Early Atlantic crossings West-East

Subject: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: greg stephens
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 08:26 AM

I am an avid reader of books about Irish monks sailing to America a 1000 years before Columbus, Picts turning up in Nova Scotia, Kon-Tiki rafts taking South Americans to Polynesia, Egyptians heading for Mexico in papyrus boats etc etc. But I've just realised I've never heard of any legends of early crossings by Americans to Europe or Africa. Can anybody add anything to this topic?

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: MMario
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 08:52 AM

The only places I've seen anything on "new" world to "old" crossings are in SF dealing with alternate realities.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: GUEST,Foe
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 08:58 AM

Read books by Frederick Pohl. (not the Sci-Fi writer, another one) He researched early Euro contact with N. America. I think he did pin-point the Viking Vinland as Folins Pond on Cape Cod in Mass. He found a ships shoring where a two pointed boat (Viking type) was drawn up on shore (stakes on rocks to support the keel and post molds) and mooring holes in rocks in the pond. Viking descriptions of the landscape fits. The area is now a housing development. No mention of other direction, west to east, but most agree there was extensive fishing off the N. Amer coast for hundreds of years before Columbus.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Pied Piper
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 12:07 PM

I think I once read that a snall boat containing some south american indians was found of the coast of Irland. I think they died shortly after. Or maybe I drempt it? All the best PP

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 12:38 PM

It can be done by raft though - here's a link to information about Son of Town Hall, which made the first recorded West-East crossing a couple of years ago. With a crew of beat-up musicians, wouldn't you know.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 03:47 PM

I think it's more likely the other way, what with currents and all. Early American seafarers went to Egypt, we do know, and to the islands out in the Pacific. Usually, if you want to sail the Atlantic without power, you go from Europe/Africa to the American shores.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: MMario
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 03:56 PM

Early American seafarers went to Egypt, ???

Did you possibly mean the other way round?

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: greg stephens
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 03:58 PM

Early Americans to Egypt is exactly what Id be interested in, Mrrzy. When was that? I'd been thinking that prevailing winds and currents work against it, but it wouldnt have been impossiblewould it ? There must be some legends surely.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Gareth
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 04:05 PM

Funny init - Prevailing winds and currents make it easier to sail the North Atlantic from North America to Europe, but mast recorded stories are about the crossings the otherway round. Mmmmh ! were the ledgends of Madoc and the Children of Hamelin ledgends ?

Gareth

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: GUEST,Hal
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 04:54 AM

There seems to be some truth in the Atlantis account

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 05:20 AM

I moved the thread to the non-music section because it's not really about music. But then that made me wonder. As far as I know, there's only one song about pre-Columbian voyages to the Americas, Jimmy Driftwood's St. Brendan's Fair Isle. And this thread is asking about crossings from west to east. Is there a song about Pocahantas? She went from west to east. Well, so did Lindbergh, but not very early.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 05:26 AM

St Brendan is said to have sailed from the Dingle Peninsula in South West Ireland to America sometime in the 6th century.

Adventurer Tim Severin recreated the voyage in 1976/77 and wrote a fascinating book The Brendan Voyage published in 1978.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Iains
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 05:29 AM

There is a recorded event of Inuit reaching Kirkwall Scotland


https://drmarkjardine.wordpress.com/2015/07/26/the-inuit-discovery-of-scotland-in-1682/

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 05:31 AM

Perhaps I should point out that St Brendan returned and therefore must have crossed West to East !!

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: banjoman
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 05:31 AM

Was it St. Brendan who made the crossing in a Leather Boat?

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 08:36 AM

There is no "Evidence" at all that St Brendan crossed the Atlantic.

Tim Severin's voyage only proved that such a craft as HE built could survive the crossing.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 08:41 AM

Try reading my post again Teri-towelling. I wrote St Brendan is SAID to have to have sailed from the Dingle peninsula ..........

Note the use of the word SAID.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Iains
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 08:59 AM

South American drugs in Egyptian mummies is a fruitful field.

http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~legneref/ethnic/mummy.htm

Also Charles Hapgood "Maps of the Ancient sea kings" raises a host of questions not adequately addressed by archeology.

among other things: Ancient Maps of pre ice Anarctica(only surveyed during the Int Geophysical year 1957?)
                     Portolans showing accurate maps of south america pre columbus.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 09:06 AM

ice age hunting excursions across the atlantic.. ice flow hopping by canoe and foot...???

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Iains
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 09:13 AM

PFR that would probably have been lean pickings with lashings of frostbite.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Iains
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 09:41 AM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Columbian_trans-oceanic_contact_theories

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 01:06 PM

All very well Raggy - but you then stated the following:

Raggytash - 31 Aug 17 - 05:31 AM

Perhaps I should point out that St Brendan returned and therefore must have crossed West to East !!

No "evidence" at all that he crossed the Atlantic - Still remains true.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 02:37 PM

Well then Teri-towelling you're trying once again to make a bollocks of a thread.

Sad, sad little man.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 03:13 PM

There was a TV documentary positing the possibility of ice age ice flow hops some years ago... [bound to have been at least one expert]
I guess they would have dressed up warm in their best seal skins and thermal otter undies...???

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Iains
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 03:18 PM

PFR it was Bear Grylls and Ray Mears, but I bet neither were wearing shorts!

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 03:21 PM

Really Raggy? Please explain in what way am I "trying once again to make a bollocks of a thread"

People are commenting on an early Atlantic crossing (That you, incidentally, obviously believe happened) as being fact when there is no evidence at all that it ever happened. How does pointing that out "make a bollocks" of the thread?

So far YOU have been the only person being argumentative. You are the only person who has found the need to resort to swearing on this subject. You are the only person to resort to personal insult.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 03:46 PM

You WERE definitely contradictory Mr T....that is Not Allowed on this forum :0)

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 04:04 PM

I really don't want this thread to descend into a "I said/he said" debacle.

I posted that it was SAID that St Brendan sailed to America. I care not one iota where he did or he didn't but it was SAID that he did.

In your seemingly pathological dislike for me, and anything I post, you weighed in to say there is no "evidence" at all that St Brendan crossed the Atlantic.

Many years after the event the Martyrology of Tallaght mentions him as a seafarer. Who knows.

I know not (and neither do you) whether or not such a voyage took place, and in truth I don't really care.

However I do like the story and thoroughly enjoyed Tim Severin's book about his voyage.

In posting to this thread I did so in response to the OP which asked "Can anybody add anything to this topic?"

I think I have added a little ......... and your contribution?

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 03:23 AM

Here is my first post to this thread:

Teribus - PM
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 08:36 AM

There is no "Evidence" at all that St Brendan crossed the Atlantic.

Tim Severin's voyage only proved that such a craft as HE built could survive the crossing.

Four of the five immediately preceding posts mentioned the Brendan Voyage, two of those four were yours Raggy. Now where in that post of mine do I refer to you? Simple truth is I don't. What I have done is challenge the information presented in those four previous posts.

On the subject of likes and dislikes though, seeing as how YOU have brought the subject up. What I do really dislike is you, and your pals, persistent joint mobbing and bullying of Keith A on this forum which has been ongoing now for over five years. Like all bullies it would appear from your bleats on various threads where your words and points of view have been challenged that you lot, as a group, are perfectly willing to dish it out, but squeal like stuck pigs if anyone has a go at you (From my post quoted above it is patently obvious that I haven't done that - but yet you still squeal - Those who deliberately look for "offence" will find it even when there is none - You Raggy seem to fit into that category).

My contribution to the thread so far? - I have pointed out the facts in relation to something introduced into the discussion.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 03:49 AM

Whatever Teri-towelling, your "contribution" was in the negative:

"There is no "Evidence" at all that St Brendan crossed the Atlantic"

The liklihood is that no-one will ever know whether or not St Brendan crossed the Atlantic. Later Christian writings suggest he did so, but they may well be biased.

Writings such as "Vita Brendani I Betha Brenainn" and "Navigatio Sancti Brendani Abbatis" support the proposition. There are over 100 manuscripts across Europe which tell the story, manuscripts such as the Dutch "De Reis Van Sinte Brandean".

What we do know is that St Brendan was known as Brendan the Navigator, Brendan the Voyager and Brendan the Bold.

Short of finding archaeological evidence, we will have to ponder that he may have dome so. we know,thanks to Tim Severin that it is possible, but whether St Brendan achieved it we will probably never know.

But hey, it's a good story.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 04:08 AM

Teribus, Mudcat is a folk music forum. We deal in folklore. For us, St. Brendan's voyage is a "given," whether it's factual or not.
So, drop it, and enjoy the story.
ALL pre-Columban Atlantic voyages are the stuff of folklore, and yet they can be very interesting to study.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 04:16 AM

Odd isn't it that others who did make the journey left archaeological traces of their having passed that way. St. Brendan and his pals did not.

The writings you refer to were written how long AFTER the event?

"There is very little secure information concerning Brendan's life, although at least the approximate dates of his birth and death, and accounts of some events in his life, are found in the Irish annals and genealogies. The first mention of Brendan occurs in Adamnan's Vita Sancti Columbae, written between 679 and 704 [That is 100 years AFTER his death]. The first notice of him as a seafarer appears in the ninth-century Martyrology of Tallaght.

The principal works devoted to the saint and his legend are a 'Life of Brendan' in several Latin and Irish versions (Vita Brendani / Betha Brenainn) and the better known 'Voyage of Saint Brendan the Abbot' (Navigatio sancti Brendani abbatis).

Unfortunately, the Lives and the Voyage provide little reliable information about his life and travels; they do, however, attest to the development of his following in the centuries after his death. An additional problem is that the precise relationship between the Vita and the Navigatio traditions is uncertain.

Just when the Vita tradition began is uncertain. The surviving copies date no earlier than the end of the twelfth century, but scholars suggest that a version of the Life was composed before the year 1000 [ That is almost 500 years after his death]. The Navigatio was probably written earlier than the Vita, perhaps in the second half of the eighth century [ 200 years after his death]. St Aengus the Culdee, in his Litany composed at the close of the eighth century, invokes "the sixty who accompanied St. Brendan in his quest for the Land of Promise".

A Curragh that could carry 60 men along with their provisions eh Raggy? How many did Tim Severin take with him? Troublle with believing old stories and myths is that if you believe any of it you have to give equal credence to it all.

I still stand by my original statement:

"There is no "Evidence" at all that St Brendan crossed the Atlantic"

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 04:18 AM

Tell me again Joe - Why is this thread appearing BELOW the line if it has as you say to do with folklore?

---

Get a life, Teribus. -Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 04:25 AM

I have not disputed "there is no evidence" if you care to read my post.

I clearly stated that the accounts of the voyage were written years after the event, in case you missed it I said "Later Christian writings suggest he did so, but they may well be biased"

"Odd isn't it that others who did make the journey left archaeological traces of their having passed that way. St. Brendan and his pals did not"

None that we know of, the Eastern seaboard of North America is huge, evidence could have been destroyed by later settlers ......... who knows.

As for 60 men ......... let's see ......... more than one boat perhaps.

But like I said Hey it's a good story.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 05:25 AM

Inuit boat technology hadn't changed for centuries before that guy showed up in Orkney in 1682. And there are places closer than that if you're starting from Greenland. Surely others did it; it's a shorter hop than Central Polynesia to New Zealand and unlike that one, you're sailing into better weather as you go. But one lost seal hunter isn't going to leave much historic record.

On the other hand: the Greenlanders are the most sexually promiscuous culture on earth. Maybe one of them dropped their genes in Lewis or Lofoten.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Mr Red
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 07:08 AM

Archeologists have found cocaine in Pharoah mummies' bindings.

And that only came from South America. They think. Which would constitute some sort of evedence. Unless the Silk Road extended across the Bering Strait and all the way down past Panama. But I would guess even 5/6000 years ago the land bridge had melted.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 07:59 AM

"I have not disputed "there is no evidence" if you care to read my post."

Who said you did Raggy - certainly not me.

But as you did post the following:

Raggytash - 31 Aug 17 - 05:31 AM

Perhaps I should point out that St Brendan returned and therefore must have crossed West to East !!

You obviously believe the "yarn" that is based on no actual "evidence". It is also unusual to claim "Christian writings" to be so infallible and credible being one of a gang who seems to despise religion and all it's trappings.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 08:17 AM

Piss of Teri, you only come here so you can be belligerent, you've spoiled enough threads with your bile and bitterness.

Someone posted a simple question: I am an avid reader of books about Irish monks sailing to America a 1000 years before Columbus, Picts turning up in Nova Scotia, Kon-Tiki rafts taking South Americans to Polynesia, Egyptians heading for Mexico in papyrus boats etc etc. But I've just realised I've never heard of any legends of early crossings by Americans to Europe or Africa. Can anybody add anything to this topic?

Like I said it's a good story, not one you've ever read I should think, ever read Tim Severins' book? ..... probably not.

I care not one iota if it is true or not, it's a good yarn.

In the meantime try signing up for an anger management course.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Stu
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 08:53 AM

The vikings went there and back as well. Did I read somewhere that they might have got as far south as Florida?

Of course, the Australian Aborigines crossed to that continent 60,000 years ago.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 10:12 AM

"Picts turning up in Nova Scotia"??

Really, when??

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 10:28 AM

Teribus - blimey.. next you'll be demanding proof that even dragons and unicorns ever existed before Noah sailed away into the history books...!!! 🙄

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 11:03 AM

Why would I do that now pfr? Has anyone claimed that they exist? I do however, expect anyone who declares themselves as "an avid reader of books" related to any subject to at least have, through that reading, at least the tiniest vestige of knowledge on the subject matter.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 11:11 AM

Crossing from N. America to the east was an infrequent possibility because the new world was an inhospitable and sparsely populated place.
The reasons could be asteroid impacts in the Hudson bay area and Chesapeake compounded by great floods from the many ice ages. From the west the impact of mega eruptions at Yosemite could have proved deadly all the way to the coast. There may have been no Gulf stream for navigation assistance in those times of antiquity.

Central America was a far friendlier and populated place. There is evidence from the six foot tall carved stone spheres of faces showing every race on earth and is attributed to be from the Olmec civilization pre dating the Aztec and Inca.

It is not obvious exactly who the sailing societies were.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Stu
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 12:06 PM

Incoherent.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 01:53 PM

We are talking about a period much less than a thousand years ago.
Climate and currents have not changed and super-volcanic eruptions and glaciation are not relevant.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 02:02 PM

Keith - well.. I'm talking about the ice age;
Greg the OP doesn't seem too fussy about a specific time period or era for discussing "early crossings",
and anyone else can talk about any time they consider relevant...

So who's this 'We' determining who can or cannot talk about what they think might be an interesting contribution to a broadly engaging topic...???

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 02:15 PM

Jack suggests an interesting point - the Inuit seem to have circled the earth, mostly above the Arctic Circle.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 02:48 AM

"So who's this 'We' determining who can or cannot talk about what they think might be an interesting contribution to a broadly engaging topic...???

To answer your question pfr, the "We" would appear to be Joe Offer and Raggy.

Something else you may not wish to hear Joe - "the Inuit seem to have circled the earth, mostly above the Arctic Circle." - the only place on earth where you can "circle the earth" by running a line of latitude is at the equator - Run any line of longitude on the other hand, or run any "great circle route" and you really do circle the earth. So the Inuit "seem" to have done no such thing.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 02:57 AM

Ice age Frenchies may have discovered America...???

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ice+age+french+journey+to+america&spell=1&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjPprjL9YXWAhUWM8AKHehdCiQQvwUIJSgA&b


take yer pick of top google links...

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Stu
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 03:41 AM

"So the Inuit "seem" to have done no such thing."

I bet you're fun at parties.