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Cop Killer IS objectionable
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Cop Killer IS objectionable |
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Subject: RE: Cop Killer IS objectionable From: Jon W. Date: 28 Apr 98 - 12:01 PM In a society were parents refuse or are unable to exercise parental responsibility, the "responsibility vacumn" will be filled by extra-familial organizations. Two such organizations are gangs and governments. These two types of organizations are inherently in conflict. As each increases its own power in order to combat the other, the common guy loses freedom to both. Censorship should not be necessary in a free society, but if a free society refuses to exercise responsibility, conditions arise in which outlaw gangs thrive, governments take (or are given) power to oppose them, and society loses its freedoms. Don't say I didn't warn you. |
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Subject: RE: Cop Killer IS objectionable From: rosebrook Date: 28 Apr 98 - 10:42 AM I don't think that this song has ANY merit. Certainly the lyrics are frightening, and after hearing it, the musicality of it seems devoid of substance and of interest to me. I don't like one thing about this song. However, I despise songs/protests/letters to the editor/any public statement that condones bombing abortion clincics, beating up gays, ...public gatherings of gun-toting white supremists make me uncomfortable: I don't like that kids are brainwashed into this kind of lifestyle. So who is to be censored? The writer of the song? "Hey! Your band can't sing that song on the street corner!" The publisher of the song? The radio stations playing the song? Who is the person or committee that you propose facilitate the consoring? There are a ton of things I don't like. I really hate pornography glorifying violence against women. I think many women are brutalized and the reason can be traced back to pornography. But last week, I would NOT sign the petition going around to get rid of the new adult bookstore that came into the community. If the store is operating within the bounds of the law, leave it alone or change the law. If there is a book you don't like at the library, don't check it out, BUT I MIGHT WANT TO!! If there's a song you don't like on the radio, turn it off. Tell your kids why you turned it off. Do whatever actions you want to do to protest the song, but don't for a MINUTE allow any governmental official to have the power to decide what song I can hear, or what book I can read, or who can gather to discuss whatever deplorable agenda they may have. Rosebrook |
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Subject: RE: Cop Killer IS objectionable From: aldus Date: 28 Apr 98 - 07:24 AM If a song like this were written about a particular racial, religious or ethnic group it would be regarded as hate literature, and that is exactly what this is and in this country hate literature is against the law. People whi blither away about censorship seldom use their freedom of thought. |
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Subject: RE: Cop Killer IS objectionable From: Joe Offer Date: 28 Apr 98 - 01:18 AM I have trouble with this one, too. I sure wouldn't have wanted my kids exposed to a constant diet of songs like "Cop Killer" when they were in their early teens and younger. My ex and I made a valiant attempt to screen the music our kids bought, but I think we eventually lost the battle by the time they got into high school. It got to the point that our attempts at screening caused more friction and ill will than the music would. So my eldest son grew up to be a punk rocker, and his first record had a "hit" called "Letter Bomb" and a cute little calypso tune called "The Fuck of Love." He went through a phase of spouting all sorts of hateful propaganda that had little grounding in logic, and he got himself into a couple of situations where he tried to make the cops get angry at him, so he could prove his point. Oh - and he supported himself by shoplifting from "f---ing capitalists." He's settled down now, but for a couple of years, he pushed this propaganda on hundreds of kids. So, I have the feeling that my kids got caught in a flood of hateful propaganda that was too strong for their parents to counteract. I think this would be a better world for kids without this kind of stuff, but I'm not sure how to control it. I can't accept the idea of government censorship, and I'm not even sure I like the idea of censorship by record companies and retailers. At least, though, there ought to be age restrictions on certain music. Certainly, "Cop Killer" may have artistic merit - but it is also very powerful propaganda that can be very effective in swaying the minds of kids. I think it's important that kids are not exposed to this sort of stuff until they have the intellectual and emotional maturity to deal with it. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Cop Killer IS objectionable From: Bill D Date: 27 Apr 98 - 11:20 PM Boy, do I have trouble with this!!! I have always opposed censorship....all through history various groups have used various arts...including music, to describe and object to perceived inequities. Some even 'suggest' solutions that defy and confront the current 'authority'....and years later we remember and celebrate those 'causes' by singing their songs, etc. and then I imagine myself a 'good' cop on the streets of L.A., hearing lyrics which are nothing more than a hate-filled incitement to kill ME! umm...hmmm...somehow all the arguements about the evils of censorship ring a bit hollow when I know 14 year old kids are listening to this and looking at me as nothing more than 'enemy' wearing an easily recognizable uniform! As some have said, 'good' music will survive, the crap will eventually be forgotten....but the crap can get you killed tomorrow! Yes, I know it is not direct cause & effect, but we all know how powerful that medium is in the minds of kids. I am somehow tempted to say,(or TRY to say) "ok, I can't stop you from writing and singing anything you want....but I will NOT allow you to mass-produce millions of copies commercially and play it on national TV!" ...Who am I to judge what is acceptable? Well, who is this group "Body Count" to suggest that almost everyone wearing the wrong uniform should be 'target dejour'? Maybe I should just organize a police chorus, and write songs suggesting that gang members should be shot on sight! (try THAT and see about 1st amendment rights!) I just don't know!! It is too hard for me...I have never been one who can simply proclaim "THIS is correct...THAT isn't" Almost every moral dilema is context-sensitive, despite the tendency of some to want a simple, short answer! ...I decry the situations that led anyone to WRITE such a song, but I also decry the attitude OF the song!...Philosophy from Plato on is full of counter examples about such situations...."a man owns a weapon legally...is is justified to take it away from him when he is drunk?" etc.
I am reminded of a little poem: |
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Subject: RE: Cop Killer IS objectionable From: Max Date: 27 Apr 98 - 10:13 PM The song was written from a perspective, which is done sometimes in art. The perspective is the street, LA, war zone childhood. It tells a story. It is art. |
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Subject: RE: Cop Killer IS objectionable From: Pete M Date: 27 Apr 98 - 10:02 PM Steve T. Actually I agree completely with your last paragraph, and do not condone or support any company or shareholder who makes a profit from the glorification of violence, either in marketing this song, the production of "Action/ splatter" movies or any other medium you care to name. If that was the import of the previous posts then I misunderstood and apologise. If I did not, then whatever my opinion of the song in question, I will stick with Voltaire and defend Body Counts' right to sing it. Not exactly being in the first flush of youth, I can sympathise with Old timer, but must disagree with him/her. Apart from getting very hot under the collar that some one thinks they have the right to "protect" me from things they would rather I did not know, I have two fundamental problems with complaints like this, 1. Where does it end? Are Union songs acceptable? are Black rights songs; and 2. who decides - quis custodiet ipsos custodes. If this song was written/performed purely for money then that is an end to it, but as Chet pointed out many youngsters relate to it, so - if you don't like the song, don't try to censor it, go out and fight to change the system that gave rise to it! Pete M - Getting down off hobby horse and going away mumbling into beard. |
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Subject: RE: Cop Killer IS objectionable From: steve t Date: 27 Apr 98 - 08:54 PM We're talking about allowing a company and its shareholders (that rely on the protection of the law) to make a profit from from promoting the thrill-killing of cops. It just doesn't make sense. Chet: Government censorship--absolutely not! Why not? Yes, people's parents are cheaper and usually better able to distinguish harmful from harmless, but sometimes some of them DO need help. Otherwise, for example, how do you explain all those teenage pregnancies? I really do not understand why people, Americans especially, seem so upset about the idea of restrictions on emotional, nearly fact-free promotions of behaviors and attitudes. Aren't these promotions markedly different from distributing ideas and information? Pete wrote: ...whats so different...from..."across the way they stretch a line to catch the neck and break the spine of the dirty blackleg miner.."? Well, I'd have to say one difference is that the mine workers were facing starvation and disease and the union leaders were often facing summary execution at the hands of Pinkerton's men if their identities were discovered. Another difference may be that the union song probably is more concerned with politics and survival, and less with the thrill of killing. In any event, I doubt that anybody made a profit from selling the anti-scab folk song, or promoted it for the sake of making a profit.
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Subject: RE: Cop Killer IS objectionable From: dick greenhaus Date: 27 Apr 98 - 07:48 PM The folk sing great songs. The folk sing mediocre songs The folk sing crappy songs. Which group any one song belongs to depends upon the one who's listening (Yes, I have strong feelings about what's crap and what's not--they don't control this site). If you don't like it, delete it. dick |
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Subject: RE: Cop Killer IS objectionable From: Pete M Date: 27 Apr 98 - 07:27 PM The OED defines censor(ship) as *Official* licensing or suppressing as immoral, seditious, or inopportune. So parental guidance, or making a personal choice not to promulgate a song, is not to my mind censorship. Banning it because it upsets "Authority", however that is defined, is. I would be interested to know if those who object to this song do so out of a deep conviction and abhorrence of violence, or merely because it targets the Old Bill, the pigs, the filth or whatever else the law enforcement agency in your area is known as. The latter was certainly the case in NZ. The whole point of this type of song is that it *is* seditious, in that it attacks the existing power base and their agencies as do Dirty Blackleg miner, High Sherrif of Hazard, Joe Hill etc etc. Do we ban them? I may not agree with the proposed "solution" in this case, but at least it made a lot more people aware that the relationship between a section of the population and the police is somewhat less than cosy. Is this song abhorrent but Blow the man Down, with its: "I met a young copper a walking his beat...and I knocked and I booted and blew him right down" OK, merely because its old? I find it poignant that so soon after the celebrations to mark the anniversary of Paul Robesons birth, people in this of all fora, still advocate censorship and the suppression of songs aimed at challenging and changing society. As Pete Seeger wrote "...saint Joe McCarthy is dead and gone." but his spirit still lingers. In sorrow Pete M |
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Subject: RE: Cop Killer IS objectionable From: chet w Date: 27 Apr 98 - 06:48 PM Government censorship--absolutely not! Parental censorship--a must! I am a teacher at a high school inside a correctional facility for juveniles. My students walk down the halls every day reciting albums full of lyrics such as those quoted above. While I do not argue that music or any other media can force you to do anything, and I do argue that the responsibility for behavior is always the property of the behaver, I can tell you that young people who already find themselves at odds with the law or some other standards of society (many of which may be senseless and negative) take great comfort and support from violent music and other media. While it may not force behavior, it certainly does make that behavior seem more normal or feasible to them. When I was their age, there certainly were some violent youth (though they rarely killed anybody), but their was no mainstream music, movies, games, tv, lines of expensive clothing, and ambiguous role models to support those violent tendencies. If anyone still believes that media does not have a powerful effect on behavior, please call such corporate giants as Pepsi and Nike and let them know they can stop wasting their money on those advertisements meant to influence our buying behavior. I didn't expect to be writing about this subject in this forum, but I have very strong feelings about it, backed by much firsthand experience. If anyone wants to continue the discussion, I'll be glad to contribute. Strongly, Chet W. |
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Subject: RE: Cop Killer IS objectionable From: Old Timer Date: 27 Apr 98 - 06:13 PM If someone wants to write this kind of "music", fine- that is their right. However, they do not have the right to impose it upon us against our will. We have a right, as society, to set standards about what is acceptable in a public format. There are times when censorship is not only appropriate, but is our duty. The idea that censorship is simply evil, and is never appropriate, seems to be more and more fashionable with some segments of our culture, especially those who consider themselves as "artists" of one stripe or another. I know there are many of you reading this who consider yourself artists. Rest assured I mean you no disrespect or malice as individuals. The idea that anything goes and nothing is sacred (not in the religious context)really is detrimental to our society. Censorship is not to be taken lightly, but neither is it to be ignored as a viable means of protecting our children from violence, sex and vulgarity. In fact, we practice censorship daily, in all form of the media. Think about it and I bet you can come up with some good examples! My opinion, FWIW Sincerely, OT |
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Subject: RE: Cop Killer IS objectionable From: Earl Date: 27 Apr 98 - 05:55 PM Censorship is censorship. There's no better way to advertise these ideas then to ban them. Lyrics like these generate more indignation then influence. If they are left alone they just disappear. |
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Subject: RE: Cop Killer IS objectionable From: Pete M Date: 27 Apr 98 - 04:27 PM I don't particularly like it, the song that is, but that is no good reason for censorship. As to the intent of the lyrics, whats so different apart from the modern idiom, to ...."across the way they stretch a line to catch the neck and break the spine of the dirty blackleg miner.."? The evidence that police as a group, around the world, target specific ethnic and social populations is well documented; is it surprising then that one such group responds with a "folk song". Pete M |
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Subject: RE: Cop Killer IS objectionable From: aldus Date: 27 Apr 98 - 03:00 PM Yes, it is objectionable and is made even more so by the fact that it is aimed at children.. As for it being musically quite good...the lyrics have the music they deserve. |
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Subject: ADDPOP: Cop Killer From: steve t Date: 27 Apr 98 - 01:58 PM I was startled in the objectionable material thread when Frank in the swamps said Cop Killer didn't deserve the censorship it got. So I looked up the lyrics (posted below). I have absolutely no problem with the prohibition of the sale for profit of songs like this. Who cares if, as Frank states, it's musically quite good. Anyone disagree?
(And as usual, I almost left my name out of the posting -- Is it just me or does everyone have to enter their name in the from: space when starting a new thread?)
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