudy: Clare's Dragoons From: Nigel Parsons Date: 31 May 02 - 03:20 PM I've started this new thread as my source (The Oxford Song Book (1919) compiled by Percy C Buck, contains an extra verse. Checking on the 'net', I find the same song in several places in exactly the same form as on the DT. @ Prof's Trad Music pages, Celtic-otter.com, & zaphod/lyrics/clares_dragoons. Unfortunately, the identical lyrics ALL include "Clare" in the last line of the first verse spelt with a numerical "1" i.e. C1are. I don't know where the words originated, but it is clear that three of the sites have merely been done with a "cut and paste", without even a cursory proof read. The only other "early" source I find is the 'Library of Congress' which has this song on an early songsheet, undated, but put as late 1800s. This version also includes an additional verse, but not that quoted in the Oxford song book. In Both cases, the additional verse is included as verse 2, and the two choruses are applied to alternate verses. Additional verse from Oxford Song Book The brave old lord died near the fight, But, for each drop he lost that night, A Saxon cavalier shall bite The dust before Lord Clare's Dragoons. For never, when our spurs were set, And never, when our sabres met, Could we the Saxon soldiers get To stand the shock of Clare's Dragoons. |
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Subject: RE: DTStudy: Clare's Dragoons From: Nigel Parsons Date: 31 May 02 - 04:10 PM Additional verse seen in both OSB & Library of Congress. There's not a man, in squadron, here, Was ever known to flinch or fear, Though first in charge and last in rear, Have ever been Lord Clare's Dragoons! But, see! we'll soon have work to do, To shame our boasts, or prove them true; For, hither comes the English Crew, To sweep away Lord Clare's Dragoons! Correction to my second posting, The Oxford Song Book contains 4 verses, of which 2 are in the DT: The Library of Congress contains 4 verses, of which 3 are in the DT. "When on Ramillie's" all 3 versions "The Brave old lord" OSB only "Another Clare" Library of Congress & DT "There's not a man" Library of Congress & OSB "Oh! comrades think" all 3 versions br The Library of Congress version was found @ Clare's Dragoons togethr with a very large selection of 19th century song sheets.
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Subject: RE: DTStudy: Clare's Dragoons From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 31 May 02 - 09:05 PM There are a lot of sites which contain a large amount of material copied from the DT (usually without attribution); "Celtic Otter" is one of them. It is pretty much worthless as a resource. |
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Subject: RE: DTStudy: Clare's Dragoons From: MartinRyan Date: 02 Jun 02 - 04:55 PM "Clare's dragoons" was written by Thomas Davis, in the "Nation" newspaper around 1840 or so. According to Zimmerman's "Songs of Irish Rebellion" it was then frequently reprinted on broadsides. I'll dig out the original words when I get a chance - and see if we can dig up some broadside sets on the Web. Regards |
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Subject: RE: DTStudy: Clare's Dragoons From: MartinRyan Date: 02 Jun 02 - 05:04 PM Click here for a broadside copy at the Bodeian. Regards |
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Subject: RE: DTStudy: Clare's Dragoons From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 02 Jun 02 - 05:09 PM At Bodleian Library Broadsides: Clare's dragoons Printed c.1860 by H. De Marsan, Dealer in Songs, Toy-books &c. No. 54 Chatham St. N.Y. A much-admired song called Lord Clare's dragoon[s] Printed by Haly of Cork, 18--. At America Singing (Library of Congress): Clare's dragoons. H. De Marsan, Dealer, ... No. 54 Chatham Street, N. Y. [n. d.] |
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Subject: RE: DTStudy: Clare's Dragoons From: MartinRyan Date: 02 Jun 02 - 05:15 PM "Songs and Ballads of Young Ireland" (1896) by Martin McDermott, gives all five verses given above. It's based on the original "Spirit of the Nation" book in which the song was published. Regards |
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Subject: RE: DTStudy: Clare's Dragoons From: Nigel Parsons Date: 02 Jun 02 - 08:28 PM Thanks; the foregoing agree with the verses found so far, and with the comment I made earlier about the Library of Congress (LoC.). Unfortunately, the copy from Cork only appears to show one chorus, apart from after the final verse, and is (as for the LoC.version) undated. The Library of Congress version is a printed songsheet (clearer than the Cork version) But, using the LoC. version means we need to consider their other holdings, and (in trying to date the songsheet by comparison with others by the same publisher) I found the following. 12TH REGIMENT, NEW-YORK STATE MILITIA. AIR: Viva la.--By Archibald SCOTT The gallant Twelfth where e'er they go, Are sure to rout the Rebel Foe, For Stars and Stripes they'll strike a blow. Will make the traitors yield. Our cause baptized in Martyr's blood, Who for their country nobly stood, Shall be preserved by yeomen good, With gallant Butterfield. Chorus: Viva la for freedom's right, Viva la for freedom's wrong, Viva la to shades of night, We'll sweep the southron rebel throng. Our fathers brave, who fought and died For that dear flag, our joy and pride Did this grand sacred trust confide To us for to maintain; Then shall we see it in the dust, And let our swords in scabbards rust? No! by that Heav'n in which we trust, With life we'll it sustain. Chorus: Viva la the twelfth Brigade, Viva la for Stripes and Stars, Viva la the South shall fade Before our Northern sons of Mars. Another year shall not pass by, Ere Davis shall, like Haman high, On his own gallows dog-like die, A traitor's fearful doom. There's Twiggs and Beauregard yet shall rue Their baseness to white, red and blue, To Stephens Floyd and all the crew We'll give an Arnold's tomb. Chorus: Viva la for Butterfield, Viva la for his command, Who'll make SLAVISH rebels yield, And sweep them from our glorious land. There's not a man now by him led, Who would not dare his blood to shed For rights for which so many bled, Of freedom's bravest sons. The South will soon have work to do, Their boasting we shall soon subdue, Our Soldiers all are white men true, Well skill'd with swords and guns. Chorus: Viva la for General Scott, Viva la for Lincoln too: The Southron rebels' bones shall rot E'er we shall lower white, red and blue. H. DE MARSAN, Publisher. Songs, ballads, toy-books. 60 Chatham str. New-York. Obviously, there is a similarity in Metre, scansion, and rhyme scheme. Also the choruses follow an almost identical pattern. The question now is, which is original, and which derivative (or, is either original!) ? Looking at the addresses given for the publisher, we see that he has moved premises on Chatham St. (or the street has been re-numbered.). The songsheet for "Clare's Dragoons" clearly shows a change of address suggeting that this was published later than the song of The Twelth Regiment (publication date may not be related to date of writing) The address change has been made (apparently) by chiseling out the original street number, and replacing it with new type. Also, the Song of The Twelfth is quoted as by "Scott, Archibald" and to the tune of "Air: Viva la - by Archibald Scott" I thought I was starting with a simple correction for a DTStudy !!! How mistaken I was ! Nigel
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Subject: RE: DTStudy: Clare's Dragoons From: GUEST Date: 02 Jun 02 - 11:23 PM Military history wise, Nigel, the 12th was an American Civil War unit - with lyrical references to "the South shall fade... and Southron rebel... etc. It seems to me that the already well known song about the original Clare's regiment of dragoons, a unit of Irish soldiers in French service since Ramillies (at least) was simply pinched and re-written. New York would have enough Irish inhabitants to be thrilled and aroused by the same tune. Clare's certainly pre-dates the 12th.... whatever the provenance of the original verses might be. |
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Subject: RE: DTStudy: Clare's Dragoons From: Nigel Parsons Date: 03 Jun 02 - 06:16 AM Guest: Thanks, I tend to agree with your conclusion, but we're trying to "Nail it down" conclusively. I've been in touch with Kenneth Wooster, who keeps a website for "The 12th New York", but who was unaware of the song. I feel the salient point of his reply is worth quoting in full (for now) "Nevertheless, I think that the song sheet can be dated to some time between April 1861 and February 1862. The 12th Militia existed for many years prior to the American Civil War as a unit of the state's civil guard. They were sent into Federal service for three months at the outbreak of hostilities. From here the history is confused and confusing. As you will notice in the first few paragraphs of my file at 12th New York that the organization continued to exist more or less as the 12th NY State Militia (sent into federal service) until in February 1862 it was consolidated into the newly formed 12th New York Volunteer Infantry Regiment. Although the 12th Militia was reconstituted after the war, I believe that it did not exist as an organization during the American Civil War after February 1862. Thus my end date of February 1862, and since the lyrics speak of the southron [sic] rebels the words must have been written after Fort Sumter was attacked in April 1861. " This gives us a very short period for the origin of the "12th New York" version. Nigel
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Subject: RE: DTStudy: Clare's Dragoons From: Nigel Parsons Date: 03 Jun 02 - 07:29 AM Having a date for "The Twelfth" of 1861-62, And Martin giving us a date of 1840 for "Clare's Dragoons" (Thomas Osbourne Davis died in 1845), clarifies the fact that "The Twelfths" is derivative of "Clare's Dragoons". It would seem that Archibald Scott intended to have his name associated with "the air: Viva la". This, though, was presumably the same tune already in use for "Clare's Dragoons". |
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Subject: RE: DTStudy: Clare's Dragoons From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 03 Jun 02 - 09:13 AM Unfortunately, the DT entry names no source for the tune, which is very similar to the example in Stanford-Petrie mentioned below, though the note-values differ. It had nothing much to do with Archibald Scott, of course. The following two references are taken from David Kuntz's The Fiddler's Companion: VIVE LA! (THE FRENCH ARE COMING). Irish, March (2/4 time, "with spirit"). D Major (Roche): C Major (Stanford/Petrie). Standard. AB (Stanford/Petrie): AAB (Roche). CLARE(S) DRAGOONS. Irish, English; Polka. D Mixolydian ('A' part) & D Major ('B' part) [Carlin]: D Major [Mallinson]. Standard. AABB. T:Clare's Dragoons The tunes are essentially the same. Another song set to Vive La can be seen at the Bodleian: The Irishman: To the tune of: Vive La Haly Printer south Main street Cork, 18-- There is also a lyric by James Connolly, Human Freedom, set to Clare's Dragoons: Lyr Add: The Songs of James Connolly Robert Burns set songs to two of the earlier forms of the melody mentioned above: A Song. -On Miss P- K-. (Loch Eroch Side) in 1784/5 and I'm o'er young to Marry Yet in 1788.
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Subject: RE: DTStudy: Clare's Dragoons From: Nigel Parsons Date: 21 Jun 02 - 09:01 AM Refresh: in an attempt to get some interesting threads back in the system |
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Subject: RE: DTStudy: Clare's Dragoons From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Jun 02 - 03:56 PM Does anyone agree with me that there's a similarity in the tune to Morgan Magan? |
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Subject: RE: DTStudy: Clare's Dragoons From: GUEST Date: 21 Jun 02 - 04:05 PM McGrath, I'd agree that there is some superficial similarity. I don't however think that the two tunes are related. |
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Subject: RE: DTStudy: Clare's Dragoons From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Jun 02 - 09:12 PM Here's a midi of Morgan Magan (on Contemplator's splendid site.
And here is a page with a midi of Clare's Dragoons from a site with a pretty comprehensive set of songs, among other things. |
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Subject: RE: DTStudy: Clare's Dragoons From: Lighter Date: 28 Sep 18 - 03:21 PM The "Vive La/ Clare's Dragoon's" tune clearly derives from a very similar tune called "Willy was a Wanton Wag." The melody of "Will..." (sic) appeared in "Aria di Camera...A Choice Collection of Scotch, Irish & Welsh Airs for the Violin and German Flute by the following masters: Mr. Alex. Urquahart of Edinburgh, Mr. Dermot O'Connar [sic] of Limrick [sic], Mr. Hugh Edwards of Carmarthen” (London: Dan. Wright, [ca1727]). One presumes, then, that the tune was composed by Alexander Urquahart, who has not been certainly identified. The words of "Willy was a Wanton Wag" likewise date from 1727, appearing in "A New Miscellany of Songs" (London: A. Moore), pp. 202-203. Haydn published an arrangement of "Willie..." (sic), with the words, in the 1790s. The Irish collector George Petrie (d. 1866) knew the tune (in "The Complete Petrie Collection") as "Vive La, or The French are Coming." For various versions of the tune, which was evidently very popular in the 18th century, see the Traditional Tune Archive, which (very) eventually led me to this information, The 1727 lyrics: Willy was a wanton Wag, The blythest Lad that e'er I saw, At bridals still he bore the Brag, And carried aye the Gree awa. His Doublet was of Zetland Shag, And wow but Willy he was braw. And at his Shoulder hang a Tag That pleas'd the Lasses best of a'. He was a Man without a Clag, His heart was frank without a Flaw, And ay whatever Willy said, It was still haden as a Law. His Boots they were made of the Jag, When he went to the Weapon-Shaw, Upon the Green nane durst him brag, The Fiend a ane amang them a'. And was not Willy well worth Gowd? He wan the Love of Great and Sma'; For after he the Bride had kiss'd, He kiss'd the Lasses hale-fal a'; Sae merrily round the Ring they row'd, When be the Hand he led them a', And Smack on Smack on them bestow'd, By Virtue of a standing Law. And was na Willy a great Loun, As shyre a Lick as e'er was seen? When he danc'd with the Lasses round, The Bridegroom speer'd where he had been. Quoth Willy, I've been at the Ring, With bobbing, Faith my Shanks are Sair; Gae ca' your Bride and Maidens in For Willy he dow do nae mair. Then rest ye, Willy, I'll gae out, And for a wee fill up the Ring, But, Shame light on his souple Snout, He wanted Willy's wanton Fling. Then straight he to the Bride did fare, Says, Well's me on thy bony Face, With bobbing Willy's Shanks are Sair, And I am come to fill his Place. Bridegroom, she says, you'll spoil the Dance, And at the Ring you'll ay be lag, Unless like Willy ye advance; (O! Willy has a wanton Leg) For wi't he learns us a' to steer, And foremast ay bears up the Ring; We will find nae sic dancing here, If we want Willy's wanton Fling. |
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Subject: RE: DTStudy: Clare's Dragoons From: Lighter Date: 28 Sep 18 - 10:19 PM Norman Blake recorded a version of "Clare's" called "Constitution March" on the album, "Far Away, Down on a Georgia Farm": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHVmsrGq9Co Where did the new title come from? The tune is not that of H. Krummacher's "Constitution March" (1860): https://levysheetmusic.mse.jhu.edu/collection/012/073 |
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