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Help: Is this a chord or a 'voicing'?
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Subject: Help: Is this a chord or a 'voicing'? From: Áine Date: 05 Jun 02 - 07:54 PM Can't find my chord book, so I'm throwing myself on the mercy of you more educated guitar players. I stumbled upon this chord/voicing while attempting to play my guitar and listen to two of my kids fighting (just in case blood was drawn). The progression I was supposed to play was: C / D9 / C -- What I ended up playing was a C chord, then this:
1st string (high E) - open
So, by my reckoning, the notes in this chord/voicing are: Hopefully, even if I've gotten the notes wrong, someone will tell me what this is or isn't. ;-) Anyway, it sounds great as a passing tone in the line I was playing. Thanks in advance, Áine |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is this a chord or a 'voicing'? From: Rick Fielding Date: 05 Jun 02 - 08:49 PM Aine....I'm a gonna ROCK YER WORLD!! Try to play the F# note on the sixth string (I use my thumb)....you'll be resonant!!! It's a D9th anyway. Cheers Rick |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is this a chord or a 'voicing'? From: Áine Date: 05 Jun 02 - 08:51 PM Well dang, Rick -- I've always wanted to be resonant, don't ya know! ;-) Thanks darlin', Áine |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is this a chord or a 'voicing'? From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 06 Jun 02 - 10:25 AM Actually, any two or more notes you sound at the same time make a chord. It may be one that's not named, and it may be dissonant, but it's a chord, all right. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is this a chord or a 'voicing'? From: GUEST Date: 06 Jun 02 - 10:52 AM Dave (and Aine) You might care to read the What is a Chord? thread If you haven't the inclination to read it all, concentrate on Don Firth's posts. They provide the answers.
html corrected per request by mudelf ;-) |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is this a chord or a 'voicing'? From: Áine Date: 06 Jun 02 - 11:12 AM Thank you, DaveO and Guest. I was in a bit of a hurry when I wrote my first post, and really didn't make myself clear. I know what a chord is; but, what I wanted to know was if the combination of notes I'd happened upon had a name, or whether it was a passing tone/voicing. Rick Fielding seemed to know what I was really asking -- but then, he's a teacher, and probably used to his students phrasing the question the same way I did. The aforementioned chord progression is in a song that I wrote. I've asked someone to record it for me, and I just wanted to be able to tell them what kind of chord change I'd made in the song, without having to be longwinded about it. And I absolutely agree that Don Firth is one of the best folks on the Mudcat! All the best, Áine |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is this a chord or a 'voicing'? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 06 Jun 02 - 12:05 PM If there are just two notes, that's not a chord. According to the people who decide such things, there have to be three notes at least in order to be called a chord. I imagine there's some reason for that, but it's always seemed strange to me.
If there are only two notes it's a Diad, or diadic interval. Of course that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with playing that way. Lots of times Diads work better in an accompaniment, especially in Irish music. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is this a chord or a 'voicing'? From: greg stephens Date: 06 Jun 02 - 12:33 PM Well it sounds good I've just been trying it. I don't think you could legitimately call it a D9,because even though all the notes you're using are in a D9 chord, the crucial F# is missing. It is usual to include the third even if you miss other ones out, to make a 9th chord,as otherwise it is ambiguous(though all the better for it perhaps). This chord of yours could be a D9, but it could equally well be a C6/9,an Fmaj7/6 or an Amsus4. Or possibly some others! to my ears it sounds like a version of an F chord (when played after a C) even though there's no F in it. Which reminds me of an old joke which I wont repeat. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is this a chord or a 'voicing'? From: allanwill Date: 06 Jun 02 - 01:16 PM D7/9? Allan |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is this a chord or a 'voicing'? From: greg stephens Date: 06 Jun 02 - 01:35 PM It's not customary in jazz/pop/folk world to write D7/9 really....D9 is assumed to include the 7th as well. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is this a chord or a 'voicing'? From: Don Firth Date: 06 Jun 02 - 02:02 PM Thanks, folks, for the nice words. For something that looks so simple, it's pretty hard to put a simple name to this. All my attempts come up with half a line of qualifications. It does have the characteristics of a passing chord: a chord that forms a transition between chords. Example:— C to C aug to F (C,E,G,C to C,E,G#,C to C,F,A,C [F in 2nd inversion] (nice progression)). Áine, what key is the song in, and what chords precede and follow the mystery chord? Sometimes the only way you can put a name to a particular sequence or stack of notes is in terms of context. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is this a chord or a 'voicing'? From: GUEST Date: 06 Jun 02 - 02:02 PM Why are you rehashing old ground? If you bother to click on the link that I provided, this and much is covered. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is this a chord or a 'voicing'? From: mousethief Date: 06 Jun 02 - 02:44 PM Looks like a D9 to me, Aine. Sounds wretched though, I bet (I'm at work so I can't try it out just now). Play the 5th string open (A) and it sounds a little friendlier. Alex |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is this a chord or a 'voicing'? From: GUEST Date: 06 Jun 02 - 03:19 PM Sounds wretched though, I bet Alex Given that you know nothing about the context in which the said chord was used, your reply is at minimum [fill in the gap] |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is this a chord or a 'voicing'? From: mousethief Date: 06 Jun 02 - 03:22 PM Given that you're hiding your identity, your reply is at best [fill in the gap] ALex |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is this a chord or a 'voicing'? From: Áine Date: 06 Jun 02 - 03:24 PM Dear Don,
The 'mystery' chord ;-) does occur between two C chords (you are brilliant!). As to the progression, here 'tis, with the 'mystery' chord in bold print (the song is in 4/4 and begins with the chorus, so I've included that, too: There's the whole thing. ;-) -- Áine (P.S. Kevin, this is the song I sent you the other day.) |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is this a chord or a 'voicing'? From: M.Ted Date: 06 Jun 02 - 04:02 PM Rick is probably right, though, as Don Firth pointed out (belatedly), it really is necessary to look at the rest of the piece to figure out what is going on--as it stands, it is an Am with an added 11(not a suspended chord, because the third is there)--it is worth noting that there is a a kind of ornament that was used in baroque music called an acciaccatura, where dissonant notes were sounded with a chord, then released, and, depending on the context, that may be what is going on here-- |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is this a chord or a 'voicing'? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 06 Jun 02 - 04:35 PM Nice tune Áine, (and a lovely song) and the chords go well with it. It's good to have them.
Do other people have this thing where they look at the chords that go with some song, and half of them look weird and unfamiliar. And then when you get into it you find they're just your standard chords, but with a finger lifted or dropped, but this means it gets given some strange and totally unfamiliar name.
I mean, this is in real terms a standard C shape, but with the middle finger pulled over to fret the G string instead of the D string. If it was I wanting "to be able to tell them what kind of chord change I'd made", I'd likely just put an asterisk over the words at the appropriate place, and a diagram in the margin with some label like "modified C chord". (Of course if they aren't playing guitar that might not be that helpful.) |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is this a chord or a 'voicing'? From: Áine Date: 06 Jun 02 - 04:49 PM Thank you, Kevin. ;-) And leave it to you to sum up in a few words something it took me words and charts to say! Do other people have this thing where they look at the chords that go with some song, and half of them look weird and unfamiliar. And then when you get into it you find they're just your standard chords, but with a finger lifted or dropped, but this means it gets given some strange and totally unfamiliar name.
You bet! I experienced this when I first started using TAB. Dear Hubby had to walk me through a cupla songs, and then the light began to dawn . . . although I still get stuck every now and then. So, just slap an asterisk over that word, Kevin, just in case you ever want to sing this one.
And M.Ted -- Could you please tell us how to pronounce acciaccatura? I never had the chance to take Italian in school.
All the best, Áine |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is this a chord or a 'voicing'? From: M.Ted Date: 06 Jun 02 - 05:04 PM A-chak-a-too-ra--- |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is this a chord or a 'voicing'? From: Áine Date: 06 Jun 02 - 05:08 PM Grazi! M.Ted ;-) -- Áine |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is this a chord or a 'voicing'? From: Don Firth Date: 06 Jun 02 - 05:50 PM Okay! Who said "gesundheit"!!??? Yeah, think I've got to agree with MTed. Am (in first inversion) with an added 11th. It's one of those chord voicings where you would have to be pretty specific when explaining it to someone if they were to duplicate the sound. The 11th is an octave below where one normally expects to find an 11th, and if played toward the top, it just isn't the same sound. Actually, MTed's identifying it as an acciaccatura is most acute. First inversion Am with the D as an acciaccatura gets my vote. That's a nice, lush set of chords, Áine, and it works well. Schlepping back and forth between a root position majors and root position relative minors is nice, but it can get a bit cloying. Doing the first inversion Am and adding the D acciaccatura to give it a drop of lemon juice sounds good! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is this a chord or a 'voicing'? From: Áine Date: 06 Jun 02 - 06:07 PM Thank you, Don! I have to admit that this song was one of the first ones I wrote after picking up the guitar again after a 15 year hiatus. It started out with a very complicated progression in the verses; very difficult to play (even for Dear Hubby, who is very, very good) and almost impossible to sing along with. So, I've let it sit on the back burner and I've tinkered with it from time to time, never really satisfied. I've changed the chords, the lyrics, the tempo. Now I think I've got a pretty decent little song, and what happens? Serendipity jumps in and plops this little acciaccatura in my lap! I think it's 'soup' now, and I'll be playing it without making a face from now on.
It's little things like this that make playing the guitar so much fun, don't you think? Mmmmmm, I wonder if this means that my Muse is Italian?
All the best and thanks to you all, Áine |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is this a chord or a 'voicing'? From: Amos Date: 06 Jun 02 - 06:19 PM Well, just to throw in my two bits, it really, really works well in the song she's speaking of, which is a genuine tearjerker in the best Texas acciaccatura tradition! She's got everything she needs -- she's an artist! A |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is this a chord or a 'voicing'? From: Áine Date: 06 Jun 02 - 06:28 PM Tearjerker??? Geez, Amos, you're a big girl's blouse, ain't ya?!? ;-) You've just completely blown my street cred, ya buggah! Really, it's not that schmaltzy, I promise guys, really. It's about letting go of your children when they grow up -- I wrote it for my oldest son when he left home for university. For sure it ain't rock and roll; but, my son likes to hear Mom sing it when he comes home to visit. ;-) -- Áine |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is this a chord or a 'voicing'? From: Amos Date: 06 Jun 02 - 06:41 PM A big girl's blouse? Meaning that I am full of curves? Enticing to half the world's population? An irresistible walking advertisement for promises undleivered? A joy to behold? A double handful? Overstuffed with potential delight? A potential feeding container for juveniles? Deserving to be ripped off? Busting at the seams? A religious experience at first sight?? I'm sorry, I just can't puzzle this one out!! What do you REALLY mean?? LOL!!! A |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is this a chord or a 'voicing'? From: Áine Date: 06 Jun 02 - 07:04 PM Dear Amos -- All of the above, and then some! -- Áine |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is this a chord or a 'voicing'? From: Dear Hubby Date: 06 Jun 02 - 09:04 PM Yuz guys betta keepa ya hands off my wife's acciaccatura. Or else! Dear Hubby |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is this a chord or a 'voicing'? From: Dear Hubby Date: 06 Jun 02 - 09:13 PM Oh by the way, since my Dear One has praised my playing to the moon (a strong bias to be sure) I have to say that this piece sounds really nice (no brag, just fact). I've heard it develop over time and the latest changes have really made it gell. - Dear Hubby |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is this a chord or a 'voicing'? From: Lynn Date: 07 Jun 02 - 10:57 AM Has anyone addressed the actual question here? I may be wrong (my ex-wife thought I was...frequently), but I think this is a question of definition, too. A chord is any combination of two or more tones, usually in thirds, e.g. C E G making a nice C chord. How you arrange those pitches consititutes the 'voicing'. The simplist C chord voicing on guitar is your standard C formation, in which the tones (in ascending order) are C, E, G, C and E (without playing the low E string). Play an E chord formation under the barre on the 8th fret, and you still have a C chord, but in a different voicing - C, G, C, E, G, C. Same chord, different sound. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is this a chord or a 'voicing'? From: Rick Fielding Date: 07 Jun 02 - 11:14 AM One of the things that has kept me fascinated with the guitar for so many years is "the order of the notes". I suspect that if I'd stuck with the 'book' chords, I'd have long ago lost interest, but it seems there's always something new to discover. Here's a simple little "Lennie Breau Chord" that I've just discovered (by way of a Marcel Dadi video) Barre four high strings at the third fret with index finger. Use middle and ring fingers to fret the third and second strings at the fourth fret. Fret the sixth string with thumb at the third fret (and let it touch the fifth string just a tad, thus deadening it. Strum all six. Nice augmented sound. You can get some great variations by messing around with the pinky on the first string. I use it to lead into a nice C6th. (ring finger barres 4 high strings on fifth fret. Thumb catches 6th and 5th strings at third fret. You need a reasonably narrow neck to do this, though. Merle Travis used this one a lot (and Lenny listened to a LOT of Merle) Cheers Rick |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is this a chord or a 'voicing'? From: M.Ted Date: 07 Jun 02 - 12:24 PM Why not just play the G7aug like this: 3-X-3-4-4-X? Here's a nice little ending you can use--G13(3-X-3-4-5-X) G7aug(3-X-3-4-4-X)G7b9(4-X-3-4-3-X) and, if you must, that fat-bottomed C6 you listed above-- |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is this a chord or a 'voicing'? From: GUEST,Lynn [not a guest; different computer] Date: 07 Jun 02 - 12:34 PM Rick - yeah- a narrow neck and paws for hands! More power to you, friend. I could never do stretches like that! [gently massaging his aching left hand] Lynn |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is this a chord or a 'voicing'? From: Bullfrog Jones Date: 07 Jun 02 - 01:03 PM Lynn I agree -- and I've got big paws. Instead of barre-ing try using the index and middle fingers to take care of the fourth and first strings and the ring and little on the second & third strings, using the thumb as Rick suggested. BJ |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is this a chord or a 'voicing'? From: Justa Picker Date: 07 Jun 02 - 01:09 PM Very simplified definition of the semantical difference between a chord and a voicing: Chord: 3 different notes played together. (If they harmonize with each other in a pleasing-to-the-ears way, it's a harmonic sounding chord. Could be a C chord contain the notes C, E and G. If they don't harmonize but rather create some sort of tension for the listener than it would a dissonant chord.) Voicing: Fancy word for "placement" or "position" of said chord in any other spot on the neck, other than the root position. If the notes C, E and G (of a root position chord) are played in a different inversion (inversion being "different combination of the same notes" from the root order of the notes - such as G, C, E ) then in order to make a C chord sound out in this order - with whatever high note you want to sound out - in this case the E note of the chord - then the position you'd have to play this particular chord structure (or inversion) on the neck to achieve this differentiated sound from a root position C chord, is often termed a "voicing" or, an "inversion." Voicings may be used to harmonize and provide an alternative and complimentary way of accompanying or creating a counter point harmony to the melody, and alternatively, to also provide tension and relief in the context of a song or arrangement. It's a matter of interpretation and one's own creativity as to how voicings and their placements are determined for a given song. One of the best pieces of advice I ever received with respect to guitar playing (and you know who you are *g*) is to learn the ability to play each and every chord, in at least 3 different positions on the neck. That one piece of advice was worth the cost of 5 lessons. Once you know those 3 different spots, it's fun to even fun a couple more! You can never be versatile enough. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is this a chord or a 'voicing'? From: mousethief Date: 07 Jun 02 - 01:11 PM Is "voicing" like "inversion" then? Alex |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is this a chord or a 'voicing'? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Jun 02 - 01:40 PM I find it easier doing that augmented chord of Rick the way Bullfrog mentions there - and when you've got it, it's easier to move it around, and play the shape up and down the neck. (But of course you don't have the little finger free, the way that Rick's fingering permits.)
Any idea why it is the official definitions always seem to insist on a chord being three or more notes, rather than two or more? It seems a bit arbitrary - and in fact guitarists do tend to describe any fingering of multiple strings as a chord. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is this a chord or a 'voicing'? From: Justa Picker Date: 07 Jun 02 - 02:17 PM A voicing and an inversion are one and the same as I have always understood it. i.e. You're listening to a tune and focussing in on the guitar player's part. Your comment might be "I liked the way he voiced that Bb9 chord".... or "I liked the inversion he used on that Bb9 chord." It's just 2 synonymous ways of referring to them, Alex. (Semantics and Pedantics. *g*) |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is this a chord or a 'voicing'? From: mousethief Date: 07 Jun 02 - 02:42 PM McG -- that's from classical music theory. Two notes are an interval; three are a chord. It's just how the word was originally defined. Alex |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is this a chord or a 'voicing'? From: M.Ted Date: 07 Jun 02 - 03:44 PM There are only two possible inversions of a triad--With the fundamental on top--E-G-C, (the 6-3) or with the 3rd on top-G-C-E(the 6-4)-- but "voicing"refers to the whole picture, that is, all the notes that are sounded, and all of the instruments(or strings) that they are sounded on--Technically, guitar "chords" or "fingerings" are best considered "voicings", because they include more than simply the triad or its inversions---
Here is the C-E-G triad:
7-6-5-X-X-X Here is the first inversion:
12-10-10-X-X-X
3-3-2-X-X-X These are the text book basics, and guitar players nearly never use them--they nearly always duplicate some of the notes, and often leave others out.H ere is the C fingering that you folk guitar players thing of as a "full" C instead of a "baby" C:
3-3-2--0-1-0 It actually contains all three inversions, depending on which strings you hit, and when-- |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is this a chord or a 'voicing'? From: Rick Fielding Date: 08 Jun 02 - 11:22 AM Yes indeed, there are several ways of playing that augmented. I'm pretty used to doing a lot of these with my thumb...but that's because of who I listened to mostly when I was getting into it. My mother would have much preferred I play like Barney Kessel, Tal Farlow or her personal fave, Buddy Fyte, but it was East Coast bluesmen who really got me going....and they ALL seemed to play with their thumbs. The other thing I liked about that style was that it made for unusual sounds. When I clicked into Merle and Chet, I heard stuff that simply couldn't be done WITHOUT the thumb. I've got small to average hands, and I realized that the angle used to get some of these 'finger busters' was constantly changing.....but the important thing was a fairly slim neck. If I'm playing a classical or wider (or thicker) neck, I use barre chords for ninety percent of it, and my style changes significantly. I should actually mention that it was Justa's Marcel Dadi video where I first saw the chord (the G aug with variations) played. Later on my friend Tony Quarrington remarked that it was a Lenny Breau staple. Lenny used thumb and barre positions both......and may still be the best picker I ever saw or heard. Cheers Rick |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is this a chord or a 'voicing'? From: M.Ted Date: 08 Jun 02 - 12:28 PM Just re-read JP's post, and realized that I hadn't really read it very well, and ended up saying justa bout the same thing--oh, well, it was good practice writing it out--Rick, you get the prize for offhandedly mentioning the most great guitarists in a single post--so much more subtle than posting a list, like so many of these yahoos do-- |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is this a chord or a 'voicing'? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 08 Jun 02 - 02:59 PM I've got smallish hands., but seem to find using the thumb is pretty easy. The difficulty for me comes in getting a clean sound on the first string with a short barre. Hands vary. |
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